VF-11's missiles

[shoopdawhoop]

anyone knows where the missiles are stored?

I had saw plenty pictures of it in fighter mode,but i dont see any missiles attached on its wing.

Are they stored internally like the V/YF-19?

and is there a website or video showcasing a detail transformation of it from fighter to battleroid mode?

I know there is a video of YF-19 in youtube,wondering if the same exist for the VF-11 ?

[Nied]

The VF-11 stores its missiles inside the forward section of its FAST pack boosters. It hasn't been shown in an anime but according to the Macross Compendium it has underwing hardpoints to carry missiles as well. Here's a good rundown of how the VF-11 transforms:

[sketchley]

Pg 120 of Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works has a rough drawing of the internal weapon bay of the VF-11C.

Pg 78 of the same book has a rough of a VF-11B with a single "stealth pod" mounted on each wing. It is possible that these eventually developed into what I consider the 'aerodynamic UUM-7' missile pods as seen on the cover of the "This is Animation Special Macross Plus" book, in front of the YF-19.

[Lonewolf]

Pg 120 of Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works has a rough drawing of the internal weapon bay of the VF-11C.

Pg 78 of the same book has a rough of a VF-11B with a single "stealth pod" mounted on each wing. It is possible that these eventually developed into what I consider the 'aerodynamic UUM-7' missile pods as seen on the cover of the "This is Animation Special Macross Plus" book, in front of the YF-19.

Well if memory serves right, the internal jeg missile bays on the vf-11c are not cannon. Kawamori-san once said that these were early concepts and that the cannon vf-11 had no internal missile bays in the legs.

[azrael]

Well if memory serves right, the internal jeg missile bays on the vf-11c are not cannon. Kawamori-san once said that these were early concepts and that the cannon vf-11 had no internal missile bays in the legs.

That is correct. The VF-11A thru D do not have internal weapons bays. The ones seen in the Design Works is a draft image, which was never suppose to be seen in M7. However, the VF-11MAXL does have internal weapons bays.

[lechuck]

Huh, I'm currently watching M7 and watched Ep 43 yesterday. Around 3:08 min

you can clearly see a missile/reaction weapon being loaded into the VF-11s leg.

Please Explain?

[valk1j]

Huh, I'm currently watching M7 and watched Ep 43 yesterday. Around 3:08 min

you can clearly see a missile/reaction weapon being loaded into the VF-11s leg.

Please Explain?

Not supposed to be there. The animators used an early draft for the VF-11.

See the Macross Compendium

What I don't understand is why the VF-11 is so downgraded on weapons without using FAST packs. Only a gunpod and anti-aircraft laser without an attachment. The VF-5000 has internal micro launchers and comes before the VF-11 in chronology. The compendium doesn't even list wing hardpoints. I love this valkyrie but it needs something more.

Edited February 28, 2007 by valk1j

[azrael]

Huh, I'm currently watching M7 and watched Ep 43 yesterday. Around 3:08 min

you can clearly see a missile/reaction weapon being loaded into the VF-11s leg.

Please Explain?

http://macross.anime.net/feedback/index.html

From the Compendium, back in April 2003:

Q: On the Compendium listing, it makes no mention of the VF-11 Thunderbolt's internal missile launcher mounted in the leg. I'm not sure which episode that was taken from, although I think it was from Operation Stargazer. Is it an animation error, or does the VF-11 really have missile pallets inside its legs, much like the Y/VF-19?

A: Leg weapon bays are not part of the published official specifications for the standard VF-11 Thunderbolt. According to Shoji Kawamori's design works notes, the animators in a Macross 7 episode used a draft design of his that was not originally drawn for use in the series. (Shoji Kawamori did make leg weapon bays part of the official specifications for the VF-11MAXL variant, as well as the General Galaxy VF-17 Nightmare and Shinsei Industry VF-19 Excalibur.)

What I don't understand is why the VF-11 is so downgraded on weapons without using FAST packs. Only a gunpod and anti-aircraft laser without an attachment. The VF-5000 has internal micro launchers and comes before the VF-11 in chronology.

I suspect that while the VF-5000 has more internal weapons, it's capabilities and versatility is not quite as good as the VF-11.

[Penguin]

Not supposed to be there. The animators used an early draft for the VF-11.

See the Macross Compendium

What I don't understand is why the VF-11 is so downgraded on weapons without using FAST packs. Only a gunpod and anti-aircraft laser without an attachment. The VF-5000 has internal micro launchers and comes before the VF-11 in chronology. The compendium doesn't even list wing hardpoints. I love this valkyrie but it needs something more.

I always figured the UN Spacy was becoming more focussed on space-borne threats, and thus did not envision the VF-11 operating in an atmosphere often. Having a simple VF with add-on weapons is probably cheaper to produce and maintain than a plane with lots of integral weaponry. Colony worlds seem to have their own defence forces, usually with older VFs that have better in-atmosphere weapons payloads.

That being said, why bother with a canard then? Atmospheric agility is improved, but the plane itself isn't sufficiently armed for any real combat in an atmosphere. Seems kinda shortsighted. Design by committee strikes again? The canard's performance is superior, but then someone cuts cost afterward by vetoing internal missile payloads?

[Mr March]

I remember this one. There was a big debate on Macross World years ago about these missile ports in the series. That's probably why Egan included the official word on the Macross Compendium to help solve the debate

[s001]

Anyway if you really see the lineart... there's not much space for engine, landing gear and missiles together.

Maybe in the yf-19's legs but in the vf-11's I don't think so.

[sketchley]

Apparently with progress, the thermonuclear engines of VFs have been reduced in size enough to fit in weapons pallets or bays in the engine nacelles of all VFs from the 2030's onwards. The VF-22, VF-19, YF-19, VF-17, Fz-109, Az-130 and VF-11 MAXL Kai all have them. One could even say that the (non-canon? your opinion) VF-11, VF-5000 and VF-4 have the extra space too (VF-4 has conformally mounted munitions - definitely taking space, just not a lot of it.)

[David Hingtgen]

Possibility:

The VF-11 was primarily designed for anti-rogue-Zentradi ops, like we see in the beginning of M+. Thus the bayonet and rapid-reload gunpod---it's optimized for close-range, hand-to-hand, etc. Not zillions of missiles against zillions of other planes, Regults, etc.

Later, when the need for missiles reappears, we get the VF-11C, which much like the F-15E almost always has FAST packs attached, and are pretty much required for its missions.

[Zinjo]

That is correct. The VF-11A thru D do not have internal weapons bays. The ones seen in the Design Works is a draft image, which was never suppose to be seen in M7. However, the VF-11MAXL does have internal weapons bays.

As well as speaker boobs and a smile...

[Mr March]

I think the VF-11 forgoes a lot of missiles because in the military climate of the 230s and 2040s, perhaps it wasn't necessary. The VF-11 also has a very large ammunition payload. FIrst, it's armed with a 35 mm gun as opposed to a 55 mm gun, meaning the cannon can most likely carry more ammunition on it's own. Then the VF-11 features two more field-replacable magazines. It's gotta have at least triple or more ammunition than the old VF-1 fighters. Plus the VF-11 has stronger defensive options than earlier variable fighters, with the addition of the anti-projectile shield.

[Valkyrie addict]

so...the VF-11 will carry most of it's payload with addons??

in Macross 7, the VF's are using FAST packs, I thought they could only be used in space?? that's why they always jettisoned their packs on the other Macross series....hhhhhhhmm.... ?¿?

[sketchley]

It depends on the FAST pack used. Essentially, every FAST pack seen from about the halfway point of Macross 7 onwards (including Dynamite, and Zero,) are transatmospheric. Some of them include scram jets (or is it ram jets?) instead of rocket motors.

Specifically for the VF-11, the SES FAST packs introduced with the VF-11 Kai are the only ones that are transatmospheric and able to work equally in atmospheres and space, and not needing to be ejected.

[Graham]

One theory that I've held for a long time is that by the 2040 to 2045 period (Mac Plus through Mac 7) the performance of VFs (speed, acceleration & manuverability) has improved to the point that missiles are simply just not that effective anymore and more emphasis is placed on gunpods and beam weapons as the primary form of armament.

The seeming inaffectiveness of missiles is shown in the animation over and over again. In the opening of Mac Plus we see Isamu in his VF-11B easily dodge and outrun missiles from the Renegade Powered Armor. Also telling is that none of the VF-11B in the opening fight even bother to launch micro-missiles and instead rely on their gunpods. Later on, neither Guld or Isamu manage to score any hits on each other with missiles from their respective YF-21 & YF-19. And of couse there's Guld showing the true ability of the YF-21 by dodging all the high manuever missiles.

In Macross 7, we see a very low hit rate from missiles fired by the VF-11Bs and VF-17D/Ss and much more reliance on gunpods and inbuilt beam weapons (VF-17) throughout the entire series. Gamlin does exceptionally well with his gunpod whether flying his VF-17 or a borrowed VF-11C (ep # 7).

The design of later VFs seems to support the theory that missiles are becoming less important, with the VF-17, VF-19 & VF-21 all sporting more gunpods (or more spare magazines) & beam weapons than older generation Valks and fewer missiles.

Graham

[azrael]

One theory that I've held for a long time is ...*snip*

Graham.. in M+, they were using VF-11Bs. In M7, they were using VF-11Cs.

[Zinjo]

One theory that I've held for a long time is that by the 2040 to 2045 period (Mac Plus through Mac 7) the performance of VFs (speed, acceleration & manuverability) has improved to the point that missiles are simply just not that effective anymore and more emphasis is placed on gunpods and beam weapons as the primary form of armament.

The seeming inaffectiveness of missiles is shown in the animation over and over again. In the opening of Mac Plus we see Isamu in his VF-11B easily dodge and outrun missiles from the Renegade Powered Armor. Also telling is that none of the VF-11B in the opening fight even bother to launch micro-missiles and instead rely on their gunpods. Later on, neither Guld or Isamu manage to score any hits on each other with missiles from their respective YF-21 & YF-19. And of couse there's Guld showing the true ability of the YF-21 by dodging all the high manuever missiles.

In Macross 7, we see a very low hit rate from missiles fired by the VF-11Bs and VF-17D/Ss and much more reliance on gunpods and inbuilt beam weapons (VF-17) throughout the entire series. Gamlin does exceptionally well with his gunpod whether flying his VF-17 or a borrowed VF-11C (ep # 7).

The design of later VFs seems to support the theory that missiles are becoming less important, with the VF-17, VF-19 & VF-21 all sporting more gunpods (or more spare magazines) & beam weapons than older generation Valks and fewer missiles.

Graham

Well the effectiveness of the missiles can be a direct result of the inclusion of pinpoint barriers on the new variable fighters, in the case of the older models like the VF-11 this would not be the case.

I think is was more dramatic license that made them ineffectual in the series' more so than fighter maneuverability.

In space any course correction verniers on the missiles would be MORE effective in tracking their targets as opposed to the limitations they would have in an atmosphere.

The only other possibility would be improved ECM and targeting jammers that would affect the missiles' course.

When one compares how agile a 40+meter long fighter would be compared to a 1/2 to 1 meter long missile, the missile will almost always win out, all things being equal.

[Graham]

M+ & M7 era VFs have such powerful engines with an insanly high thrust-to-weight ratios that I think technology has gotten to the point where the VFs thermonuclear engines are superior to the rocket engines of missiles.

Unlike today, where contemporary missiles have an edge in max speed, acceleration and number of gs they can pull, I think by the 2040s or earlier the advantage has shifted to the VFs at least in terms of raw speed and acceleration.

It seems that in Mac Plus and Mac 7 that as long as the pilot has warning of the missile coming he can out accelerate and out run or out manuever the missile, or try to shoot it down.

It's interesting that the VF-11B/C, VF-17 & YF-21/VF-22 carry only short range micro-missiles for their missile armament and no medium range missiles, which implies that medium or long range missile combat is pretty much a thing of the past and large volley missile salvos at short range seems to be the norm. Saturate the enemy with many missiles at close range in the hope that one or two get through and hit before the enemy can escape.

Graham

[eugimon]

This makes sense if G-force is somehow nullified in valks... even if the valk is physically capable of out performing a missile, the pilot certainly would not.

my personal theory on why long range missiles aren't used in macross is that the detection range on OT radar is so great, that long range missiles just get picked off with AA fire before they even reach the targets... seeing how beam weapons are virtually instantaneous given the distances we're dealing with.

[David Hingtgen]

Just a point: G's are a measurement of force, not turn radius. This is how a 7G turn in a plane can defeat a missile than can do 20G turns.

[Prime]

Wouldn't the limiting factor for the valk's Gs be the pilot?

[Mr March]

I have to say I sure don't see missiles becoming less important in Macross as times progresses. I see perhaps the use of missiles in situations within the anime different than Valkyries vs. Regulds typical of the old SDF/DYRL era. However, design wise, it's clear the mecha of Macross are as missile-centric as ever. The standard VF-11 seems to be the only exception, with an emphasis on the gun pod and defensive options. But the YF-19, the YF-21 and the X-9 Ghost are all designed with a ridiculous amount of missile firepower, not including additional missile options in the FAST pack systems.

As I understand it, wouldn't the contact phase of a missile ALWAYS be a factor, regardless of what era it is? I mean, putting aside magical sci-fi technologies like gravity control, thousand-g thrust and other physics altering technologies, the fact that a missile is always moving faster than it's target will mean evasion can be acheived given the right defense, correct? Like David Hingtgen said. So I guess momentum would be an issue and while a 20g-capable missile has the advantage over a 7g-capable fighter, the fighter might be able to alter it's momentum more than a missile going that much faster? Am I thinking along the correct line here?

[Zinjo]

Clearly the advent of High Manueverability Missiles addresses the agility of the variable fighter issue.

Missiles can never be replaced by energy weapons because eventhough energy weapons are faster, they can't course correct or intercept a target like missiles can and they loose potency the farther they have to travel.

If a sufficient number of missiles are fired they can overwhelm any target. Essentially SDFM had it correct in that the more missiles are fired the greater the odds a few will get through.

It didn't hurt that it was a target rich battlefield either. When Lap Lamis' fleet arrived with her mecha, it bacame more of a challenge for the Valk pilots to hit their targets. The Q-Rau was a perfect example of the idea of overwhelming a target's defences with a missile barrage.

If the Mac+ or Mac7 fighters had a rail gun like the MacII fighters this would give the same punch of a missile with the comparable speed of an energy weapon.

In our modern times, there still has yet to be an effective defence against missile attack, dispite all the rhetoric by the defence contracting industries. The only thing the modern fighter pilot has going for him is that it isn't cost effective or wise for an enemy pilot to fire more than one or two of his limited number of missiles at a time.

If the same mini-missiles of the Mac universe were available today, fighter tactics would dramatically change.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Zinjo

[Noyhauser]

A couple of years on here ago I made the point that the VF-11 really follows the VF-1 in its design philopsophy, because the strategic situation hadn't really changed that much. The main threat still remains a massive Zentredi invasion, and in that case the VF-11 would be equipped probably in the same way as VF-1s were: plenty of thermonuclear weapons (wing mounted), and fast packs with micro-missile launchers. Since the Zentredi were largely static in their technology development there wasn't really much need for a high technology response, so they probably went with what was cheap to produce and proven in combat (the evolutionary step to the VF-1). Compare that to the very expensive VF-4 being replaced by the VF-5000 and you can understand the logic behind the VF-11

And although the VF-11 isn't really optimized for atmospheric combat, realistically its not going to engage in that sort combat too often. If what I suggest is correct, when the VF-11 was designed their main focus was space based threats, so units like the VF-5000 would be more likely to fill the atmospheric role. It just needed to be good enough. Also I'm sure it could carry wing mounted weaponry like the VF-1 did.

Only in 2035 with growing dissastisfaction of colonies with the central government is there a real need for a high technology response (since renegades have the same technology as UNSpacy). This fosters project supernova, and the VF-21 and VF-19; true revolutionary steps in VF design.

Edited March 5, 2007 by Noyhauser

[Zinjo]

Only in 2035 with growing dissastisfaction of colonies with the central government is there a real need for a high technology response (since renegades have the same technology as UNSpacy). This fosters project supernova, and the VF-21 and VF-19; true revolutionary steps in VF design.

Very good points!

That is the most reasonable explanation for the need to develop more specialized variable fighters.

Spacy didn't really have to deal with variable vs variable fighter combat since the Mayan Island incident over 25 years prior.

There was no way for them to be able to anticipate the hijacked VF's that the Mac 7 fleet encountered later, thus such aircraft must have been developed to deal with colonial conflicts with like equiped combatants.

[David Hingtgen]

In M7 (M7+ actually I think) we see Gamlin getting trained for high-G's. Also, in M3 (canon) we see Max and Milia straining and getting batted about severely by G's that'd kill anyone else---so we can assume that by either training, genetic engineering, or sheer genetic luck (Jenius genes) that valk pilots of the future can take more G's than current pilots.

[Noyhauser]

Very good points!

That is the most reasonable explanation for the need to develop more specialized variable fighters.

Spacy didn't really have to deal with variable vs variable fighter combat since the Mayan Island incident over 25 years prior.

There was no way for them to be able to anticipate the hijacked VF's that the Mac 7 fleet encountered later, thus such aircraft must have been developed to deal with colonial conflicts with like equiped combatants.

The first clue I had to this is that its explicitly said in M+ that the Project supernova fighters were designed NOT to use reaction warheads in order not to cause an incident. That means it was politically damaging to use such a weapon, particularly against renegade colonies. That leads me to believe that the VF-11's main weapon was not the gunpod but some sort of RMS-1 follow-on weapon that they probably spammed in any large scale fleet action. We know that they do carry such weapons as the Stealth Frigates fired off a ton of them late in the M7 Series. VF-11 probably were more than effective against basic Zent units (since the VF-1 was adequate), and basically matched against Meltrandi Quads, which would usually be taken on by VF-17 anyway. In any case as the opening of M+ suggest, the VF-11s were starting to encounter more and more Anti-UN groups with similar levels of technology, probably putting them at a disadvantage. The renegades likely used hit and run tactics, thus ensuring local superiority too. Thus Project supernova and the fold booster are UN-Spacy's response. Also its not just they would be facing "like units" as the renegade power armor (and later the EVA) showed that other factions could be developing their own weapons, thus they needed something that was clearly superior, not just better than regular line units.

All this leads me to believe that the VF-11 might not be taken off the front lines as quick as people believe, as its perfectly adequate in its nominal role, just that its outclassed in these very specific situations.

Edited March 6, 2007 by Noyhauser

[Noyhauser]

In M7 (M7+ actually I think) we see Gamlin getting trained for high-G's. Also, in M3 (canon) we see Max and Milia straining and getting batted about severely by G's that'd kill anyone else---so we can assume that by either training, genetic engineering, or sheer genetic luck (Jenius genes) that valk pilots of the future can take more G's than current pilots.

And here is the answer:

http://macross.anime.net/mecha/united_nati...vf15/index.html

[eugimon]

In M7 (M7+ actually I think) we see Gamlin getting trained for high-G's. Also, in M3 (canon) we see Max and Milia straining and getting batted about severely by G's that'd kill anyone else---so we can assume that by either training, genetic engineering, or sheer genetic luck (Jenius genes) that valk pilots of the future can take more G's than current pilots.

would have to be via genetic engineering then, since max, hikaru and other pilots of that generation are basically "this generation"

[Graham]

But the YF-19, the YF-21 and the X-9 Ghost are all designed with a ridiculous amount of missile firepower, not including additional missile options in the FAST pack systems.

Actually, I've always thought the YF-19 was quite lacking in missile firepower. Those leg missile bays are not really very big.

The production VF-19F/S are supposed to hold a total of 48 micro-missiles in the legs (24 per leg), but again this is only micro-missiles which are short range only.

Graham

[Zinjo]

In M7 (M7+ actually I think) we see Gamlin getting trained for high-G's. Also, in M3 (canon) we see Max and Milia straining and getting batted about severely by G's that'd kill anyone else---so we can assume that by either training, genetic engineering, or sheer genetic luck (Jenius genes) that valk pilots of the future can take more G's than current pilots.

Well it is also a design issue of variable fighters. If you look at the Zentreadi mecha (not so much the pods), the pilots are essentially strapped into the cockpit and become a "part" of the unit as opposed to the Valkyrie pilots.

Now the the flexibility of the variable fighter design is arguably superior, but there are limitations to it as well, that dramatic license has taken care of in subsequent productions, such as how to deal with inertial G-forces.

The designers of the Mac II fighters dealt with this issue by designing limb restraints into the flight seat.

The Studio Nue answer is shock treatment to condition the pilots' bodies against the forces of inertia.

Now back to Project Nova, considering how few of the VF-19s and VF-22's were apparently fielded one could assume that these were special opps fighters.

The whole of the Mac 7 fleet only had 1 flight of 19's , along with the flight of 17's and only 2 known VF-22's in service with that fleet (possibly 3 to make a flight of 22's as well).

This leads me to believe that none of these were meant to be general service fighters like the VF-11s were or as mass produced as the VF-11s apparently were.

When one considers how complex the transformation sequence are for each model, one can conclude that it would be cheaper to build the Thunderbolts as they follow a simplified transformation sequence similar to that of the VF-1.

Edited March 6, 2007 by Zinjo

[sketchley]

Given the mission role envisioned for the VF-19, maybe the "limited" missile load is to be used mainly as a distraction to cover it's retreat after completing the assassination of the mission target with non-missile weapons?