The computer and electronics super geek superthread...

[David Hingtgen]

Here's what may be a stupid question:

People always seem to talk about the chips or a "generic" board, but never the actual specific company that sells them like you'd find in BestBuy. Example: GeForce 6600. There are a bunch of brands that sell GeForce 6600 cards but I rarely see any comments about the "final" brand---from what I can tell one of the few differences is the fan installed. And as you know, I'm looking for quiet. Who has good fans on their cards? Is there really that much difference whose GeForce card you buy, or will any GeForce 6600 be nigh-identical to another?

[emajnthis]

for David, as far as RAM is concerned, you will certainly notice the performance difference when leaving multiple folders open and running memory intensive programming since that it was RAM nearly specifically addresses. Essentially when you run or are running a program, it takes the information from the hard drive or whatever media you're running it from and places it on your RAM to make it quickly and easily accessible. This way it doesn't have to constantly access your hard drive, it can just shoot down the address bus straight to your RAM and gather it's information to shoot back through the external data bus.

Increasing the size (from 512mb to 1Gb or higher) would in tern allow you to store more information in RAM and your computer could then run seemlessly. The speed of ram (PC2700, PC3200, etc.) is how fast the RAM works to find the information that is stored in its RAM modules.

Things like cas latency and the like can be adjusted manually through most CMOS options and are normally reserved for uber geeks who sit around and play with timing options till they find what is optimal (just because your current timing is set lower doesn't always mean it will be faster for different RAM). A lot of times you'll find the stock settings work great unless you're overclocking your machine and find that different timing will be beneficial to performance (like for the computer my brother and i built, completely changed all of the timing). Also if you see overclocking in your future you'll want to look for RAM that has "heat spreaders" to assist in dissipating heat through the case instead of over your mobo. As far as brand, try to stay away from cheaper brands like PNY; Crucial is definitely the top dog but you'll pay a premium for it. You can usually find Kingston and Corsair pretty cheap and they've always done just fine in my machines.

As far as power supplies are concerned, stick with Coolermaster and Antec, two best brands around for quiet consistent PSU's. The consistency is a big deal (like VF-19 explained you can have one blow on you) especially for overclocking or machines that are just within the limits of the PSU. For mobos I like to stick with MSI and ASUS, most other brands aren't worth a look (and no matter how tempting never purchase Soyo; worst brand ever).

As far as Video cards go, ATI is the manufacturer for Radeon but for Nvidia, they only are making the GPU that is attached to the manufacturers board. Which means for Nvidia stuff you have to read closely to the specs, normally it doesn't make a difference either way but i remember a few cases where there was a dramatic difference. The important bit is making sure you're getting the right RAM that comes with the Vid card, since a lot of the same type of card come with two different RAM sizes or types (128MB, 256MB, DDR, DDR2, etc.). Usually the fans that come with them suck and need to be replaced anyway, so i wouldn't purchase it based on that, but if MSI is making the board i'd pick that up.

Edited February 26, 2007 by emajnthis

[azrael]

Just a few notes.

AGP vs. PCI-E - Ideally, you'll want to update from AGP to PCI-E because the standard is going that way (or I should say, is already that way). But nothing is ideal in this world. If you intend on keeping that system a little longer David, stay with AGP. Go to PCI-E when you get a new system.

Also---saw several people recommend Crucial for memory. Good?

Yes. I've used Crucial in my earlier builds and found them to be extremely stable.

As far as power supplies are concerned, stick with Coolermaster and Antec, two best brands around for quiet consistent PSU's.

As much as Antec has been good to me, there are days where I wonder if the fans actually are pushing out any air. For newer power supplies, a few things you should consider is Efficiency of 75-85% (or better) and Active PFC.

Concerning Nvidia cards. There are a few other companies that use Nvidia chipsets. EVGA, BFG Technologies, Chaintech, Sapphire, and the list goes on. Usually, all of these manufacturers will make competing spec video cards. The same GPU, same quality and quantity of RAM. The differences are under the hood and barely noticeable to most users. BFG Tech is more of an enthusiast brand name since they overclock their cards out-of-the-box. They also offer a lifetime warranty on all of their video cards. You pay a premium on their stuff but there is the quality factor.

[emajnthis]

Oh, Also to address changing out a PSU, it's very simple. Three screws and it falls right out. Dependent on certain proprietary brands (dell, hp, etc.) you'll find it's more/less the same usually one or two screws but with the addition of some kind of locking mechanism.

I don't want to destroy your plans for upgrading your computer, but if you're going to be buying a new vid card, new ram, and a new PSU, why not just build a new machine. At this point you're only a mother board, processor, and case away from having an entirely new PC.

[azrael]

I don't want to destroy your plans for upgrading your computer, but if you're going to be buying a new vid card, new ram, and a new PSU, why not just build a new machine. At this point you're only a mother board, processor, and case away from having an entirely new PC.

I'm tempted to say that myself.

[Hurin]

Regarding video cards. . . most of the time, the cards being sold are "reference boards". . . meaning they are identical cards. . . and then the seller (eVGA, BFG, XFX, etc.) just pop their own sticker on the heatsink/fan and away they go.

There are exceptions. Asus, (among others) often engineers their own cards. Some manufacturers will modify the cooler and/or overclock the chips a bit.

But, in general, especially closer to launch date, the cards will be identical or nearly identical. So, your deciding factors should be warranty, customer service, and/or game bundle.

For power supplies. . . I've strayed from Antec lately. I like to go with Seasonic, Corsair (which I think are also made by Seasonic), or (when possible) PC Power & Cooling. I'm currently using a PC Power & Cooling Silencer Quad 750 in my gaming rig. And it only cost about $50 more than I paid for a 550w Antec last year. Very happy with it. A great site for power supply reviews is www.jonnyguru.com. That dude knows his stuff!

[David Hingtgen]

Thanks much for all the info everyone. I noticed earlier that my CPU fan is a CoolerMaster, could be a factor as to why this PC is so quiet overall. Was looking at Seasonic lately for power, for sheer quality/noise.

Ok, question: A lot of places say that graphics cards really only ask for 350+ watt power supplies due to the actual amperage on the 12v rails being higher on those power supplied. Any place to find out what specific cards REALLY need, and what power supply I actually need? I mean, getting 500 or 600 would be a waste of money if it's not needed, and would just be a possible source of heat/noise. The calculator at http://extreme.outervision.com seems the most specific, and is giving me from 237 to 264 needed for various combinations I'm considering. Which would make the most sense to me, as I'm only adding a bit of memory and a low/medium-end card. I shouldn't need to DOUBLE the powersupply wattage.

Yes, while I will be getting new RAM and video card---they will be be fairly cheap. Being able to use 512MB memory chips and use all 4 slots instead of 1GB in 2 slots will basically pay for the new power supply. A high-end graphics card alone will cost more than I plan to spend for the whole upgrade.

[emajnthis]

I have to be honest when i say that i've only majorly upgraded (not just a RAM upgrade) one PC in my life and it was due to it being my guinea pig for learning how to overclock. Normally when the "upgrade bug" bites me, i get my parts list together and realize that i should just build a new machine and then find a new purpose for my old one (file server, PVR, family internet machine, Music box, TV internet surfer, etc.). Even the one i overclocked ended up becoming a PVR and internet machine for my bedroom TV.

High end video cards are ridiculously overpriced, but a lot of times if you surf forums long enough there's always someone getting rid of one for super cheap. A lot of the builds that i've done ended up being very cost effective because of used parts, while i normally don't recommend this to people it can sometimes really work out in your favor. Reason being is that 90% of hardware failures happen within the first month of owning the equipment, so if someone has "tested" it for you then you're almost guaranteed it won't blow on you anytime soon. Truth be told i've only purchased used video cards because prices are so inflated, and i get all of my Intel processors cheap because i have a friend who works in R&D for Intel (which also allows me to purchase server chips of which are normally reserved for business use that have better heat transfer coatings). I've reused RAM but never purchased used RAM; which also reminds me that crucial gives you a lifetime warranty on your RAM and they're good on it since i had one replaced before.

Also be warned that high end graphics cards get very HOT and not just for the card itself for the case and mobo too, so be sure to check your temps with mobo monitor to be sure it stays within a safe range.

[David Hingtgen]

My comment about the high-end graphics card was just to illustrate that I plan to do a cheap upgrade, not get a whole new system (which would include a high-end graphics card)

I originally planned to do memory only (hundred bucks) and maybe a cheap graphics card (hundred bucks or a bit more). But checking around, it seems that my PC is so close to maxing out its powersupply as-built, that doing almost anything requires a new power supply. But if I can get by with a Seasonic 330 or 380watt, then I can still do everything for well under 300 bucks.

[Hurin]

Most power recommendations for graphics cards are over-blown. Even on the new 8800 series from nvidia. Many people have demonstrated that you can run these cards on far less than the "recommended" PSUs. Having said that, however, skimping on power supply is going to be a major pain in the butt if you have any stability issues. Because every time you say that you only have a 400W power supply, you'll have to wade through all the people who have bought into the hype saying: "You need to upgrade your PSU."

Basically, 700W-1KW is the new high-end. And the 400W-500W power supplies are the sweet spot in price for what you get. So I wouldn't recommend trying to save $10 or $20 on a PSU by going non-name brand or low-wattage (300W). PSUs, in my experience, are one of the more failure-prone devices in a computer. And, when they go, they're also one of the few components that has the potential to take the rest of the system with it. It doesn't happen often (never seen it myself, all mine have died gracefully). But I've read plenty of horror stories of a PSU blowing out and frying motherboards, RAM, etc.

Regarding RAM. Most reputable manufacturers now have lifetime warranties. Corsair, Crucial, Patriot, G.Skill, OCZ, etc.

[emajnthis]

PSU's are one of the things you can't go cheap on, especially if you want longevity from your machine. Try to go with something in the 500 range if possible, tomshardware has a few really good recommendations (though his site sucks to navigate through).

Edited February 27, 2007 by emajnthis

[azrael]

If you aren't planning a major upgrade, then I would suggest shooting low for a video card. A GeForce FX5200/FX5500-series, 6200-series or a ATI Radeon 9550 or 9600-series. These will probably bring you out of the MX440-hole that you have but won't burst your upgrade budget. These are low-end cards and will handle anything your MX440 did and a little more. Most of these cards are sub-$100 to $150-range.

From the money you'll save here, spend it on a reliable brand 400-450W PSU. Seasonic does make a 330W PSU, but the price is about the same or slightly lower than an Antec 400-450W PSU.

[VF-19]

My comment about the high-end graphics card was just to illustrate that I plan to do a cheap upgrade, not get a whole new system (which would include a high-end graphics card)

I originally planned to do memory only (hundred bucks) and maybe a cheap graphics card (hundred bucks or a bit more). But checking around, it seems that my PC is so close to maxing out its powersupply as-built, that doing almost anything requires a new power supply. But if I can get by with a Seasonic 330 or 380watt, then I can still do everything for well under 300 bucks.

A word of caution. HP may make it's own propritary (spelling?) powersupply, that goes with it's own motherboard. This means that if you stick that Seasonic or Antec in there, there's a chance that it'll either not actually be able to connect to the board, or that it'll destroy it.

I know dell makes their own powersupply and mother boards, and that people who want to upgrade their dells are stuck with going to dell for parts. However, I don't know if HP just slaps their computers together from off the shelf components.

[Mechafan]

I was thinking the same thing. I am still on a Agp motherboard and Nivdia just anounced DX10 Agp video card coming this year. Hopefully Ati will follow suit. I allready have a 600 watt PSU, so I safe on that. I just order an AMD FX60 to max out my 939 socket board. After the new graphics card, I should not have to buy a new system for maybe another 2 years.

[David Hingtgen]

I've found a few reports of people upgrading my PC, but most are from 2004 or 2005---several had changed power supplies, but never saw a problem. There are a LOT of HP's out there with weird powersupplies, but mine isn't one of them. And the motherboard, while "HP exclusive" is physically identical to another ASUS, it simply has many parts of the BIOS locked to prevent the average stupid HP owner from ruining the system. (many people have been able to overwrite the HP BIOS with ASUS's standard one)

Ok, new question: Fans/noise/heat for graphics cards. Related to my last question about card brands. Nobody seems to agree---a guy will say card has a nigh-silent fan, another guy says its the loudest thing he's ever had. And there's so many people making nVidia (who I plan to go with) I have no idea where to look/what to buy. And newegg.com is like going to avsforums.com---according to the reviews, every product sucks and has a 50% failure rate the first day. I just want a card that's better than my GeForce4 MX440, and runs either cool enough to get by on passive cooling, or has a very quiet fan. (Way too many fanless cards seem to run way too hot for my tastes---I want a rock-solid super-stable system--I will not trade stability for performance)

Mechafan---a new Nvidia DirectX 10 AGP card? I might just wait for that--though it all depends on how much they'll cost. I still want to stay around 100-125.

[Mechafan]

I would just wait for the Dx10 card. It should be a Geforce 8600 which replaces the geforce 7600. They should be less than $200 from what I have been reading. That should last you awhile. I have a ASUS Geforce 6800 GT now when overclocked still has life in it. Plus it has shader model 3 for the Splinter Cells. DX10 cards run DX9 games very well and you'll be ready for Vista gaming if you go that route later. My motherboard is ASUS as well.

Edited February 27, 2007 by Mechafan

[Hurin]

Well, it's more expensive than the GeForce 6200 series ($50-70). But. . . for $125, here's a passively cooled Geforce 7200 (GS) with which I have personal experience. I have never gamed on it so I can't speak to its gaming performance. But it has been stable in the furnace that is my poorly ventilated htpc (tivo) case. I keep that system running way too hot because I have the fans turned way down for the sake of noise reduction.

7600GS AGP 256MB Passively Cooled

It's AGP, 256MB. . . I just don't know if you'd be happy with the gaming/3D performance. I'm way too into game performance to be a good judge of these things for those who aren't obsessed little geeks like me. Though, it's certainly much faster than an MX440!

H

Edit: Typos, forgotten link. . . other lame crap.

[David Hingtgen]

Hurin--that exact one is very high on my list at the moment. Basically, the only thing I want is:

Noticeably better frames rates and better anti-aliasing than my MX440. Even if it's only 1/10 as good as other current stuff and can't even run a lot of current games---if it'll be noticeably better than what I have now--I'll be happy. (So long as it's quiet and doesn't overheat)

[emajnthis]

I think just about any upgrade is an upgrade from what you have now (no offense) and the board in your HP is still built by ASUS it's just has a proprietary BIOS so you won't modify or overclock it (it's in the specs link you posted) so flashing the BIOS might be useful if you wanted to run the processor a little faster.

[David Hingtgen]

::nevermind, ranting::

:editing to reply to a future post:

JBO--I'm aware my GeForce "4" MX440 is really a GeForce2. Which is why I'd just like SOMETHING that won't require a massive powersupply unit--even cards 4 years old would be superior. Anything would be an upgrade.

[JB0]

Hurin--that exact one is very high on my list at the moment. Basically, the only thing I want is:

Noticeably better frames rates and better anti-aliasing than my MX440. Even if it's only 1/10 as good as other current stuff and can't even run a lot of current games---if it'll be noticeably better than what I have now--I'll be happy. (So long as it's quiet and doesn't overheat)

If you want an easy comparison...

The GeForce 4 MX is actually a GeForce 2.

You'll be replacing it with a low-end GeForce 6(that actually IS a GeForce 6).

Suffice it to say that yeah, you're gonna see a good bit of a performance boost.

[Hurin]

::nevermind, ranting::

JBO--I'm aware my GeForce "4" MX440 is really a GeForce2. Which is why I'd just like SOMETHING that won't require a massive powersupply unit--even cards 4 years old would be superior. Anything would be an upgrade.

Well, the 7600gs is very power friendly. Nvidia only recommends a 300W power supply for it. And when they make those recommendations, they're assuming you'll have crappy no-name PSUs. So, if you're looking at a 7600gs or below, I don't think you'd have anything to worry about.

Having said that. . . if I were you, these are what I'd consider:

Memory

Low-end: 1GB PC3200 Crucial (2 x 512MB) - $79.99

High-end: 2GB PC3200 G.Skill (2 x 1GB) - $134.99

Timings (latencies) aren't that important. Nothing you're actually going to notice. I like tight timings. But only for geeky benchmarking.

Video Card

Low-end: Nvidia Zogis (?) 6200 256MB (full, not LE) AGP - $51.99

High-end: Nvidia Gigabyte 7600GS 256MB - $124.99

Both are passively cooled. Some guy claims that the Zogis one wasn't as fast as other 6200s. But he sounds like he is on crack. Though, I've never heard of "Zogis" before.

Power Supply

Low-end: Antec SmartPower 2.0 350W - $39.99

Mid-range: PC Power & Cooling 360W Silencer w/ 21A on 12v rail - $65.00

High-end: Corsair 520W - $129.99

I'd recommend the PC Power & Cooling. Best amps on the 12v rail for the money. Plus, since sound is an issue, the Silencers are supposed to be pretty darn quiet.

The trick to the 12v amps is that power supplies used to divide amps up onto a few (two or three) different 12v rails. But, recently, since video cards have become so power hungry and began saturating individual rails, many PSU manufacturers have begun creating giant "single rail" PSUs. Those are really only needed in the case of the newest video cards however. I used to run a 7800gtx SLi (two cards) setup with only an Antec Truepower 550W and I never had to worry about rails or anything like that.

Again, those power requirements are often very overstated. I can't imagine a 7600gs or a 6200 making any of the PSUs above break a sweat. But if you have read that your existing power supply is barely able to power what you've currently got, I'd definitely look into one of them.

Hope that helps!

H

Edit: Just saw your questions about Dual-channel. To the best of my knowledge (and this document), all DIMMs need to be the same size across all four slots. Though there is an odd exception where you could use three DIMMs as long as the third DIMM in the other channel is the same size as the other two combined.

I could be wrong though, and/or reading that document wrong. 4-slot motherboards are pretty rare nowadays and I've actually never seen this come up before.

I recommended Either a 2GB (2 x 1GB) or a 1GB (2 x 512MB) kit above. It's a shame, but those 256MB DIMMs that you already have will probably have to get yanked out if you want dual-channel.

Regarding HP saying that the RAM needs to be 1.8v. That's odd. Dunno why. But crucial's site recommends 2.5v DIMMs for your system. So I wouldn't sweat it. However, as always, I take no responsibility if anything above fails to work! I've had prefectly good RAM from several manufacturers fail to work in certain Dell computers in the past. RAM (especially) can be finicky.

[David Hingtgen]

Thanks much for your post, answered a lot of questions. As for my 4 slots of RAM--hey, it only takes me 30 secs to change them, I can try plenty of configurations to try to get dual channel for all 4 of them--and if all else fails, I can get rid of the two 256's and live with it, or replace them with more copies of the new RAM.

One thing I'm debating though--I was planning on going with 2x 512MB PC2700 RAM, as both the speed, latency, and timing match my current RAM, and I *should* get nice, matched, dual-channel RAM of 1.5GB across the board. But if the motherboard etc won't allow dual-channel that way, there's little point, and I should just ditch the original RAM and go with all-new PC3200. However, that would take it to the motherboard's max recommended total RAM, and I suspect that power-wise, it won't like 1GB chips nor especially the slightly higher voltage 3200 needs. (Which is part of why I want to go with 2x 2700 512's now--also it's half the price) (that is not a powersupply issue, but an "old motherboard" issue--which is NOT going to be replaced, that'd defeat the purpose of a cheap upgrade)

My theory is that if I go with 2700, and it doesn't like the old 2700 chips--I can just buy another matched pair of new 2700, and still have paid almost exactly the same as if I went with 2GB of 3200 in the first place--but save a hundred bucks if I don't need to.

PS--I just went to the garage to get my old PC, and removed the power supply just for practice. (And snagged its ethernet card for a spare--have there been any changes/revised standards for that?, it's some 7 years old now, but totally mint--hope it works if I need it)

[emajnthis]

Tne thing I'm debating though--I was planning on going with 2x 512MB PC2700 RAM, as both the speed, latency, and timing match my current RAM, and I *should* get nice, matched, dual-channel RAM of 1.5GB across the board. But if the motherboard etc won't allow dual-channel that way, there's little point, and I should just ditch the original RAM and go with all-new PC3200. However, that would take it to the motherboard's max recommended total RAM, and I suspect that power-wise, it won't like 1GB chips nor especially the slightly higher voltage 3200 needs. (Which is part of why I want to go with 2x 2700 512's now--also it's half the price) (that is not a powersupply issue, but an "old motherboard" issue--which is NOT going to be replaced, that'd defeat the purpose of a cheap upgrade)

I think it just boils down to how much money you're willing to spend and whether or not you need more than 1GB. You can run 4x 256MB PC2700 RAM chips in dual channel but you would need to purchase two RAM chips of the same specifications as your current (which may be difficult, but economically would be the cheapest). You can go ahead and purchase the 2x 512MB PC2700 which will still give you a Gig of RAM but might cost a little more and if it doesn't feel fast enough pick up two more. Or do the same as the latter but with PC3200; when you really look at it, PC3200 will cost roughly the same as PC2700 (here's an example compared with Hurin's PC3200 Crucial suggestion), and the power concern of PC3200 over PC2700 is negligible. Eventhough your motherboard is old, so long as you are purchasing a new and stable PSU, you will have no problems bumping up to the higher bandwidth RAM, and the power strain on the PSU (even one below 400W) should not be a problem. Heat on the other hand is a different issue, but i doubt you would need to upgrade your mobo fan (and even if you do it's a $15 investment).

My theory is that if I go with 2700, and it doesn't like the old 2700 chips--I can just buy another matched pair of new 2700, and still have paid almost exactly the same as if I went with 2GB of 3200 in the first place--but save a hundred bucks if I don't need to.

Which like i said previously is kind of the risk of being economical. You would need to purchase exactly the same RAM as what is currently in there for this to work with no kinks. That's not to say it wouldn't work with a different manufacturers RAM, but for the sake of stability and reliability and giving account that you want to run dual channel, that is really the only way to do it.

PS--I just went to the garage to get my old PC, and removed the power supply just for practice. (And snagged its ethernet card for a spare--have there been any changes/revised standards for that?, it's some 7 years old now, but totally mint--hope it works if I need it)

The ethernet card should work fine in any PCI slot (assuming its PCI), those type of standards haven't changed in over a decade (not since ISA, EISA, etc.). And good for you for getting your hands dirty with your other PC, I look forward to hearing your experience with tearing down your PC and putting it back together with new parts soon.

Edit: newegg reference, etc etc

Edited February 27, 2007 by emajnthis

[VF-19]

Heck, you know, I could just sell you my old ATI 9800 Pro. I've fitted an aftermarket Zalman fan on it, and thus it's very very quiet. Plus, it runs just about anything nicely. Granted, it's no where near as fast as the newer stuff out there, but it's reliable, and it doesn't require a beefy power supply.

[emajnthis]

Heck, you know, I could just sell you my old ATI 9800 Pro. I've fitted an aftermarket Zalman fan on it, and thus it's very very quiet. Plus, it runs just about anything nicely. Granted, it's no where near as fast as the newer stuff out there, but it's reliable, and it doesn't require a beefy power supply.

That's a very good card if you give David a good deal on it.

[azrael]

One thing I'm debating though--I was planning on going with 2x 512MB PC2700 RAM, as both the speed, latency, and timing match my current RAM, and I *should* get nice, matched, dual-channel RAM of 1.5GB across the board. But if the motherboard etc won't allow dual-channel that way, there's little point, and I should just ditch the original RAM and go with all-new PC3200. However, that would take it to the motherboard's max recommended total RAM, and I suspect that power-wise, it won't like 1GB chips nor especially the slightly higher voltage 3200 needs. (Which is part of why I want to go with 2x 2700 512's now--also it's half the price) (that is not a powersupply issue, but an "old motherboard" issue--which is NOT going to be replaced, that'd defeat the purpose of a cheap upgrade)

My theory is that if I go with 2700, and it doesn't like the old 2700 chips--I can just buy another matched pair of new 2700, and still have paid almost exactly the same as if I went with 2GB of 3200 in the first place--but save a hundred bucks if I don't need to.

Small price change, the Crucial 1GB/PC3200 (2x 512) sticks are $77.99 as of writing.

If you really want to go with PC2700, I would go with either:

Cosair 1GB (2x 512) @ $79.99 (currently on back order as of writing)

or if you can't wait,

Kingston 1GB (2 x 512) @ $89.49

Alternatively, you can buy single 512MB sticks and double up, but the price difference is only $1.

[Akilae]

Just a lil comment on "brand name" PSUs:

I've had two brand name power supplies blow out on me within a year, and my current generic brand is still going strong after two years. Go figure.

What I'm told is: if you're sure the power you getting in your house is clean, then a generic will save you money. If you're not sure about the power in your house, then get a brand name, and a power strip/surge protector to go with it.

[emajnthis]

What I'm told is: if you're sure the power you getting in your house is clean, then a generic will save you money. If you're not sure about the power in your house, then get a brand name, and a power strip/surge protector to go with it.

Not to sound overcautious, but in an "ideal" computer environment you should have an Active Battery Backup (I think that's the terminology anyway, it's been several years since i took A+) it's the battery backup that actually runs and regulates constantly as opposed to the other type that only kicks in during a power surge. And if a batery backup is not in your budget you should have a surge protector strip with a very high joules count.

[Hurin]

Regarding DH's RAM concerns:

My understanding is that he's got four slots. Two of which are currently populated by 256MB DIMMs that are PC2700. Giving him a total of 512MB PC2700 with two slots still free.

While I've always been a big believer in matching manufacturer, speed, and latency in order to guarantee dual-channel performance, the documentation on dual-channel with which I'm familiar states that this is not necessary.

So, if the goal is 1GB, he can just get two more 256MB DIMMs (PC3200 or PC2700). This should cost around $45. The speeds will settle to the lowest common denominator (PC2700), but dual-channel performance will be preserved.

Any other sizes being put in there with the existing RAM will disable dual-channel (to my understanding). So, obviously, my recommendation above of two 512MB DIMMs would just result in him needing to throw out the existing RAM in order to preserve dual-channel and still leave him at only 1GB (which he could have achieved by just adding the two 256MB DIMMs). The only benefit of adding the two 512MBs would be that the RAM would be operating at PC3200 (400MHz) instead of PC2700, and he'd have two slots available after the upgrade. The same hold true for the 2GB option floated in my prior post.

So, assuming that just adding two 256MB DIMMs is the way to go, it's possible that the Corsair memory may not be compatible. But it's likely to work fine. And, it looks like it'd be $15 cheaper than getting the RAM directly from Crucial. If it doesn't work, Newegg's online RMA process is easy, and you can often call and have the restocking fee waived.

So, restated, the options are:

2 x 256MB DIMMs

Keep existing (2) 256MB DIMMs and add another two. Total RAM = 1GB - $45

Benefits: Cheaper.

Cons: Speed will remain at 333MHz (PC2700)

2 x 512MB DIMMs

Throw out existing two 256MB DIMM and start fresh with two 512MB. Total RAM = 1GB - $80

Benefits: Speed increased to 400MHz (PC3200). Two slots available after upgrade.

Cons: Wastes existing RAM ($45 value). $35 more expensive.

2 x 1GB DIMMs

Throw out existing two 256MB DIMM and start fresh with two 1GB. Total RAM = 2GB - $135

Benefits: Speed increased to 400MHz (PC3200). Two slots available after upgrade. 2GB is a dream in XP, especially for multitasking while video and/or (multiple) image editing. 2GB is also the "new 1GB" for Vista.

Cons: Wastes existing RAM ($45 value). $90 more expensive than first option.

One final wrinkle. I've read several times over the years that "dual channel" performance isn't all it's cracked up to be. I've never looked into it much since I'm the type to just make sure it's working and not "risk" lower performance. But, you might consider just plopping in the latter two options above and keeping the old RAM, and seeing if you're happy with the performance. Though, that would of course limit the new RAM to PC2700 speeds as well as disabling dual-channel. But you'd have more total RAM, which might offset things a bit.

Best,

H

[emajnthis]

2 x 1GB DIMMs

Throw out existing two 256MB DIMM and start fresh with two 1GB. Total RAM = 2GB - $135

Benefits: Speed increased to 400MHz (PC3200). Two slots available after upgrade. 2GB is a dream in XP, especially for multitasking while video and/or (multiple) image editing. 2GB is also the "new 1GB" for Vista.

Cons: Wastes existing RAM ($45 value). $90 more expensive than first option.

I also just realized he should look up the specs on his motherboard (since he stated it has some age) that his RAM max is 4GB and not 2GB. If it's 2GB sometimes the board won't recognize a 1GB chip but rather forces itself to read 4x 512MB to max out at 2GB (sounds stupid i know, but it's a possibility). If that's the case a BIOS revision should clean that up, but I'm leaning on the side that his mobo should read 1GB chips fine.

[Hurin]

I also just realized he should look up the specs on his motherboard (since he stated it has some age) that his RAM max is 4GB and not 2GB. If it's 2GB sometimes the board won't recognize a 1GB chip but rather forces itself to read 4x 512MB to max out at 2GB (sounds stupid i know, but it's a possibility). If that's the case a BIOS revision should clean that up, but I'm leaning on the side that his mobo should read 1GB chips fine.

Yeah, I meant to point that out (). Max for that board is 4GB. I saw somewhere above where someone said 2GB.

[David Hingtgen]

I said 2 GB because that's what HP "recommends" for this PC as the max,(and they recommend actually doing that as 4x 512MB). 4GB is the physical max, not the "it'll actually use it" max AFAIK. But I know it'll accept 3200 1GB chips, it's been done. I swear I noticed a difference when I just swapped around mine to experiment--single channel took slightly longer to load XP. New BIOS for my board really doesn't update much--it just locks out even more controls/adjustments. I still run the original BIOS for that reason. (have the new one available if ever needed, but I can't go back to the original if its ever changed)

Latest Googling seems to indicate that my 1.5GB plan *should* work--so long as each pair is identical within itself, it should work fine. All 4 need not be identical. (and that thread specifically mentioned black/blue RAM pairings---which is exactly how HP colors their dual-channel slots--though maybe others do as well, I know there's many other color combos out there but black/blue is usually found with HP)

Now, it is possible to have, say, a matched pair, and then a 128 and a 256. The matched pair will operate in dual, but the other "pair" of course won't. That's dual/single. Dual/dual (what I want) just requires 2 matched pairs, not all four. (Otherwise it'd be quad-channel or something). From what I can tell, only PAIRS of memory slots can operate in dual-channel mode--hence the name, and they really won't care about what the other pairing is. If you had 6 slots, you could probably have 0, 1, 2, or 3 pairs operating in dual-channel. But you'd never need all 6 to match. (You could, you'd just have 3 separate pairs all in dual-channel, not one giant 6-channel RAM block)

It seems the "all 4 same" theory might originate from HP boards of the same era with THREE slots. Where you have to have the odd slot equal the other 2 combined. So if you have two 256's in the pair, the odd one has to "balance" with a 512 chip.

(As you can see, RAM for HP's isn't easy)

[Mechafan]

Latest Googling seems to indicate that my 1.5GB plan *should* work--so long as each pair is identical within itself, it should work fine. All 4 need not be identical. (and that thread specifically mentioned black/blue RAM pairings---which is exactly how HP colors their dual-channel slots--though maybe others do as well, I know there's many other color combos out there but black/blue is usually found with HP)

Yes it should work fine. I have 2.5 GB in my system. Channel one 2 x 1GB and 2 x 256 in the other channel. I have black and blue slots also.

[Hurin]

Well, I'm surprised that you can have different sized DIMMs (originally thought you could but then some Googling dissuaded me). So, perhaps I'm not a good source for info on this topic.

But, I would think that Dual-Channel would turn off if you were to mismatch within either bank.

So. . .

Blue Slots = 2 x 512MB

Black Slots = 1 x 256MB, 1x 128MB

Would not allow Dual-Channel. I think.

Oddly, last night I read that the following would work:

Blue Slots = 2 x 512MB

Black Slots = 1 x 1GB, 1 x empty

Apparently, if you just match the Black ones with a DIMM that totals the same as the combined blue slots, Dual-Channel will continue to function. But, that was from a document for the Intel 9xx series motherboards. And yours is a 865 Springdale chipset. So it may not apply.

As always, be careful taking the advice given on message boards as gospel. Here included of course.