Toynami Announces Masterpiece Cyclones at Toyfair

[Graham]

The main problem with the Alphas IMO was poor parts fitting, which was due to CAD/CAM not being used, which led to asymetrical parts and poor parts fitting. Yamato also had this problem with the 1/72 Mac Plus toys and 1/60 VF-1 toys, which is why they switched to CAD for the 1/48 and everything that followed.

I'm of the opinion, that complex transforming toys have to use CAD for the design, along with good quality durable materials.

Graham

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

On a more personal note, I really dislike seeing Toynami and Yamato compared side by side. I'm not that much of a Yamato fanatic, but you got to admit, Yamato does do toys better than Toynami -- better design, engineering, material usage, and openess to feedback. They do have their issues -- QC being one of them -- but IMO, they do deliver more perceived quality for money than Toynami. Yes, I do realise this could be the fanboy talking, but really, Toynami and Yamato has dramatically different attitudes towards quality of product.

Yamato's vf-1 is better than toynami's vf-1 MPC. Even though the yamato has little diecast, it is generally considered a better toy.

Sorry if that came off fanboyish, but even fans of robotech who own the mpcs were complaining. (similar to how fans of yamato's vf-1 are complaining about thier QC for the yf-19 with regards to crooked gundpod etc)

It's not as black and white as we like to think. They both have hit or miss releases. Yamato generally had crappy stickers. Toynami had better stickers. Yamato can't offer support to the US, toynami can. Yamato generally has decent sculpt in the toys (using CAD ever since the 1/48) while toynami tend to make thiers deformed. (massive shoulders and skinny legs on the 1/100. Skull emblem that sticks up when it doesn't need to and is not canon to macross.) Yamato have better posability because of the light material. Toynami gets floppy because of weight. Yamato have big ugly boxes. Toynami have good boxes worthy of displaying on a shelf.

Why can't we expect both of them to improve? (ie fix the chicken hands yamato. use less cheap material toynami.) It's for thier own good to want to improve. Not just for our own benefit, but for future customers who will see the quality and become a convert and eventually a big supporter.

Edited February 14, 2007 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Shaggydog]

The main problem with the Alphas IMO was poor parts fitting, which was due to CAD/CAM not being used, which led to asymetrical parts and poor parts fitting. Yamato also had this problem with the 1/72 Mac Plus toys and 1/60 VF-1 toys, which is why they switched to CAD for the 1/48 and everything that followed.

I'm of the opinion, that complex transforming toys have to use CAD for the design, along with good quality durable materials.

Graham

Yeah, CAD is good, I agree. I think good design is possible without it, but it helps. That's the minor point I was making earlier.. the alphas were hindered by bad design more than anything else.

[LL Cool VF1J]

I like toynami(not over yamato). I dont think toynamis products are great, but I dont hate them either if the price is right. The main problem is that toynami has a monopoly over mospeada merchandise. So we really can not vote with our pocketbooks. If you are like me and just buy anything mospeada, then your only choice is toynami or vintage. If toynami is going to call something a masterpiece and charge $80, it should live up to that standard. I dont mind paying $80 for the alphas or even more, I just want the products to be worth my money. At this point, I still buy toynami products (only on clearance). Im just happy to get some alphas, cyclones, and maybe a beta. Of course I would be happier if Yamato or Bandai made them. I wish toynami would put more emphasis on the toy itself instead of the box. I would prefer to pull a true masterpiece toy out of a plain brown box then to have a masterpiece box enclosing a far from masterpiece toy.

Not trying to get political, but its simply capatalism. Make products the cheapest way possible and charge a lot to increase profits. Especially when the company has a monopoly, the quality will suffer.

[jenius]

Yeah, CAD is good, I agree. I think good design is possible without it, but it helps. That's the minor point I was making earlier.. the alphas were hindered by bad design more than anything else.

Design is HUGE and CAD/CAM have been utilized very well by Yamato. I'm hoping Toynami is learning. With the VF-1 MPC they gave it all the quirks a 1/65 toy should have... but then they upped it to 1/55 and didn't add anything to it... in fact they seemingly took most the diecast out of it to facilitate the change. If the MPC VF-1 were built in 1/65 scale (and obviously similiarly down-sized in price) I think it could have been fun. Instead it's a big fugly duckling without any of the neat engineering Yamato had the foresight to include in its 1/48 (and 1/60 to some extent) offerings.

Then Toynami decided to make the Alpha and keep it 1/55 scale which is another mistake in scale (unless they really do make a Beta). 1/55 could definitely work for an Alpha... but not one that's going to be doing all the ins-and-outs that the Toynami design requires. To simply slap on diecast for diecast's sake instead of using metal as reinforcing pieces was just the straw that broke the camel's back. Toynami should know by now they have slop in their manufacturing so they can't make designs that require no slack to work effectively. The Alpha is definitely more ambitious than the VF-1 but it still doesn't show that really "reaching for the starts" attitude a "masterpiece" should. How about swivel joints at the knees, poseable feet (why do manufacturers pay little attention to something as important as the feet??), and some decent hip joints? Again, had a bigger scale been chosen all of those things could have been a reality (and they ought to be on the beta!) and a little slop in the tolerances could have been afforded to still allow the toy to function properly.

The Cyclone is a complex design and I'm hoping that while it may resemble a 1/12 kit it actually is 1/8 scale like the old Gakken. With that kind of size they could make it strong and good-looking. I also hope they've realized that diecast is nice but not in gratuitous amounts where it will potentially weaken joints. Hopefully they've also figured out that friction joints in areas where a lot of friction will occur are not good ideas. I'm cautiously optimistic... At least I know if I break it right away they'll replace it for me.

[Mog]

I can understand why some of us get sore when it comes to Toynami. Whether it's a lack of promised die-cast in their Veritechs, a game of Russian roulette with the Alphas, or getting burned waiting for the Beta, some of that negativity we slew on them is well-warranted.

And as I've said in other posts, their style of marketing their products and handling customer feedback doesn't exactly build customer loyalty or, better yet, alleviate our concerns about their products.

How often (and timely) is their website updated with new news and pics of their latest Robotech or Macross products? Other than a few initial prototype shots, how often do they give us fans (or just "interested parties") pictures or articles of their in-process products? What does Toynami do to maintain our interest and attention on their products?

When we have valid complaints about their products, how does Toynami address them? We bring to their attention issues about floppy joints. And yet, their promotional ads for the new stuff keep touting their bookcases and minor stuff like rubber tires and such.

If they really wanted to get people's attention, how about posing their latest Alpha, arms outstretched (and not sagging), holding a gun, and not needing a stand or something else to support that oustretched arm?

THAT would impress me, make me worry less about their QC issues, and would show that they're listening to our concerns.

Look, I'd love for Toynami to be sucessful and be another viable producer of mecha goodness. But to put it simply, I just don't feel "the love" coming from Toynami. And as a customer who's put down a good chunk of money on their MPC's, that's down right frustrating.

And rather than looking at all this criticism and negativity as proof they should cut back on their Robotech products, I'd like for Toynami to take this as a challenge. Prove us wrong! Keep us updated on your progress. Show us the improvements you've made on your products. And show us that you can build a solid, durable, ultra-poseable, bad-ass toy!

I hate to bring in another tired cliche, but until Toynami takes these kinds of actions to counteract our negativity, Toynami's just gonna "reap what they sow."

EDIT: I totally agree with your capitalism and monoply points, LL Cool VF1J. But hopefully, Toynami remembers that they're still in a niche market. And we savvy customers still have just enough clout to give them a fatal counter-attack if they keep churning shoddy products (We just won't buy 'em.).

[Lynx7725]

Better material usage? How long can people keep saying that? How many crumbling shoulders and snapped connectors and stress-marked clips does Yamato have to make before the madness comes to an end?

Because you added a smiley at the back, I shall answer the question...

I've got 3 Yammie 1/60s. I don't have a single actual problem with them aside from chipping paint -- I handle them about equally initially, nowadays they are just displayed in Battroid (because I got no room to display them in Fighter).

I got one Alpha. I don't have any actual problems with it either. I handled it about the same way I handle my Yammies. It's also displayed now in Battroid.

I don't have problems out of box for either companies. I don't go out of my way to twist it or turn it in a way that stresses the product. I handle my toys reasonably (IMO, of course). In terms of out-of-box-ness, both products from both companies basically are similar in quality.

The difference is this: I pick up my Yammies, and I play with them. The only concerns I have is whether I'll chip more paint off, or to watch out for the lasers (which every VF-1 toy have to be careful with). It's a bit annoying to do leg swaps, but I can transform them without fear. Sure, some quirks exist, but it's not too bad.

I pick up my Alpha, and I worry about it. I worry about whether the upper arm would break when I extend it. I worry about whether the fist would crack when I wrap the gunpod in it. I worry if the telescoping torso would jam when I transform it into Fighter -- it did previously, and I had to apply oil to get it loose. In short, I have to be quite careful when I play with the Alpha. To the extent where I didn't get a Shadow Alpha (which I was considering) because I didn't want to deal with the hassle.

FWIW, I didn't get the Masterpiece VFs because I already had the 1/60s at the time they were produced. I didn't like the look of pics posted so I didn't pick any up, and I certainly don't need another additional line of VF clogging up my shelfspace. I got the Alpha because it's the only game in town. I don't think I got a lemon, because it's actually ok... now. But the one sample I got is so worrisome that I rather not continue with the series, barring an actual Red Beta release.

[jenius]

I've got 3 Yammie 1/60s. I don't have a single actual problem with them aside from chipping paint -- I handle them about equally initially, nowadays they are just displayed in Battroid (because I got no room to display them in Fighter).

You should look and see if your screw covers are all there. I can all but guarantee at least one is missing.

[Lynx7725]

You should look and see if your screw covers are all there. I can all but guarantee at least one is missing.

Been some time since I last touched them, but I'm fairly sure they are -- I do note these things and I sort of make it a habit to tap those regularly.

Hmm, inspection tour tonight.

[sidearmsalpha]

It's a damn shame that Mospeada can't get any love from the Japanese toy companies. I mean I would pay the asking price for a Bandai-produced SOC-quailty Cyclone or Legioss. Mospeada may not have been huge in Japan, but the mecha designs are still very cool to this day, especially the Cyclone design. I would think a company as huge as Bandai could test the waters on Mospeada. It seems they are willing to put out SOC toys of some of the more obscure Super Robots. Well, only time will.

[promethuem5]

I also wish that some other companies could get in on Mospeada stuff, but I also really hope this toy doesn't end up as bad as the Legioss's did (my first one is in the mail, got it for a steep mark down and am buying it as a 'will need fixes' project that I want to see if its fixable.)

The thing that worries me is that part of what is going to make this toy good or not isn't the armor (we've already seen old companies prove the design is workable) but the figure underneath... the rider figure really should be something along the lines of a Real Action Hero figure with workable armor... that would make this awesome.

[ARKARY]

Yeah, the big issue with a cyclone is going to be the posability of the figure underneath all that armor, with particular attention to the riding stance. The leg armor interfering with the ability to actually sit on it properly is going to be the main point to look at, since every other cyclone figure I've seen has the legs stick out at a horrible angle because the leg armor is just too big to wrap around a motorcycle properly.

However, the leg armor on Toynami's looks a lot slimmer than the other figures/models, and if there's one thing that Toynami seems to do well in it's figures is add a good amount of posability, so this could turn out pretty decently.

[jenius]

Can anyone provide a pic of a 1/12 Ride Armor kit next to a MPC Alpha? The pic on RT.com says the Ride Armor is exactly the same size as an alpha in battloid.

[hutch]

If they fix most/all of the MPC Alpha issues I will definitely buy one. Heck, I've been tempted to buy the Stik one even with the problems. I love that mech.

[ARKARY]

Actually, I bought a Lancer Alpha for Christmas when it was discounted for $40 at RT.com, and maybe I just got a good one but I love the thing and haven't had any major issues with it. I suppose that's part of the thing, though, it's definitely not an $80 toy but I think it was an excellent buy at $40.

[007-vf1]

Could I just see new picks of this suckers..?

I actually like the slightly upgraded design...

[Ginrai]

On a more personal note, I really dislike seeing Toynami and Yamato compared side by side. I'm not that much of a Yamato fanatic, but you got to admit, Yamato does do toys better than Toynami -- better design, engineering, material usage, and openess to feedback. They do have their issues -- QC being one of them -- but IMO, they do deliver more perceived quality for money than Toynami. Yes, I do realise this could be the fanboy talking, but really, Toynami and Yamato has dramatically different attitudes towards quality of product.

Once again, I completely disagree. My experiences with the Garland are actually worse than any experiences I had with Toynami, and the Garland was more expensive than the most expensive Toynami product, and had zero diecast. Both Yamato and Toynami have been perfectly happy to answer my emails and send me replacement product. Obviously Yamato is not going to deal with your import Valkyrie, but whatever. $100 for a Garland whose arm will break off if ever dare transform it is a better perceived value than an Alpha whose hand might break how exactly? It is the same thing. They are high priced collector's "toys" that have quality problems.

[jenius]

That RT.com $39.99 special on the Alphas was perfect. If these toys had MSRPs of $59.99 I think we'd all be a lot happier with them. Same goes for Yamato, as the prices skyrocket so do the expectations.

[bigkid24]

My usual gripe about Toynami is that none of their products are innovative or very original. Everything they've done for Robotech has been "based" on some other pre-existing toy. Sure the mecha designs are still the same after 20 years but there still some innovations that can be made. So Toynami "borrows" designs and they still can't make them work and fit properly?

I give Yamato a little bit of leeway since they are at least creating new designs. When is the last time someone made a transforming VF-0? YF-19? Garland? The 1/48 VF-1 is wildly innovative with them removing the swing bar so I don't fully agree with the how many ways can you make something transform argument. Most of the stuff Yamato does is from scratch. Sure there are problems but for the most part Yamato addresses them with subsequent releases.

As for the cyclone, I'll probably buy one at a discount price whenever it happens and it WILL happen. It looks okay....sadly it's only okay. I want all of the main characters including Rand and Rook though. I already have two Gakken cyclones so I may skip Scott's anyway. That should give me time to read reviews and figure out if I should bother getting them.

[ARKARY]

That RT.com $39.99 special on the Alphas was perfect. If these toys had MSRPs of $59.99 I think we'd all be a lot happier with them. Same goes for Yamato, as the prices skyrocket so do the expectations.

Well I checked, and on RT.com they're $59.99 right now, so if that's your price point, go for it. I personally think they're still a bit high at that price, but $39.99 was just right.

[jenius]

Well I checked, and on RT.com they're $59.99 right now, so if that's your price point, go for it. I personally think they're still a bit high at that price, but $39.99 was just right.

I don't tend to buy any toys at MSRP but I think if they marked their MPC line down $20 that'd make the people who did spend that much a lot more satisfied than they are with the $79.99 price point. I think the average Alpha I purchased cost me $55 shipped. As I said, I felt the $39.99 price was perfect... but I wouldn't dream they'd ever release the new toys at that price point.

Edited February 14, 2007 by jenius

[HoveringCheesecake]

I wish I could pick up a Scott for a reasonable price. None of this SC crap. Bernard all the way.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I paid the rull $80 for my Alpha (due to shipping outside US). But yes, if I had paid say $40-50 bucks for it, I wouldn't be so angry with its faults.

Oh yeah, I wouldn't be so pissed if they didn't call it 'Masterpiece' and keep harping on 'see the AUTHENTIC RUBBER TYRES' as if its some big bloody deal.

Yeah, thats it, the damn 'RUBBER TYRE' thingy just pisses me off for some reason. Maybe because it infers that we the toy collectors have been in a cave since 1642 and have never seen rubber tyres on a toy.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[bsu legato]

Yeah, thats it, the damn 'RUBBER TYRE' thingy just pisses me off for some reason. Maybe because it infers that we the toy collectors have been in a cave since 1642 and have never seen rubber tyres on a toy.

Just be thankful that their promo blurb didn't refer to "free spinning wheels" or "articulated elbows and knees."

[Cyclone]

As the convention coverage continues, more shots are available, including almost a back shot.

http://toyfair07.asmzine.com/gallery/Toyna...tech/index.html

and no, I'm not just posting this because it has some of the best MPC Beta proto shots to date...

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

No neck joint as far as I can see, so they just painted the eyes of the rider looking up.

Edit: Changed my mind.

Edited February 15, 2007 by Lonely Soldier Boy

[eugimon]

Hmmm... looks fine all transformed.. but the bike by itself just looks weird. the back part of the book looks all squashed in.

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

Yeah. It's a shame. The bike alone has a great design (in the lineart, I mean).

[jenius]

No neck joint would be an utter shame... I'm not going to write it off as not existing until we see a final version though.

[eugimon]

No neck joint would be an utter shame... I'm not going to write it off as not existing until we see a final version though.

yeah, I'm sure there's a neck joint... it's such an obvious joint to have and will do a lot for posability when the figure is on the bike.

[Ignacio Ocamica]

Don't want to see the pics!!!

Can't the guys at Toynami realise they have my money if they make the Tread? It's looking so good

[gerwalk25]

Any speculation on how much the freaking Ride Armor is gonna cost?

[jenius]

Any speculation on how much the freaking Ride Armor is gonna cost?

Seems $79.99 is a pretty good bet at this point.

[Cyclone]

Any speculation on how much the freaking Ride Armor is gonna cost?

Yep, nothing but speculation at this point. I'm not a gambling man, but I'd think I'd be safe puting money on them having the stock Robotech MPC RRP of $80...

[myk]

I'm surprised Shadow Chronicles didn't cost $80...