FAST packs on VF's other than the VF-1

[Dante74]

I was reading the YF-19 thread the other day and started wondering about the nessecity of FAST packs on VF's other than the VF-1.

Why would the developers of suchs advanced transforming aircraft as the YF-19 and 21 need to put extra parts on it for it to fly in space or to hold missiles? It makes the FAST packs seem a bit like an afterthought to me. I can imagine that the VF-1 would need them because during that period the technology wasn't needed. (Or so they thought) The VF-1 was developed as a traditional aircraft. Space War 1 made it necessary for them to fly in space so they added the FAST packs. After that they knew that every VF made would need to be able to fly in space. Why wouldn't they incorperate the extra missiles and rockets into the VF?

My theory is that Kawamori found out that the VF-1 looked damn hot with FAST packs and wanted to capture that look with later VF designs. He even put something simular on the VF-0 in the form of extra fuel tanks on the legs.

IMO the only VF-1 that deserves FAST packs is the VF-1. They add a certain power to the design.

Any thoughts?

[Mr March]

Fuel is ALWAYS a consideration. Especially in later variable fighters that can acheive orbit without the need for external rockets and tanks. The VFs are much better off if they can extend their range while still performing these functions. Also, space is huge. Just travelling to the moon is a journey of almost 300,000 kilometers. Even with workable fusion reactors and all the advantages of OverTechnology, the distances involved in space travel are still such that fuel (or reactant if one must make the distinction) will be a major concern.

I think it's necessary to examine your reasoning for FAST Packs on the Macross variable fighters before dimissing them as unneccesary to next generation fighters. The VF-1, like all variable fighters, can operate in space and maneuver very well without FAST Packs. They are not requirements for VF-1 space flight, as the fighter already has counter-thrusters and verniers built into the design. The FAST Packs are simply a method to extend and enhance the functionality of an already spaceworthy craft.

The VF-11 and YF-19/YF-21 are far more advanced variable fighters, but they still need fuel, regardless of the thrust and efficiency advances they enjoy over the VF-1. So FAST Packs will always be a relevant option.

Design wise, I see no problem with smaller, more conformal FAST Pack sets. Real world FAST Pack sets look nothing like the big dorsal boosters on the VF-1 fighters. Doesn't mean they look terrible, just different. Real FAST Packs look more like the VF-0 conformal tanks or the YF-19/YF-21 packs. I personally love the FAST Pack set for the VF-11 Thunderbolt and actually never really cared for the VF-11 without them. I see nothing wrong with continued use of FAST Packs in smaller configurations or larger ones. They look good and make sense to me.

[jenius]

Wouldn't you use a lot less fuel in space since there's no friction slowing you down and limited gravity pulling you? Seems like a well timed burst here and there ought to keep you going and on track.

[T.V.]

Wouldn't you use a lot less fuel in space since there's no friction slowing you down and limited gravity pulling you? Seems like a well timed burst here and there ought to keep you going and on track.

The problem with FAST packs in atmospheric conditions is that they cause drag, so that makes them not particularly useful planetside.

You could make the aircraft bigger, thus heavier and having a higher Cw value, but that would make a fighter uneccesarely heavier and give poorer atmospheric performance, because you're dragging along a host of non mission specific equipment.

Optional FAST packs could be the a way to 'tune' the air-/spacecraft to the optimum for each specific mission.

Well, that's just trying to find an in continuity explanation rather than saying they look cool.

I have to say though, I don't particularly care for the FAST packs.

Often they mess up the clean lines of the VF in question and do little to make them look better.

Edited January 23, 2007 by T.V.

[Mr March]

Wouldn't you use a lot less fuel in space since there's no friction slowing you down and limited gravity pulling you? Seems like a well timed burst here and there ought to keep you going and on track.

For simple single trajectory flight sure, but when does that happen? You can hurl something toward a destination in space and it'll maintain momentum unless acted upon by another force. But therein lies the problem. Lack of friction is also a disadvantage in space flight, because without resistance, your craft has nothing to manuever against...hence no way to change course!

In space, the only way you can change course is by utilizing directional thrusters and the only way you can slow down is to use counter thrusters. Hence, more fuel. During space combat, constant maneuvering requires constant use of your thrusters and would be very fuel intensive.

[sketchley]

Good points.

Another couple of observations I have had are:

FAST packs serve as armour for the munitions stored within. Would you prefer to have your missiles exposed to micrometeorites, and stray enemy shots, or inside of a protective box? The trend from DYRL (possibly from the midpoint of SDF:M) onwards is to have all missiles stored internally.

FAST packs appear to be used only when or if a mission requires the fuel increases and (usually) the additional firepower that FAST packs add. Going by Macross 7, it appears that FAST packs are de rigeur for the VF-11, but only used during the super heaviest combat by the VF-17, VF-19, and VF-22.

My personal opinion is that visually, VFs are that much more bold and aggressive, when they have them. I don't mean the implied increase in weapons, but the 'yeah, other aircraft have to be sleek MFers, but I can carry big boxes, and still outfly them!' aggressiveness.

[jigahus]

Fuel? I thought the fighters were nuclear powered so they don't need fuel. For the AVF's 19 and 21/22 I believe the fast packs were to provide protection and armament. For the 11 it would also add to the speed as it won't be as the VF-11 is not as fast.

My 0.02 cents.

[David Hingtgen]

They need fuel for the verniers, only the main engines are nuclear.

[JB0]

They need fuel for the verniers, only the main engines are nuclear.

Don't confuse the poor guy! There's a serious misconception that needs dealing with!

The engines may "run forever" but they won't do anyone a lot of good without reaction mass to expel. The nuclear reactor doesn't supply that. It'd be like a shiny new Corvette with a full tank and no wheels.

The reaction mass, while not burnable, is a "fuel."

[sketchley]

FAST packs mostly carry fuel for the rocket engines in the FAST packs - and that fuel reserve is extremely finite! Of course, the anime screws with our minds by showing VFs constantly at max throttle for periods of time well beyond what the official stats claim. Mind you, the gun pod of the VF-1 only has 200 r, and we don't see them running out of ammo very often...

I'm not sure if the FAST packs carry reactant (good definition there, JBO) - haven't seen any cutaways with reactant fuel pod listed...

[Mr March]

Don't confuse the poor guy! There's a serious misconception that needs dealing with!

The engines may "run forever" but they won't do anyone a lot of good without reaction mass to expel. The nuclear reactor doesn't supply that. It'd be like a shiny new Corvette with a full tank and no wheels.

The reaction mass, while not burnable, is a "fuel."

Thank you JBO. As soon as I saw these responses I was going to add just this point. The fusion engines provide a sustainable power source, but the engines themselves need reaction mass to expel from the thrusters in order to provide momentum. You do indeed need reactant for that, or what one would call "fuel" in a traditional sense, and it's in finite supply. Hence, the addition of FAST Packs helps handle these concerns on a VF.

[Graham]

He even put something simular on the VF-0 in the form of extra fuel tanks on the legs.

IMO the only VF-1 that deserves FAST packs is the VF-1. They add a certain power to the design.

Any thoughts?

The leg FAST Packs on the VF-0 also have three micro-missile launchers (2 forward & 1 aft), holding eight micro-missiles per launcher IIRC.

I love the look of FAST packs on most VFs, especially the VF-11, VF-2SS, & VF-17. The only FAST packs I'm not really keen on are those used by the VF-19F/S. They look terrible in battroid mode IMO.

Graham

[Dante74]

The leg FAST Packs on the VF-0 also have three micro-missile launchers (2 forward & 1 aft), holding eight micro-missiles per launcher IIRC.

I forgot about that, sorry.

I love the look of FAST packs on most VFs, especially the VF-11, VF-2SS, & VF-17. The only FAST packs I'm not really keen on are those used by the VF-19F/S. They look terrible in battroid mode IMO.

Graham

Am I the only one here that thinks the FAST packs in their ugliest form are the ones on the VF-11?

(images borowed from http://www.steelfalcon.com/Macross/Images/index.html)

In fighter mode they look okay, but in battroid mode it's like two shoeboxes are sitting on the VF-11's back.

The design of the VF-11's battroid is quite elegant, it almost looks feminine, however, the FAST packs on it are very boxy which doesn't fit at all with the design of the VF-11. (I know there is no air friction in space so it wouldn't matter anyway)

IMO the only VF to get away with FAST packs, from a purely visual perspective, is the VF-1. Actually, it doesn't just get away with them, they really give it a more powerfull menacing profile, especially with the beam cannon.

Something about this silhouet says 'speeding train that'll stop for no one'. It's probably because it looks like it's leaning forward.

Just my two cents. (Eurocents that is )

[Zinjo]

I forgot about that, sorry.

Am I the only one here that thinks the FAST packs in their ugliest form are the ones on the VF-11?

I used to feel the same way until I saw the Kawamori fast packs he did for the VF-19 in MAc 7....~shudders~

[Duymon]

I disagree that only the VF-1 needed fast packs.

The VF-0's are supposedly an older less advanced design and their Conformal Leg Tanks are the best example of Conventional Fast Packs in the Macross World.

If I remember Correctly, VF-0's weren't running on Nuke Engines thus needed buttloads of fuel to get around.

Now the Ghost Booster? uh.. wtf is all i gotta say lol

[T.V.]

Yeah, the Ghost booster is rather WTF.

I doubt that the extra thrust of the engine would justify the added weight and drag...

That said, there is sort off a historic precedent for the configuration, if not the intended function.

Mistel - Composite Aircraft

[HoveringCheesecake]

Yeah "sort of". About the only thing similar being one aircraft on top of another. I wouldn't call that a historical precedent.

The Ju88 didn't need the 190/109 on top for power, it was for guidance.

Meh I'm sure you knew that. You're the one who posted the article. But I'd say historical precedent is stretching it.

[T.V.]

Yeah "sort of". About the only thing similar being one aircraft on top of another. I wouldn't call that a historical precedent.

The Ju88 didn't need the 190/109 on top for power, it was for guidance.

Meh I'm sure you knew that. You're the one who posted the article. But I'd say historical precedent is stretching it.

It's a joke (though apparently not a good one..)

Mistels are the exact opposite of piggyback boosters in function and carrier/host configuration.

[sketchley]

Personally, I think that the VF-11 FAST packs are second only to the VF-1's; followed, in 3rd place, by the VF-17's packs. The VF-5000's packs are also groovy too.

I do agree that the VF-19's packs are... well better best forgotten. I understand the limitations et al due to the design, but in battroid mode? Gah! It looks like the thing is doing a balancing act, and I'm certain that it's mobility suffers.

Also, it should be mentioned that the engine nacelle packs on the VF-11D Kai have reverse firing missile launchers too. Me thinks the VF-0 is merely following in that design tradition (though, in series timeline-wise, it's the opposite; which begs the question: where'd they go on all the other FAST packs? )

[HoveringCheesecake]

It's a joke (though apparently not a good one..)

Mistels are the exact opposite of piggyback boosters in function and carrier/host configuration.

Oh, sorry. I know what Mistels are... but I do know that you are already becoming known as the second aircraft genius around here. Along with David.

Say, does anyone have a site with some good line art of the various VF's? The Compendium is kind of lacking in that respect. (or I'm looking in the wrong spot)

Edited January 26, 2007 by meh_cd

[sketchley]

Compendium is lacking...

Some places to start looking for lineart (though don't expect lineart only):

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/macross.htm

http://unsd.macrossroleplay.org/

http://www.macrossroleplay.org/Sketchley/Statistics.htm

http://www.orbital-art.net/unspacy_qmtdb/

[HoveringCheesecake]

Wow! Thanks. Those are great links. Looks like I'm going to have to get ahold of Macross Plus and Macross 7.

[briscojr84]

Wow! Thanks. Those are great links. Looks like I'm going to have to get ahold of Macross Plus and Macross 7.

Try this link actually www.un-spacy-qmtdb.com

It's a way better version than my old Orbital site.

[Scream Man]

ive always thought it interesting that the vf-1 Fps felt more a a part of the plane than the others. the zeros conformal tanks are different, but are rarely not attached to the mecha. the 11, 17,19 and 21/22 all ave the FPs, but dont feel quite as.....apart of thevalk i guess. as much intregrated into the design.

the vf-1 packs substantial change the look and configuation of the plane mode. The rest just kinda attach.

[HoveringCheesecake]

Alright, I saw Macross Plus. I don't know why everyone likes it so much... it was okay. I might rank it a little higher than M:Zero overall (but not the battle scenes) because of the background it gives on UN Spacy post Space War 1. The scene with the VF-11's at the beginning was neat as well.

I was surprised that Guld didn't tear the General's head off when he called him a half breed.

I wasn't a fan of any of the mecha though. They seemed like a step down from the streamlined VF-1. *shrug*

[Mr March]

Now I've seen it all. The VF-1 more streamlined than the YF-19/21? Oh my gawd...

[JB0]

The YF-21 is the sexiest VF there is.

[briscojr84]

Plus the fact that it screams don't mess with me [at least in fighter mode anyway], too bad they dropped the morphing wings on the production model.

[HoveringCheesecake]

Now I've seen it all. The VF-1 more streamlined than the YF-19/21? Oh my gawd...

Perhaps I should have said "clean". The new ones are a mess. The uniboob never ceases to make me laugh.

I definitely prefer the YF-21 to the YF-19, but both are fugly. Morphing wings? Ugh.

Only Isamu saved the series. He was awesome.

[Zinjo]

Plus the fact that it screams don't mess with me [at least in fighter mode anyway], too bad they dropped the morphing wings on the production model.

That and retaining that STUPID bubble canopy! SK drew both types, the Brainwave canopy and a regular conopy for Mac Plus, why the directory of Mac 7 went with a variation of the bubble canopy is beyond me!