Battroid Height significance question

[gian7675]

I'm not sure if this was asked before but...

I'm not sure if it was mentioned in Macross but in Robotech, the battroid's height was designed to be in that specific height to match the Zentraedi attackers. It's logical that if you're small (humans), and you have a big enemy(Zentraedi), at least you'll want to be the same height (or bigger than) as your enemy so thus the Battroids was made to the height of the Zentraedi.

Ok, rewind to Macross 0. The VF-0 Battroids of the UN Spacey were bigger in height than the VF-1 style Battroids. Why? Similar reasoning. Probably to match the height of the SV-51 Battroids.

Now...since the VF-0 battroids were larger than the VF-1 Battroids, why didn't UN Spacey keep the height of the VF-0 Battroids in designing the VF-1s?

Going to Macross Plus, the Valks got bigger again, roughly the same size as the original VF-0 Battroids.

Why switch heights if you already had a big advantage over the enemy with the original VF-0 Battroid height? They could have made mince meat of the Zentraedi in the Macross series.

If the reasoning is that Macross 0 was made just recently...then why didn't Kawamori made the VF-0 the same size as the VF-1?

[JsARCLIGHT]

If I was to guess? Technology gets smaller with advancement.

If I had to sum it up in a word? That word would be retcon.

[kensei]

I do not much about the size of the other Valks, but in reference to the relationship between the VF-1 and the VF-0, the Zero was made as a fill-in fighter that featured similar construction and design to the VF-1. But the VF-0 had to be made bigger to accommodate for the larger conformal fuel tanks that the VF-0s Engines had to have, because the Reaction engines designed for the VF-1 weren't ready yet.

[sketchley]

Kensei got it. The development of the thermonuclear engines for the VF-1 was delayed somehow, and the existing VF-1 plans were made bigger to fit overtuned conventional engines, and the fuel needed for the engines to operate.

[gian7675]

If I was to guess? Technology gets smaller with advancement.

If I had to sum it up in a word? That word would be retcon.

Hi! That was my first thought too but what about Macross Plus? The valks were bigger again.

Kensei: I forgot about the fuel tank thing issue of the VF-0s. Makes sense

[kensei]

Kensei got it. The development of the thermonuclear engines for the VF-1 was delayed somehow, and the existing VF-1 plans were made bigger to fit overtuned conventional engines, and the fuel needed for the engines to operate.

I'd like to have an explanation for the rest of the technologies, such as the removal (assumed) of the fully sick anti-missile defense that tracks the pilots eye and links it to the head laser targeting computer.

Edited January 22, 2007 by kensei

[Knight26]

As for why valks got bigger again after teh VF-1, that is simple, the engines got bigger and so did the primary opponent. The VF-1 was designed to have to fight zentraedi out of their pods and armor, however once the UN Spacy saw how big the pods and armor were they made sure to make their valks larger in order to be able to fight them more effectively. Afterall a zent or melt in power armor is much larger then a VF-1.

[JsARCLIGHT]

Hi! That was my first thought too but what about Macross Plus? The valks were bigger again.

Not to mention their designs where wildly different than the previous generations of variable fighters. The stuff in Macross is like any other big robot show, the designs change with the times we live in and reflect the current styles of real world fighter aircraft and other design trends. The VF-0 to me is nothing more than a retconned, redesigned and "modernized" VF-1 with nice sharp "modern design" edges and angles. I still find it humorous how much more "modern" and advanced the VF-0 appears in the show than the VF-1 does in the original show yet they still kneecap it by things like "conventional engines" and the like... it's like fighter design massively jumped forward, then fell backwards, then jumped forward again and continued to yo-yo like that inside one unit. It's got crazy advanced weapon tracking computers with eyeball movement recognition and the like but it still uses gas engines. Then when they finally get the nuke powerplants they remove the great computer targeting systems and other advanced goodies. It makes no sense... unless you view it all as a retcon.

In the end the shows will always reflect the current trends of the time they where made in. Big, Small... doesn't really matter that much. I think the lines of Kawamori saying "OOOoooooooh! Joint Strike Fighter! F22! F117 Stealth Fighter! The new valks need to look like THAT!" are more apt than any sort of "logical development" through the series. Then they add in other "oooooooh cool" gizmos and stuff and just keep the ball rolling. Who cares if continuity wise the new design is supposed to exist before the other old stuff, which by logic would make it a simpler design. It's the same problem Gundam suffers from... so many retconned stories added into the continuity with new, crazy-nuts advanced units being built before or side by side with ancient stone age units... after a while people like me give up trying to put logic to it all. It looks cool... that's about as logical as it gets.

[lechuck]

Actually all of the Gundams grow steadily in size up to the RX-93 Nu Gundam. After that SNRI takes over from Anaheim and we have smaller Gundams again like F91. This works better than what we have for Macross

I think the size difference between VF-1 and VF-0 is hard to swallow because both the Valks more or less existed at same time with completely different designs, but are supposed to be somewhat alike.

Now I'm not an aerospace engineer or anything, but I don't really buy the explanation for big size of the VF-0 because of conventional engines. If the VF-0 was designed with the reaction engines in mind from the start then wouldn't the Valk be smaller in the first place?

Anyway it's the sole reason why I hate prequels. They contribute nothing except give everybody headaches.

[Hurin]

It's very simple. . . just because you're building a giant mechanized soldier to combat giant humanoids, you don't have to make your mechanized soldier the exact same size as the humanoid you hope to combat. Other design considerations should come first.

The VF-1 was actually substantially taller than the average Zentraedi.

[EXO]

It's very simple. . . just because you're building a giant mechanized soldier to combat giant humanoids, you don't have to make your mechanized soldier the exact same size as the humanoid you hope to combat. Other design considerations should come first.

The VF-1 was actually substantially taller than the average Zentraedi.

I was about to say that... and at the point they were at in Macross Plus and Macross 7 they were no longer fighting giant soldiers, but other giant mechs.

Plus you have to consider anime magic, everytime they walk up or fight a Zentradi, they are the same height as the battroids and whenever they encounter someone from a pod, then those giants are comparable to a man that is 5' tall.

[Hurin]

[Mr March]

Most responses to this thread have already covered the major points, but I'll embelish some considerations that I don't think have been discussed enough. A simple explanation might be battroid size is determined by the nature of the aircraft design. If you want to build an aircraft to fulfill certain operational needs, it will need to be a certain size. So your fighter may be big or small by virtue of what aircraft technology you have, what aircraft know-how you currently possess and what you need the aircraft to do.

If you build an F-16 sized variable fighter, you're going to have a battroid mode that's scalable with a 14.8 meter long craft. If you build an F-14 sized variable fighter, obviously the battroid mode is going to be much larger because the craft is 18.6 meters long. This is all ignoring transformation schemes of course.

So bascially, it has nothing to do with continuity. Modern militaries use fighter aircraft of all different sizes and they don't necessarily follow a linear increase/decrease in size as decades go by. Macross actually features a better continuity than most giant robot franchises like Gundam because variable sizes for weapons of warfare is much more akin to what happens in a real military over time.

Edited January 22, 2007 by Mr March

[HoveringCheesecake]

I don't buy the different engine story with the VF-0, either.

I agree with JsARCLIGHT. Retcon retcon retcon...

[Mr March]

I don't even know how much is truely retroactive continuity and how much isn't. IMO, fans take too much damned stock in official trivia that was never intended to set unfilmed/unanimated events in stone. Fictional history and backstory is a flexible guide at best and I really didn't understand why so many fans screamed bloody murder when Macross Zero retold some history everyone had taken for granted.

I guess I'm just a fan who'd rather see an animated prequel that re-tells franchise history than hold up some two-sentance long, twenty year old piece of trivia from my fan encyclopedia and cry foul.

[HoveringCheesecake]

Before M:Zero I knew NOTHING about the VF-0. I thought that the VF-0 was the non-variable test bed. I just think that it's strange to say that larger engines is the reason that the thing is so huge. I'm assuming that since the airframe was enlarged that all of the mechanical components for Battroid had to be enlarged as well. Seems like a lot of work for something that they knew was only a testbed... they already had their final model.

[Mr March]

I can only speculate, but isn't it a universal that smaller is always more difficult and expensive? The smaller the object built the more costly the miniaturization. The VF-0 was a stopgap, a compromise and a cheap way to get out the variable fighter faster. It was easier, faster and cheaper to build the larger, less efficient VF-0 variable mecha with conventional engines and thus, have it ready to fly and fight sooner.

[T.V.]

You could argue, all sillyness aside, that the VF-0 is sort of an YF-22 made ready for combat, while the VF-1 is more like the F-22, with the VF-X and VF-X-1 being subsequent F-22 EMD machines.

It's like the VF-1 was being planned with future technological breakthroughs in mind - just as happens with current aviation programs such as the X-35 -> F-35 - only to find out that certain elements of the technology weren't ready when needed.

Instead, they drew up plans for an interim solution, based on the technology that was already available from the VF-X project.

They kept the resulting VF-0 as close as possible as could be to the VF-1, while incorperation elements of less advanced nature.

This may sound crazy, but this actually does happen in the real world as well, albeit in a less exxagerated fashion.

For example, the F-35B program ran into serious trouble, because the aircraft unexpectedly grew beyond the target weight and/or put too much stress on the vertical lift system.

This forced Lockheed Martin to give the F-35 a diet, putting the programme somewhat behind schedule.

It's simply difficult to manage and oversee future engineering solutions, even though you may want to incorporate then in a project.

Another analogy is the Chinese J-10 fighter.

This aircraft relies pretty much on proven aluminun structures, instead of the more common exotic composite materials typically found in 4th and 5th generation Western combat aircraft.

Infact, the Isreali Lavi programme of the '80s, which has influenced the J-10 significantly, made use of said composite materials, enabling to build a smaller and lighter airframe.

Of course, the roles of the Lavi and J-10 are somewhat different, but the J-10 is significantly bigger partly because it has to mate a similar aerodynamic configuration with older and less advanced construction techniques.

[Zinjo]

I don't even know how much is truely retroactive continuity and how much isn't. IMO, fans take too much damned stock in official trivia that was never intended to set unfilmed/unanimated events in stone. Fictional history and backstory is a flexible guide at best and I really didn't understand why so many fans screamed bloody murder when Macross Zero retold some history everyone had taken for granted.

I guess I'm just a fan who'd rather see an animated prequel that re-tells franchise history than hold up some two-sentance long, twenty year old piece of trivia from my fan encyclopedia and cry foul.

Well you, me and Kawamori agree...

Hence why SK doesn't allow himself to be bound by continuity gestapos. If the back story needs to be changed to accomodate a current project, then so be it...

[thegunny]

The VF-1 was designed to have to fight zentraedi out of their pods and armor, however once the UN Spacy saw how big the pods and armor were they made sure to make their valks larger in order to be able to fight them more effectively. Afterall a zent or melt in power armor is much larger then a VF-1.

How did UN Spacy design the Valk to fight an enemy they didn't know existed until they come knocking on the front door in the first episode

[jenius]

How did UN Spacy design the Valk to fight an enemy they didn't know existed until they come knocking on the front door in the first episode

The doorways in the SDF-1.

[mister_e]

How did UN Spacy design the Valk to fight an enemy they didn't know existed until they come knocking on the front door in the first episode

Because they knew, based on the interior of the SDF-1, the general size of the aliens that had previously inhabited it

[JsARCLIGHT]

Popular theory is they learned about the Zentradi from the wreckage of the ASS-1. Of course it would have been nice to actually see that rather than a bunch of floating rocks and birdmen in Macross Zero but far be it for me to complain.

Also just to clear up my line of talking I was not really speaking to size differences in the valks but more or less the massive varied general technology differences. To me, a common shmo with no real knowledge of fighter planes and their linages, it appeared that the VF-0 was vastly superior to the VF-1... it had fancy pupil tracking computers for weapons handling, it had fancy 180 or 360 degree cockpit screens in battroid, it appeared to have a much more complex transformation cycle (even though it was effectively the same) and above all it appeared more "modern" and "high tech" than the now dated design of the VF-1. It just seems to me to be a move backwards from this awesome eyeball tracking targeting computer full frontal screen in battroid fancy sharp edges with little jaggie things design to this very dated, rounded, "soft" design that lacked all the fancy computer and cockpit options.

To put it in terms I and "car people" understand, if the VF-1 was a 1957 Chevy Bel Air and the VF-22 was a 2007 Corvette I was expecting the VF-0 to be a 1934 Chevy Five Window Coupe... instead it was a 1969 Camaro Z-28 with Cross Ram induction... in other words the VF-0 appears to me to be vastly technologically superior to the VF-1, fuel drive engines or no.

[Hurin]

. . . Thus all the tortured means by which rabid fans (with some help from Kawamori) have "explained" the more modern functionality and appearance of the VF-0 (ie, it not being a precursor to VF-1 but instead a test-bed for even more futuristic systems, etc.).

But, of course, the real reason the VF-0 is more modern than the VF-1 is because Kawamori designed it twenty years after he designed the VF-1 and was more interested in designing an appealing, kick-ass variable fighter that might help Macross Zero succeed in the anime marketplace than he was in maintaining continuity with his twenty year-old VF-1 design that looks very dated by today's standards.

[Nied]

This has been a pet peve of mine for a while.

1.) The VF-0 doesn't have a 360 degree wrap around cockpit. we see a sort of stylized shot in the first episode that gave everyone the misconception that it did, but later shots (and indeed a close look at that shot) show that it uses plain old flip down screens like the VF-1.

2.) There's no evidence that the VF-1 and later model valks lack the eye tracking system in their helmets they just aren't explicitly shown. We do see them shoot down incoming missiles in the exact same manner as Roy's VF-0 so there's no reason to conclude they don't have the same or similar system installed.

As for size I think Mr March hit it on the head. The VF-0 was a technology demonstrator, it was supposed to prove that you could build a plane and make it transform into a working mech. They only had working conventional engines at the time so they built it to a size that could fly using conventional engines. The VF-1 was built to match what was thought to be the size of a standard Zentradi (the UN had no way of knowing that Zentradi came in two sizes) which could only be accomplished using more advanced propulsion technology. If I had to guess I'd say that later Valks like the VF-17, VF-19 and VF-22 were designed bigger to overpower Quedelun-Rau and Nousjedul-Ger battlesuits.

[Nied]

. . . Thus all the tortured means by which rabid fans (with some help from Kawamori) have "explained" the more modern functionality and appearance of the VF-0 (ie, it not being a precursor to VF-1 but instead a test-bed for even more futuristic systems, etc.).

But, of course, the real reason the VF-0 is more modern than the VF-1 is because Kawamori designed it twenty years after he designed the VF-1 and was more interested in designing an appealing, kick-ass variable fighter that might help Macross Zero succeed in the anime marketplace than he was in maintaining continuity with his twenty year-old VF-1 design that looks very dated by today's standards.

You actually see that kind of thing all the time. just because a technology is invented doesn't mean its mature enough to be put into production in the thousands of numbers the VF-1 was built in. Real world example the YF-22 prototype used advanced touch screen displays, but the F-22A uses more conventional buttons because the technology didn't work very well. The F-35 on the other hand is slated to get the more mature and workable version of the same technology.

Wee actually see that in the anime. The VF-0 is constantly being worked on, overhauled, and upgraded with jury rigged solutions. The Asuka is supposed to have several squadrons of them but they only seem to be able to get a handful airborne at any given time. Sure it might have a few bits of advanced design and technology but what good is that if they land them in the hangar all the time?

[Hurin]

You can force those square pegs into round holes all day long. But the fact remains that the VF-0 has more modern capabilities and looks more modern because it was designed by Kawamori recently and he wanted to do something cool/modern rather than constrain himself to what would make sense within existing Macross continuity.

Theres nothing wrong with retroactively fixing the continuity. But let's all be adults and recognize the reasons we have to do so.

[JB0]

Am I the only person that never felt the VF-0 looked more modern?

It always struck me as little more than a "detailed-up" VF-1.

[thegunny]

Because they knew, based on the interior of the SDF-1, the general size of the aliens that had previously inhabited it

The doorways in the SDF-1.

True some areas of the ship were "giant sized" but why would you design your premium front line state of the art fighter based on the size of a couple of doors in an alien ship that you had no idea where it came from on the off chance that the doors were for beings and not some sort of vehicle?

In answer to the original question, it was probably done so fluff freaks on sites like this could speculate the topic to death

[Scream Man]

Am I the only person that never felt the VF-0 looked more modern?

It always struck me as little more than a "detailed-up" VF-1.

me too essentially. Theres a story behind it, and thats fine. I just dont delve into the details too much and Im happy

[lechuck]

As for size I think Mr March hit it on the head. The VF-0 was a technology demonstrator, it was supposed to prove that you could build a plane and make it transform into a working mech. They only had working conventional engines at the time so they built it to a size that could fly using conventional engines. The VF-1 was built to match what was thought to be the size of a standard Zentradi (the UN had no way of knowing that Zentradi came in two sizes) which could only be accomplished using more advanced propulsion technology. If I had to guess I'd say that later Valks like the VF-17, VF-19 and VF-22 were designed bigger to overpower Quedelun-Rau and Nousjedul-Ger battlesuits.

Are you sure about this?

You see the VF-0 was designed to run with the reaction engines in the first place, meaning the VF-0s size was big from the get go, and not because of the conventional engines. And at the same time we've got the VF-1 being developed, very small in comparison to the zero.

Before Zero the growth of Valks was more natural, UN Spacy learning from their mistakes and developing Valks that can not only match giant aliens but also their armor. But the introduction of the VF-0s spoils this making VF-1s size seems like an oversight or like a thought process never finished. Designed it to fight giant aliens, but forgot that those aliens might have fighters or power suit themselves???

Edited January 23, 2007 by lechuck

[RDClip]

2.) There's no evidence that the VF-1 and later model valks lack the eye tracking system in their helmets they just aren't explicitly shown. We do see them shoot down incoming missiles in the exact same manner as Roy's VF-0 so there's no reason to conclude they don't have the same or similar system installed.

I agree 100% on that. That is pretty much the best way we can answer that one. As for everything else, the level of technology of the VF-1 was dependant on how much money Studio Nue had to animate with and the animation technology at the time. SDF Macross was made on a bare-bones budget, a very limited time frame and (by today's standards) primative animation. I'm sure if they had millions to spare, an unlimited schedual, and 21st century animation technology; the VF-1 would have had much more cool features.

Case in point: the Valks look much more advanced in DYRL than the original series.

As for the taller VF-0, i can buy the explaination they gave in Zer0, pretty easily. It doesn't sound that implausible.

Edited January 23, 2007 by RDClip

[sketchley]

True some areas of the ship were "giant sized" but why would you design your premium front line state of the art fighter based on the size of a couple of doors in an alien ship that you had no idea where it came from on the off chance that the doors were for beings and not some sort of vehicle?

What we know from the anime is that most, if not all, of the ASS-1 was giant sized. What we haven't seen, but is directly implied, is that there were remains of the crew on board. These remains could have been burnt corpses. Even something as small as a bone fragment would have given clues as to the size of the crew. Another thing is the size of the facilities (washroom, bed, uniforms, hand held equipment, etc.) that must be taken into consideration.

Therefore, the anime says the VF-1 was built to be the same size as the aliens (Zentraedi), therefore they knew. That works for me.

Are you sure about this?

You see the VF-0 was designed to run with the reaction engines in the first place, meaning the VF-0s size was big from the get go, and not because of the conventional engines. And at the same time we've got the VF-1 being developed, very small in comparison to the zero.

Before Zero the growth of Valks was more natural, UN Spacy learning from their mistakes and developing Valks that can not only match giant aliens but also their armor. But the introduction of the VF-0s spoils this making VF-1s size seems like an oversight or like a thought process never finished. Designed it to fight giant aliens, but forgot that those aliens might have fighters or power suit themselves???

The VF-0 was NOT designed for the thermonuclear engines. The only reason the VF-0 exists is because it was a trial production model and testbed for advanced jet engines and Overtechnology designed for future variable fighters.

The only reason it was deployed for actual combat and functional testing, was because delivery of the VF-1 Valkyrie variable fighter's thermonuclear reaction engines were delayed - thus the production of the VF-1 was delayed (you could go so far as to say that the VF-1 was being manufactured at the time, units being finished, but they had no powerplant - no engines.)

http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat.../vf0/index.html

The same page also states:

"Two EGF-127 custom overtuned conventional turbofan jet engines, each rated at 91.08 kN and 148.9 kN with afterburning. (Future variable fighters will incorporate thermonuclear reaction engines that are under development.) Due to its less efficient engines, the VF-0 has considerably shorter range, more delicate handling, and longer airframe compared to the VF-1. (Engine nacelles are comparatively longer to accommodate the earlier engine design.) "

The body was also enlarged to make more room for fuel. Thus: bigger body.

[hutch]

Has it ever been stated whether there were any enemy mecha on the SDF when it crashed?

[HoveringCheesecake]

Screw these explanations. They might seem reasonable to some, but I'm going to jump on the retcon wagon and get the heck out of here.

It doesn't strike anyone as odd that UN SPACY would waste resources on producing the VF-0 and the VF-1 at the same time?

I prefer to think of it as an advanced VF-1. That makes me warm and fuzzy inside. Plus Roy doesn't die in M:Zero.

EDIT: Exactly how big is the UN in Macross? I'll have to check the compendum and see if they have info. I know the Anti-UN is Russia for sure... anyone else? If the UN was huge then I guess having two airframes wouldn't be too difficult.

Edited January 23, 2007 by meh_cd