Ghost in the Shell Live Action - March 31, 2017

[Duke Togo]

Let me put this out there. My beef isn't the casting of Ms. Johannson in the role. That was a foregone conclusion which we noted at the start of this which the interwebs is only finding out about now (Really?). My issue is with the whole test VFX to make a character look "more Asian", which is something I find troubling. It's the potential to do this to any actor's/actress' character, not just to Ms. Johannson or this movie. The thought that this was even considered brings things back to the 1920s when it was done with traditional makeup instead of with a computer.

Now this I agree with.

[renegadeleader1]

So, are we allowed to riot if they make the Tachikomas the wrong shade of blue?

FOR THE LAST DAMN TIME THEY'RE FUCHIKOMAS AND THEY ARE RED!!!

[JB0]

FOR THE LAST DAMN TIME THEY'RE FUCHIKOMAS AND THEY ARE RED!!!

Thank you. Saved me the trouble of saying it.

[kajnrig]

Now this I agree with.

As do I. But this indicates that the studio wanted the character to be Asian. That being the case, then again why did they not simply cast an Asian actress in the first place? But you know what? Don't answer that. In fact, that's a rhetorical question.

The answer is obvious, and I and others have already stated: For pragmatism's sake. The problem, and one that the majority of white people and/or members of this board - including and especially the guy who made that ignorant "whitesplaining" video (and yeah har har this thread is useless now but nobody had a problem with that word being used until I was the one using it) - don't get, is that it is pragmatic AND racist. And, in fact, racism has MADE pragmatism racist. Not in all cases, but certainly in this one. They wanted an Asian character, but they cast a white actress instead. The net effect of that, regardless of the reasoning or intent, is that another job gets taken away from another Asian actress and given to another white one, and another Asian character is presented to the world as white (and we've all seen how hard it is for white people to let go of White Jesus), and in every possible way white people are advantaged and Asians are not.

People want to believe that racism is just about thinking, the mentality that this race is better than that race, but see, when scientists talk about racism (and social justice advocates have borrowed that academic language), they are talking about racism the same way an economist would talk about capitalism and communism and socialism. These -isms. Sets of ideas about how the world is and should be, AND the systems of law and social policy put in place to make the real world fit those ideas. America is a capitalist society. We not only collectively believe that private individuals can claim ownership and that competition for profit is good, we have enacted laws and created institutions that protect private property and competition and profit. Racism is no different. America is a racist society. Throughout the entirety of its history it was designed to advantage a white man over his colored brethren. Why do Hollywood metrics say that casting a white person instead of an Asian person is the pragmatic decision? Because of racism.

But even IF the studio didn't want an Asian Motoko, even IF Motoko is based on Westerners, and even IF they were just doing a straight adaptation, so what? There is more "in-universe" reason, more credible "source material" justification--hell, more meta justification for casting this ONE film with an Asian actress than there ever was for 90 years and four dozen movies of White Charlie Chan. If this ONE movie casts an Asian person in a white role instead of the last fifty movies that cast a white person in an Asian role, what is the great harm? People were up in arms over Idris Elba as Heimdal; tell me what the great harm has been.

It's not that you supposedly don't know what you're talking about, renegadeleader1, it's that we're talking about two distinct things, and you're saying that because yours is true mine isn't.

It's only a problem if you don't know the source material? Right. And I'm sure "Birth of a Nation" is only problematic if you don't know about the Klan.

But I'm done. I've said my piece on the matter already, and more than what I should have needed to say, and even then it likely still won't convince any of you otherwise, so it's time to extricate myself from the nest of vipers that this thread has become and go talk about the third episode of Delta.

[SchizophrenicMC]

All I'm saying is, crying race about the one moving with racially appropriate casting is only going to hurt the argument when people want to call out movies with racially inappropriate casting.

Actually to add to that, everyone's whinging about Scarlett Johansson being cast as a presumably Asian woman with a white robot body, and nobody's said anything about very Danish Pilou Absaek being cast as Batou. (Which I feel is not only ethnically inappropriate to a much more Japanese character, but just not really good casting) Kind of sheds light on the weekend activist side to all of this. Instead of informing themselves of the specific issues with this specific film, people have jumped on a general racism bandwagon and want to cry out about headlines. Even within the scope of this one movie, people have missed the point.

[Negotiator]

bottom line, there is no green light for Gits without someone to sell tickets.

[Big s]

She body swaps every now and then so maybe her Japanese body meets an unfortunate end and a future black widow fan dies in a non scarring way and their ya go non Japanese Motoko.

Or she just grew up on the air base and just has a distant relative.

[JB0]

But even IF the studio didn't want an Asian Motoko, even IF Motoko is based on Westerners, and even IF they were just doing a straight adaptation, so what? There is more "in-universe" reason, more credible "source material" justification--hell, more meta justification for casting this ONE film with an Asian actress than there ever was for 90 years and four dozen movies of White Charlie Chan. If this ONE movie casts an Asian person in a white role instead of the last fifty movies that cast a white person in an Asian role, what is the great harm? People were up in arms over Idris Elba as Heimdal; tell me what the great harm has been.

The point is that this is a ridiculous place to make a stand and stoke the flames of righteous indignation.

People are angry that a character who was intended by her creator to appear as a westerner, is being portrayed by a westerner, acting as though it is a deep affront to everything the franchise ever stood for, often while demonstrating a shocking ignorance of the franchise. That is the "so what".

And now the defense is that it doesn't matter if the argument is wrong, we should be outraged that this one character was cast correctly because it will offset a chronic history of blatant racism. That's a pretty bad position to be holding, it ALWAYS matters if the argument is right.

Now, to be clear, I am not saying Hollywood does not have a race problem. They do. They have an INSANE race problem. But the major is not an example of this problem. And in fact, there seem to be more asian roles in this film than the last DECADE of Hollywood releases, so it would seem to be part of the solution from where I'm sitting.

It is certainly a far cry from Star Trek: Into Darkness casting a genetically-engineered super-indian as british(which was not just whitewashing, but blatantly and overtly racist even if one is ignorant of the two nations' shared history, and I don't know how they weren't absolutely crucified over it). And yet, there seems to be MORE anger over Ghost, because anime fans.

it's time to extricate myself from the nest of vipers that this thread has become

Hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss.

[Duke Togo]

There may be another reason why they were dabbling with altering her look with cgi: she's a cyborg who can (and does) change bodies and parts.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Whose robot body is violently ripped apart on more than one occasion.

[M'Kyuun]

Whose robot body is violently ripped apart on more than one occasion.

I hope there's some of that in this movie, as it sells the fact that her body is indeed mechanical despite appearances. And, it looks badass. My concern at this point is how the story will be handled, since GiTS is generally replete with politics, philosophy, and all sorts of manipulations and convolutions of both, against a backdrop of cybercrime. Theses are at the essence of the franchise, and I fear that for the sake of a probable PG-13 rating, this will devolve into just another stripped down action movie with little depth or maturity. In the end, I fear that it will be Ghost in the Shell in name only.

I'm curious who's doing the special effects: if ILM, I fear all the think tanks and such will end up looking like Bayformers, since that seems to be their preferred aesthetic for nearly everything mechanical. As such, I hope Weta are involved.

[electric indigo]

IMDB lists the Moving Picture Company and Pixmondo as VFX supplier, but no signs of WETA artists so far. Some people come from GotG.

http://artofpo.blogspot.de/

http://www.jbachdesign.blogspot.de/

[Big s]

I'm actually curious about which way the mechanical designs will go. Will they be more anime/manga style or more American and will it include mecha or just cybernetics.

[JB0]

I'm actually curious about which way the mechanical designs will go. Will they be more anime/manga style or more American and will it include mecha or just cybernetics.

And will they have real-world guns or are people gonna be packin' Seburos? Because Shirow draws some cool guns.

[electric indigo]

Someone at IMDB suggested that this would be perfect Michael Mann material - cities at night, lots of guns, hypnotic soundtrack, slow pacing and explosive bursts of action.

[Mr March]

As awful as Michael Mann's films have become, he might not be the worst choice compared to those currently attached to the project. Still, the fella doing the Blade Runner sequel, Denis Villeneuve, would have been the perfect director choice for something like this, IMO. That Canadian knows how to direct introspective, hypnotic and carefully paced films.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Mr March

[Warmaker]

No one cares, and most of the people who are mad about this haven't read the manga or seen any of the anime, and almost certainly have no idea who Masamune Shirow is.

Oh my, this is sad. Very, very sad.

[Duke Togo]

As awful as Michael Mann's films have become, he might not be the worst choice compared to those currently attached to the project. Still, the fella doing the Blade Runner sequel, Denis Villeneuve, would have been the perfect director choice for something like this, IMO. That Canadian knows how to direct introspective, hypnotic and carefully paced films.

But that would mean pulling him off of BR2, so no, I can't get behind that.

[peter]

The idea of casting SJ in the role of Kusanagi is semi-acceptable for me because in the story, it's supposedly possible to transfer your mind/essence/ghost over to other synthetic bodies. Not a deal breaker for me, but not ideal.

Other examples hypothetically speaking, not so much. For example, if Toby McQuire was cast in the role of Hikaru Ichijo in Macross when the character is clearly Japanese. Or Leonardo DiCaprio in Akira as Kaneda, when the entire film is set in Japan and most of the characters are clearly Japanese (I think they were thinking about relocating it to New York, but still calling it Akira?). Dragon Ball Z was utterly unwatchable, and same goes for 47 Ronin starring John Wick (not knocking Keannu Reaves - John Wick was a pretty sick film).

Kung Fu with David Carradine was a big WTF, but whatever, I still watched it when I was little, lol!

Imagine if they cast Donny Yen as John Clark in a Rainbow Six film? Sure, Mr. Yen is a great action star, but John Clark/Kelly is definitely a white dude.

[Duke Togo]

Other examples hypothetically speaking, not so much. For example, if Toby McQuire was cast in the role of Hikaru Ichijo in Macross when the character is clearly Japanese.

Good ol' brown-haired and blue-eyed Hikaru Ichijo. So very Japanese!

Edited April 25, 2016 by Duke Togo

[peter]

Good ol' brown-haired and blue-eyed Hikaru Ichijo. So very Japanese!

Ah, contact lenses and dyed hair, like that never happens in Japan.

Anyway, would you be happy if Toby played Hikaru? Or how about Samuel L. Jackson play Roy and Scarlet Johannnsen plays Claudia?

If Toby was playing Rick Hunter, no problems, I couldn't give two $hits, but Hikaru? No way.

Edited April 25, 2016 by peter

[Duke Togo]

Of course not, but let's not pretend that many of the Asian characters in SDF Macross look anything but Caucasian.

Edited April 25, 2016 by Duke Togo

[peter]

Of course not, but let's not pretend that many of the Asian characters in SDF Macross look anything but Caucasian.

Nope, not pretending. Misa Hayase's character is supposedly ethinically Japanese, but she could easliy pass for a Lisa Hayes, lol!

And Max....not really sure what's going on with that guy......

[Duke Togo]

Nope, not pretending. Misa Hayase's character is supposedly ethinically Japanese, but she could easliy pass for a Lisa Hayes, lol!

And Max....not really sure what's going on with that guy......

Well, he's European. Just sayin'.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Are we still going on about the race thing? Is that really what we're worried about, and not the fact that a hollywood studio is making an anime adaptation? Forget skin colors and face shapes for a minute, can we freak out at the great prospect that we're going to get shell-in-the-name-only?

[JB0]

Anyway, would you be happy if Toby played Hikaru? Or how about Samuel L. Jackson play Roy and Scarlet Johannnsen plays Claudia?

I was cool with mister Jackson playing Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD.

I think he'd actually be a good choice for a live-action Roy Focker.

[kajnrig]

"The race thing." Snerk.

Don't worry, I'm not here to stir things up again; lord knows folks here seem allergic to the topic. Anyway:

I was cool with mister Jackson playing Nick Fury, Agent of SHIELD.

I think he'd actually be a good choice for a live-action Roy Focker.

MCU Nick Fury was based on the "new" Nick Fury design, who was himself based on Mr. Jackson.

Of course not, but let's not pretend that many of the Asian characters in SDF Macross look anything but Caucasian.

Just to reiterate: Anime characters are obviously Asian if you're Asian, and obviously White if you're White.

[Duke Togo]

Just to reiterate: Anime characters are obviously Asian if you're Asian, and obviously White if you're White.

No, I'm sorry, Hikaru and Misa have Caucasian features. Brown hair and blue eyes so not an Asian make. By your logic, Claudia is an anime character, so she must obviously be Asian.

As for GitS, as stated previously, Shirow designed these characters to have a distinctly Weatern look. That's the intention of the creator himself.

[JB0]

"The race thing." Snerk.

Don't worry, I'm not here to stir things up again; lord knows folks here seem allergic to the topic. Anyway:

MCU Nick Fury was based on the "new" Nick Fury design, who was himself based on Mr. Jackson.

Just to reiterate: Anime characters are obviously Asian if you're Asian, and obviously White if you're White.

I thought it was the other way around, that the new Fury was a response to the movie Fury's popularity.

*looks it up*

It's actually both ways. Ultimate Fury was based on Jackson years before Fury appeared in a movie(because he's always been awesome), then they cast Jackson for the movies(because he's awesome), then they replaced mainline Fury with his illegitimate son that looks like Jackson so he would match the wildly-popular movie Fury.

Either way, they didn't just go "You know what'd make good narrative sense? If Nick Fury's long-lost son was Samuel Jackson, because he looks so british."

[Big s]

Most of macross is filled with characters that are not Asian, I'm not even a hundred percent Hikaru is full Japanese. As far as Ghost in the Shell goes most of the characters look like Japanese people I work around. Motoko could just body swap to look like Scarlet though and maybe that should be in the first few minutes of the film.

[Negotiator]

I think the only one that always looks japanese is the chief.

[ErikElvis]

As far as I'm concerned 75%+ do not look Asian in anime.

[Duke Togo]

I think the only one that always looks japanese is the chief.

And consistently, across all iterations.

[SchizophrenicMC]

Since we're still going on about it, let's introduce some actual Japanese opinions on the subject:

[treatment]

I think the only one that always looks japanese is the chief.

In the GITS animation?

I reckon Paz(u) and Saito...