Ghost in the Shell Live Action - March 31, 2017

[Negotiator]

In the GITS animation?

I reckon Paz(u) and Saito...

ok those guys too, couldn't remember their names lol

Since we're still going on about it, let's introduce some actual Japanese opinions on the subject:

See they're cool with it!

I always looked at anime characters as just cartoon characters designed to have characteristics not so much a nationality...UNLESS its very specific like an old time samurai story, (not alternate fantasy world) with japanese names and traditions demonstrated in the show/film. In the case of Motoko, imo is just a name in a sci-fi setting that's in Japan and does not demonstrate anything really Japanese about her or her environment. I have to rewatch them all, if I'm wrong, but it's not something that ever stood out to me.

...ps. Im asian

Edited April 26, 2016 by Negotiator

[M'Kyuun]

I'm glad they're down with Scarlett playing Motoko. Interesting that nearly all their first impressions when shown the pic were comments on her beauty, not her race.

[F-mode]

My only problem with this casting choice is that SJ has already played other similar roles. It'd be good to see someome other than her take on the role and make it unique, rather than make the Major just another bit role for her. And yes I realize that's a double-standard when looking at male action stars, but that's where I net out..

[JetJockey]

I've owned this print since the mid 1990s. I don't think when Masamune Shirow illustrated Motoko with basically the flag of Japan behind her, that his thought was that she was really some nationality other than Japanese.

There is also this print which I always assumed said "Made in Japan" on the left. Although you can't see it completely because it's blocked.

Enough is enough. All this stuff going on still giving various reasons is the studio marketing department already starting up selling the movie. Selling their decision. Especially when it turns up on so called "news" sites. Finding a few people on the streets in Japan that don't have a problem with it, I can find a few people that think Green Lantern and Spider-Man 3 are the best superhero movies. But real fans know the truth. Too bad the studio doesn't want to do the right thing and work to sell the movie like it's supposed to be. As I've said in posts before, people are coming up with all kinds of excuses and coming from all kinds of points of view. However, if Ghost in the Shell's lead role isn't made for some one who is Asian, Eastern, or at least Eurasian. Then the only thing left are the historical Asian roles. But don't forget Hollywood made Gods of Egypt, which really wasn't supposed to be set in Ancient Egypt but an alternate universe Egypt or something like that. So that made it ok too. Notice that they didn't call it Gods of Alternate Egypt or Another Egypt when selling it.

*****

You know what would have been interesting to prove what I believe is true, even though it's too late to be done now. Perhaps with the next casting like this. But before the casting announcement, if someone made a futuristic movie image of Salma Hayek, Jessica Alba, Halle Berry, Zoe Saldana, or Michelle Rodriguez for a poll / questionnaire and asked them what they thought. Get their reactions. Then tell them that character's name is Motoko Kusanagi from a Japanese manga and anime, set in a future Japan, that works for the Japanese government, and that happens to be a cyborg made by a Japanese company. That would be interesting to see the how quick the original most likely positive reactions would flip to negative.

* Also I'm learning a few things from this topic. I never heard of Charlie Chan before. Or the term Yellow Peril and Dragon Lady. I guess for me what should be an obvious choice isn't that way for many others.

[technoblue]

Fiction. It's a serious business.

[treatment]

Really wish Charlize Theron was the one cast as Motoko instead...

[Negotiator]

i would have loved Rhona Mitra, but she's getting a little too old now. She was so hot in doomsday.

Disagree with the girl from Pacific Rim. She looks too "soft" imo

Edited April 27, 2016 by Negotiator

[kajnrig]

Also I'm learning a few things from this topic. I never heard of Charlie Chan before. Or the term Yellow Peril and Dragon Lady. I guess for me what should be an obvious choice isn't that way for many others.

You might be interested in the political history of Asians in America, too. California, for instance, was the first state to make citizenship race-based, barring non-Whites (specifically Chinese immigrants that arrived during the gold rush and the building of the transcontinental railroad) from being recognized as Americans. Then there's the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Immigration Act of 1924, and the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 that undid those two mistakes. Also, the simultaneous desexualization and hypersexualization of Asian male and female bodies. (Fu Manchu and Charlie Chan, opposite sides of that same coin.) Also also, Vincent Chin. He's less to do with Hollywood and more with criminal justice, but still relevant to the overarching issue of race in America.

All of which fed into and grew from the yellow peril idea.

Back in the realm of Hollywood, though, you might want to take another look at Gran Torino, in case you haven't already. Lots of lingering Hollywood racism, there.

Plus that scene at the end is stupid, like christ those aren't even funeral clothes they're wearing, that stuff is for weddings and new year's celebrations what the hell.

Edited April 28, 2016 by kajnrig

[Big s]

I hope that this film can find a way around all this mess and be one of a start of good big budget films based on an anime. And hopefully one day we will start to see more mainstream movies starring good actors and actresses of all races. With the majority of California bent Hispanic I'm surprised we don't see more leading roles for Hispanic people, let alone other people.

[JB0]

But real fans know the truth.

Apparently not, since we have real fans on both sides of the debate. Unless the definition of real fan is "someone that agrees with me."

However, if Ghost in the Shell's lead role isn't made for some one who is Asian, Eastern, or at least Eurasian. Then the only thing left are the historical Asian roles.

False dilemma. Just because the major isn't an asian lock-in role doesn't mean only historical roles should be given to asians.

This just happens to be the ONE instance where whitewashing can be justified in-setting.

I'm not even saying it's right, just that it is the one place where it makes any sort of sense.

But don't forget Hollywood made Gods of Egypt, which really wasn't supposed to be set in Ancient Egypt but an alternate universe Egypt or something like that. So that made it ok too. Notice that they didn't call it Gods of Alternate Egypt or Another Egypt when selling it.

And THAT would be an excellent place to make a stand on Hollywood racism, rather than a main character whose every aspect is either undefined or changeable at will.

... Then tell them that character's name is Motoko Kusanagi from a Japanese manga and anime, set in a future Japan, that works for the Japanese government, and that happens to be a cyborg made by a Japanese company. That would be interesting to see the how quick the original most likely positive reactions would flip to negative.

Her name is unknown, she is introduced in the original comics as "Motoko Kusanagi(obviously an alias)".

She works for a future japanese government... that is based on the modern british Parliament.

She begins the story in a cyborg body of unspecified make(but known to be made to higher specifications than those legally allowed CyberJapan's civilian populace).

I do acknowledge the assumption of japanese manufacture for her cybernetics is fair. The era the comic was produced in was one in which Japan was known for having a large manufacturing base that produced high-quality products, making them an excellent choice for a supplier of high-quality cybernetics.

But it is still an assumption, not rooted in the original source material.

I would think a "real fan" would know this already, though.

[areaseven]

[Jefuemon]

All I wanna know is,

are they keeping this scene in the movie?

[JB0]

All I wanna know is,

are they keeping this scene in the movie?

gitscens.jpg

Oh no, not the censored version! Give us the hardcore lesbian makeout we deserve! As Shirow intended!

[seti88]

This thread has made me watch motoko kick asses in civil war!

[JB0]

This thread has made me watch motoko kick asses in civil war!

Oooh. That's what I'mma tell myself when I catch that movie. Best crossover ever.

[kajnrig]

Tangentially related:

"GitS: First Assault" is free on Steam for the weekend, and 50% to purchase until Monday 10am Pacific.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/369200/

Dunno anything about it, but there you are, if you're interested.

[renegadeleader1]

Tangentially related:

"GitS: First Assault" is free on Steam for the weekend, and 50% to purchase until Monday 10am Pacific.

http://store.steampowered.com/app/369200/

Dunno anything about it, but there you are, if you're interested.

Save your money its just another online multiplayer generic call of duty knock off. The only fun IE good GiTS game was the original one for the PSX that let you drive the FUCHIKOMA.

[Big s]

That first game made me dizzy. I got stuck on the side of a colum once and all I could do was move forward and I couldn't tell which way I was pointing because I was just going around and around. The other odd thing was that you could shoot things at a distance and they would act like you weren't there until they died.

[JB0]

The only fun IE good GiTS game was the original one for the PSX that let you drive the FUCHIKOMA.

In honesty? I enjoyed the PS2 Stand Alone Complex game.

I won't say it was the best game ever made. I mean, let's be honest, Cavia was never known for the objective quality of their software. But I always got along with Cavia. They made technically flawed games that were fun as heck.

[JetJockey]

i would have loved Rhona Mitra, but she's getting a little too old now. She was so hot in doomsday.

Disagree with the girl from Pacific Rim. She looks too "soft" imo

I picked Rhona Mitra as a better alternative some pages back. She was a Major in Doomsday too and had Motoko's hairstyle.

You might be interested in the political history of Asians in America, too. California, for instance, was the first state to make citizenship race-based, barring non-Whites (specifically Chinese immigrants that arrived during the gold rush and the building of the transcontinental railroad) from being recognized as Americans. Then there's the Chinese Exclusion Act, the Immigration Act of 1924, and the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965 that undid those two mistakes. Also, the simultaneous desexualization and hypersexualization of Asian male and female bodies. (Fu Manchu and Charlie Chan, opposite sides of that same coin.) Also also, Vincent Chin. He's less to do with Hollywood and more with criminal justice, but still relevant to the overarching issue of race in America.

All of which fed into and grew from the yellow peril idea.

Back in the realm of Hollywood, though, you might want to take another look at Gran Torino, in case you haven't already. Lots of lingering Hollywood racism, there.

Plus that scene at the end is stupid, like christ those aren't even funeral clothes they're wearing, that stuff is for weddings and new year's celebrations what the hell.

I'll look those up. The first I heard of Fu Manchu was in one of the Grindhouse trailers. I saw Gran Torino and didn't think it was that good. I can't even remember it.

Apparently not, since we have real fans on both sides of the debate. Unless the definition of real fan is "someone that agrees with me."

False dilemma. Just because the major isn't an asian lock-in role doesn't mean only historical roles should be given to asians.

This just happens to be the ONE instance where whitewashing can be justified in-setting.

I'm not even saying it's right, just that it is the one place where it makes any sort of sense.

And THAT would be an excellent place to make a stand on Hollywood racism, rather than a main character whose every aspect is either undefined or changeable at will.

Her name is unknown, she is introduced in the original comics as "Motoko Kusanagi(obviously an alias)".

She works for a future japanese government... that is based on the modern british Parliament.

She begins the story in a cyborg body of unspecified make(but known to be made to higher specifications than those legally allowed CyberJapan's civilian populace).

I do acknowledge the assumption of japanese manufacture for her cybernetics is fair. The era the comic was produced in was one in which Japan was known for having a large manufacturing base that produced high-quality products, making them an excellent choice for a supplier of high-quality cybernetics.

But it is still an assumption, not rooted in the original source material.

I would think a "real fan" would know this already, though.

I used "real fan" with Green Lantern and Spider-Man 3, I think most "real fans" of those characters would agree that those movies are bad. Spider-Man 3 was bad, in terms of the changes they made to characters like Venom. The same goes for Green Lantern which is one of those bad comic book movies close to the level of Batman and Robin. Most fans of the characters agree with that. I was establishing a baseline. What real fans will find acceptable.

We'll have to disagree that it makes sense with all that I've posted. And I've watched the original movie, sequel, TV shows and TV movie, and read the manga. I own most of that stuff. I have a rotation of Motoko figures on my desk and she's my desktop wallpaper. Probably will be forever as it's the perfect wallpaper. I have my Mondo Ghost in the Shell foil print up now instead of the Shirow print. The only Ghost in the Shell thing I haven't seen or read yet is the latest Arise movie and the 1.5 and Man Machine Interface mangas. But I believe Motoko is only in one story in 1.5.

I can't believe that anyone that watches and reads all this stuff, would pick a few lines out as reason for Motoko being American, British, or anything else. So in the manga it's stated that Motoko is an alias. Do you really believe that her name is Molly or some other Western name and she's a Westerner working for the Japanese government? Really? Especially when the Ghost in the Shell universe goes into detail about the state of America. And I believe the manufacturer of Motoko's body is mentioned in the manga, movie, or one of the TV shows. I didn't say Japanese company just to say it.

*****

Some of this reminds me of an interview with the guy that played Green Hornet on the old TV show. He mentioned something about how it was tough for Bruce Lee back then. How he had to tell the producers to give him more screen time. That was in the 60s. I remember being shocked and sad to hear that. Bruce Lee is one of the coolest guys ever. The Motoko casting shouldn't even be a debate. How much is needed for a main character to be a minority? Do minority characters need to be so strict in their creation that we say that has to be a minority? There really aren't that many minority main characters that I can name. But now with Motoko, that's minus one big one. Someone mentioned Idris Elba, how some people had a fit when he played a small background role in the Thor movies. But with all that we know about Motoko and the universe she inhabits, we actually have people picking the smallest amount of detail as to why this is ok and even doesn't matter. But I don't think people are throwing around the term Whitewashing for no reason.

[kajnrig]

The same goes for Green Lantern which is one of those bad comic book movies close to the level of Batman and Robin.

Admision: I actually really liked Batman and Robin.

...no I don't, but I do really like their suits. Yes, bat-nipples and all. A lot of thought went into them, a lot of nods to and inspiration from classical Greek/Roman art. The lines and coloring were great, too. But anyway.

[JB0]

I used "real fan" with Green Lantern and Spider-Man 3, I think most "real fans" of those characters would agree that those movies are bad. Spider-Man 3 was bad, in terms of the changes they made to characters like Venom. The same goes for Green Lantern which is one of those bad comic book movies close to the level of Batman and Robin. Most fans of the characters agree with that. I was establishing a baseline. What real fans will find acceptable.

Green Lantern and Spiderman 3 were bad movies. One does not have to be a "real fan" to dislike them, and in fact many people who are not "real fans" hated them(hence why they bombed). Whatever a "real fan" is.

We'll have to disagree that it makes sense with all that I've posted. And I've watched the original movie, sequel, TV shows and TV movie, and read the manga. I own most of that stuff. I have a rotation of Motoko figures on my desk and she's my desktop wallpaper. Probably will be forever as it's the perfect wallpaper. I have my Mondo Ghost in the Shell foil print up now instead of the Shirow print. The only Ghost in the Shell thing I haven't seen or read yet is the latest Arise movie and the 1.5 and Man Machine Interface mangas. But I believe Motoko is only in one story in 1.5.

Manga purist here. The first movie broke my heart, and it left me unable to love another animated adaptation.

<sarcasm>REAL FANS HATE OSHII!!!</sarcasm>

You're right, the major does have only a minimal presence in 1.5. But she's a she again.

No word where she picked up the new body, though it DOES have "made in Japan" painted across the chest in the chapter cover, which seems an unambiguous assignment of manufacture for THIS body. I genuinely recall no such information about her "original" one, but it may be a forgotten detail(or from those filthy cartoon hackjobs!11).

I can't believe that anyone that watches and reads all this stuff, would pick a few lines out as reason for Motoko being American, British, or anything else. So in the manga it's stated that Motoko is an alias. Do you really believe that her name is Molly or some other Western name and she's a Westerner working for the Japanese government?

I believe it is possible, that from a manga purist's perspective she is largely a blank slate.

The Motoko casting shouldn't even be a debate. How much is needed for a main character to be a minority? Do minority characters need to be so strict in their creation that we say that has to be a minority? There really aren't that many minority main characters that I can name. But now with Motoko, that's minus one big one. Someone mentioned Idris Elba, how some people had a fit when he played a small background role in the Thor movies. But with all that we know about Motoko and the universe she inhabits, we actually have people picking the smallest amount of detail as to why this is ok and even doesn't matter. But I don't think people are throwing around the term Whitewashing for no reason.

A. Hollywood does have a serious race issue. Though I'd really argue they need to just do more diverse casting, not specifically focus on casting adaptations "properly". That there seem to be few enough non-white people in Hollywood's entire roster of stars that I can count them on one hand is incredibly troubling. (They also have a serious sexism issue, though it is far less overt.)

B. I was one of the first people in the thread to CALL IT whitewashing. My stance remains as it always was. If you are going to whitewash a character, the major is one of the few you can justify it with from a narrative perspective, due to her vague backstory and transient body. As a societal issue, this is ridiculous. As a Ghost in the Shell issue... not so much.

[Big s]

Admision: I actually really liked Batman and Robin.

...no I don't, but I do really like their suits. Yes, bat-nipples and all. A lot of thought went into them, a lot of nods to and inspiration from classical Greek/Roman art. The lines and coloring were great, too. But anyway.

What about the batcrack?

[kajnrig]

Eh... That I could do with or without, but yes, even the batcrack.

[sh9000]

Rila Fukushima joins the cast.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/article/the-wolverines-rila-fukushima-boards-johanssons-ghost-in-the-shell-remake

[Black Valkyrie]

New pics, I'm starting to accept Scarlett as the Major.

[electric indigo]

^ looks promising. I like the down-to-earth approach.

[azrael]

No eyes for Batou? Or are they going to CGI that?

[anime52k8]

totally random aside, but I really hate Masamune Shirow's art style. His anatomy and use of texture are just really unpleasant to look at.

[Duke Togo]

No eyes for Batou? Or are they going to CGI that?

I was wondering the same thing. Seems like it would be easier to do practically.

[akt_m]

No eyes for Batou? Or are they going to CGI that?

Doesn't seem like they will do. Don't they usually put some green paint or some bright dots to make tracking easier?

[Big s]

The eyes themselvesare enough for tracking for cgi due to the color contrast. The ones for deadpool were tracked by the area around the white eyes on the mask, other films have done cgi eye additions without the help of green or blue pants. Not sure if he will get different eyes in this or maybe a prosthetic for later, later production pictures and footage will give us a better idea of what direction they go. Either way it's looking more believable as an actual film.

[azrael]

I was wondering the same thing. Seems like it would be easier to do practically.

Prosthetics like Batou's eyes might hamper the actor's peripheral vision. They're small enough that they might be hard to stick on to stick onto his face as well.

[Duke Togo]

Prosthetics like Batou's eyes might hamper the actor's peripheral vision. They're small enough that they might be hard to stick on to stick onto his face as well.

Totally depends on the actor's comfort level. I guess we'll see.

[EXO]

If they were going to CG it, they'd mark around his eyes with referencing dots (markers). It's possible that they're doing dress rehearsals or camera blocking without the prosthetics/props.