D.D. Ivanov Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 Well, of course, Shin couldn't do anything, because I believe the only atmospheric fighter to equip rear-facing radar was the old Su-35 Flanker-F/Su-37 Terminator. And since the SV-51 is based on the Su-37, that instantly makes it epic pwn. And Letigre, by the time the incoming fold is detected, if it's an SDF or comparable ship, then it's too late to do anything before the ship fires its main cannon.
Letigre Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) At this point, yes atleast on the matter of detection*. But their talk and study of fold waves and their behavior suggests they might be moving toward some sort of an early warning system. *Even inspite of it's awesome-ness, I think they look a little bit of artistic license in the last MF episode: I can't imagine how the Quarter coming out of fold could immediately be able to target an enemy ship so quickly, let alone fire a weapon that consumes so much power. Not when it's alluded that making the fold takes up a lot of power in itself. ...Well may be they were charged and ready to fire before they jumped, it's hard to say, so I'll drop it.. Edited January 29, 2009 by Letigre
Knight26 Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 To back up March's point about stealth in space: http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3w.html Heat is the key killer of stealth.
D.D. Ivanov Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 (edited) Exactly. The F-22's stealth means nothing if a fighter gets a jump on it(say, the NEW Su-35), uses an IRST sensor to track it through any clouds, then fire an uncaged heatseeking missile. And the Raptor pilot would never know what hit him. The only way top be "stealthy" in space would be to hide in the center of a huge field of debris, a la Macross Plus. And I've always wondered how awesome it would look if the SDF-1 charged its main cannon, folded into space right in front of a line of ships, and fired as soon as it appeared. In addition to the fact that the ships even NEAR the blast would be QWTFBBQed. Also, as an afterthought, maybe firing off a bunch of reaction missiles and Dimension Eaters would hide your EXACT location, and you could travel with the knowledge that whoever is pursuing you will get vaporized/sucked into the unknown. Another possible thing would be to use a low-vis paint scheme, shut down every single emitting system on the craft, hide in a lightless area, and hope that it'll turn back on sooner or later. COMPLETELY unrelated, but I just realized that if you tell Google Maps to give walking instructions across an ocean, it tells you to kayak. Edited January 29, 2009 by D.D. Ivanov
taksraven Posted January 29, 2009 Posted January 29, 2009 The problem with stealth in space is not power, it's heat. Reflected light would be a problem with stealth in space too, I would have thought. Taksraven
Vostok 7 Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Well, of course, Shin couldn't do anything, because I believe the only atmospheric fighter to equip rear-facing radar was the old Su-35 Flanker-F/Su-37 Terminator. And since the SV-51 is based on the Su-37, that instantly makes it epic pwn. And Letigre, by the time the incoming fold is detected, if it's an SDF or comparable ship, then it's too late to do anything before the ship fires its main cannon. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that most Flankers with the tail boom assemblies had rear facing radar, which is most of them. Some of them were just more powerful than others. Vostok 7
Macross GURU Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) The problem with stealth in space is not power, it's heat. Stealth works in an atmosphere because of terrain and ambient temperature. In space there is no terrain and the temperature is incredibly low. Basically any heat source in space sticks out like a sore thumb against a surrounding environment which is both largely empty and very cold. Even the life support system of the cockpit in a variable fighter would be enough heat to see it on infrared from an extremely far distance. Rampantly speculating as a fan, the only way OverTechnology could possibly assist stealth in space would be the use of some kind of super dimension heat sink. Basically absorbing all the heat generated in all the valkyrie's systems and dissipating it into super dimension space. But that's a huge assumption with absolutely no canon support at all and I don't even think it's possible. Personally, I stick with the simplest explanation; the variable fighters are built for space and atmospheric operation, so they use stealth in an atmosphere but not in space. And quite simply, there has never been an animated example of stealth being used in space in Macross. The most prominent examples of stealth in Macross have all been in an atmosphere (Nora's SV-51 vs. Shin's F-14 Tomcat squadron in M0, Guld's YF-21 vs. Isamu's VF-11B Thunderbolt in M+, etc). The best stealth in space would be fold technology; you simply space fold on top of the enemy. Oh, shoot! I neglected to think of that! Yes the fighters would have tremendous issues with being easily seen in the IR not only with thrust but the radiator alone will shine brilliantly. Yes you'd be right, that the stealth feature would be an atmosphere only feature, makes sense. Bloody Macross Magic making me forget physics. LOL So, I figure that the stealth is good for insurgent strikes on planetary installations etc. (edit) Additionally I figure that is why the VF-1 doesn't have stealth coatings or electronic systems is because the UN figured the fighter would be used more in space. Kind of a ret-con but still it does make sense. Edited January 30, 2009 by Macross GURU
Macross GURU Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 (edited) Exactly. The F-22's stealth means nothing if a fighter gets a jump on it(say, the NEW Su-35), uses an IRST sensor to track it through any clouds, then fire an uncaged heatseeking missile. And the Raptor pilot would never know what hit him. The only way top be "stealthy" in space would be to hide in the center of a huge field of debris, a la Macross Plus. And I've always wondered how awesome it would look if the SDF-1 charged its main cannon, folded into space right in front of a line of ships, and fired as soon as it appeared. In addition to the fact that the ships even NEAR the blast would be QWTFBBQed. Also, as an afterthought, maybe firing off a bunch of reaction missiles and Dimension Eaters would hide your EXACT location, and you could travel with the knowledge that whoever is pursuing you will get vaporized/sucked into the unknown. Another possible thing would be to use a low-vis paint scheme, shut down every single emitting system on the craft, hide in a lightless area, and hope that it'll turn back on sooner or later. COMPLETELY unrelated, but I just realized that if you tell Google Maps to give walking instructions across an ocean, it tells you to kayak. Even if you shut down every system there is still radiated heat because of the pilot. Any craft in space must dispose of waste heat through radiation (hence the black tiles on the Shuttle), that includes the waste heat of the pilot, batteries, basic systems of the craft and so on. Since space is a vacuum there is no way to dissipate heat by conduction because there isn't any medium to conduct the heat energy, hence the only way to dispose of heat in empty space is via radiation. The second law of thermodynamics. (edit) I apologize for the double post. Edited January 30, 2009 by Macross GURU
D.D. Ivanov Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that most Flankers with the tail boom assemblies had rear facing radar, which is most of them. Some of them were just more powerful than others. Vostok 7 I don't believe so, as the -35 is the first Flanker model to have provisions for rear-firing semi-active Vympel R-27 missiles. I think on the Flanker-B it is only meant for filling the space between the engines.
sketchley Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 *Even inspite of it's awesome-ness, I think they look a little bit of artistic license in the last MF episode: I can't imagine how the Quarter coming out of fold could immediately be able to target an enemy ship so quickly, let alone fire a weapon that consumes so much power. Not when it's alluded that making the fold takes up a lot of power in itself. ...Well may be they were charged and ready to fire before they jumped, it's hard to say, so I'll drop it.. That'd only be a problem if the cannon part and the fold drive part are on the same ship. They're not. The cannon is in the ARMD-R, with it's own power supply. I'm fairly certain that the main ship's power supplements it. Nevertheless...
David Hingtgen Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Most Flankers keep their drag chute in the tailboom ("stinger"). I'm not even sure any are certain to have a rear radar--even the rearwards-firing missile is still speculation I think, much less a separate radar for it. As for the F-22: Its shiny silvery paint is IR-absorbent. It's not just radar stealthy, it's heat stealthy. (as much as can be done) It is designed for total air dominance in all categories---long range, medium range, and knife-fight.
anime52k8 Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Most Flankers keep their drag chute in the tailboom ("stinger"). I'm not even sure any are certain to have a rear radar--even the rearwards-firing missile is still speculation I think, much less a separate radar for it. I believe that the Su-34 does in fact have one, (hence the enlarged tailboom ). as for any others, I don't see how you could fit one back there.
Nied Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Most Flankers keep their drag chute in the tailboom ("stinger"). I'm not even sure any are certain to have a rear radar--even the rearwards-firing missile is still speculation I think, much less a separate radar for it. As for the F-22: Its shiny silvery paint is IR-absorbent. It's not just radar stealthy, it's heat stealthy. (as much as can be done) It is designed for total air dominance in all categories---long range, medium range, and knife-fight. Not absorbent so much as it re-radiates IR at a wavelength that will dissipate in the atmosphere by the time it gets to anything like a tactically useful range. Since M0 I've always assumed that SK had retconed things so that all variable fighters use some form of active stealth system, only differing in how capable the system is on each VF. It would explain why the VF-0 looks to incorporate passive stealth features (edge alignment, chine along the nose, few 90 degree angles) but later designs like the VF-1, VF-4 and VA-3 don't appear to incorporate much (it may have been found during testing of the VF-0 that the active stealth system alone was enough without any passive features). You could also explain later designs with passive stealth features (practically every VF since the VF-5000 to varying degrees) as better threat sensors being partially able to overcome an active stealth system, necessitating a return of passive stealth features to compensate.
edwin3060 Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Not absorbent so much as it re-radiates IR at a wavelength that will dissipate in the atmosphere by the time it gets to anything like a tactically useful range. Since M0 I've always assumed that SK had retconed things so that all variable fighters use some form of active stealth system, only differing in how capable the system is on each VF. It would explain why the VF-0 looks to incorporate passive stealth features (edge alignment, chine along the nose, few 90 degree angles) but later designs like the VF-1, VF-4 and VA-3 don't appear to incorporate much (it may have been found during testing of the VF-0 that the active stealth system alone was enough without any passive features). You could also explain later designs with passive stealth features (practically every VF since the VF-5000 to varying degrees) as better threat sensors being partially able to overcome an active stealth system, necessitating a return of passive stealth features to compensate. The Red Queen theory of stealth evolution? It would probably be a nice retcon to explain what happened. Aren't the fins on the front of the cockpit for the SV-51 supposed to be some active stealth system or ECM as well? D.D.: IRSTs are not as powerful as you think, especially small sensors like those that they mount on fighter jets I'd figure the F-22 is pretty safe at anything beyond sidewinder range. There are other ways to combat the F-22 though, since there are so few of them around. David Hingtgen: A shiny silver paint wouldn't be IR absorbent-- it would just emit less IR/be more IR reflective. Basic physics says that IR absorbent=IR emitting, and since the aircraft is usually warmer than ambient, having shiny silver paint would reduce your IR signature as compared to black paint. The main IR target would still be the exhaust though, an area in which the F-22 is probably OK due to the nozzle design, though probably not as good as the F-117, B2 or YF-23. Mr.March: Superdimensional heat sink theory wouldn't work anyway, if you had to use your engines. In space, its actually the exhaust that creates most of the radar/IR signature, especially if the exhaust is a plasma (which is probably what you'd get in a TRT).
Mr March Posted January 30, 2009 Author Posted January 30, 2009 Mr.March: Superdimensional heat sink theory wouldn't work anyway, if you had to use your engines. In space, its actually the exhaust that creates most of the radar/IR signature, especially if the exhaust is a plasma (which is probably what you'd get in a TRT). Yep, that's why I didn't think it was even possible.
sucker4meltrans Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 the sv-51 is a big fat heavy cow in comparison to the vf-1
edwin3060 Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 the sv-51 is a big fat heavy cow in comparison to the vf-1 At least it looks cool The SV-51 fighter, gerwalk and battroid mode have to be one of SK's most inspired designs...especially the gerwalk!
David Hingtgen Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Hey, the last thing I read about the F-22's paint was that: A. It's made by Dupont B. It makes it less visible to IR seekers Thanks for the new/update info.
D.D. Ivanov Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 Most Flankers keep their drag chute in the tailboom ("stinger"). I'm not even sure any are certain to have a rear radar--even the rearwards-firing missile is still speculation I think, much less a separate radar for it. Looked it up, turns out there's provisions for a rear-facing radar on the current Su-35 in the tail boom, but Sukhoi has yet to actually install it. It'll probably be placed on a later model.
Zinjo Posted January 30, 2009 Posted January 30, 2009 The problem with stealth in space is not power, it's heat. Stealth works in an atmosphere because of terrain and ambient temperature. In space there is no terrain and the temperature is incredibly low. Basically any heat source in space sticks out like a sore thumb against a surrounding environment which is both largely empty and very cold. Even the life support system of the cockpit in a variable fighter would be enough heat to see it on infrared from an extremely far distance. Rampantly speculating as a fan, the only way OverTechnology could possibly assist stealth in space would be the use of some kind of super dimension heat sink. Basically absorbing all the heat generated in all the valkyrie's systems and dissipating it into super dimension space. But that's a huge assumption with absolutely no canon support at all and I don't even think it's possible. Personally, I stick with the simplest explanation; the variable fighters are built for space and atmospheric operation, so they use stealth in an atmosphere but not in space. And quite simply, there has never been an animated example of stealth being used in space in Macross. The most prominent examples of stealth in Macross have all been in an atmosphere (Nora's SV-51 vs. Shin's F-14 Tomcat squadron in M0, Guld's YF-21 vs. Isamu's VF-11B Thunderbolt in M+, etc). The best stealth in space would be fold technology; you simply space fold on top of the enemy. I'm assuming you must be describing passive stealth. Active stealth would be quite different. Whereas you could have Cyclops jammers, or IR absorbing equipment (all speculation of course)... It is entirely possible that the VF-17 used passive stealth in atmosphere and active stealth in space...
sketchley Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Got around to doing a translation of the GBP-1S text in Perfect Memory - (the majority of the background text here: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/Sketchley/S...VF-1/GBP-1S.htm )
badboy00z Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 Stealth in space can be easily remedied with bogus sci-fi tech just like OT. The GN particles in Gundam 00 is a perfect example.
edwin3060 Posted January 31, 2009 Posted January 31, 2009 GN particles seem to cause nothing more than effects akin to heavy EM Jamming... and wasn't the YF-19/YF-21 the first to overtly (i.e. stated in the anime) use active stealth systems? There must be something to differentiate active stealth and ECM. David: Interesting. I had heard that the F-22s paint was causing greater than expected maintenance problems though, which means that they haven't quite solved the aircraft skin problems that plague the F-117 and B-2 yet. Thanks for your translations Sketchley!
David Hingtgen Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 Looked it up, turns out there's provisions for a rear-facing radar on the current Su-35 in the tail boom, but Sukhoi has yet to actually install it. It'll probably be placed on a later model. There's provisions for wing-mounted ECM pods and the SHRIKE/HARM in the basic F-15 for Wild Weasel roles, but it's been 30 years and we've yet to see that in service. (and up until the E model, the hardpoints for them were still easily visible)
SchizophrenicMC Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 And I've always wondered how awesome it would look if the SDF-1 charged its main cannon, folded into space right in front of a line of ships, and fired as soon as it appeared. In addition to the fact that the ships even NEAR the blast would be QWTFBBQed. Some problems with that: The Macross' fold drives (Which can be supplemented by the ARMDs' drives) use a lot of energy, and during fold operations, only primary systems remain online. It can only fold after several hours (Was it 24, originally?) pass, so it can charge the drive's capacitors. The same is said for the cannon. It must charge up, and even in NMCs, it can only fire once an hour. The ARMD's drives aren't powerful enough to fold the whole Macross, or so I read somewhere. If that were the case, it'd be awesome. This invokes memories of Max Jenius ordering the Macross cannon fired in empty space, and hitting a folding fleet as they defolded. David: ECM, while technically Active Stealth, creates a large buble of empty radar. If their planes fly into it, they disappear. A lot of the time, ESM can detect these bubbles and it's only a matter of time before the ECM plane is taken down. My grandad was a weapons loader on an ESM Plane in Vietnam...
sketchley Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 Some problems with that: The Macross' fold drives (Which can be supplemented by the ARMDs' drives) use a lot of energy, and during fold operations, only primary systems remain online. It can only fold after several hours (Was it 24, originally?) pass, so it can charge the drive's capacitors. The same is said for the cannon. It must charge up, and even in NMCs, it can only fire once an hour. The ARMD's drives aren't powerful enough to fold the whole Macross, or so I read somewhere. What's the source of your information??? For starters, the ARMD class Space Carriers (or at least the versions seen attached to the SDF-1 in SDFM and DYRL) do not have fold drives (though the ones in DYRL are capable of having them mounted)...
SchizophrenicMC Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 What's the source of your information??? For starters, the ARMD class Space Carriers (or at least the versions seen attached to the SDF-1 in SDFM and DYRL) do not have fold drives (though the ones in DYRL are capable of having them mounted)... I can't remember whether it was the compendium or the M3 where I read that they have Fold Drives, but no navigation equipment, thus rendering them worthless.
sketchley Posted February 1, 2009 Posted February 1, 2009 You do know that in Japanese it's called "fold navigation" equipment, and it has neither, right?
Mr March Posted February 1, 2009 Author Posted February 1, 2009 The M3 does mimic the Macross Compendium in regards to the ARMD fold drives (that it could accommodate them, but they were never implemented), but I've never heard of large power requirements draining a ship during folds or any kind of recharge time. The events of the anime indicate most ships can fold multiple times, fire their main guns multiple times or do both. The only system that appeared to have a significant recharge time in Macross was the Super Beam Gun on the New Macross Class vessels. There has been discussion suggesting that particular gun was meant to be more powerful than the original Super Dimension Energy Cannon on the Macross, but we don't know for sure.
Macross GURU Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Why do I get this funny feeling that big west is trying to unofficially tie the Macross chronology with Macross II. Is this a retcon, or just my imagination? It appears that the U.N. Spacy has also been reorganized into the NUNS in Macross II as well as the UNS being reorganized into NUNS in Macross F, huh, how odd...
David Hingtgen Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 City 7 sure had "charge time/energy reserves" issues for folding--it was a plot point during the "City 7 is hijacked" arc.
Mr March Posted February 3, 2009 Author Posted February 3, 2009 Exactly. A plot necessity...in Macross 7. No other vessels in Macross appeared to have this problem. Not the Zentradi, Meltrandi, Varauta or other UNS/SMS/NUNS ships. So... Macross GURU Hmmm, we discussed the New UN Spacy issue before and it appeared to be from SDF Macross. But I remember someone having an issue with that afterward for some reason. Maybe they'll post in this thread about it.
Letigre Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 So did Frontier's City and Island ships. I just don't know if the Battle section would have corresponding issues, being a ship of a much smaller scale. (Not to mention having their own fold drives, and I also assume their power generation is autonomous from the City ship, maybe even when docked.)
DarkReaper Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 They should do an OVA about the fall of the old UN Spacy administration. Sort of a political thriller with large-scale fleet engagements. Would do great in the current funny series, serious OVA ... series.
anime52k8 Posted February 3, 2009 Posted February 3, 2009 Why do I get this funny feeling that big west is trying to unofficially tie the Macross chronology with Macross II. Is this a retcon, or just my imagination? It appears that the U.N. Spacy has also been reorganized into the NUNS in Macross II as well as the UNS being reorganized into NUNS in Macross F, huh, how odd... it's just your imagination. there was no retcon, Macross II isn't going to be made cannon, there is no conspiracy
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