Macross Mecha Manual

[VF5SS]

Has the VF-0D ever been seen in Battroid mode? I know we've seen a Hasegawa model converted to GERWALK, but I don't think I've ever seen a -0D Battroid.

Vostok 7

During Shin's training in episode 2, he transforms his VF-0D to battroid mode. Also during his underwater fight with the Octos.

[Mr March]

There's definitely line art of the VF-0D Battroid. The MAHQ has had it for years (they got a scan of it from a magazine during release of Macross Zero). The problem, as with all the line art on my website, is obtaining a high-resolution scan of the line art so I can color it and make it look all pretty for the M3

That's what I'd assume the verniers are for. But you're quite right, the VF-0 and SV-51 have very few. And they both lack the big reverse verniers like the VF-1 has.

[Vostok 7]

During Shin's training in episode 2, he transforms his VF-0D to battroid mode. Also during his underwater fight with the Octos.

Cool, I REALLY need to see all of Mac0

Vostok 7

[D.D. Ivanov]

Didn't the Destroid Monster appear in Zero? Because that's what

fired reaction warheads at AFOS in episode 5

, but the SDF Macross article on it only lists as appearing in SDFM, DYRL, and Plus.

Edited because I just realized Vostok said he hasn't seen the whole thing.

Edited January 27, 2009 by D.D. Ivanov

[edwin3060]

I'd guess the vernier thrusters on the VF-0 will be similar to the wingtip thrusters on the F-35B and used for fine control during hovering/maneuvering at low speeds, like you said.

D.D. Ivanov-- it would be a predecessor of the Destroid Monster, because the arm mounted missiles are not there, it has hand/clamps instead.

[D.D. Ivanov]

So I imagine, then, that the one in Zero would be the Monster Mk I, since SDFM has the second variant.

But the thing is, the Monster Mk II's introduction was in September 2008, which is the same time that the incident at the Mayan Islands occured.

Edited January 27, 2009 by D.D. Ivanov

[Letigre]

Well it was some similar arm shape, that split into these long, claw-like fingers that grappled hand-holds on the carrier deck. Aside from that, it was all Monster, enough that it could have been some un-named variant.

[briscojr84]

Didn't the Destroid Monster appear in Zero? Because that's what

fired reaction warheads at AFOS in episode 5

, but the SDF Macross article on it only lists as appearing in SDFM, DYRL, and Plus.

Edited because I just realized Vostok said he hasn't seen the whole thing.

The one seen in M0 is the Mk-I, not Mk-II, and what with March Seperating them by models it won't list it as being M0.

Briscojr84

[lebhead]

leb! Holy frack man, where ya been? How ya been? Great to see you! LOL!

Heya! Haven't been around for a while (obviously!) but I'm trying to catch up on Frontier. Your site was a huge help with the mecha. Now I just need to finish watching. Only on episode 2.

[Macross GURU]

Now for something completely different... Does the VF-171 have passive stealth? Also from what I can analyze form its art it looks as if the VF-171 doesn't have the micro-missile launchers its predecessor had.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Macross GURU

[anime52k8]

Now for something completely different... Does the VF-171 have passive stealth? Also from what I can analyze form its art it looks as if the VF-171 doesn't have the micro-missile launchers its predecessor had.

I don't believe there has been any official word on wiether the VF-171 has passive stealth (looking forward to the articles on it and the VF-27 to show up in the chronicles) but based on the look of the ship itself, I'd say it probably has passive stealth characteristics, thought the frequent use of external weapons tends to negate that.

as for the micro missile launchers, if you look at the fighter mode views side by side:

in the area on the -171 where the -17's missile ports were there is a single opening of undefined function. so if that is a missile port, then the VF-171 has fiewer missiles, or it can only launch in volleys of 2 instead of volleys of 4.

:edit:

looking at these two got me thinking. I can see now how the vernier parts on the VF-17 look a lot like the circles on the SV-51, but looking at those same verniers on the -171, they're now diamond shaped. Considering that little aesthetic choices like that are generally more similar between Mac0 and MacF than Mac0 and Mac7, I'd think that if SK wanted them to be verniers he would have drawn them as diamonds rather than circles.

Edited January 28, 2009 by anime52k8

[Macross GURU]

Then it must not have passive stealth, for the angular radar cross section of the -171 appears to not only confirm this but the use of external stores would cause the -171 to light up like a Christmas Tree on radar. As for the internal missiles, I don't know how I missed it during my first analysis. Oh well, I suppose I must rest as I have been up to my neck in Macross mecha and ship data for the last few days. I just re-modified my Megaroad 01 stats to reflect the data from Macross Chronicles. It is handy to have Japan Town just around the corner here in SF.

I don't believe there has been any official word on wiether the VF-171 has passive stealth (looking forward to the articles on it and the VF-27 to show up in the chronicles) but based on the look of the ship itself, I'd say it probably has passive stealth characteristics, thought the frequent use of external weapons tends to negate that.

as for the micro missile launchers, if you look at the fighter mode views side by side:

in the area on the -171 where the -17's missile ports were there is a single opening of undefined function. so if that is a missile port, then the VF-171 has fiewer missiles, or it can only launch in volleys of 2 instead of volleys of 4.

Edited January 28, 2009 by Macross GURU

[sketchley]

in the area on the -171 where the -17's missile ports were there is a single opening of undefined function. so if that is a missile port, then the VF-171 has fiewer missiles, or it can only launch in volleys of 2 instead of volleys of 4.

Why would the removal of a launch mechanism reduce the total payload? If anything, there'd be a payload increase (and you're right about the reduced number of missile per volley).

Don't forget that the ventral weapon pallets have been replaced with micro-missile launchers as well. As I'm too lazy to go further into it, scroll down a bit when you arrive at this link: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/Sketchley/S...#WEAPON_SYSTEMS

Edited January 28, 2009 by sketchley

[edwin3060]

Then it must not have passive stealth, for the angular radar cross section of the -171 appears to not only confirm this but the use of external stores would cause the -171 to light up like a Christmas Tree on radar. As for the internal missiles, I don't know how I missed it during my first analysis. Oh well, I suppose I must rest as I have been up to my neck in Macross mecha and ship data for the last few days. I just re-modified my Megaroad 01 stats to reflect the data from Macross Chronicles. It is handy to have Japan Town just around the corner here in SF.

The shape of the VF-171 can neither prove or disprove that there is passive stealth, since stealth aircraft can take on many different shapes and forms-- if anything, I'd say that the -171 in a clean configuration might have better passive stealth than the -17, just as how the F-22, with less angular and more rounded shapes, has better stealth characteristics that the F-117. Loaded with missiles or Super pack, the -171 could possibly rely on active stealth systems to maintain stealth, we need more data in this area.

[Mr March]

Yes, as briscojr84 has said, the dark, blue metal Monster with the "claws" in Macross Zero is the Destroid Monster Mk I. As with most of the Macross Zero mecha, the only line art scans available right now are tiny little things floating around the net that were long ago scanned from Japanese magazines. Since no proper book of Macross Zero line art has yet been released, the Mk I is still absent from my website. Come on Chronicle, get your act in gear!

lebhead

That's cool that you're catching up. I'm glad you had fun on my website, but I hope my site doesn't spoil too much for ya.

Though you're lucky in some ways, because some of the official trivia SHOULD have been released before the show aired or during the first few episodes.

I hope you enjoy Macross Frontier. But either way, make sure to post your praise or criticism once you watch it.

...regarding passive stealth

If the VF-17D/S Nightmare can be declared a passive stealth craft in the Macross universe, I see no reason why the VF-171 Nightmare Plus cannot. At the same time, we have no information on the VF-171 Nightmare Plus, so it could have passive stealth or it could not. Based on the information released about the VF-171 Nightmare Plus, I'd say it's possible the fighter doesn't have passive stealth. It appears to be a stripped down VF-17 Nightmare, superior to the VF-11 Thunderbolt, but falling short of the YF-19/VF-19 Excalibur and YF-21/VF-22 Sturmvogel II. Over time (such as the intervening years between MD7 in 2047 and Macross Frontier in 2059) I'm sure the VF-171 Nightmare Plus was upgraded. While the VF-171 may have been a "lesser VF-17 Nightmare" when it first came along, it would make sense that the VF-171 Nightmare Plus would eventually benefit from upgrades that would at least improve it's performance beyond the old VF-17 Nightmare, if not it's armament.

But that's all just a guess

[edwin3060]

On the other hand, everybody and their mother is slapping on RAM on their aircraft to reduce the signature and calling it stealth. So, going by a fairly broad definition of stealth, yes it (and every other VF out there) probably has some elements of passive stealth. Heck, even the feet/exhaust ports of just about every VF out there exhibits a feature of lower observability, which is to use a non-circular exhaust which increases the perimeter of the exhaust, increasing the mixing with air and reducing the infrared signature.

Realistically speaking, any spacecraft with such powerful engines can never be stealthed as long as the engines are blasting away --VF-17 included.

[sketchley]

Yes, as briscojr84 has said, the dark, blue metal Monster with the "claws" in Macross Zero is the Destroid Monster Mk I. As with most of the Macross Zero mecha, the only line art scans available right now are tiny little things floating around the net that were long ago scanned from Japanese magazines. Since no proper book of Macross Zero line art has yet been released, the Mk I is still absent from my website. Come on Chronicle, get your act in gear!

There's some lineart in the M0 DVD booklets.

Chronicle already has an image printed of the Mk I: refer to the Mk II's page's development chart (lower right corner).

[Mr March]

edwin3060

I don't think stealth in Macross is in anyway meant for use in space. Nearly all the fighters and ships in Macross are designed for use in space AND an atmosphere. So much like wings, stealth is a necessity for atmospheric operations but obviously has no use in space.

I think the closest Macross has come to breaking the rule of stealth in space was in Macross Plus when the YF-19 tried to get past the planetary defenses with it's active stealth system. However, that event took place deep inside the Sol system, in orbit of Earth and they may have been talking about once they get in the atmosphere.

sketchley

I think that picture was way too small, but I'll take another look later today.

[azrael]

In honesty though, we just don't have enough info on the VF-171, period. Chances are, it's on Kawamori's To-do list.

[D.D. Ivanov]

Yes, as briscojr84 has said, the dark, blue metal Monster with the "claws" in Macross Zero is the Destroid Monster Mk I. As with most of the Macross Zero mecha, the only line art scans available right now are tiny little things floating around the net that were long ago scanned from Japanese magazines. Since no proper book of Macross Zero line art has yet been released, the Mk I is still absent from my website. Come on Chronicle, get your act in gear!

That's too bad, I'd like to see more information and bigger shots of the Mark I. Those claws it had were damned scary.

Also, as noticed, stealth really didn't do anything for the YF-19, and that piece of debris barely got them through, until Guld found them.

Edited January 28, 2009 by D.D. Ivanov

[badboy00z]

Does the Vajra even use traditional RADAR? The VF-171 having passive stealth or not doesn't really matter IMO.

[D.D. Ivanov]

The Vajra are living swarm weapons, so I don't think so. I imagine they use the fold waves to detect others the same way they use it to communicate with the hive.

Edited January 28, 2009 by D.D. Ivanov

[edwin3060]

Does the Vajra even use traditional RADAR? The VF-171 having passive stealth or not doesn't really matter IMO.

The VF-171 was the main fighter for the NUNS for the decade or more before MacF, so yes, it matters, since most of their opponents would either be rogue Zentrans or humans.

Mr March: Except that the VF-17 was designed as a mainly space fighter and had passive stealth-- I think we just have to accept that some laws of physics have to be broken in the anime, no matter how much of a military otaku SK is. Besides, passive stealth still does have some uses in space--as long as you don't fire your engines and have sufficient thermal shielding to prevent IR detection. It could allow for a closer approach to the enemy before engagement, for example. Or be used for ambushes.

D.D.: I thought those claws were comical, actually-- for something meant to stabilise the Monster against the impulse of the cannons firing, they chose something with so many joints and was so complex? Again, it doesn't make engineering sense, but that animation sequence sure was impressive.

[D.D. Ivanov]

I thought those claws were comical, actually

As was Mao's reaction to a giant clawed thingy coming up out of the steel floating thingy.

[Mr March]

I don't think anyone in Macross uses traditional radar. There is mention of gravity wave radar and particle system radar in SDF Macross (Quel-Quallie Theatre Scout), cross-dimensional radar in Macross 7 (episode 22), and fold wave radar in Macross Frontier (RVF-25 Messiah radome). Given the context of Frontier, the Vajra likely just naturally use fold waves while the SMS/NUNS use fold wave radar artificially.

edwin3060

I don't follow the logic. That's like saying the VF-17 is a space fighter so it's wings aren't really meant for flying in an atmosphere. They certainly aren't for decoration

It doesn't matter if the variable fighter is 50%, 75% or 90% space fighter, it's still made for all-environment operation. If that means it's stealth system is only worth it when the Nightmare finds itself rarely operating in the atmosphere, that's what multi-role is all about. Having said that, I'll grant you that in light of the inherent silliness that is Macross as a whole, it might be splitting hairs to say stealth in Macross isn't meant for space. However, if a rule hasn't been broken, there is always the possibility it was "by design". Maybe I'm just too much of a fan, but I'd rather give Macross the benefit of the doubt.

Besides, it's been my observation that we assume too much when it comes to anime. I've had fans tell me Macross isn't real because space fighters don't have wings. I kid you not. So in contrast to those that never scratch the surface of the fiction, I prefer to err on the side of detail when examining Macross. I do run a mecha website after all

Here's the best scan I can make of that tiny picture from Issue #8 of the Macross Chronicle. Sucks I know, but blame Big West

[D.D. Ivanov]

Haha, I'm sure those people know of REAL space fighters in service. [/sarcasm]

[anime52k8]

Why would the removal of a launch mechanism reduce the total payload? If anything, there'd be a payload increase (and you're right about the reduced number of missile per volley).

Don't forget that the ventral weapon pallets have been replaced with micro-missile launchers as well. As I'm too lazy to go further into it, scroll down a bit when you arrive at this link: http://www.macrossroleplay.org/Sketchley/S...#WEAPON_SYSTEMS

my thinking is this, the removal of 1 port correlates with the removal of the magazine in which the missiles are stored for that port, so if you have (random number) ten missiles per launcher; the VF-17 with 4 ports will have 40 missiles, but the 171 (with 2 ports) will have 20. the more likely situation is that they have the same space for storage, but instead of feeding 4 ports it feeds 2. I'm just putting out some theory's and I totally forgot about the launch ports on the legs. (which end up in a kind of awkward place in battroid/gerwalk mode, being on the inner legs.)

[edwin3060]

edwin3060

I don't follow the logic. That's like saying the VF-17 is a space fighter so it's wings aren't really meant for flying in an atmosphere. They certainly aren't for decoration

It doesn't matter if the variable fighter is 50%, 75% or 90% space fighter, it's still made for all-environment operation. If that means it's stealth system is only worth it when the Nightmare finds itself rarely operating in the atmosphere, that's what multi-role is all about. Having said that, I'll grant you that in light of the inherent silliness that is Macross as a whole, it might be splitting hairs to say stealth in Macross isn't meant for space. However, if a rule hasn't been broken, there is always the possibility it was "by design". Maybe I'm just too much of a fan, but I'd rather give Macross the benefit of the doubt.

Besides, it's been my observation that we assume too much when it comes to anime. I've had fans tell me Macross isn't real because space fighters don't have wings. I kid you not. So in contrast to those that never scratch the surface of the fiction, I prefer to err on the side of detail when examining Macross. I do run a mecha website after all

Here's the best scan I can make of that tiny picture from Issue #8 of the Macross Chronicle. Sucks I know, but blame Big West

Fair enough. Looks like that photo needs a lot of love to be made clearer!

[badboy00z]

my thinking is this, the removal of 1 port correlates with the removal of the magazine in which the missiles are stored for that port, so if you have (random number) ten missiles per launcher; the VF-17 with 4 ports will have 40 missiles, but the 171 (with 2 ports) will have 20. the more likely situation is that they have the same space for storage, but instead of feeding 4 ports it feeds 2. I'm just putting out some theory's and I totally forgot about the launch ports on the legs. (which end up in a kind of awkward place in battroid/gerwalk mode, being on the inner legs.)

The 2 ports can still have 40 if the magazines were bigger.

[sketchley]

The 2 ports can still have 40 if the magazines were bigger.

"44". "4" Extra from the space savings.

[Mr March]

D.D. Ivanov

That's always my first question when someone says they know what a real space fighter would be like

edwin3060

Sadly, that's the best I can do with that line art. The original image is smaller than the tip of one's thumb. Even at full 1,200 DPI resolution, that is the absolute best that picture will ever look. I'm actually surprised it turned out as well as it did. So I'm holding out for something better

[edwin3060]

D.D. Ivanov

That's always my first question when someone says they know what a real space fighter would be like

edwin3060

Sadly, that's the best I can do with that line art. The original image is smaller than the tip of one's thumb. Even at full 1,200 DPI resolution, that is the absolute best that picture will ever look. I'm actually surprised it turned out as well as it did. So I'm holding out for something better

Ahh well. Hopefully SK will get back to Mac0 or something then-- maybe Bandai will push him to it as part of their 'evil' plan to promote the VF100s line? Hehe.

D.D.: You can just look at the recent US feat of using two satellites to observe a third satellite-- space fighters will be unmanned. The Simpsons predict the future again!

[Macross GURU]

I wouldn't put it past the engineers of Macross to find a new radar absorbent coating in attempts to fuddle overtechnology radar systems. I doubt it would matter if it were in an atmosphere or in space, radar behaves somewhat the same in both environments except that the properties of the atmosphere create resistance thus increasing attenuation of signal. Microwaves function very well in space. They measure between 1mm to 1m, or .3Ghz to 300Ghz. Gravitational wave radar would have to measure fluctuation in the curvature of spacetime which propagates as a wave as well as the gravitational radiation which is the energy transported by these waves. (This was discovered in 1993). And I guess fold radar functions along similar a method as gravitational radar except by detecting fold waves and their distortion of space time. So, perhaps stealth systems may be somewhat ineffective.

I don't think anyone in Macross uses traditional radar. There is mention of gravity wave radar and particle system radar in SDF Macross (Quel-Quallie Theatre Scout), cross-dimensional radar in Macross 7 (episode 22), and fold wave radar in Macross Frontier (RVF-25 Messiah radome). Given the context of Frontier, the Vajra likely just naturally use fold waves while the SMS/NUNS use fold wave radar artificially.

edwin3060

I don't follow the logic. That's like saying the VF-17 is a space fighter so it's wings aren't really meant for flying in an atmosphere. They certainly aren't for decoration

It doesn't matter if the variable fighter is 50%, 75% or 90% space fighter, it's still made for all-environment operation. If that means it's stealth system is only worth it when the Nightmare finds itself rarely operating in the atmosphere, that's what multi-role is all about. Having said that, I'll grant you that in light of the inherent silliness that is Macross as a whole, it might be splitting hairs to say stealth in Macross isn't meant for space. However, if a rule hasn't been broken, there is always the possibility it was "by design". Maybe I'm just too much of a fan, but I'd rather give Macross the benefit of the doubt.

Besides, it's been my observation that we assume too much when it comes to anime. I've had fans tell me Macross isn't real because space fighters don't have wings. I kid you not. So in contrast to those that never scratch the surface of the fiction, I prefer to err on the side of detail when examining Macross. I do run a mecha website after all

Here's the best scan I can make of that tiny picture from Issue #8 of the Macross Chronicle. Sucks I know, but blame Big West

[Mr March]

The problem with stealth in space is not power, it's heat. Stealth works in an atmosphere because of terrain and ambient temperature. In space there is no terrain and the temperature is incredibly low. Basically any heat source in space sticks out like a sore thumb against a surrounding environment which is both largely empty and very cold. Even the life support system of the cockpit in a variable fighter would be enough heat to see it on infrared from an extremely far distance.

Rampantly speculating as a fan, the only way OverTechnology could possibly assist stealth in space would be the use of some kind of super dimension heat sink. Basically absorbing all the heat generated in all the valkyrie's systems and dissipating it into super dimension space. But that's a huge assumption with absolutely no canon support at all and I don't even think it's possible.

Personally, I stick with the simplest explanation; the variable fighters are built for space and atmospheric operation, so they use stealth in an atmosphere but not in space. And quite simply, there has never been an animated example of stealth being used in space in Macross. The most prominent examples of stealth in Macross have all been in an atmosphere (Nora's SV-51 vs. Shin's F-14 Tomcat squadron in M0, Guld's YF-21 vs. Isamu's VF-11B Thunderbolt in M+, etc). The best stealth in space would be fold technology; you simply space fold on top of the enemy.

[Letigre]

Then again they seem to be rapidly figuring out ways to (atleast) detect incoming folds.