Macross Mecha Manual

[ChronoReverse]

Huh, YF-19 high speed configuration (was that always there?)? Too bad we don't get to see this mode in animation =)

Incidentally, I was rewatching Plus and I noticed that Isamu's YF-19 has a magic gunpod that can reappear for short periods of time after being lost . Poor Isamu though, going up against the X-9 without (much) weapons isn't the best of situations.

Edited December 22, 2008 by ChronoReverse

[anime52k8]

I completely agree about sticking with published materials, but does the MMM diffentiate between published canon materials (ie: Perfect Memory) verses published non-canon materials (ie: Model Graphix #290)? I'm pretty certain it's the former, but just want to double-check.

As far as official goes, I'd say that they are. Unless I'm mistaken, that line art bears the signature of Shoji Kawamori. Plus, the Big West sticker indicates that the kit has been officially sanctioned by Big West. As far as canon goes, I don't know. It's been a long time since that line art was published and the name "Siren" has been dropped in favor of "Lightning III," who know what else (possibly nothing) Kawamori has changed since then.

I kind of want to point out that none of the official drawings of the VF-4's fighter mode match the way the batroid mode is drawn. spacificaly the portion of the center fuselage just behind the canards. the panel lines don't match up with the corresponding parts on the batroid at all.

[David Hingtgen]

YF-19 high speed mode has always been there, and is used near the end of Plus right when the YF-21 does it (never up close though, always in the background). If we ever get it in HD I could make better screen caps. Just after this scene, you can actually see the YF-19 sweep its wings forward again while it's rolling, and it's bigger/closer at that moment.

[sketchley]

Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works pg 66 does not state that the VF-X-3 has two modes or has two modes only. It doesn't say anything about the VF-X-3. The claim that "both the VF-X-3 and VF-X-4 are limited to fighter and gerwalk modes, only" comes directly from the Japanese Wikipedia page and not an official source.

You do realize that it was fixed in the last update, preceeding your post herein, right?

Yes, I have checked the sources cited. Yes, there is much information that is misidentified as canon in that macrossroleplay page, but is not in the Compendium or any official source.

Ah, so that's it. You're insulting myself, Mr March, and all the MW members by unilaterally and arbitrarily deciding what is, or is not canon and assuming that we are incapable of determing that for ourselves.

Do take note, that I've never stated that the stats I've presented should be copied wholesale to his, or anyone else's webpage, just that there may be information in it that Mr March may wish to add to his website.

In the future, please establish what you consider an official source first, before dismissing content as being non-canon.

[sketchley]

I completely agree about sticking with published materials, but does the MMM diffentiate between published canon materials (ie: Perfect Memory) verses published non-canon materials (ie: Model Graphix #290)? I'm pretty certain it's the former, but just want to double-check.

This is an interesting point. The main reason I cite Model Graphix is because it is the only confirmable, printed source I can find that mentions the ram jet engines of the VF-4. Mr March has lineart on his website pointing them out (see discussion on pg 38), but as I cannot verify the source of the lineart, I couldn't cite it.

And one does have to be a bit careful about excluding things like modeling magazines as sources. Take Great Mechanics.DX, without it we wouldn't have statistical information on the VF-25, VF-27, Macross Quarter, Battle Galaxy, and Battle Frontier. (Of course, a good chunk of the VF-25 stats were later confirmed in the model kit.)

Edited December 23, 2008 by sketchley

[oreillyrel]

You do realize that it was fixed in the last update, preceeding your post herein, right?

If that error was being fixed after the post before mine, then why did that post mention "Re: the VF-X-3 and two modes: Shoji Kawamori Macross Design Works pg 66"? Especially since that page doesn't mention the VF-X-3 at all?

Ah, so that's it. You're insulting myself, Mr March, and all the MW members by unilaterally and arbitrarily deciding what is, or is not canon and assuming that we are incapable of determing that for ourselves.

Do take note, that I've never stated that the stats I've presented should be copied wholesale to his, or anyone else's webpage, just that there may be information in it that Mr March may wish to add to his website.

In the future, please establish what you consider an official source first, before dismissing content as being non-canon.

I did, in my first two posts.

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...mp;#entry694213

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=694257

I'm not the one that decided that Model Graphix #290 is not canon for Macross. Model Graphix #290 itself printed a disclaimer that it is not official. An earlier post in this thread incorrectly declared information from Wikipedia and the magazine as "canon."

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&p=694008

I only pointed out where the information comes from is not official. The burden of proof is upon those who declare a Model Graphix issue--with an "unofficial" disclaimer--and a Wikipedia article are sources for "canon" Macross information, not upon those that point out otherwise.

Edited December 23, 2008 by oreillyrel

[oreillyrel]

This is an interesting point. The main reason I cite Model Graphix is because it is the only confirmable, printed source I can find that mentions the ram jet engines of the VF-4. Mr March has lineart on his website pointing them out (see discussion on pg 38), but as I cannot verify the source of the lineart, I couldn't cite it.

That's the problem. This Model Graphix magazine issue specifically warns readers, in writing in the beginning, not to cite it as a Macross source.

And one does have to be a bit careful about excluding things like modeling magazines as sources. Take Great Mechanics.DX, without it we wouldn't have statistical information on the VF-25, VF-27, Macross Quarter, Battle Galaxy, and Battle Frontier. (Of course, a good chunk of the VF-25 stats were later confirmed in the model kit.)

No one is saying that all modeling magazines are unofficial sources--just the Model Graphix issues that specifically lists a disclaimer that it is unofficial for Macross. And a Wikipedia article.

[Mr March]

I think we're safe quoting the engines (see post by TheLoneWolf below) and I appreciate the help from where ever it comes. At least on the ram jet engines and rocket engines, sketchley appears to be correct. The other information, I'm kinda forced to accept cautiously as oreillyrel has said because I can't confirm any of it. A lot of us fans have been bothered by a lack of official information on the VF-4 engines for a long time. It's been clear for years that there are two engines on top of the VF-4 that were never accounted for in official information. But with the digital photos of that line art, it's clear the VF-4 actually has six engines (the two fuselage engines are a complete surprise to me). I'm praying the Macross Chronicle offers some description of all the engines (or at the very LEAST, acknowledges they exist).

I completely agree about sticking with published materials, but does the MMM diffentiate between published canon materials (ie: Perfect Memory) verses published non-canon materials (ie: Model Graphix #290)? I'm pretty certain it's the former, but just want to double-check.

As far as official goes, I'd say that they are. Unless I'm mistaken, that line art bears the signature of Shoji Kawamori. Plus, the Big West sticker indicates that the kit has been officially sanctioned by Big West. As far as canon goes, I don't know. It's been a long time since that line art was published and the name "Siren" has been dropped in favor of "Lightning III," who know what else (possibly nothing) Kawamori has changed since then.

With that, I'm at the mercy of the Compendium. I link to all their articles every time I utilize some of their information, so we'd have to know what Egan uses. From what I can tell, most of the stuff seems to be from official Macross publications. I can confirm that a lot of the information is taken from Macross Perfect Memory, Gold Book, MK Design works, SK Designs Works, TIAS M+ and the Macross Chronicle, but that's all I can say. The rest is anyone's guess.

I think you're right about the photos. They do have Kawamori's signature and it looks like his writing, so I think we're safe with the engines.

I kind of want to point out that none of the official drawings of the VF-4's fighter mode match the way the batroid mode is drawn. spacificaly the portion of the center fuselage just behind the canards. the panel lines don't match up with the corresponding parts on the batroid at all.

I'm not really sure I understand. Do you have any way of pointing out what it is your mean by posting a picture?

Edited December 23, 2008 by Mr March

[anime52k8]

I'm not really sure I understand. Do you have any way of pointing out what it is your mean by posting a picture?

ok, I'm referring to the section that's red in your color coded guide

well if you look at the fighter mode image there's one panel line that's right behind the canards, and then there's the beige colored square and just behind that are the two little dashes, and that's it.

on the batroid there's the beige square and the two little dashes. but the end of that part is two short for it to match up with the line thats behind the canards in fighter mode. and then there's the head which sort of just comes out of nowhere.

I think you'd need to add seems in the fallowing places (red lines) to make it work, (and the third blue line is the missing panel line from the head)

[Mr March]

Oh, that. That's nothing. There's lines (seams) missing all over the place on most of the valkyrie drawings. And even the best of the valkyries make use of some limited amount of "anime magic" to transform, though one could argue it's simply Kawamori exaggerating/misrepresenting his own designs to make an individual drawing appear visually dramatic.

Missing seams are really noticeable on the Macross 7 mecha, which were simplified to make the animation process faster and more efficient.

[Vostok 7]

Oh, that. That's nothing. There's lines (seams) missing all over the place on most of the valkyrie drawings. And even the best of the valkyries make use of some limited amount of "anime magic" to transform, though one could argue it's simply Kawamori exaggerating/misrepresenting his own designs to make an individual drawing appear visually dramatic.

Missing seams are really noticeable on the Macross 7 mecha, which were simplified to make the animation process faster and more efficient.

From what I've seen, the VF-4 is one of SK's designs that practically REQUIRES a heavy amount of anime magic to work. Most of his designs only require anime magic for proportions and things, but with the VF-4 it seems like whole assemblies come out of anime magic, like the head for instance (if you look at the pictures he posted, there's no way the head wholly constitutes that tiny little triangle between the beige inspection panel (I assume that's an ejection port for the pilot in Battroid mode) and the wings. Unless the wings slide backwards and outwards a little bit.

Vostok 7

[TheLoneWolf]

Missing seams are really noticeable on the Macross 7 mecha, which were simplified to make the animation process faster and more efficient.

Very interesting, it makes perfect sense. Where did you get that information from?

[NightmareEX]

Interesting fact inside MMM website, good job. BTW...VF-0D Phoenix is missing, are you still working on it ?

[Mr March]

Vostok 7

Actually, the VF-4 Lightning III is fairly simple as a transforming design. In fact, the VF-4 transformation is barely anymore complex than the VF-1 Valkyrie. Don't let the final form fool you. Just because the VF-4 battroid isn't streamlined or compact that doesn't mean the transformation process is complex or cumbersome. While making the color code guides for the valkyries, I also went through and counted what I have come to call the number of articulated mechanisms required to transform and came up with the following:

VF-1 Valkyrie (the number of articulated mechanisms required to transform = 24)

Backpack (1)

Vertical Stabilizers (2)

Legs (6)

Arms (6)

Fuselage – Slide (1)

Fuselage – Dorsal hatch for head (1)

Fuselage – fold over (2)

Fuselage – heat shield (1)

Wings (2)

Head (2)

VF-4 Lightning III (the number of articulated mechanisms required to transform = 26)

Head (1)

Nose (4)

Canards (2)

Arms (2)

Legs (6)

Fuselage (7)

Wings (2)

Stabilizers (2)

As for the VF-4 head, you'll notice that most of the head unit itself is positioned ahead of, and below, the visible "cone" that rests upon the dorsal fuselage. The top VF-4 schematic also shows that the "cone" section itself is not nearly as small as it appears on the VF-4 beauty art. Two very important facts to keep in mind.

TheLoneWolf

It's not exactly official Macross fact, but more a reality of animation. Television series have historically required simpler figures and characters in order to make animating them faster and easier. A 49 episode series like Macross 7 would require the animators to produce far more animation on tighter deadlines as opposed to a film or 4-part OVA. As a result, one simply makes the objects that need to be animated simpler; an object with fewer lines/details means it's faster and easier to animate.

NightmareEX

Yes, I'm still waiting for the chance to obtain some high resolution scans of the VF-0D line art before adding it to the Macross Mecha Manual.

[azrael]

TheLoneWolf

It's not exactly official Macross fact, but more a reality of animation. Television series have historically required simpler figures and characters in order to make animating them faster and easier. A 49 episode series like Macross 7 would require the animators to produce far more animation on tighter deadlines as opposed to a film or 4-part OVA. As a result, one simply makes the objects that need to be animated simpler; an object with fewer lines/details means it's faster and easier to animate.

And just to back Mr. March up here with a more recent example. Gundam 00's animators complained to Director Mizushima about animating the mecha designs back in Season 1 enough that the designers made 2 sets of artwork, one for the animators, and one for the Gunpla people which has much more details for season 2.

For example: 00 Gundam

Image on the left was taken from when 00 Gundam debuted in Newtype Magazine. The one on the right is one month later.

Now compare with the Gunpla instruction booklet (courtesy of dalong.net) http://dalong.net/review/00/0111/0111_i.htm

And now compare with the picture from the official website: http://www.gundam00.net/ms/index.html

So yes, even in a time where we have CGI, you still don't want to make your animators angry at you. Therefore, they make their designs easier for them.

[Sulendil Ang]

Vostok 7

Actually, the VF-4 Lightning III is fairly simple as a transforming design. In fact, the VF-4 transformation is barely anymore complex than the VF-1 Valkyrie. Don't let the final form fool you. Just because the VF-4 battroid isn't streamlined or compact that doesn't mean the transformation process is complex or cumbersome. While making the color code guides for the valkyries, I also went through and counted what I have come to call the number of articulated mechanisms required to transform and came up with the following:

VF-1 Valkyrie (the number of articulated mechanisms required to transform = 24)

Backpack (1)

Vertical Stabilizers (2)

Legs (6)

Arms (6)

Fuselage – Slide (1)

Fuselage – Dorsal hatch for head (1)

Fuselage – fold over (2)

Fuselage – heat shield (1)

Wings (2)

Head (2)

VF-4 Lightning III (the number of articulated mechanisms required to transform = 26)

Head (1)

Nose (4)

Canards (2)

Arms (2)

Legs (6)

Fuselage (7)

Wings (2)

Stabilizers (2)

As for the VF-4 head, you'll notice that most of the head unit itself is positioned ahead of, and below, the visible "cone" that rests upon the dorsal fuselage. The top VF-4 schematic also shows that the "cone" section itself is not nearly as small as it appears on the VF-4 beauty art. Two very important facts to keep in mind.

Hey, March, I wonder if you can give us the numbers for the rest of the VF, for the sake of comparison? At the very least, can you give the the numbers of YF-19 and YF-21? I think they have the most complex form of transformation, aside from SV-51.

[TheLoneWolf]

Thanks for the VF-25 translation, Gubaba! Your hard work is very much appreciated.

edit: oops, wrong thread.

Edited December 24, 2008 by TheLoneWolf

[Mr March]

azrael

Yeah, that's a good example. And Gundam 00 features some of the most detailed and fluid traditional mecha animation in an anime television series. Macross Frontier wisely got around this by going to CG models with tons of detail

Sulendil Ang

Sure, but I don't have access to it right now. I didn't do a list for every valkyrie, but I think I have about a dozen listings.

I think you'll find the result rather shocking. One of the simplest transformation systems Kawamori has ever designed is the YF-21. I believe the number of articulated mechanisms required to transform was 15. The worst? The VF-9 wins by a mile, coming somewhere over 30 if I remember correctly.

[JB0]

TheLoneWolf

It's not exactly official Macross fact, but more a reality of animation. Television series have historically required simpler figures and characters in order to make animating them faster and easier. A 49 episode series like Macross 7 would require the animators to produce far more animation on tighter deadlines as opposed to a film or 4-part OVA. As a result, one simply makes the objects that need to be animated simpler; an object with fewer lines/details means it's faster and easier to animate.

Related: I saw it mentioned somewhere(damned if I can remember where) that the VF-19 design used in Mac7 was heavily altered from the original YF-19 design for that reason.

The fact that it's been greatly simplified is obvious just by looking. The wings and shoulders have been redesigned to eliminate a lot of extra angles, the legs are greatly teched-down(making them look pretty chunky IMO).

Heck, just look at how much detail the vernier slit "ankle bracelet" eliminates.

[sketchley]

Here's another curiousity about the VF-4. The Studio HalfEye VF-4G kit was developed with the supervision and assistance of Kawamori Shouji*. In addition, it has an alternative head (that some members of the community have termed the "command unit" head). Kawamori has even penned lineart for it:

I'm curious what you all consider regarding it's officialness. More images on the kit (and the source of this gorgeous, large scane): http://mactama.com/mt/toy/macross/studio_h...g/vf_4g_top.htm

* http://macross.anime.net/production/models...able/index.html (you'll have to scroll down. There are other sources in Japanese that confirm this.)

Edited December 25, 2008 by sketchley

[Sulendil Ang]

Sulendil Ang

Sure, but I don't have access to it right now. I didn't do a list for every valkyrie, but I think I have about a dozen listings.

I think you'll find the result rather shocking. One of the simplest transformation systems Kawamori has ever designed is the YF-21. I believe the number of articulated mechanisms required to transform was 15. The worst? The VF-9 wins by a mile, coming somewhere over 30 if I remember correctly.

But then, VF-9 is a crap. I sometimes wonder if that thing can even fly or not.

Thanks for the trivia, March! Please post the rest when you're free.

[Protoculture]

Hey March! When you gonna add the Macross VO's Meltran Draug Battlepod? Its freaking hard to find the sweet looking image of it online, but I do stumbled upon one 5 years back .... so to help you out, here it is:

This MacVO Draug pix is from McCain-Ditts, before transformation into M3, the widely & the only available pic online ...

Ahh, this one I believed no one has get their hands on, I present to y'all:

Draug Heavy Assault Battlepod (better than Chicks battlepod ehhh):

[Mr March]

sketchley

That's kinda cool. I don't believe I've seen this alternate head unit on the VF-4 before.

Sulendil Ang

Sorry, the holidays hit and I forgot about this one. I'll post some more soon.

Protoculture

There's nothing I can really use for the Draug other than the small little pictures you posted. I had no plans to include it, but I can add these pictures to a small profile for completeness sake.

[sketchley]

Some more numbers from Model Graphix 291, page 25

VF-4 Lightning III

First third is pretty much the same as http://macross.anime.net/wiki/VF-X-3#Program

Middle third is re the VF-X-4. In short: "VFX-4V1, non-transformable prototype with 80% parts coming from the VF-1. Subsequent VF-X-4, pictured in fighter and gerwalk modes, with battroid mode being a possibility, had just less than 60% of there parts coming from the VF-1."

Last third is nothing new (recap of the VF-4's first deployment).

Based on that, I'm of the opinion that this http://www.robotechresearch.com/rpg/mecha/...ning/vf-x-3.jpg is the VFX-4V1.

[Mr March]

That makes sense, since the VFX-4V1 sounds very VF-1-ish according to the description and the picture looks like nearly all VF-1 parts.

If you like, you can use this improved scan of the "possible VFX-4V1" I scanned from Macross Perfect Memory for your site.

[RedWolf]

Fascinating... Could it be in terms of design lineage that the VFX-4V1 be the predecessor of the bird Capt. Wilen of Macross Galaxy was flying?

[SchizophrenicMC]

Fascinating... Could it be in terms of design lineage that the VFX-4V1 be the predecessor of the bird Capt. Wilen of Macross Galaxy was flying?

Or is it a YF-2SS?

[sketchley]

Fascinating... Could it be in terms of design lineage that the VFX-4V1 be the predecessor of the bird Capt. Wilen of Macross Galaxy was flying?

Not unless the mystery VF is based off of the VF-14.

VF-1 -> VF-X-4 -> VF-4 -> VF-14 (-> Fz-109)

Edited January 3, 2009 by sketchley

[anime52k8]

Or is it a YF-2SS?

dammit, no mater how many times you say it, it's never going to be a VF-2SS!

[SchizophrenicMC]

dammit, no mater how many times you say it, it's never going to be a VF-2SS!

No, but it can be a YF-2SS.... You know, Experimental?

[anime52k8]

No, but it can be a YF-2SS.... You know, Experimental?

but why would they have an prototype for a plane series that doesn't exist? (MacII isn't cannon, it never happened in universe, no matter how much you want it to :P )

[SchizophrenicMC]

but why would they have an prototype for a plane series that doesn't exist? (MacII isn't cannon, it never happened in universe, no matter how much you want it to :P )

It's called "Homage", my friend. SK did it to pay homage to MacII, even though it's not canon.

And maybe it just didn't do so well as a prototype, and that's why it doesn't exist.

Besides, 2095 hasn't happened in the Macross Universe (I can't remember when MacII happened, but I'm pretty sure it's 2095... Correct me if I'm wrong...)

[RedWolf]

Please recite with me.

"Not canon is not canon."

From SK and Studio Nue's POV Macross is their baby.

[Thom]

That makes sense, since the VFX-4V1 sounds very VF-1-ish according to the description and the picture looks like nearly all VF-1 parts.

If you like, you can use this improved scan of the "possible VFX-4V1" I scanned from Macross Perfect Memory for your site.

Okay, I foresee another reason to buy yet ANOTHER Hasegawa VF-1, if only to kitbash that baby! That thing is sweet, a cool mix of the VF-1, the VF-2SS and the VF-4. Are there any pics of its sexy bottom? I want to see what they have under there.

Over on Fan Works, anime52k8, redid the VF-4 with the VF-25 legs and other touches. Pretty cool looking.

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=28584

Edited January 4, 2009 by Thom

[SchizophrenicMC]

Please recite with me.

"Not canon is not canon."

From SK and Studio Nue's POV Macross is their baby.

"Non-canon can be made canon" There. I know a few instances where non-canon material is made canon by the producers, later.

MacII's time in (AU) history hasn't happened in Macross Universe yet, so who's to say it can't?

It's like people saying Peter and Mary Jane would always be a couple, then Stan Lee wrote in the unraveling of their entire history.

"Non-canon can be made canon"

And even then, there's the obvious, actual reason: Homage.

Did you know every Star Wars and Indiana Jones movie had 1138 hidden in it? This, and THX Sound, are homage to George Lucas' original work, THX 1138.

It's obviously designed extremely similar to the VF-2SS, and that's paying (Playful, at that, since MacII wasn't canon) homage to the non-canon work.