Early VF Development

[BEAST]

Trying to trace the history of the development of the VF-0, and I could use a little help. (I did a search, but I couldn't find anything on this particular aspect.) The following is from the Compendium's info on the <VF-X-1> and the <VF-0>, and the relevant part of the <Chronology>.

• FEB-2002 - Tentative plan introduced for all-regime variable combat system for use against giants February 2002; UN Forces' basic requirement for system to incorporate aerospace fighting capability equal to the level of contemporary fighters and ground comabt capability comparable to Destroid series.
• Early 2003 - Development begins on a competing fighter to the F203 [to be known as] VF-X-2 to the fighter [to be known as] VF-1.
• United Nation Forces contract to Stonewell and Bellcom;
• Stonewell and Bellcom solicited the powerplant producer Shinnakasu Heavy Industry (co-developer of reaction engines)
• Stonewell and Bellcom solicited the ground weaponry maker Centinental (co-developer of Destroid series) as partners;
• 2005 - development team completed basic design 2005
• Early 2006 - one non-transformable VF-X flight test machine and one transformable VF-X-1 produced;
• FEB-2007 - first flight February 2007;
• JUN-2007 - space-worthiness tests begin in June 2007.
• SEP-2008 - VF-0 deployed for actual combat and functional testing when delivery of VF-1 Valkyrie variable fighter's thermonuclear reaction engines were delayed. Flown over the South Pacific Ocean island of Mayan during a secret program one to two years before Space War I.
• 23-NOV-2007 - Decision made to formally introduce the VF-X1 November 2007 (public roll-out)
• NOV-2008 - Development and mass production of VF-1A starts November and December of 2008

(First off, I have to say that the Macross "VF-X-1" nomenclature for prototypes is really cumbersome. I prefer the real-life US military system, which uses, for example, "XF-1" for an experimental prototype, "YF-1" for a more highly developed flying test prototype, and "F-1" for the operational model. For Macross purposes, "XF-1", "YF-1", and "VF-1" would've been a lot more user-friendly. )

1. That said, I have some issues with the above chronology. The first one may simply be a typo. In the bolded part, it seems to indicate that the first VF model was the VF-X-2, which would eventually become the VF-1. Is that right? Or was it the VF-X-1 that led to the VF-1? Anyway, given that bolded info from the chrono, my idea is that perhaps the VF-X-1 could have been leading to the VF-0, while perhaps the VF-X-2 led to the VF-1. Loony hypothesis, but there ya go.

2. Alternatively, perhaps the relevant prototypes might've been called the "VF-X-1", which could've greatly resembled the VF-0 with conventional engines; and perhaps the "VF-Y-1", which might've used the new reactor engines and greatly resembled the VF-1. In aircraft history, there have often been very noticeable differences between the "X" and "Y" prototypes, just as I am suggesting here.

Possibly the transforming "VF-X-1" prototype that Roy Fokker was testing in SDFM, Ep.33, should've actually looked more like the VF-0. Or maybe, because Roy's test bird there clearly closely resembled the VF-1, then perhaps he was actually testing the more advanced version of the VF-X-1, say perhaps a "VF-Y-1".

Possibly the VF-X-1 prototype testing was going to be phased out when UN Forces brass caught wind of the thermonuclear reaction engine tech from Overtechnology research, and so the VF-X-1 testing was put on the back burner to continue ahead with VF-Y-1 testing. The decision could've already been made that the VF-Y-1 would definitely serve as the basis for the eventually operational VF-1.

But then, when the reactor engines were delayed and the need for an immediately available VF arose in M0, the proven conventionally-powered VF-X-1 design which Fokker had already been testing was rushed into operational service as the "VF-0", in order to avoid confusion with the "VF-1" moniker, which had already been reserved by UN Forces brass for the service version of the VF-Y-1 reactor-powered prototype.

Just trying to offer a feasible rationalization. That's all.

[sketchley]

I'll attempt to answer some of the questions:

First off (...)

Macross is made in Japan, by Japanese, for Japanese. For all we know, they are following Japanese nomenclature, or being confusing just to be confusing (as has been known when it comes to the incorrectly romanized English versions of the names of Zentraedi people and equipment.)

1. Hypothesis sounds good. However, reading the development of the VF-1 will clarify things.

VF-X (non-transformable) -> VF-X-1 -> VF-1.

In reading just the 'Early 2003' statement, it implies that there were both a VF-X-1, and a VF-X-2. The VF-X-2 being designed to compete against the F-203 fighter, in, what I presume was, a fighter flyoff or competition, a la the F-21 vs. F-23, JSF F-35, Macross Plus, etc., etc.. This is supported by the existance of the VF-X-3, which competed with the VF-X-4; the VF-X-4 becoming the VF-4.

http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat...vfx3/index.html

2. The VF-0 only came into existance after the VF-1 had completed the designing process, and manufacturing had begun.* The reason it exists is because the thermonuclear engines of the VF-1 were delayed (design? manufacturing?). The VF-0 carries conventional, albiet overtuned, jet engines - which explains the larger body size: engines require more space, and the fuel they drink needs more space as well.

* The reason for this overlap is that the VF-0 was rewritten into the Macross timeline some 20+ years after it was originally written.

Edited January 7, 2007 by sketchley

[Skull-1]

The correct designation would be:

YVF-1 and XVF-1 at any rate.

[SpacyAce2012]

An excellent bit of reasoning on this thread. However, I have one minor nitpick.

The F203 Dragon II, a conventional fighter incorporating some early breakthroughs in deciphering OT, was designed in 2001. And formally adopted as the U.N.'s main fighter in 2003 (active service). The "Battroid"/VF program didn't get started until 2002, too early for a ready prototype to fly-off against the F203.

In any case, the non-transforming testbed (VF-X) and transforming prototype (VF-X-1) hadn't completed their design phase until 2005. And the first flight didn't occur until Feb. 2007.

The VF-X-2 would also be too early in the development phase for a fly-off against the F-203. And it was intended as competition against the VF-X-1 proposal in any case. Not the F-203 program, since a transforming design was going to replace it eventually anyway.

So there was no VF prototype available for a fly-off against the Dragon II that early in the game. Factoring in the use of old, refurbished aircraft from the member states ( the F-14 Tomcat, for example), and relative quickness the Dragon II went from drawing board to active duty, it's a good chance that the F203 had no competeing designs for that particular contract.

Edited January 7, 2007 by SpacyAce2012

[BEAST]

1. Hypothesis sounds good.

An excellent bit of reasoning on this thread.

Thank ye kindly, gents. I try.

The correct designation would be:

YVF-1 and XVF-1 at any rate.

Gotcha. That would be more akin to actual US nomenclature, and it's what I meant to type, but I erred there.

The VF-X-2 would also be too early in the development phase for a fly-off against the F-203.

I thought that, as well. It seemed odd to me that the official chrono mentions the VF-X-2 not only so early, but before the VF-X-1. And why mention the VF-X-2 in connection with the VF-1?

Here is the actual word-for-word text from the <official chrono>:

2003

F203 formally adopted as main fighter of the U.N. Forces.

Development begins on a competing fighter [to be known as] VF-X-2 to the fighter [to be known as] VF-1.

When you consider the odd grammatical syntax in that line in addition to the other questions above, it makes me think that that line probably has a typo.

As I now look at that line again, it looks like perhaps I mis-read it. Perhaps that line means that a conceptual fly-off was being envisioned between the VF-X-2 and the VF-X-1 (which would eventually lead to the VF-1). The competition wasn't between the VF-X-2 and a fighter to be known as the VF-1, per sé, as indicated above, but rather, the competition was between the VF-X-2 prototype and the VF-X-1 prototype, with the prize being selection as the operational fighter VF-1.

So whom to contact: this...Egan Loo fellow?

[jenius]

So whom to contact: this...Egan Loo fellow?

You don't find Egan Loo... he finds YOU.

LOL, ignore that.

Macross is made in Japan, by Japanese, for Japanese. For all we know, they are following Japanese nomenclature, or being confusing just to be confusing (as has been known when it comes to the incorrectly romanized English versions of the names of Zentraedi people and equipment.)

It's pretty clear that the creators of Macross made efforts to copy military structures and nomenclatures outside of Japan but just used everything as a loose framework. So it's inconsistent but hardly out of an attempt to be clever in a confusing fashion. If it's an example of them just lifting the Japanese way of doing things it seems pretty odd since most aspects seem to emulate English-speaking/structured militaries. Now, if you're suggesting it was just poorly researched, they thought it sounded cooler, or they figured no one in Japan or anywhere else would ever care enough to dig into it, that I could totally understand.

[azrael]

First off (...)

Macross is made in Japan, by Japanese, for Japanese. For all we know, they are following Japanese nomenclature, or being confusing just to be confusing (as has been known when it comes to the incorrectly romanized English versions of the names of Zentraedi people and equipment.)

It's pretty clear that the creators of Macross made efforts to copy military structures and nomenclatures outside of Japan but just used everything as a loose framework. So it's inconsistent but hardly out of an attempt to be clever in a confusing fashion. If it's an example of them just lifting the Japanese way of doing things it seems pretty odd since most aspects seem to emulate English-speaking/structured militaries. Now, if you're suggesting it was just poorly researched, they thought it sounded cooler, or they figured no one in Japan or anywhere else would ever care enough to dig into it, that I could totally understand.

I should also remind you people that rationalizing the nomenclature of a fantasy series with real life nomenclature will get you nowhere as it is a fantasy; not real. Part of it is to sound cool, the other is to differentiate from the real world. They name it according to what they want...not what it should or could be.

You don't find Egan Loo... he finds YOU.

Quiet boy! Are you trying to wake Egan from his slumber!!!!???

[HangPC2]

UN Spacy VF-X/VF-X-1 (Prototypes)

* VF-X - Fighter mode only, aerodynamic testing craft.

* VF-X-1 - Advanced prototype, similar to production type.

Sources : Macross Journal Extra - VF-1 Valkyrie - Special Edition (1984)

PDF:

http://rapidshare.com/files/47849670/Macro...alkyrie_pdf.rar

CBR:

http://rapidshare.com/files/47848530/Macro...alkyrie_cbr.rar

Password: macrosshare.blogspot.com

[VF5SS]

That's only a doujin. That information is not entirely official. Also, the new chronology in the Macross Chronicles states that the VF-0's first flight was in 2004.

[Duke Togo]

* The reason for this overlap is that the VF-0 was rewritten into the Macross timeline some 20+ years after it was originally written.

Retcon!

[nathan]

Here is the actual word-for-word text from the <official chrono>:

QUOTE

2003

F203 formally adopted as main fighter of the U.N. Forces.

Development begins on a competing fighter [to be known as] VF-X-2 to the fighter [to be known as] VF-1.

I think you might be combining two separate things into one. I think it's two separate events happening in the same year. In 2003 the F203 was formally adopted as the main UN Fighter. Also in 2003 development began on the VF-X-2 as a compeditor to the VF-1, which had been in development since 2002.

I've seen the VFX-E303 Valkyrie in other books. I thought it was just pre-production art. Is it or is it actually a VF-X-???

[Skull Leader]

The sky angels book may have only been a a doujin, but it was a brilliant one.

[TehPW]

you know, since M0, came out, how do you even know if the F-14+ Kai also RETCON's the entire existance of the F-203 Dragon II (or the Anti-UN's fighter from SDFM RETCON'd into the SV-51)?

[sketchley]

you know, since M0, came out, how do you even know if the F-14+ Kai also RETCON's the entire existance of the F-203 Dragon II (or the Anti-UN's fighter from SDFM RETCON'd into the SV-51)?

They still exist. For example, F-203 Dragon II can be seen in Macross the First.

Aside from the creative reasons for not showing them, there's the focus by both sides in M0 to use the newly introduced Variable Fighters, as well as the AUA not having a (traditional) carrier to field their fighter, and the UF side relying on unmanned fighters or F-14+ Kai to take up the slack, because of the attrition in aircraft and pilots in the decade of fighting up until then.

[Seto Kaiba]

you know, since M0, came out, how do you even know if the F-14+ Kai also RETCON's the entire existance of the F-203 Dragon II (or the Anti-UN's fighter from SDFM RETCON'd into the SV-51)?

Well... if the coverage in Macross Chronicle and Variable Fighter Master File is anything to go by, the MiM-31 and F203 were not retconned out of existence or replaced by the F-14+ Kai and SV-51. There's plenty of room, in-universe, for both to exist side by side. It's not like planes just get replaced when a new model comes out, the old ones get upgraded in various areas while newer designs are gradually phased into service.

The F203 Dragon II was a new design introduced in 2003, so the UN Forces would've continued using large numbers of the pre-OTM fighters they already had... upgrading them with various improvements as technology advances. There were, after all, like 700 F-14s out there to play with. Likewise, the MiM-31 was probably a lot more common than the SV-51... the latter having only an estimated 40 units produced in total.

(As a fun side note, Volume 1 of the VF-1 Master File identifies F203s as part of the Prometheus's aircraft complement, a Navy variant with an alternate designation of F/A-20N.)

[azrael]

Just to follow down that thought from sketchley and Seto, the VF-25 was earmarked to be the new VF but that doesn't mean all other VFs were pushed out of service. VF-19s still exist in-service. VF-11s still exist in-service. Even VF-1s still exist in-service. As Macross-continuity likes to point out, VFs and pilots use up money. And just because one series shows new stuff being used in one part of the world or galaxy, doesn't mean other fighter-craft are not used elsewhere.

Aside from the creative reasons for not showing them, there's the focus by both sides in M0 to use the newly introduced Variable Fighters, as well as the AUA not having a (traditional) carrier to field their fighter, and the UF side relying on unmanned fighters or F-14+ Kai to take up the slack, because of the attrition in aircraft and pilots in the decade of fighting up until then.

It's not like planes just get replaced when a new model comes out, the old ones get upgraded in various areas while newer designs are gradually phased into service.

The F203 Dragon II was a new design introduced in 2003, so the UN Forces would've continued using large numbers of the pre-OTM fighters they already had... upgrading them with various improvements as technology advances. There were, after all, like 700 F-14s out there to play with. Likewise, the MiM-31 was probably a lot more common than the SV-51... the latter having only an estimated 40 units produced in total.

With nearly 10 years of fighting, one wonders how many F-203s were made and shot down. Hence, they have to fill the void of pilots without fighters to pilot. I'm sure F-14s and whatever else they had left were upgraded with newer parts and pressed back into service. Same for the AUA. I'm sure the AUA didn't have massive quantities of MiM-31s out there so they had to fill it up with whatever they had left, like an old MiG-29.

And would every squadron out there get a fancy new plane? No. Not immediately anyways. Not every squadron in the USAF is getting a F-22 tomorrow. Not every carrier in the US Navy is getting complement of F-35s next week. There are perfectly good F-16s and F/A-18s that should be used before the new stuff comes rolling in. I expect the same policy in the Macross-universe.

There's a nice Tenjin-art that illustrates the point. It shows a VF-19 flying over a carrier and on the deck of that carrier is a mix of VF-19s and VF-11s. You go with what you got.

[Mr March]

The thing that needs retconning about the F-203 Dragon II is those 16mm guns into 30mm guns, if that could even be considered a retconn

I don't believe any Studio Nue Macross designs have been retconned out of the "main continuity". Big West continues to publish and re-publish all the intellectual property (IP) for Macross in successive products like the Macross Chronicle, even going so far as to update and revise presentation and in-universe trivia. As I've mentioned before, our only option as fans is accepting ALL the production material of Macross as valid; any contradictions or continuity problems are irrelvant to the official continuity. Unless the status of a Macross production or publication is explicitly declared otherwise (ie. Macross II, the Variable Fighter Master File series, etc) we fans have to accept it all and reconcile, even if it seems silly

From a production perspective, it makes good business sense to keep all the production materials circulating. Anime production companies spend a lot of money paying artists/designers to create all this material, so it makes sense to continue profiting from all the IP that's been built as long as there is still consumer demand for it. Why not, as long as we're willing to pay for it

[Zinjo]

Just to follow down that thought from sketchley and Seto, the VF-25 was earmarked to be the new VF but that doesn't mean all other VFs were pushed out of service. VF-19s still exist in-service. VF-11s still exist in-service. Even VF-1s still exist in-service. As Macross-continuity likes to point out, VFs and pilots use up money. And just because one series shows new stuff being used in one part of the world or galaxy, doesn't mean other fighter-craft are not used elsewhere.

There is another point that seems to be missing in this discussion. The point being the revelation that the UN Federal Government is not necessarily supplying the fighters of the colony worlds and emigration fleets any longer, but rather allowing them to develop their own fighters based upon Federally developed tech. The VF-25 and VF-27 are both products of this new policy. The Feds may or may not adopt the VF-25 design into federal fleets, but it is certainly being produced for the Frontier colony and the design likley licensed to other fleets as well.

IIRC, Macross the Ride implied that not all Federal Tech is shared with colonial governments, leaving the idea open that federal fighters may or may not be what we see shown in Frontier or "Delta". The Galaxy Network has become so large that central government control has become impractical. So by extension, their control over what equipment autonomous members of the network use is limited. This also gave rise to companies like LAI and SMS to fill in the gaps. The Feds may employ withheld technologies into their own fighters to maintain their competitive "edge" in case a colony chooses to attack a federal fleet or installation.

From a production point of view, it opens the door to all sorts of VF designs and variations of existing designs under the premise that colonies and emigration fleets can and do produce fighter craft suited to their own specific requirements. It would appear that the days of singular aircraft adoption by all Galaxy Network members is over. This may have ended sometime in the 2050's.

Edited February 3, 2015 by Zinjo

[Mr March]

That's a very interesting theory. I can see how Kawamori would be attracted to something like that, given how he loves to work in worlds with as many open-end possiblities as he can. This theory is actually quite a good fit for Macross.

[TehPW]

That also makes me think about the storyline in BATTLETECH: During the lead up to the Amaris Coup, the Terran Hegmony did anything it could to keep a compeditive edge with it's neighbors in the Inner Sphere... and in the end, the Hegmony still crumbled... I wonder if that might happen in the Macross universe? It's a common theme in historical literature after all.

[David Hingtgen]

I think a big issue may be raw "timeline". As in, a fleet will likely upgrade to the 'best available at that time'----but few fleets will have the resources to upgrade very often. So they will likely "skip" several models. Example:

Fleet A may go VF-4, VF-9, VF-14, VF-19, VF-25

Fleet B may go VF-1, VF-11, VF-22, VF-30

Fleet C may go VF-1, VF-5000, VF-17, VF-29

You can assume Earth's own forces may get "each and every new version" due to its importance, but most colony fleets---probably not that often.

[Zinjo]

I think a big issue may be raw "timeline". As in, a fleet will likely upgrade to the 'best available at that time'----but few fleets will have the resources to upgrade very often. So they will likely "skip" several models. Example:

Fleet A may go VF-4, VF-9, VF-14, VF-19, VF-25

Fleet B may go VF-1, VF-11, VF-22, VF-30

Fleet C may go VF-1, VF-5000, VF-17, VF-29

You can assume Earth's own forces may get "each and every new version" due to its importance, but most colony fleets---probably not that often.

That too is a likely possibility. Available resources for emigration fleets would play a large factor as well. Old fighter materials would need to be recycled and new ones mined to supply the raw materials to build hundreds of replacement fighters during the upgrade process.

The Macross 25 fleet initially used the VF-171 as their front line fleet fighter, so it is conceivable that say the Macross 11 fleet may still use the VF-19 as their front line fighter, but plan to upgrade the the VF-25 or 29.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Zinjo

[Seto Kaiba]

That's a very interesting theory. I can see how Kawamori would be attracted to something like that, given how he loves to work in worlds with as many open-end possiblities as he can. This theory is actually quite a good fit for Macross.

IIRC, that's not really a theory... that's part of the actual backstory for the YF-24 Evolution. I know Great Mechanics.DX 9's VF Evolutionary Theory article makes a few remarks here and there about the New UN Forces having [withheld/not disclosed] certain technological advances that went into the YF-24 Evolution when they shared the specs with the emigrant fleets. 'course, the way it's written it could also be taken as going both ways... that the emigrant fleets don't always disclose the technological advances they make to the New UN Forces either (as in the case of Macross Galaxy's VF-27 Lucifer).

That too is a likely possibility. Available resources for emigration fleets would play a large factor as well. Old fighter materials would need to be recycled and new ones mined to supply the raw materials to build hundreds of replacement fighters during the upgrade process.

The Macross 25 fleet initially used the VF-171 as their front line fleet fighter, so it is conceivable that say the Macross 11 fleet may still use the VF-19 as their front line fighter, but plan to upgrade the the VF-25 or 29.

Let's not forget that "locally produced variants" are a thing too... Macross the Ride shared a few of them with us, like the VF-19EF Caliburn (a Macross Frontier fleet variant of the VF-19E), the VF-19C/MG21 Excalibur (a Macross Galaxy-specific VF-19C).

[BEAST]

Seto Kaiba, on 07 Feb 2015 - 11:56, said:

IIRC, that's not really a theory... that's part of the actual backstory for the YF-24 Evolution.

I was gonna say that it sounded a lot like a mechanical equivalent to the sort of specialized biological evolution that we see in isolated regions, such as the Galapagos Islands. Each Fleet begins to take on a sort of "isolated island" feel the further out from Earth that it moves.

Macrapagos Islands?

Macragos Islands?

Galapacross Islands?

[Seto Kaiba]

I was gonna say that it sounded a lot like a mechanical equivalent to the sort of specialized biological evolution that we see in isolated regions, such as the Galapagos Islands. Each Fleet begins to take on a sort of "isolated island" feel the further out from Earth that it moves.

Just going from what we've seen thus far, the various emigrant fleets seem to have had a pretty free hand in determining how to arm their military escort detail.

A less-extreme version of this sort of thing has happened before. Megaroad-13's garrison force, which settled in the Varauta system, opted to go for the VF-14 Vampire over the UN Spacy's current main fighter... the VF-11.

Variable Fighter Master File sort of ties the whole YF-24 thing together with "Project Triangler", which was a multi-fleet joint venture to develop next-generation variable fighters based on the YF-24 Evolution spec. It's not part of the official Macross setting, but it's still an interesting effort to tie the VF-25 and VF-27 into one project... which had Macross Frontier, Galaxy, and Olympia each developing their own prototype with the theoretical goal that the fleets would adopt one of the three (YF-25, YF-26, YF-27) as the next main fighter.