Cause and Effect

[Scream Man]

So i know that the VF fighter series is based on Overtechnology. I think roy mentions at some point early in Macross zero that they use a special material to make the 0's, which presumably means the ther fighters have a version of it. Whatever valks are made of, they can survive a fair bit; battoroids crash through buildings and do commando rolls with no hassles whatsover. Hell, even just the act of walking would shake a normal airframe apart! These planes also can reenter Earths atmosphere with no additional heat shielding, or at least they can by the 19 series (And Im sure Hikaru deos it in macross when he saves Misa).

But weapons shells go through valsk like butter. i mean missles, bullets, laser canons (Or whatever it is Zentradi shoot) all tear valsk to pieces really easily. So what is it that makes weapons tear through a valk like paper, but lets it survive most otehr blunt force trauma and heat related trauma with no hassles?

What the hell are these things made of? and whats the Ammo made of?

[eugimon]

in mac zero, they mention that the skin of the valks have some sort of energy transfer technology called swag. takes kinetic energy and transfers it magically into the structure of the material, increasing its durability. Which is why valks can crash into building, cut cars in half with their wings... stuff like that.

I don't know if we're ever told what material the ammunition is actually made up of, but I would assume that since the SWAG armor would be fairly well known, that a suitably dense material was used that could penetrate it. Kind of like how modern day deplete uranium slugs are used against modern armor.

Or perhaps it's even a limitation of the swag technology? maybe it's good at converting large dispersed impacts but bad at handling extremely localized trauma?

[sketchley]

Who knows. OTEC armor, OTEC weapons... the arms race continues well into the space age.

It may not be that the bullets are *heavier* than current bullets of the same calibre. They may be firing faster (OTEC in the gunpowder? rail gun type magnetic accelerator in the barrels to assist the chemical propellant?) The bullets themselves are probably coated with the OTEC version of teflon, with some type of micro-HEAT or HESH warhead.

Though the limitation of SW-AG tech does make sense. The molecular bonds are strengthened so that the material as a whole can perform feats above and beyond what it normally can, however, SW-AG energy conversion has no effect against 'pin pricks' by bullets and energy weapons.

That, or all the mecha in Macross have their propellant or reactant stored just under (or even inside of!) the armour, so any AP round that penetrates sets of a catastrophic explosion...

Edited January 7, 2007 by sketchley

[Dante74]

IIRC the armor on VF's is made of technology found in ASS-1, but it could also be that it's made of A-MAG material.

[Mr March]

I remember bringing up this point some years before Macross Zero was released. Up until that point, the only mention of the materials used in the valkyrie were terms like "space metal" for the hull and frame, or a mention in the film "Macross: Do You Remember Love?" stating that the hull of the Macross was made of something called "hypercarbon."

The properties of these materials were unknown and obviously won't be expounded upon in any further detail any time soon. Nevertheless, it is clear that the intention behind these sci-fi sounding materials is to emphasize that yes, the OverTechnology of the Macross did result in a significant advance in materials science, such that it was possible to give enormous superior strutural strength to a light weight vehicle like a jet fighter and thus allow it to crash into the ground intact (VT-1 in DYRL) or smash through a bridge (Hikaru in DYRL?). As you've said, an ordinairy airframe would be ripped to shreds by those kinds of accidents.

Valkyries can indeed cope with atmospheric re-entry unassisted. Hikaru's VF-1S re-enter's Earth's atmosphere in Episode 27 "Love Drifts Away". And as you mentioned, Isamu's YF-19 actually tumbles uncontrolled through re-entry in Macross Plus. However impressive these feats are, it's important to remember that high heat resistance does not necessarily equate to projectile resistance, though as a military craft we can assume the valkyries are designed so (and the anime's would support such a claim).

Macross Zero finally gives at least some answer to the question of valkyrie armor (eugimon mentions this in his post). The variable fighters are equipped with what is called SWAG energy converting armor, which utilizies the incredible power generation abilities of the reaction engine and shunts the extra power into the hull of the craft, significantly increase resistance of the armor. How this is achieved is not explained (perhaps this is where some energy sensitive hull material comes into play, like the previously established "space metal" or "hypercarbon"). However, Roy Focker does mention that the SWAG converting armor makes the hull of the Valkyrie as tough as a tank.

Going into weaponry, no matter how strong the armor on a vehicle, a weapon will always be invented to overcome it. For a 13 ton VF-1 Valkyrie to have armor as tough as a 60 ton tank is a miraculous acheivement thanks to OverTechnology. However, OverTechnology also allowed this same advanced materials science to be used for projectiles and OT introduced both practical particle and laser beam weapons. Needless to say this would have a significant effect on the penetrating power of a new generation of military weaponry. If they made a 55 mm shell out of some advanced "space metal" or "hypercarbon", it goes without saying that this kind of projectile would have greatly increased penetrating power.

Also, the UN Spacy could have made significant advances in cannon muzzle velocity. Get an object going fast enough and you can make a penny go through a battleship. That's an extreme example, but ballistic velocities are a very significant factor. The only mention of muzzle velocity I've found in any of the Macross literature is a small mention in the profile for Mk X Defender destroid. The 78 mm guns on the Defender have a muzzle velocity of 3,300 meters per second. To give you a real world example for comparison, the U.S. M1A1 Abrams tank uses a 120 mm cannon with a muzzle velocity of 1,776 meters per second. So already we can see that a destroid's weapons are firing at over twice the velocity of arguably the best tank cannon in the world today.

It's pretty safe to say that the 55 mm gunpod on the VF-1 probably has a much faster muzzle velocity compared to 55 mm cannons today. It's probably a safe bet to speculate that in Macross, the introduction of OverTechnology has made the size of the round used much less important than the material of the round and the muzzle velocity. Indeed, the VF-11 in Macross Plus uses a 30 mm gunpod, much smaller than the old VF-1 55 mm gun. This would indeed lean towards the theory that the UN Spacy can make more devastating weapons with ever more penetrating power using ever smaller rounds and suggests an eventual move into hyper ballistics like coilguns or railguns. In fact, given the impressive muzzle velocity of the Defender destroid, one could argue that the UN Spacy has already achieved mastery of hyper ballistics.

Well, that was fun

Edited January 7, 2007 by Mr March

[SpacyAce2012]

I think Mr. March hit the nail squarely on the head in regards to weaponry. But I would like to expand on that a bit. It is entirely possible that certain concepts in anti-armor ammunition, proven on various battlefields of Pre-Fall Earth, were incorporated into so-called "anti-giant" weapon systems. Examples would be HEAT, Sabot, KE penetrators, etc. Just "tweaked" to compensate for what was known about advanced alien metallurgy. Starting from what you know, and working from proven concepts, is a wise course of action.

As for the materials on the VFs, I always assumed that the VF-1s were manufactured using super-tough (and light weight) OT materials. Makes sense, since breakthroughs in materials chemistry occured early on, and it's implied that such was incorporated into the F-203 Dragon II (the Valkyrie's predecessor as the main fighter in U.N. service)

I not entirely sure on the VF-0. My take on that was, since it was a test-bed (not intended for general service or mass production), it was built using the strongest/most durable aerospace-grade materials available to Earth science (pre-Fall). That way, costs would be kept down and they could be made readily available/manufactured quickly for testing. The VF program appeared to be falling behind schedule due to problems with the new engines. And judging by the frantic pace in development/deployment of new systems from 2001-2009, the rampant paranoia regarding alien invasion was still high. Thus, such delays were unacceptable and a "quickie" VF test-type to iron out the bugs would be a welcome alternative. I'm also guessing that this was the rationale behind the private venture that produced the SV-51.

Then there was the continuing activities by the (still very dangerous) Anti-United Nations elements, despite the "official" end of the U.N. Wars (as evident in Macross Zero). The U.N. Forces would have wanted any edge they could get to counter this problem. Hence, another reason it was combat capable.

The use of more conventional materials in the VF-0 would explain the need for the SWAG system (not to mention, an ample oppurtunity to test such a system). Normal aerospace composites/metals, in all likelyhood, wouldn't have held up to the constant strain of the VF's radical structural transformations, Battroid/GERWALK operations, or "mecha style" combat. SWAG would be the solution to such a problem. It would also make conventional material more resistant against conventional/advanced munitions.

But this is all based on the assumption that the VF-0 didn't use (or fully utilize) OT materials. Even if it did, the use of SWAG would be an excellent means to make the unit even harder to kill.

Just a few thoughts on the matter. While Macross is a work of fiction, it's still an enjoyable excercise to speculate on possibilities.

[BEAST]

Or perhaps it's even a limitation of the swag technology? maybe it's good at converting large dispersed impacts but bad at handling extremely localized trauma?

It think that that is a limit of any armor technology. Strengthening materials can help to dissipate or redistribute impact forces through the material lattice of the armor up to a point, but there is probably always some sort of maximum threshold on the localized pressure that an armor rig can take.

KEVLAR, for example, can take bullet shots from a distance where the bullet has slowed down a bit, but not usually direct, point-blank-range shots. The localized pressure exceeds the fibers' ability to redirect the shock laterally, and so the fibers fail and the impact breaches through to the wearer's body.

Perhaps SW-AG is some sort of "force field" projected through the VF's metal skin, ala Star Trek? It can repel or dispel energy beams to a point, especially with respect to relatively-low-energy projectile mass impacts or large-area collisions; but up the energy amplitude or tweak it to the right frequency and get a direct hit, and you can slice right on through, like a bowie knife puncturing through a cop's vest.

WORDS OF WISDOM: Never stop moving in a fight, because slowing down increases the chances of a direct, perpendicular hit. Glancing blows are always preferable.

[Scream Man]

Much obliged all Some great responses there

[Mr March]

I think Mr. March hit the nail squarely on the head in regards to weaponry. But I would like to expand on that a bit.

The use of more conventional materials in the VF-0 would explain the need for the SWAG system (not to mention, an ample oppurtunity to test such a system). Normal aerospace composites/metals, in all likelyhood, wouldn't have held up to the constant strain of the VF's radical structural transformations, Battroid/GERWALK operations, or "mecha style" combat. SWAG would be the solution to such a problem. It would also make conventional material more resistant against conventional/advanced munitions.

That's a big leap IMO and not likely the case. We don't know what material is used in the VF-0, so I'd be hesitant to suppose it's something conventional and far different from the VF-1 just because the VF-0 is an earlier model. Aside from the aforementioned engines, everything we see in the anime suggests the VF-0 functions identically to a VF-1, max velocity differences aside. The official literature for the SWAG states that the energy converting technology is a part of future variable fighters, so the VF-0 is the rule and not the exception. Still, it's not a bad idea to speculate, but personally, I wouldn't go that far off the "knowns" if you follow my meaning.

Perhaps SW-AG is some sort of "force field" projected through the VF's metal skin, ala Star Trek? It can repel or dispel energy beams to a point, especially with respect to relatively-low-energy projectile mass impacts or large-area collisions; but up the energy amplitude or tweak it to the right frequency and get a direct hit, and you can slice right on through, like a bowie knife puncturing through a cop's vest.

The SWAG is definitely not a force field as it is described in the Macross universe. It does not protect the armor itself prior to impact. Likely the energy used in strengthening SWAG armor has something to do with the molecular bonds of the material atoms, possibly even something as simple as amplifying the strength of chemical bonding. The closest thing in Macross to the traditional science fiction concept of a force field is definitely the Pin-Point Barrier/Full-Barrier systems, and even those appear to be more akin to energy absorbers. Naturally, I'd be loathe to equate anything in any franchise to Trek

[Mr March]

Much obliged all Some great responses there

It's geek-out time!

[azrael]

This would indeed lean towards the theory that the UN Spacy can make more devastating weapons with ever more penetrating power using ever smaller rounds and suggests an eventual move into hyper ballistics like coilguns or railguns.

They already have railguns....

http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat...ross/index.html

[Graham]

The use of more conventional materials in the VF-0 would explain the need for the SWAG system (not to mention, an ample oppurtunity to test such a system). Normal aerospace composites/metals, in all likelyhood, wouldn't have held up to the constant strain of the VF's radical structural transformations, Battroid/GERWALK operations, or "mecha style" combat. SWAG would be the solution to such a problem. It would also make conventional material more resistant against conventional/advanced munitions.

But this is all based on the assumption that the VF-0 didn't use (or fully utilize) OT materials. Even if it did, the use of SWAG would be an excellent means to make the unit even harder to kill.

According to the Macross Compendium, the vF-0 did make use of conventional materials for the outer skin. See: -

STRUCTURE: Space metal materials are used for the composition of the fuselage's frame, but titanium/carbon composite is used for the outer skin. Due to AWAG/RA 105 SWAG energy converting armor which uses Overtechnology, the VF-0 can employ surplus power to triple the Fighter mode's armor strength in Battroid mode. (Future variable fighters will incorporate similar technology.)

Graham

[Mr March]

According to the Macross Compendium, the vF-0 did make use of conventional materials for the outer skin. See: -

STRUCTURE: Space metal materials are used for the composition of the fuselage's frame, but titanium/carbon composite is used for the outer skin. Due to AWAG/RA 105 SWAG energy converting armor which uses Overtechnology, the VF-0 can employ surplus power to triple the Fighter mode's armor strength in Battroid mode. (Future variable fighters will incorporate similar technology.)

Graham

Wow. Excellent quote. I stand corrected. The VF-0 does use conventional hull materials according to the literature. I wonder if this is the case for all the variable fighters or just the VF-0. Thanks Graham.

[Mr March]

They already have railguns....

http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat...ross/index.html

I knew that one, but we were talking about mecha scale weaponry. So far, I'm not aware if any mecha sized unit in Macross that uses something like a coilgun or railgun.

[Graham]

Wow. Excellent quote. I stand corrected. The VF-0 does use conventional hull materials according to the literature. I wonder if this is the case for all the variable fighters or just the VF-0. Thanks Graham.

Can't find where I read it, but I seem to recall hearing that it was only the case with the VF-0, not with other VFs.

Graham

[Mr March]

Can't find where I read it, but I seem to recall hearing that it was only the case with the VF-0, not with other VFs.

Graham

Really? That would be invaluable to me if you could quote a source. It's kinda...necessary for some upcoming...stuff. Don't want to spoil it, but I'd really like as much concrete info on the subject that you've got.