Anyone have the GitS Blu-ray edition yet?

[isamu]

Does anyone have any impressions of the newly released GitS 2: Innocence BluRay DVD?

I need this NOW! Please tell me where I can buy it ASAP!!!

[sketchley]

Oh! This is making me interested in the Blue Ray - erm, PS3, all the more so.

I can't say much more than what I just found with a quick google search:

Released on December 6th.

It's the international version. It has subtitles in Taiwanese, Japanese, English, French, and Korean languages.

It looks like it has the same extras (plus more???) as the two-disc 'standard' DVD release.

Here's a page (in Japanese) with the most information that I found: http://www.dvd.netyokocho.jp/catalog/VWBS-1013/

[bandit29]

Does anyone have any impressions of the newly released GitS 2: Innocence BluRay DVD?

I need this NOW! Please tell me where I can buy it ASAP!!!

its called google. Place like yesasia.com probably have it. I've read a few impressions over at animeondvd.com

too bad this has to be one of the first anime blu-ray movies...yuck

Edited December 22, 2006 by dejr8bud

[isamu]

its called google. Place like yesasia.com probably have it. I've read a few impressions over at animeondvd.com

too bad this has to be one of the first anime blu-ray movies...yuck

What do you mean "yuck"? It's the greatest movie of all time, and I haven't even SEEN it yet!

[JB0]

What do you mean "yuck"? It's the greatest movie of all time, and I haven't even SEEN it yet!

Oh, please...

It's a sequel to an overhyped pile of steaming crap that was based on a pretty decent license.

Go watch SAC instead. At least Shirow's involved in that one.

[JELEINEN]

Oh, please...

It's a sequel to an overhyped pile of steaming crap that was based on a pretty decent license.

Go watch SAC instead. At least Shirow's involved in that one.

While I agree the first movie blew goats, Innocence was pure awesome.

[chrono]

Oh, please...

It's a sequel to an overhyped pile of steaming crap that was based on a pretty decent license.

Agreed. It's the second worse purchase I ever made on a DVD. The first was Gundam's Endless Waltz.

And why would you want to see it in HD form anyways? You're only gonna see less detail because it was CG'ed for a lower resolution, so in order to get the better imagery they would have to do the entire movie.

HD is worthless for animes.

[Poonman]

its too bad this movie is out on Beta-Ray and not HD-DVD..

[JB0]

Agreed. It's the second worse purchase I ever made on a DVD. The first was Gundam's Endless Waltz.

And why would you want to see it in HD form anyways? You're only gonna see less detail because it was CG'ed for a lower resolution, so in order to get the better imagery they would have to do the entire movie.

HD is worthless for animes.

Actually, GITS2 was rendered to be printed out to film and projected on movie screens. You know, those bigass 50-foot things?

Believe me, it was rendered with shitloads more detail than a DVD can display.

Whether HD is worth anything for anime depends greatly on the source.

On material intended for viewing in a theater or on an HDTV, there ARE advantages.

On material intended for viewing on a standard NTSC TV, there aren't.

To take a Macross example:

I'd buy an HD copy of DYRL. And I'd laugh maniacally at anyone buying an HD copy of SDF.

[sketchley]

In a way, Innocence is much, much better than 2nd Gig - it shows growth, and development of the characters that isn't really evident in any Gits production save for the original manga's developments of the Motoko character.

I also look at the film as, gasp, not a Shirow production, but an Oshii production.

But yes, good points on movies being made for the big screen. I was seriously blown away when I saw Star Wars Eps. 2 on an IMAX screen. The level of detail in the CG backgrounds of some of the scenes actually increased exponentially (of course, being able to see all of the pock marks, zits, and imperfections on the faces of the actors was a bit of a turn-off.)

IMHO, Blue-Ray looks to be the better format. People want more, and Blue-Ray offers more disc space, than HD-DVD, for all of the extras and freebies that people want along with their ultra-high resolution movies. So yeah, they coulda done a lot worse than having Innocence as one of the first Blue-Ray anime releases. On the other hand, how many other anime would actually have improved visuals on a Blue-Ray than on a DVD? Not many...

It'll be interesting to see if Steam Boy gets released on Blue Ray or the other format...

Edited December 23, 2006 by sketchley

[Duke Togo]

I always wanted to own a movie on Betamax!

[sketchley]

What do you mean "yuck"? It's the greatest movie of all time, and I haven't even SEEN it yet!

I suggest two things: be careful about making statements about things you haven't scene or experienced yet (it may come back to bite you on the a$$), and hurry up and go see the movie!!!

Frankly, I was blown away by the level of detail and richness put into some of the scenes - scenes that are not necessarily the type made to show up in sound bites and preview clips, if you know what I mean. I also recommend going in with zero expectations. If you go in expecting a clone of the first GiTS movie, you'll probably be disappointed. If you go in expecting SAC, you'd probably be disappointed too. If you go in expecting a character study, and Batou going through a kind of catharsis, that's occasionally punctuated by intense violence, you probably won't be disappointed.

[sketchley]

I always wanted to own a movie on Betamax!

Betamax was definitely better than VHS. However, Sony's stranglehold on it, killed the format... which makes me a bit concerned about the future of Blue Ray... has Sony learned their lesson?

[chrono]

Actually, GITS2 was rendered to be printed out to film and projected on movie screens. You know, those bigass 50-foot things?

Believe me, it was rendered with shitloads more detail than a DVD can display.

I highly doubt that they rendered that movie at 2-4k sizes that the SW prequels were nor IMAX films are. Those are true HD, GITS2 sure as hell would not be because of the cost involved due to render times being doubled to quadrupled in length.

Whether HD is worth anything for anime depends greatly on the source.

Completely agreed. Thus NO current nor anime in the next several years needs to be on HD levels because the prices would increase by no less then 45-60 percent. The amount of Extras will not increase either.

On material intended for viewing in theather on a digitally made film or on an HDTV, there ARE advantages.

The only ones. DYRL won't been any better because it wasn't digital filmed it'll probably be upsampled but the quality will be the same.

This has all been hashed over dozens of times before on nearly every anime board out there.

[JB0]

I highly doubt that they rendered that movie at 2-4k sizes that the SW prequels were nor IMAX films are. Those are true HD, GITS2 sure as hell would not be because of the cost involved due to render times being doubled to quadrupled in length.

So why didn't they just represent everyone as stick figures? It would've been faster.

The point to using a higher resolution for a theatrical release is that people can easily see every pixel if you render it in SD. Or film grain if you render it the old-fashioned way with ink and a camera.

Not "Hey, we can see sweat glands now!11"

BTW, the original Star Wars movies were "true HD" also. In fact, pertty much every movie released in the last 40 years has been.

You might have a point with render times if A. you weren' pulling numbers out of your rectum(you're actually low, in this case), and B. this was a TV series on a tight schedule and not a movie. But we'll get to why you actually don't in just a minute.

Completely agreed. Thus NO current nor anime in the next several years needs to be on HD levels because the prices would increase by no less then 45-60 percent.

You're completely disagreeing with me, and claiming it as an agreement?

And then pulling numbers out of your rectum to justify your stance?

BTW, recent high-profile release...

Haruhi was rendered in HD, and broadcast as such "where available."

Yes, there is a significant difference between the HD and SD versions.

No, the render times and added hardware costs for an HD release are not significant enough to deter even a weekly TV program from doing it.

As far as (relatively) older animation releases...

Disney's Fantasia 2000 was an IMAX movie. There was a significant amount of lost detail on the DVD release.

It actually benefited Sorceror's Apprentice greatly. The original 1940 version was simply enlarged to fill the IMAX frame, and suffered from severe film grain issues in the theatrical presentation as a result. The grain isn't visible in the DVD release.

Everything else suffers from the greatly reduced resolution, and this is one that I'm really looking forward to seeing come out in HD. (Not the issue at hand, but Fantasia 2k should also benefit from the improved audio of either HD disk format).

Computers have come a long way from 1984's Last Starfighter, where the level of detail had to be dropped drastically to get the movie out at anything resembling on-time without introducing the "jaggies" that would've resulted from a lower-resolution render projected onto a theater screen(though the modern DVD release would've benefited from a reduced resolution at the same level of detail, since the DVD is so much lower-res).

Reasonably detailed scenes can now be rendered in REAL-TIME at HD resolutions. Ask the PC gaming community if you don't believe me. Hell, ask the console gaming community, with the XBox 360 and PS3 both doing HD gaming.

And you do realize that older animation was hand-drawn, right? They're initially rendered at effectively infinite resolution, and the major restricting factor is what quality film was used. Due to the need to avoid visible film grain, theatrical releases use larger film than TV releases, resulting in more of the original detail preserved.

Most animated movies will show benefits from higher resolution for that reason alone.

DYRL won't been any better because it wasn't digital filmed it'll probably be upsampled but the quality will be the same.

You don't think they'll do a new film transfer, like they did when they moved from Laserdisk to DVD?

This has all been hashed over dozens of times before on nearly every anime board out there.

And if you're any indication, it was hashed out by people that had no clue what they were talking about.

I close with an excerpt from a GitS2 BluRay review...

"The detail that's visible throughout this, in addition to the much greater color depth, provides an amazingly superior picture to an already great looking DVD release. "

That pretty much says it all.

[eugimon]

hahaha. pwned!

[sketchley]

I close with an excerpt from a GitS2 BluRay review...

"The detail that's visible throughout this, in addition to the much greater color depth, provides an amazingly superior picture to an already great looking DVD release. "

That pretty much says it all.

Wow. You've definitely done your homework, JBO.

On that last quote - I'm definitely interested in seeing this release. I have the DVD version, and there is at least one scene (Batou, underwater, approaching the factor ship) that is overwhelmed by a red 'filter' to the point of some of the details being washed out. I'd like to see what that looks like with the 'greater colour depth' that the reviewer quoted mentions.

As for HD (or HV (High Vision) here in Japan), it is here, now. Almost every current/live TV show that I watch is in HV; that's everything from News, through to anime. The lower resolution stuff is limited to older shows, and foreign imports. Usually the worst resolution stuff is foreign (North American?) news... I'm not sure if it's because they have been taken from a satellite channel, or if it's due to the way the images were captured on film. All of this is readily visible on a small, cathode ray tube TV that isn't even designed for HV. Erm... HD.

[sketchley]

Here's a good example of the HD quality of the games now being released: http://ps3-gundam.net/

Gundam: Target in Sight for the PS3. (Click on trailer to see the goods.) It's a shame that neither of the two CMs are the most recent one on TV: "you've been waiting 27 years for this game..." LOL

Now imagine playing that game on this TV screen with little to no loss in detail!

[JB0]

Wow. You've definitely done your homework, JBO.

Thank you.

On that last quote - I'm definitely interested in seeing this release. I have the DVD version, and there is at least one scene (Batou, underwater, approaching the factor ship) that is overwhelmed by a red 'filter' to the point of some of the details being washed out. I'd like to see what that looks like with the 'greater colour depth' that the reviewer quoted mentions.

That was actually specifically mentioned in the review I saw earlier.

They said it was still a problem scene, but it wasn't as nasty as the DVD release was.

http://www.animeondvd.com/reviews2/disc_reviews/5787.php for the whole review.

Was the first review I found, actually.

[yellowlightman]

It was a very ugly movie.

More coherent than the first GitS movie, though.

[sketchley]

Thanks JBO. Interesting read, and it looks like the only additional featurette is the 'innocence across international borders' from the 2-disc Japanese release.

[Duke Togo]

Betamax was definitely better than VHS. However, Sony's stranglehold on it, killed the format... which makes me a bit concerned about the future of Blue Ray... has Sony learned their lesson?

I consider both HD and Blueray to be the new "Betamax". You can't just keep pumping out new formats because you can. DVD has yet to run out its lifespan (you could argue that its at its peak right now). Neither HD or Blueray will replace it.

[Uxi]

I consider both HD and Blueray to be the new "Betamax". You can't just keep pumping out new formats because you can. DVD has yet to run out its lifespan (you could argue that its at its peak right now). Neither HD or Blueray will replace it.

There are multiple considerations, most obviously (and prominently), High Definition. I would rather watch something more mediocre in High Def than something "good" in standard def. But getting a 60" 1080p set will do that to you. Even good SD DVD releases are obviously standard def, even when upconverted. The "pop" you get from a good HD signal makes it more than worth the trivial expenses involved for equipment I have already (being a gamer, I already had a 360 and knew the PS3 was just a matter of time). High Def is a requirement for me and while some DVD releases are good (hello Superbit, Criterion Collection, etc), they're just not good enough to wow me like I am every time I watch a quality HD release, from V for Vendetta and King Kong on HDDVD to Kingdom of Heaven & Black Hawk Down on Blu-ray.

I'm not a format partisan. I have both the HD-DVD add-on for the 360 and the PS3 and have about the same number of titles for each. The PS3's Blu-ray playback is EXCELLENT. It is the fastest loading HD-player of either format and has great utility and geek factor (bitrate meter and codec display in addition to the usual chapter/time/etc info you get when you hit the 'display' button on the remote), in addition to giving you the meat & potatoes of Hi Def.

VHS had yet to run out of it's lifespan when DVD premiered but it happened. I like accessing my disc menus and chapter searches and being able to skim the special features and reconfigure the audio and subtitles on the fly while the main title plays. You just cannot do that on normal DVD, which has throughput issues as well as capacity issues that are a severe hindrance to anyone desiring High Definition.

The secondary consideration is copy protection. As regretable as we all might think DRM is, it is an unfortunate fact of life right now. CSS was cracked from the get go and all of the major studios are hoping AACS proves more robust (and it's recertification process should . Despite AACS, some studios wanted even more (Fox & Disney primarily) and thus we have BD+ for the Blu-ray side of it.

While your 'Beta-ray' quip was amusing (if ignorant), even if Sony folded up today, Matsushita, and Pioneer and Philips and the rest would not. Nearly all of the major players in the DVD Forum except Toshiba joined the Blu-ray Disc Association for their own varied reasons. 20th Century Fox and Sony's studios are as firm as NBC Universal and are not going to be switching formats. The content change is coming whether you want it to, or not. You can adapt or you can stay behind. Just don't expect to find new DVD releases at retail this side of 2010.

Ultimately, most of the content providers would like digital distribution, but it's just not feasable for Hi Def in the short term (say the next two decades at the very least).

[JB0]

Ooooh, PS3 has a bitrate indicator? That's awesome!

Anyways...

The one thing I really don't get is this.

You can make a dual-mode HD-DVD/DVD disk.

It seems to me that that would be the best way to sell an HD format fast, at least for the HD-DVD crowd.

Start shipping everything you make as HD/DVD. Then come back a year later and say "Ya know, you own like 2 dozen HD-DVDs... isn't it time you bought the player?"

It also has an advantage for format war considerations. If BluRay wins, the consumer's investment is only partially lost, since the HD/DVDs will still work in BluRay players(albeit only at standard-def).

But almost no one does it. I think there's something like 6 HD/DVD releases.

Personally, I'm waiting for a format to come out on top before I commit.

I don't have any strong opinion either way, but HD-DVD has a slight edge due to durability. And the prettier box by far(BluRay boxes are UGLY).

And yes, it is close enough in my eyes that packaging matters.

[sketchley]

I remember reading a news article recently about one or two companies that are either developing, or have developed a multi-layer disc that not only has Blue-Ray, HD-DVD, but also DVD as well. They said the reason it's possible is because the laser not only reads at different depths, but the wavelength of the reading laser is different enough to allow it.

It'll be interesting to see how many companies (if any!) hedge their bets and go this route, releasing all-format media.

[Uxi]

Yeah, the Display button tells you audio codec (Dolby Digital, DTS, etc), the audio bitrate (1.5Mbps, etc), the Video codec (MPEG2, VC1, AVC, etc) and the Video bitrate (22Mbps). Video birate fluctuates fairly rapidly.

The problem with the combo disks (there are DVD9/HD-DVD15 discs) is that 1) they're more expensive (typically 2-5$ per) and two, noone is really using the DVD side. DVD owners don't want to pay on average of $10 more and HD-DVD owners complain about it being an unnecessary additional expense.

I had every intention of sitting out the format war for at least 2007. Then CC had that $50 off coupon and $150 bucks was just too attractive to pass up since I already had the 360. I knew it was just a matter of time of getting a PS3 and thus I have Blu-ray. The PS3 is such a good player, though, I probably won't need a standalone BD player if ever. I want a silver PS3, so if they release one, I could see getting another one and either selling the black one I have now or maybe putting it on bedroom duty (for the 1080i 34" HDTV)...

[JB0]

Yeah, the Display button tells you audio codec (Dolby Digital, DTS, etc), the audio bitrate (1.5Mbps, etc), the Video codec (MPEG2, VC1, AVC, etc) and the Video bitrate (22Mbps). Video birate fluctuates fairly rapidly.

Ooooooohhhhh...

The problem with the combo disks (there are DVD9/HD-DVD15 discs) is that 1) they're more expensive (typically 2-5$ per) and two, noone is really using the DVD side. DVD owners don't want to pay on average of $10 more and HD-DVD owners complain about it being an unnecessary additional expense.

Ah. There's always a catch.

As far as no one using the DVD side... they would if there wasn't a standalone DVD release.

No choice in the matter.

I had every intention of sitting out the format war for at least 2007. Then CC had that $50 off coupon and $150 bucks was just too attractive to pass up since I already had the 360. I knew it was just a matter of time of getting a PS3 and thus I have Blu-ray. The PS3 is such a good player, though, I probably won't need a standalone BD player if ever. I want a silver PS3, so if they release one, I could see getting another one and either selling the black one I have now or maybe putting it on bedroom duty (for the 1080i 34" HDTV)...

Makes sense.

I haven't gotten any of the incoming generation yet.

And my PC isn't really up to HD, so getting one that way(the 360 HD drive works, and it's reasonably priced) isn't an option.

[eugimon]

Ooooh, PS3 has a bitrate indicator? That's awesome!

Anyways...

The one thing I really don't get is this.

You can make a dual-mode HD-DVD/DVD disk.

It seems to me that that would be the best way to sell an HD format fast, at least for the HD-DVD crowd.

Start shipping everything you make as HD/DVD. Then come back a year later and say "Ya know, you own like 2 dozen HD-DVDs... isn't it time you bought the player?"

It also has an advantage for format war considerations. If BluRay wins, the consumer's investment is only partially lost, since the HD/DVDs will still work in BluRay players(albeit only at standard-def).

But almost no one does it. I think there's something like 6 HD/DVD releases.

Personally, I'm waiting for a format to come out on top before I commit.

I don't have any strong opinion either way, but HD-DVD has a slight edge due to durability. And the prettier box by far(BluRay boxes are UGLY).

And yes, it is close enough in my eyes that packaging matters.

kinda related to your question on DVD/HD-DVD discs...

companies have a DSP that reads both blue ray and HD-DVD, apparantly the hold up is on an optical lens that can do both now. So it's just a matter of time till we see dual read HD-DVD/blueray players which is good news for all, imo.

[JB0]

kinda related to your question on DVD/HD-DVD discs...

companies have a DSP that reads both blue ray and HD-DVD, apparantly the hold up is on an optical lens that can do both now. So it's just a matter of time till we see dual read HD-DVD/blueray players which is good news for all, imo.

Actually, the only real hold-up is that at least one of the groups refuses to license dual-format players.

One of the manufacturers stated this publicly.

If I had to bet, I'd say both groups are refusing to license dual-format players.

[Duke Togo]

Blueray and HD, see "Laserdisc". Wake me up in 5 years or so.

[Gaijin]

Ooooooohhhhh...

That's the first thing I said when I learned about the bit-rate indicator...haven't seen that since my first Sony DVD player in 98. AS UXI mentioned...the PS3's BD playback and response is stellar. Easily beating stand alone players on either side of the camp. Even the 360's add on is much faster than stand alone HD DVD players.

Actually, the only real hold-up is that at least one of the groups refuses to license dual-format players.

One of the manufacturers stated this publicly.

If I had to bet, I'd say both groups are refusing to license dual-format players.

Yup....neither side will budge. Toshiba is the stubborn one on this side actually...we wouldn't have HAD a format war if they actually reached the agreement with the BDA etc. You can actually blame Microsoft for convincing Toshiba to not "give in" .

Blueray and HD, see "Laserdisc". Wake me up in 5 years or so.

I used to think the same way before the formats were set in stone. Then I bought an HDTV. DVD's show their age no question. Fine for the time being, and ok on an SDTV....will not be ok for the future. Besides...you can play a DVD on any of the new players. All new purchased discs for me however are in HD.

[Gaijin]

I don't have any strong opinion either way, but HD-DVD has a slight edge due to durability. And the prettier box by far(BluRay boxes are UGLY).

And yes, it is close enough in my eyes that packaging matters.

Durability? In theory, yes it would appear HD DVD would be more durable....so far in the real world they haven't been. Even with the dangerously thin BD's and the info so close to the surface...I haven't had a single instance of a scratch including rentals(due to coatings). HD DVD....scratch city and yes like DVD...scratch and smudges equal= stutter, freezes, downed play time.

Had floaters in BD and HD DVD purchases...BD disc= no scratches, plays fine. HD DVD = surface scratches....skips and stutters. The coating (and not even Durabis at that) they've been using is really quite good. Time will tell if it lasts but so far Blu-ray discs seem to be able to take more punishment than HD DVD ones. I can attest to that personally.

Now if only the stand alone players were cheaper and as quick as my PS3.

[JB0]

Durability? In theory, yes it would appear HD DVD would be more durable....so far in the real world they haven't been. Even with the dangerously thin BD's and the info so close to the surface...I haven't had a single instance of a scratch including rentals(due to coatings). HD DVD....scratch city and yes like DVD...scratch and smudges equal= stutter, freezes, downed play time.

Had floaters in BD and HD DVD purchases...BD disc= no scratches, plays fine. HD DVD = surface scratches....skips and stutters. The coating (and not even Durabis at that) they've been using is really quite good. Time will tell if it lasts but so far Blu-ray discs seem to be able to take more punishment than HD DVD ones. I can attest to that personally.

Now if only the stand alone players were cheaper and as quick as my PS3.

Ah yeah, forgot about the hard coatings...

Pity they haven't rolled them onto other disks too.

Be neat to have indestructible CDs, DVDs, etc.

[Gaijin]

Ah yeah, forgot about the hard coatings...

Pity they haven't rolled them onto other disks too.

Be neat to have indestructible CDs, DVDs, etc.

Yeah, I'd like DVD's to have them. Then rented movies might actually play after a dozen or so people rent them...I always wondered what the hell people do to make the discs so scratched up...frisbee them to each other at the beach?

[JB0]

Yeah, I'd like DVD's to have them. Then rented movies might actually play after a dozen or so people rent them...I always wondered what the hell people do to make the discs so scratched up...frisbee them to each other at the beach?

I figured kids set them on the floor, then stand on them and spin. Something like that.