Macross Plus 2: AI war?

[grebo guru]

So I've been rewatching Macross Plus; been countin' missiles. While doing so, something occurred to me.

One of the themes in Macross Plus is the ascendancy of AI. Between the Ghost program superceding the Supernova project, and Sharon Apple becoming as powerful and as "alive" as she did, it seems like it's only a matter of time until the Macross world reaches a kind of AI crisis. With machines replacing fighter pilots and pop singers alike, it's rather easy to imagine humanity and AI facing off against each other.

We've certainly seen this kind of storyline before, like in The Matrix and I, Robot and Terminator and in the backstory of Space Above And Beyond, not to mention in Rhea Gallforce and many, many other sci-fi yarns. The tough part is, I guess, finding a way to write the story so that the machines don't totally kick humanity's collective butt. That's usually how it shakes out.

Now before youse all start clamoring about how both the Ghost and Sharon Apple were failures in Macross Plus... I know, I know. The Ghost and Sharon Apple were both failures in Macross Plus. Yes. But the incredible potential they showed makes it highly unlikely that any efforts to refine such technologies would abandoned. Guld and the YF-21 may have beaten the X-9, but he died in the process; the Ghost clearly demonstrated it was a match for, if not downright superior to, typical forces. And Sharon Apple went loony, yeah, but she had incredible powers: hypnotism, supreme computer hacking, and of course selling records and filling stadiums.

I can't imagine that further attempts to refine and improve AI technology would NOT take place after Macross Plus -- and, as sci-fi and horror movies have taught us, the creations almost always turn against their creator at some point.

Thoughts?

[eugimon]

I really really hope they don't go down this road. From Dune to Terminator, this rise of the machine thing has really been played out. I say they just put the three laws of robotics into every AI and be done with it.

[Roy Focker]

Hey Macross + Arnold = Good Movie.

[Dante74]

Hey Macross + Arnold = Good Movie.

Agent One? Is that you?

How did you get Roy's password? Get out of here, shooo!

Edited November 25, 2006 by Dante74

[Mr March]

It's so much speculation to even suggest where the AI technology of Macross Plus could lead, if it would lead anywhere at all. Like I stated in another thread that touched on this issue, it's likely that in the Macross universe, the fundamental problems of artificial intelligence are never solved. Hence the technology remains and forever will be a unstable, non-functioning technology.

It's also a big leap to even suggest that either Sharon Apple or the Ghost X-9 fighter were even self-aware, conscious beings at all. The bio-neural chip was dangerous because it created a self-preservation behaviour that lead to pathelogical paranoia and violent self-defense against any other creature, regardless of intent. This is hardly proof of a truely self-aware consciousness.

Sharon Apple beleived she was alive and self aware, but was she really? Marj beleived the bio-neural chip lead to true AI as well, but does it? Considering the mental states of these two, the actual abilities of the bio-neural chip as even creating anything approaching true conscious is seriously in doubt.

As for the Ghost X-9 and its abilities, machines can surpass the capability of humans right now; it doesn't mean they're alive. The computer you're using right now to type on this message board exceeds human ability in many areas. Deep Blue defeated Kasparov in 1997, but the thing is as self aware as a stump.

Then we can go into real-life AI and do comparisons. It's actually possible right now for sophisticated programs to simulate the various aspects of intelligence so well, it takes repeated familiarity from any human user before they can start to see patterns in the software. As time goes on, this will only improve until it may be days or even longer before a human can tell that the AI is just a simulation.

Granted, this is all just a lot of healthy speculation, however cynical. But when I look at Macross Plus with a critical eye, we don't actually get very much information about AI in the Macross universe at all. What there is suggests nothing as profound as a truely self-aware artificial consciousness. Sharon Apple, for all her self-proclaimed notions of individuality, may not have been self aware.

But then, these discussions always make me laugh at humans in general. Ultimately, how are human beings to know for certain whether we are truely self-aware or not? What happens if one day we unravel the blueprint of our mind, like we are currently doing with DNA? When we do, we might learn all the answers about how we think...and some of those answers might not be so nice

If you were able to realize that you're just a puppet, a biological machine ultimately ruled by a set pattern...would you really want to know?

*cues Twilight Zone music*

Edited November 26, 2006 by Mr March

[sketchley]

Personally, AI vs. the human condition is better served in a Ghost in the Shell type environment, where the lines between humans and machines are blurred.

I love how a lot of people deem the Ghost X-9 a failure. I wonder why they feel that way. Is it because the AI Sharon Apple took control of the SDF-1's main computer, and used that to take control of the Ghost X-9? If so, then the failure isn't with the Ghost X-9 itself, but in it's abilities to not be taken over and controlled by the people who it was designed to be controlled by. Wait, wasn't that done deliberately?

Rhetorical questions aside, the Ghost X-9 was not only a success, it has been mass produced, and employed successfully. Just look how many of them crop up in VF-X2. Sure, they're controlled by the enemy terrorists. But keep in mind that the enemy terrorists were UNS military officers doing some type of coup - again, the Ghost X-9 being controlled by the people it was designed to be controlled by.

The last peice of evidence on AI controlled fighters in Macross is the 'other' Ghost fighters. There are the QF-2001 Ghost, and the QF-3000E Ghost unmanned fighters (Macross 0, and SDF:M.) They served without going haywire. Why wouldn't the UNS revert to the succesful control computers used in them when mass producing and employing the Ghost X-9?

EDIT: spelling. Coup isn't a coupe.

Edited November 26, 2006 by sketchley

[The6ftTallAZN]

I really really hope they don't go down this road. From Dune to Terminator, this rise of the machine thing has really been played out. I say they just put the three laws of robotics into every AI and be done with it.

What are the three laws of robotics?

[Mr March]

What are the three laws of robotics?

Someone hasn't been reading their sci-fi classics like they should. Created by writer Isaac Asimov:

1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.

2. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.

3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law.

[sketchley]

Not reading, and not doing a google search: http://www.google.ca/search?hl=ja&q=th...aws+of+robotics

Searches are not hard people.

[JB0]

As for the Ghost X-9 and its abilities, machines can surpass the capability of humans right now; it doesn't mean they're alive. The computer you're using right now to type on this message board exceeds human ability in many areas. Deep Blue defeated Kasparov in 1997, but the thing is as self aware as a stump.

There's some indications that Deep Blue likely would've lost a fair contest.

First, Kasparov went in blind.

Deep Blue had every available game Kasparov had ever played programmed into it, Kasparov had not one game log. Deep Blue had no public games other than the dozen Kasparov games, and IBM refused to supply any private match data when it was requested.

Second, IBM was altering the AI between games(and the entire computer, both software and hardware, was overhauled between the first and second series). So Kasparov wasn't playing against the "same" opponent in each game. This could be argued as a sub-point of the first one(not only did he go in blind at the beginning of the first series, but also in every game afterwards).

Conspiracy theory time! Deep Blue might not've been the only player.

No one but IBM saw the move suggestions, and there were a few moves made during the series that a computer wasn't supposed to be capable of coming up with at the time. Requests for logs to prove they were moves suggested by Deep Blue were refused at the time, which is really the only reason I give this argument any credibility.

Not to say that Deep Blue wasn't an impressive piece of hardware, but it was hardly a level playing field.

As far as Macross goes...

The AI won't take over, despite the massive gains(if nothing else, removing the "cream filling" and necessary support gear increases physical maneuverability because you have a lighter vehicle that no longer needs to not kill the pilot). Solely because no one wants to write a story about AI drones fighting wars and the computer nerds that tune them.

That was actually the point of Plus. People are better. Even if machines are better, people are still better.

[Mr March]

There's some indications that Deep Blue likely would've lost a fair contest.

Just an example, no need to go into the details that are not really all that relevant.

Human machine wars have been overdone in fiction, but I also wouldn't mind seeing such a conflict written with some more realism involved. For one, the machines rarely, if ever, use biological weapons. This would seem like an obvious method of attack for a non-organic race bent on human extinction. Granted, some fiction does make passing mention to it (Grevious' plague planets in Star Wars, the Animatrix, etc) or finds a way around it (Terminator has the machines using humans to work factories, hence you can't kill em all off if you need em to work). But I've yet to see a story that does biological weapons with abandon.

Also, one thing a lot of man-verus-machine fiction doesn't take into account is resources necessary for a robot race. Humans are relatively cheap creatures. At their most basic level, humans require very little to keep them going for long periods of time and maintenance is almost a non-factor. Food is about the only requirement and that's cheap and easy to find. Robots on the other hand, oh sure you can churn them out fast and build them all to suit, but they'd be horribly expensive and most importantly, resource intensive. You could train, feed, and arm a thousand human soldiers on the same amount of resources it would take to design, build, and maintain just a few self-aware, combat-capable robots. And each robot would require more power and maintenance than all the military materiel in an entire human army, then the robots need to power and maintain their war machines on top of that. It would be terribly inefficient. I suppose limitless power sources and resources solves some of these problems (like the Star Wars case), but a lot of fiction doesn't have that. And the Matrix explanation of using humans for power is ridiculous. Humans are energy consumers, not producers (though the writers try to side-step the issue with the "form-of-fusion" quote).

[SpacyAce2012]

I wouldn't completely write-off the possiblilty of ultra-advanced AI in the Macross universe. AI has that "cool" factor that appeals to many sci-fi fans. And it makes for interesting stories.

In the world of Macross, AI took a great leap ahead with the fall of ASS-1. I'm guessing that the ship's main computer was a form of "passive" AI, built with Protoculture-level tech, by the Supervision Army. Which means it was centuries ahead of the most sophisticated (experimental) results achieved by Earth up to that point. And it would stand to reason that a great deal was learned while tinkering with this system to get it operational again.

Then there is the systems aboard Zentreadi warships and the Automated Factories. While the giants weren't completely ignorant when it came to technical issues (the efforts of the three agents, aboard the Macross, to prep their modded Regult is proof of that), much of the more complicated stuff was seemingly beyond them. They were basically grunt troopies, after all. It would, once again, stand to reason that some form of highly sophisticated "passive" AI system ran the tech side of things.

With the acquisition of this much alien tech, aided by limited Zentreadi imput and theories developed during pre-Fall Human research in that area, it would only be a matter of time and effort before a "super" AI would be developed.

Sharon Apple was the result (although a seriously flawed end product) of that. As was the dangerous (and presumably flawed) bio-neural chip. The problem, I gathered from Macross Plus, was that Marge wanted to (and did) jump the gun, so to speak. Neither system was fully developed and it seemed that far more research was needed before that next big step could be taken.

I don't believe that the Ghost X-9 was a complete failure from an "in-universe" standpoint. It was simply a logical evolution of the "passive" systems that were used in the previous Ghost combat drones. It was the experiments with the bio-neural chips, in those nasty mechanical beasts, that was the failure. It was too much, too soon.

I am of the opinion, however, that AI will not become an overwhelming factor in future Macross additions. One of the centerpieces of the genre, is the VFs and their heroic pilots. And the appeal of "Mecha Anime" is the robot vehicle, operated by a hero/heroine. To take away that, would turn Macross into another generic robot themed science fiction saga.

But it wouldn't hurt too much as window dressing.

Just my thoughts (and ramblings) on the matter.

Edited November 26, 2006 by SpacyAce2012

[JB0]

I wouldn't completely write-off the possiblilty of ultra-advanced AI in the Macross universe. AI has that "cool" factor that appeals to many sci-fi fans. And it makes for interesting stories.

In the world of Macross, AI took a great leap ahead with the fall of ASS-1. I'm guessing that the ship's main computer was a form of "passive" AI, built with Protoculture-level tech, by the Supervision Army. Which means it was centuries ahead of the most sophisticated (experimental) results achieved by Earth up to that point. And it would stand to reason that a great deal was learned while tinkering with this system to get it operational again.

But the REAL question is do auto-focus cameras in the future reliably identify the correct subject?

Seriously, it does stand to reason. More advanced technology = more powerful computers = more advanced AI routines that can be run at a reasonable speed.

I don't believe that the Ghost X-9 was a complete failure from an "in-universe" standpoint. It was simply a logical evolution of the "passive" systems that were used in the previous Ghost combat drones. It was the experiments with the bio-neural chips, in those nasty mechanical beasts, that was the failure. It was too much, too soon.

If nothing else, the X9 proved the promises of superior speed and maneuverability were accurate.

I doubt the neural chip issue really factored into things much in that case, honestly. The Ghost was probably just following orders issued by Sharon.

But it's possible the chase with Guld that led to it's destruction(in the movie) was a result of that annoying self-preservation instinct. If it'd blasted Guld as he came in instead of running from the kamikaze strike...

...

Of course, Sharon may've ordered it to harass, but not destroy, the 2 VF prototypes.

She knew exactly who the pilots were, and since she "inherited" Myung's feelings... we KNOW she wanted Isamu for herself, and it's possible she had something similar in mind for Guld.

If those were the orders the X9 was given, it performed magnificently.

[azrael]

I don't see another AI-based story in Macross because it's already been done in M+. And I agree that a story like this might be better in Ghost in the Shell.

[Zinjo]

Well one has to consider that in the Macross Universe, even the Protoculture did not create an autonomous AI.

The AFOS is a perfect example of a bio-engineered ship with limited AI that ulitmately required a "pilot".

To allow for maximum pilot protection from g-forces and other dangerous effects of the craft's apparent manueverability, the pilot was surounded by a buffer liquid (that possibly filled the lungs of the occupant as well) that probably adjusted it's pressure in accordance to the pressure exerted on the pilot.

It is a possibility that actual AI was never truly realized, even by the Protoculture themselves.

The biggest failure or risk the Ghost demonstrated was that it was vulnerable to "hacking" and that it could ultimately be hijacked remotely, unlike a piloted aircraft.

[SpacyAce2012]

Well one has to consider that in the Macross Universe, even the Protoculture did not create an autonomous AI.

The AFOS is a perfect example of a bio-engineered ship with limited AI that ulitmately required a "pilot".

To allow for maximum pilot protection from g-forces and other dangerous effects of the craft's apparent manueverability, the pilot was surounded by a buffer liquid (that possibly filled the lungs of the occupant as well) that probably adjusted it's pressure in accordance to the pressure exerted on the pilot.

It is a possibility that actual AI was never truly realized, even by the Protoculture themselves.

The biggest failure or risk the Ghost demonstrated was that it was vulnerable to "hacking" and that it could ultimately be hijacked remotely, unlike a piloted aircraft.

I speculate that Protoculture "passive" AIs on automated facilities did operate autonomously to a degree. They would have to in order to do the jobs that they did.

However, I agree that such systems weren't developed to the level that the bio-neural AIs were in Macross Plus. And I would guess that some degree of Zentreadi intervention was required in various operations. And evidence (although flimsy) suggest that the automated factories had a complement of Zentreadi personnel stationed on them.

I agree with your analysis on the AFOS. It makes more sense than the idea that it was some magical/occult BS. Or that it was something that had nothing to do with the ancient Stellar Republic, which would contradict the still-official canon timeline.

[JB0]

The biggest failure or risk the Ghost demonstrated was that it was vulnerable to "hacking" and that it could ultimately be hijacked remotely, unlike a piloted aircraft.

To be fair, Sharon hacked the entire UN defense force, including the people. She had soldiers running around blasting machine guns at Myung, so she'd probably hijacked the pilots for those conventional piloted aircraft(though whether the brainwashed pilots were coordinated enough to fly is another story...).

It's not like she just stole the Ghost. She already had control of everything and everyone around it, from the top admirals and central computer to the guy waxing the armor and probably the Pepsi-bot pushing drinks on unsuspecting visitors.

If anything, it's a point about the dangers of excessive networking

She gained access to ONE machine inside the Macross and took over everything, from the Macross' anti-aircraft guns up to the defense satellite network. Not just the military systems, either, given the video billboards and hologram projectors she was using.

For a few hours, she owned everything in the world except an annoying pair of prototype VFs, the 3 people riding them, and Myung. And for a few seconds, she owned everything but the YF-21, Guld, and and Myung.

That's a LOT of damage for one computer.

It's also appalling computer security... The UN should NEVER have brought a strange computer inside their central command facility and hooked it in like that. It's even more absurd than holding a Quake tournament in the Pentagon. You wanna hold a concert, that's great... go outside and hook your computer up in the concert hall like everyone else does.

[Valkyrie addict]

good post, if you think about, what you're implying is much like the Macross 7 plot, since the protodevlin had brainwashed personel from the macross 13 (was it the 13?), and having vf's vs vf's space battle and whatever

a bit off topic, what I found most shocking and intriguing in Macross plus, is how easy Isamu avoided Earth advance space defence weapon platform

that was just silly

Edited November 27, 2006 by Valkyrie addict

[JB0]

good post, if you think about, what you're implying is much like the Macross 7 plot, since the protodevlin had brainwashed personel from the macross 13 (was it the 13?), and having vf's vs vf's space battle and whatever

Interesting.

I hadn't made that connection, but now that you mention it...

It was the Macross 5 in Macross 7, though.

Macross 13 gets smashed in VF-X2.

a bit off topic, what I found most shocking and intriguing in Macross plus, is how easy Isamu avoided Earth advance space defence weapon platform

that was just silly

Well, the network was probably weighted more towards larger objects like ships. Raw power over precision.

And using debris to hide yourself like that isn't an unworkable solution, especially when you're talking about a planet that had over a million capital ships destroyed around it. Sure it's 30 years later, but there should still be a LOT of crap in Earth orbit.

...

Actually, the defensive network might have originally been sold as a way to prevent major impacts. There was a lot of large debris in orbit and no easy way to get rid of it. So put a bunch of cannons in a low orbit taking potshots at anything big enough to survive re-entry or intersecting an orbit you want protected. Anti-attacker capacity would be a bonus short-term, though far more important in the long run.

[Keith]

For the record, it was the Megaroad-13 fleet, the Varuta expedition that came looking for the Megaroad-13, and the Macross 5 fleet.

[sketchley]

The penetration plan was sound - how many asteroids turn to meteors and crash to Earth? Would the defense network be so supertuned that it would detect small, natural bodies in space and shoot them down?

I have no problems with that scene, as it makes a fair bit of sense. They knew they were coming, they hid in debris, and as long as they remained unmoving, they would be thought of as only another piece of debris.

To be honest, the disappointment of that scene was the lack of activity from the ships, and VFs in orbit. Sure, the YF-19 could fly loops around them (as shown in Macross 7,) but there wasn't even a hint of activity amongst the ships. Disappointed.

[eugimon]

The penetration plan was sound - how many asteroids turn to meteors and crash to Earth? Would the defense network be so supertuned that it would detect small, natural bodies in space and shoot them down?

I have no problems with that scene, as it makes a fair bit of sense. They knew they were coming, they hid in debris, and as long as they remained unmoving, they would be thought of as only another piece of debris.

To be honest, the disappointment of that scene was the lack of activity from the ships, and VFs in orbit. Sure, the YF-19 could fly loops around them (as shown in Macross 7,) but there wasn't even a hint of activity amongst the ships. Disappointed.

I thought the fleet was already taken over by sharon apple by the time the Yf-19 showed up?

[Lightning]

The penetration plan was sound - how many asteroids turn to meteors and crash to Earth? Would the defense network be so supertuned that it would detect small, natural bodies in space and shoot them down?

I have no problems with that scene, as it makes a fair bit of sense. They knew they were coming, they hid in debris, and as long as they remained unmoving, they would be thought of as only another piece of debris.

To be honest, the disappointment of that scene was the lack of activity from the ships, and VFs in orbit. Sure, the YF-19 could fly loops around them (as shown in Macross 7,) but there wasn't even a hint of activity amongst the ships. Disappointed.

Well, if you remember from the OAV/Movie, both Valks were designed to go into the "Special Forces" role (get in there stealth-ily, drop whatever weapons you've got, and GTH out), then to transition to the frontline "everybody gets one" role. The -19 and the -21 showed that they were really able to do it, despite the crazy pilots that were onboard.

also, from the OAV/Movie, they got picked up as soon as they came out of Fold, but with them having an "allied" signature, it probably didn't think anything of it until they blasted the satellite structures for cover. It was then that they started getting fired upon.