Respect the Macross Cannon

[grebo guru]

I get a real kick outta Macross II's overkill-tastic Macross Cannon. So I scanned its picture and dolled it up.

[sketchley]

You know, this has reminded me of why I dislike Macross II so much: the uber able-to-kill-em-all-without-fear-of-harm-as-the-enemy-cannot-penetrate-the-armour mecha in it. At least in Macross Plus, the other Macross with uber mecha, it was uber mecha vs. uber mecha with semi-developed characters, so there was some concern about the outcome of the battle.

Anyhow, ranting and raving aside, wouldn't the individual panels and seam lines on 6 Km long ship be smaller? Also, they don't line up with the angles of the ship (ex: underside of the cannon arms) so it gives the ship a distorted perspective look. I suggest applying a layer of 50% or 75% black shadow over those spots to, at the very least, give the thing a more 3D look. You may want to add some additional elements - such as other capital ships - in the foreground, to give some kind of sense of scale (which was a problem in the animation - no sense of scale aside from the bridge, which given the size of the bridge in the SDF-1, would make the Macross cannon only slightly larger than the SDF-1, and not 6 Km!)

[grebo guru]

Well, the Macross Cannons in the animation weren't all that "able-to-kill-em-all-without-fear-of-harm-as-the-enemy-cannot-penetrate-the-armour" -- in fact, they got wiped out pretty handily. In fact, the only mecha in Macross II which I remember as being "ATKTAWFOHATECPTA" was the Metal Siren; that thing was sixteen drifferent kinds of lame, no doubt, but I wouldn't call it the embodiment of all Macross II.

Anyway:

The panels were a qucik-n'-dirty technique, it's true. For a first draft, I'm pretty happy with it, though. I'll fine-tune it this weekend or something.

And as for the size of the panels, I figured that something was better than nothing... the thing needed some kind of surface texture, some kind of increased level of detail and complexity.

And yeah, shading is another thing I have yet to do. Plus I might toss in some other ships as well, yeah, though I'm undecided which ones (it would be a laugh to toss in the Macross itself, though).

You know, this has reminded me of why I dislike Macross II so much: the uber able-to-kill-em-all-without-fear-of-harm-as-the-enemy-cannot-penetrate-the-armour mecha in it. At least in Macross Plus, the other Macross with uber mecha, it was uber mecha vs. uber mecha with semi-developed characters, so there was some concern about the outcome of the battle.

Anyhow, ranting and raving aside, wouldn't the individual panels and seam lines on 6 Km long ship be smaller? Also, they don't line up with the angles of the ship (ex: underside of the cannon arms) so it gives the ship a distorted perspective look. I suggest applying a layer of 50% or 75% black shadow over those spots to, at the very least, give the thing a more 3D look. You may want to add some additional elements - such as other capital ships - in the foreground, to give some kind of sense of scale (which was a problem in the animation - no sense of scale aside from the bridge, which given the size of the bridge in the SDF-1, would make the Macross cannon only slightly larger than the SDF-1, and not 6 Km!)

[sketchley]

I was mostly refering to the VF-2S (with their automated attack bits) and the Metal Siren with the alphabet soup.

[Mr March]

The panelling colors may need refinement, but I think the size is perfect. It looks good, only the orientation needs correction. I like it!

[Zinjo]

I was mostly refering to the VF-2S (with their automated attack bits) and the Metal Siren with the alphabet soup.

Unfortunately the AAB's for the VF-SS SAP system were barely even shown and many a Valkyrie II found an untimely end during the battles.

As Grebo said the MS was the only uber fighter in the show and I too found it too lame (with the exception of the Pinpoint Barrier Lance concept).

As for the other ships, you could use this scan and pluck whatever ships you like out.... They are fairly detailed and look pretty good blured out in the background.

http://members.shaw.ca/zinjo3/Index/Pics/F...road_escort.jpg

[grebo guru]

Thanks for the pic, Zinjo.

As for the Valkyrie II's remote weapons, I am/was under the impression that they were technically called "Squires" -- isn't "Automated Attacks Bits" a term used only in the Palladium RPG?

Greeeeebles

[HWR MKII]

That isnt as much a macross cannon replacement as it is 4 zentradi command ships strapped to a central hull. its one of the things i didnt like about M2

[Penguin]

I like it, Grebo. The colouring reminds me more of the "aztec" mottling on the NCC-1701A Enterprise than panel lines, which is kinda cool.

[CdnShockwave]

Two words: I like.

[grebo guru]

Thanks for the comments and compliments, guys! :-) Me happy.

That isnt as much a macross cannon replacement as it is 4 zentradi command ships strapped to a central hull. its one of the things i didnt like about M2

Why is the Macross Cannons' use of repurposed Zentradi resources a reason to dislike Macross II? It makes perfect sense.

Consider:

During Space War 1 the majority (like 99%) of the human population was eradicated. However, humanity made friends with a huge fleet of alien dudes who happen to be genetically compatible with us. To rebuild the population, we interbred with them and made use of their cloning technology. An expedient, and frankly necessary, choice of action.

Meanwhile, along with all the people, just about all of Earth's cities, factories, labs, engineering facilities, mines, and industrial resources were destroyed. However, humanity made friends with a huge fleet of alien dudes who happen to have like a gazillion spaceships and other machinery. To rebuild the military and industry, it would be expedient (and necessary) to make use of all that raw material.

I really liked this aspect of Macross II. Not only did the Macross Cannons make use of Zentradi ships, but heck, much of Macross city itself was made up of a transit-network-linked assortment of grounded Zentradi ships.

Fact is, without the Zentradi, the reconstruction of human civilization would have taken a LOT longer.

Grebo!

Edited November 23, 2006 by grebo guru

[Hikuro]

Well I remember the movie the Macross was suppose to of been based on a Meltrandie cruiser that crashed on Earth, not something from Protoculture race...and it looks like DYRL is more of an official continioum then the TV show with how they air the Macross in general.

Course when I saw the Macross use it's cannons I was a bit surprised to see that it had a "Redesigned" attack mode.....

But was more surprised when ever I saw these puppies get the crap kicked out of them by a handful of pods.

lol But man it really is just 4 Zentradie cruisers connected to a body which is funny to see.

Still you do interesting work even if alot of it is Macross II which doesn't get much love here on MW.

[Zinjo]

Thanks for the pic, Zinjo.

As for the Valkyrie II's remote weapons, I am/was under the impression that they were technically called "Squires" -- isn't "Automated Attacks Bits" a term used only in the Palladium RPG?

Greeeeebles

No prob...

And no, the AAB are the canon names for them, they are listed that way in the "This is Animation" book.

I always imagined them to have AI control with the sophistication of a trained dog. They were capable of independant self defense and attack, but totally under the command of the pilot, unlike the X-9 Ghost. However, not being able to read Japanese, I don't know what their control was, if it was ever mentioned.

[Zinjo]

Thanks for the pic, Zinjo.

As for the Valkyrie II's remote weapons, I am/was under the impression that they were technically called "Squires" -- isn't "Automated Attacks Bits" a term used only in the Palladium RPG?

Greeeeebles

No prob...

And no, the AAB are the canon names for them, they are listed that way in the "This is Animation" book.

I always imagined them to have AI control with the sophistication of a trained dog. They were capable of independant self defense and attack, but totally under the command of the pilot, unlike the X-9 Ghost.

However, not being able to read Japanese, I don't know what their control was, if it was ever mentioned.

[grebo guru]

No prob...

And no, the AAB are the canon names for them, they are listed that way in the "This is Animation" book.

Hmmmm. I wonder. Can you (or someone) cite an acutal page number for me? Because I own the "This is Animation" book for MacII, and not only can I not find any mention of AAB and/or Automated Attack Bit, nor can I find any mention of these things at all. There's not even a picture. They are, however, illustrated on page 98 of Entertainment Bible #51, and there they are definitely called Squires.

(And while I'm not fluent in Japanese, I'm able to read enough to be pretty sure about this. Kanji is a bit beyond me, but I'm really good with katakana and hiragana.)

Oh wait, here we go. They're called "automated attack Bits" on page 70 of B-Club issue #79. Hmm. Well, there you go then. I wonder if either term is "more official".

Grebo

Edited November 24, 2006 by grebo guru

[Mr March]

This is good info. If I liked Macross II, I'd be all over this information for use in a Valkyrie profile

[Zinjo]

Hmmmm. I wonder. Can you (or someone) cite an acutal page number for me? Because I own the "This is Animation" book for MacII, and not only can I not find any mention of AAB and/or Automated Attack Bit, nor can I find any mention of these things at all. There's not even a picture. They are, however, illustrated on page 98 of Entertainment Bible #51, and there they are definitely called Squires.

(And while I'm not fluent in Japanese, I'm able to read enough to be pretty sure about this. Kanji is a bit beyond me, but I'm really good with katakana and hiragana.)

Oh wait, here we go. They're called "automated attack Bits" on page 70 of B-Club issue #79. Hmm. Well, there you go then. I wonder if either term is "more official".

Grebo

Probably the Auto Attack Bits are their "military designation" while Squires is a "nickname", similar to how SK describes the "Star Mirage" as the nickname for the VF-5000.

"Squire" isn't an official name for the equipment, but used just the same and interchangeably with AAB.

I like the name "Hounds" or "Auto Attack Dogs" better than "Squires" but that's just my idea, not series canon.

Edited November 24, 2006 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

Well I remember the movie the Macross was suppose to of been based on a Meltrandie cruiser that crashed on Earth, not something from Protoculture race...and it looks like DYRL is more of an official continioum then the TV show with how they air the Macross in general.

Yeah all post DYRL shows tend to take their design cues for the movie than the series.

Though Mac II is based mostly on DYRL and the PC Engine games like Macross 2036, that were available at the time.

[Knight26]

Man the macross cannons were a stupid concept. Hey let's take four Zent command ships, which were what 10-15x times the size of the Macross and link them together to a giant macross looking main ship. Oh then of course make it transformable and to further confuse people as to its size give it a large Macross style bridge to boot. The whole concept is just dumb, it would be much more practical and provide better use of the resources to just have the four command ships and not the central transforming POS. Just look here to see what I am talking about with the size problems: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&id=33753

Edited November 27, 2006 by Knight26

[grebo guru]

Nope. Sorry. You're wrong. The Macross Cannon is totally cool. Doesn't matter what you say. It's impressive and creative and wicked, wicked, wuh-hicked cool.

Man the macross cannons were a stupid concept. Hey let's take four Zent command ships, which were what 10-15x times the size of the Macross and link them together to a giant macross looking main ship. Oh then of course make it transformable and to further confuse people as to its size give it a large Macross style bridge to boot. The whole concept is just dumb, it would be much more practical and provide better use of the resources to just have the four command ships and not the central transforming POS. Just look here to see what I am talking about with the size problems: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?...st&id=33753

[Knight26]

It may look cool, but when you think about it it makes no sense. Why take four highly powerful and manueverable ships, strip their engines and join them together like that? You instantly loose four ships, tie up resource to build four more (from looking at the size) make them slower and far less manueverable, loose overlapping fields of fire, loose the ability to bring on firepower from multiple angles, and make them sitting targets. Now all you have to do is take out the core ship and all four of those are lost, whereas before you would have to engage them all individually.

[wldr]

It may look cool, but when you think about it it makes no sense. Why take four highly powerful and manueverable ships, strip their engines and join them together like that? You instantly loose four ships, tie up resource to build four more (from looking at the size) make them slower and far less manueverable, loose overlapping fields of fire, loose the ability to bring on firepower from multiple angles, and make them sitting targets. Now all you have to do is take out the core ship and all four of those are lost, whereas before you would have to engage them all individually.

Very good point Knight26. Militarily speaking, putting that much non-manueverable fire power in one slow moving spot is asking for trouble.

[grebo guru]

Yes, but, you see, the thing is -- it's totally, awesomely, wickedly cool.

[wldr]

Yes, but, you see, the thing is -- it's totally, awesomely, wickedly cool.

Perhaps, but it would still be a very easy to hit target if attacked from multable directions at once.

[sketchley]

I agree with Knight26 and wldr. Having a fleet of Command ships, unloading their style of pain, would have looked far cooler - and have done a lot more damage (able to shoot in more directions.)

I think the ships should be called 'Grand Cannon Ver. 2.0', as the ships and the ground instillations have far too many similarities.

[Zinjo]

If you were to look at the Cannon, you would realize that it isn't 4 capital ships attached to a central hub, but the gun mechanisms of Zentreadi ships.

There are no aft thrusters at all and they are considerably smaller than the cruisers they look like and appear as though the aft hull behind the gun was made up solely of energizing equipment.

From a design point of view, having tandem guns locked into position on each arm doesn't work well for multiple target firing solutions and the only possible reason it should ever need to transform would be to free up the arms to fire on multiple targets. They used it in the series as a mobile grand cannon type of heavy artillery, which was a disservice to the design concept.

In terms of a mobile gun platform capable of grand cannon like destructive ability it served it's purpose, but IMO the producers were a bit short sighted with it's use.

The hybrid elements of the design are consistent with the universe of Macross II, in that Human/Zentreadi society chose to recycle existing space craft and designs to quickly rebuild after the final battle with Bodolza.

~Do I think it could have been designed better, sure, I would have put the Macross 7 type gun boats on it as the main guns and had each gunboat able to fire on somewhat different angles from one another to allow it to engage multiple targets simultaneously- Now THAT is a Grebo project I'd like to see . ~

Now the ship carried AA weaponry as well as destroids and VF squadron escorts.

Yeah it was a big target, but just like any big gun it had a lot of support ships to provide cover. However the Marduk were very adept at swarming such large ships and doing enough damage to disable them or in one case destroying them.

Although I do agree with sketchley that a better name would be "Grand Cannon II" as opposed to "Macross Cannon".

Edited November 28, 2006 by Zinjo

[wldr]

Good info Zinjo. Big massive fire power ships have allways had problems with swarm tactics, it's one of the reasons why bigger is not allways better when it comes to things like the Cannon.

[grebo guru]

~Do I think it could have been designed better, sure, I would have put the Macross 7 type gun boats on it as the main guns and had each gunboat able to fire on somewhat different angles from one another to allow it to engage multiple targets simultaneously- Now THAT is a Grebo project I'd like to see . ~

Yikes. I'll, uh... I'll get back to you on that.

[Zinjo]

Yikes. I'll, uh... I'll get back to you on that.

LOL

[sketchley]

The hybrid elements of the design are consistent with the universe of Macross II, in that Human/Zentreadi society chose to recycle existing space craft and designs to quickly rebuild after the final battle with Bodolza.

I agree that it is an interesting extrapolation. However, Macross II is neither original, nor realistic in it's extrapolation. Flashback 2012 has (recycled) Zentraedi ships as the escorts of the Megaroad; even Macross 7 has a couple of Zentraedi flagships still acting in colony fleet escort duty. Macross II fails to impress me with it's logic that after 70 years, the 'recycled' Zentraedi ships are still being used, with little apparent upgrading to the tech advancements apparent in both the VFs and the other capital ships used by the UNS. IMHO, Macross 7 portrays things better, with the switch from big, slow, unstealthy capital ships, to small, manueverable, stealth ships. A much more realistic development, given the current trends in the war machines of the real Earth.

I do agree that turning the crashed Zentraedi ships into cities on the surface of Earth is interesting, but the whole premise of Macross II ignores the end of the SDF:M and the developments in Flashback 2012 - that being the human emmigration project.

EDIT: forgot to mention the recycling of the Gluag design into a variable fighter in Macross Plus: Game Edition, and Macross M3.

Edited November 28, 2006 by sketchley

[Zinjo]

I agree that it is an interesting extrapolation. However, Macross II is neither original, nor realistic in it's extrapolation. Flashback 2012 has (recycled) Zentraedi ships as the escorts of the Megaroad; even Macross 7 has a couple of Zentraedi flagships still acting in colony fleet escort duty. Macross II fails to impress me with it's logic that after 70 years, the 'recycled' Zentraedi ships are still being used, with little apparent upgrading to the tech advancements apparent in both the VFs and the other capital ships used by the UNS. IMHO, Macross 7 portrays things better, with the switch from big, slow, unstealthy capital ships, to small, manueverable, stealth ships. A much more realistic development, given the current trends in the war machines of the real Earth.

I never said Mac II was perfect...far from it. There several issues one can make with it, particularly when compared to Mac Plus, it's immediate successor. I do agree that if anything the landed Zent ships would be over ridden with "additional" structures tacked on the superstructures, to the point of barely being recognizable as Zent warships. Mac 7 had it's big slow cap ships, but it was mostly reserved for the Battle 7 warship and the colony ships of the fleet. As you say, not so much with the military escort ships.

I do agree that turning the crashed Zentraedi ships into cities on the surface of Earth is interesting, but the whole premise of Macross II ignores the end of the SDF:M and the developments in Flashback 2012 - that being the human emmigration project.

EDIT: forgot to mention the recycling of the Gluag design into a variable fighter in Macross Plus: Game Edition, and Macross M3.

Yes it does and that is conspicuously absent from the series. They could have used it for dramatic effect or at least mentioned it in passing dialogue, but for unkown reasons chose to ignore that important element of the original story.

There are several other issues I have, but are not relevant to this thread.

[Ishimaru]

It may look cool, but when you think about it it makes no sense. Why take four highly powerful and manueverable ships, strip their engines and join them together like that? You instantly loose four ships, tie up resource to build four more (from looking at the size) make them slower and far less manueverable, loose overlapping fields of fire, loose the ability to bring on firepower from multiple angles, and make them sitting targets. Now all you have to do is take out the core ship and all four of those are lost, whereas before you would have to engage them all individually.

What you are saying is mostly irrational, those ships were torn apart for a reason. Don't you think that the ships have been worn out to a point if they were used in battle that maneuverability would be near impossible and that its firepower would be drain just about all of the ship's resources with minimal effect on the enemy?

Putting it together wasn't their best idea, but they had no choice, they needed due to the fact that it might give a winning chance and minimal loss because of the fact that they all they had to do is build the frame of the whole ship (excluding the body), which costed them little resources due to the fact that the cannons were ready, and all that it needed was a better resource. But the old cannon was probably the reason the ship was handy in resources needed to provide to the cannons, at best they could have done a dozen more shots since thats what the whole ship is devoting its resources to.

It may not make much sense but the writers of MacII thought to the best of their ability in what they can do for the design. It may not be the best , but it makes logical sense. Even if it was not part of the Mac series itself.

Very good point Knight26. Militarily speaking, putting that much non-manueverable fire power in one slow moving spot is asking for trouble.

They didn't ask for trouble when the cannon was distant, they expected to fire it from a distance hoping to take out all enemy casualties without any heavy losses but it failed. They though that a ton of firepower with the loss of maneuverability would gain easy victory without any heavy losses to men, but it never worked due to the large amount of overwhelming enemy forces. Think about it, would you rather have victory easily and not lose any men, or be desperate and try to round up all your resources evenly hoping that you can outdo the enemy.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

[briscojr84]

What!?

[eugimon]

I'll see that "What!?" and raise you "Whatcha talkin about willis?"

[briscojr84]

I'll see that "What!?" and raise you "Whatcha talkin about willis?"

I'm trying to decipher what Ishimaru is saying.