Opinion on Macross Plus

[Thai Boxer 9901]

Recently, I just watched Macross Plus on Youtube (OVA and Movie) and I gotta say that im highly impressed and addicted to it. But browsing around on the fourms here, ive noticed some mixed feelings about it and im just trying to understand why.

And just for the record: THE YF-19 RULES!

[jenius]

I gotta imagine there are some huge threads already existing on this subject. They were probably before I showed up here though. My take on things: Mac+ is very pretty but it's pretty much all filler. It doesn't do anything for Macross as a universe. It doesn't introduce characters I'd ever wonder about again. It doesn't help flush out the backstory to the universe at all. It's there and it's entertaining but the only thing that really grabs you (this was far more true when it first came out) are the visuals. Still, it does get kudos for never being outrightly annoying or having any excessively outlandish plot moments.

[azrael]

Actually there are very few threads on the matter (most M+ threads involve the difference between the movie and OAV editions, which, if anybody ask, will end this thread in a very quick lock).

M+ was all eye candy. That's pretty much it.

[grebo guru]

I think Macross Plus is wonderful, but its one major failing is that I don't think it's a very good Macross story. It lacks the "feel" of classic Macross (tv and movie) -- the "vibe" if you will. There are a lot of ways that this can be highlighted, but the clearest one is, I think, that M+ introduced the "new standard" to which Kawamori seems determined to adhere.

This "new standard" is that Macross is ALL about Variable Fighters. Good guys and bad guys. VFs against VFs, all the time. In Macross Plus there was a good reason for the VF duel (rivalry between test machines and test pilots) but "VF vs VF" was clearly not the way things were everywhere. (We see Zentran suits being taken out in the beginning.) Then came Macross 7, in which the enemy Varauta flew "alienized" VFs. And now we have Macross Zero, which posits that BEFORE the original Macross TV series, VFs were dogfighting. Hmmm... yeah, ah, no. That's where I call "bullsh*t", personally.

Anyway, like I said -- I think Macross Plus is wonderful. I am, however, bothered by the precedent it set.

Grebo!

[Zinjo]

Macross Plus is Kawamori's interpretation of "Top Gun"!

It is very action oriented and a perfect showcase for some pretty cool VF designs.

From a story point of view it is rather weak, but the action makes up for that for Western audiences.

It's weak story may be why it wasn't nearly as well received in Japan as it was here.

[Phyrox]

M+ is great if you want a short story and not an epic adventure.

I personally felt engaged in the Isamu - Guld history and animosity, so I can't agree that the story is a weak point. As short and as relatively simple as the story is though, the movie is a better take on it, with its being able to dump some of the more extraneous elements (although the fight at the beginning is sorely missing).

Like was mentioned though, it isn't very "macrossy" though. This doesn't bother me much, as if all the stories told about a particular universe had the same feel it would really limit the scope of that fictional universe.

That's just my take though. As a stand alone movie though, I can say my anime-averse girlfriend thought it was pretty good, for whatever that's worth.

[Sevket_Erhat]

Macross Plus is the best Macross in my opinion because it's got the best airplanes and no rock singing Japanese group or some bird people that I have no idea about

[justvinnie]

Macross Plus is Kawamori's interpretation of "Top Gun"!

It is very action oriented and a perfect showcase for some pretty cool VF designs.

From a story point of view it is rather weak, but the action makes up for that for Western audiences.

It's weak story may be why it wasn't nearly as well received in Japan as it was here.

It was shown in an interview that the idea for M+ (or Project Supernova as it was called) predates Top Gun by a year.

vinnie

[jenius]

It was shown in an interview that the idea for M+ (or Project Supernova as it was called) predates Top Gun by a year.

Yep, if I'm not mistaken the inspiration was actually a US competition to decide which manufacturer would make the next Navy jet (or something similar) and I believe that competition was held at Edwards in California. I'm sure one of the members knows exactly which planes were involved.

That said, SK certainly could have developed his story over many years and while the inspiration may have been an event before Top Gun he may have found some inspiration in Top Gun also. Then again, he may have no idea what Top Gun is.

[connor99]

I have always taken MACROSS PLUS as a short story of sorts (that may have direct or indirect correlation to the original SDF-1 series), and for that aspect I think it was pretty good.

[Roy Focker]

Macross Plus = Mecha Porn

Great Mecha Porn that you can watch over and over again to the exciting climax!

[Keith]

Macross Plus is the best Macross in my opinion because it's got the best airplanes and no rock singing Japanese group or some bird people that I have no idea about

Wait a minute there.

-Singing pilots? Check! You apparently forgot about the Sharon Apple controlled Ghost X9

-Bird people? Check - You also apparently forgot about Sharon's very APHOS like appearance in the Movie Eidtion during the "Wanna Be An Angel" scene. As well as the huge freaking Dino-Bird.

BOMBA!

Edited November 20, 2006 by Keith

[Fly4victory]

I would have to guess that M+ was based on the ATF "Advance Tactical Fighter" selection. http://www.ausairpower.net/TE-ATF-91.html

The real world YF-23A looks too simiar to the YF-21.

Stand alone stories are great with minor links to the universe in-which they are to exist. M+ has the SDF-1, a more modern version of the Ghost, both from Macross, and the VF-11 and VF-19 which will be seen again in M7 and the video games.

[Mr March]

It's a strong anime period and it's a very good Macross production. Macross Plus actually has some noteriety outside of Macross (mostly in the anime arthouse circles) for being the breakout anime of Shinichiro Wantanabe (who later produced the cult favorite Cowboy Bebop). You'll find some more animosity toward Mac+ here on MW typically because it's a fan board and fans love to argue. Macross Plus is also generally considered the strongest sequel to the original SDF Macross after DYRL?, so often you'll find fans of the less popular sequels trying to steal Macross Plus' thunder

[bsu legato]

Wait a minute there.

-Singing pilots? Check! You apparently forgot about the Sharon Apple controlled Ghost X9

-Bird people? Check - You also apparently forgot about Sharon's very APHOS like appearance in the Movie Eidtion during the "Wanna Be An Angel" scene. As well as the huge freaking Dino-Bird.

BOMBA!

That's a stretch, even for you.

[Keith]

That's a stretch, even for you.

Not really, Plus & 7 actually share a lot in common. Like it or not, Isamu is Basara with live ammo.

[bsu legato]

Not really

No, really.

- An AI killbot-controlled Ghost is still a far cry from your primadonna Basara nancing about in his pretty airplane. If Sharon had performed some of her patented musical hypnosis while controlling the Ghost you'd have a leg to stand on. But she didn't.

- Even the homeless guy standing outside of the bus station knows that the big-ass bird represents Isamu's obsession with flight. And when I threw some pennies at his head, he blurted out that comparing Isamu to Basara is just retarded.

Edited November 20, 2006 by bsu legato

[eugimon]

I'm not sure why people think that mac plus is somehow less deserving of praise because it was a more or less self contained story. It had an interesting cast of characters, a pretty decent plot and great action.

I loved mac plus, it was the main reason why I got back into macross in general.

[bsu legato]

I'm not sure why people think that mac plus is somehow less deserving of praise because it was a more or less self contained story. It had an interesting cast of characters, a pretty decent plot and great action.

I loved mac plus, it was the main reason why I got back into macross in general.

X2

I think they're related to the fans who somehow believe that Gundam 0080 isn't a good story because it doesn't feature newtypes and/or has no real impact on the One Year War. And as crazy as it sounds, believe me when I say that they're out there.

[Zinjo]

It was shown in an interview that the idea for M+ (or Project Supernova as it was called) predates Top Gun by a year.

vinnie

Umm,

Top Gun = 1986

Macross Plus = 1994

Exactly how does it predate Top Gun?

Particlularly considering SK wanted nothing to do with Macross or variable aircraft for nearly a decade after SDFM...

[Zinjo]

I'm not sure why people think that mac plus is somehow less deserving of praise because it was a more or less self contained story. It had an interesting cast of characters, a pretty decent plot and great action.

I loved mac plus, it was the main reason why I got back into macross in general.

It does deserve praise, SK did a great job adapting his original non-macross story into Plus. I do agree with Grebo that it does mark a distinct departure by SK to pit VF's vs VF's as opposed to non-variable alien craft.

It may simply be that Japanese fan interest is prone to that type of action.

[Prime]

I like it simply because of the nice animation and good story contained in the larger Macross universe. Awesome VFs, great action, nice storyline. There is something for everyone here.

Unless you want boobed VFs and bird people.

[emajnthis]

Umm,

Top Gun = 1986

Macross Plus = 1994

Exactly how does it predate Top Gun?

Particlularly considering SK wanted nothing to do with Macross or variable aircraft for nearly a decade after SDFM...

I think the point they were trying to make, is Mac+ was influenced by the USAF ATF (advanced tactical fighter) project where Northrop's YF-23 (YF-21) was pinned up against Lockheeds YF-22 (YF-19) to replace the aging F15 (VF-11). Even the outcome of which is similar in that the YF-19 was chosen instead of the YF-21 even with the 21's specific performance advantages (In real life the 22 was chosen eventhough the 23 was faster, stealthier, and had the ability to employ thrust vectoring that was not included in the 23A due to changes in the initial project scope). It's even obvious that the YF-21 is directly influenced by the YF-23, and the eye candy YF-19 though not reminisent of the F22 is a very kind translation of the SU47 which was just starting to see daylight at the time. In any case, there are tons of similarities and little things to pick up on if you know about the history of those two planes that will give you a little chuckle as you watch Mac+, i don't think Top Gun was on Kawamori's mind when he conceived the concept.

Edited November 20, 2006 by emajnthis

[danth]

I don't like macross Plus a whole lot. Sure, there's good animation, some cool mecha designs, and Kanno's music, but there are some key aspects missing.

* Charm. There are no likeable characters in Macross Plus. It's kind of novel that all the main characters are jerks, but I certainly didn't care what happened to them. I was hoping Isamu would die, actually.

* Aesthetically pleasing character designs. Sharon Apple looks hot when she has short orange hair, but other than that, everyone in this show is a pain to look at. Maybe Kawamori was getting revenge on Mikimoto (over Macross II) by excluding him.

* A good stoy. Macross Plus introduces characters smoldering with anger or angst, and then reveals why through flashbacks. I can't fathom why so many animes use this weak technique; it's melodramatic and it's not compelling. I can only imagine how much better Macross Plus would have been if its main characters didn't know eachother from before. The whole "did Guld rape Myung" thing was totally gay.

[Noyhauser]

I don't like macross Plus a whole lot. Sure, there's good animation, some cool mecha designs, and Kanno's music, but there are some key aspects missing.

* Charm. There are no likeable characters in Macross Plus. It's kind of novel that all the main characters are jerks, but I certainly didn't care what happened to them. I was hoping Isamu would die, actually.

I thought the characters fit their part perfectly, not everybody in this world are nice and likable nor are they evil and distasteful. The reason why Isamu is sent to Eden is indicative of the type of person they wanted for Project Supernova, driven arrogant brash men, who would do anything to win and possessed skills in spades. And I don't think they were unlikable either. None of the three central characters were "evil" even Guld, and they all had their charms and vices. I think that made it more compelling rather than less. I felt for guld dying at the end.

* Aesthetically pleasing character designs. Sharon Apple looks hot when she has short orange hair, but other than that, everyone in this show is a pain to look at. Maybe Kawamori was getting revenge on Mikimoto (over Macross II) by excluding him.

Thats an pretty ignorant statement, particularly when he's working with Mikimoto on the macross 7 project AT THE SAME TIME.

* A good stoy. Macross Plus introduces characters smoldering with anger or angst, and then reveals why through flashbacks. I can't fathom why so many animes use this weak technique; it's melodramatic and it's not compelling. I can only imagine how much better Macross Plus would have been if its main characters didn't know eachother from before. The whole "did Guld rape Myung" thing was totally gay.

The story was a bit thin around the centre, but only one of the flashbacks are important, and thats the Guld one near the end. Really, I thought the first 3/4ths of the movie set up probably one of the most fantastic endings of all time, which is why the movie was actually better than the OVA. The Guld death sequence was a tragic one, and for me probably only matched by the Legend of the Galactic Heroes in its ability to toy with one's emotions.

[bsu legato]

The whole "did Guld rape Myung" thing was totally gay.

No, that would have been "Did Guld rape Isamu?"

[jenius]

No, that would have been "Did Guld rape Isamu?"

[Zinjo]

i don't think Top Gun was on Kawamori's mind when he conceived the concept.

Actually I read that Top Gun was how SK described Super Nova, it was never conceived as a Macross project initially.

* Aesthetically pleasing character designs. Sharon Apple looks hot when she has short orange hair, but other than that, everyone in this show is a pain to look at. Maybe Kawamori was getting revenge on Mikimoto (over Macross II) by excluding him.

Doubtful, Kawamori wanted nothing to do with Macross when Mac II was being produced and was shopping his Super Nova project around at the time. When he started working on Mac Plus, Mikimoto was doing the character designs for Mac 7, and if I remember correctly, he isn't the fasted artist, so expecting him to do character designs for both shows was asking a lot!

[justvinnie]

Umm,

Top Gun = 1986

Macross Plus = 1994

Exactly how does it predate Top Gun?

Particlularly considering SK wanted nothing to do with Macross or variable aircraft for nearly a decade after SDFM...

Sigh some people just don't read very carefully do they? I said the idea for M+ predates Top Gun. In an interview dated 1985 given after DYRL, Kawamori stated that he had a story idea for the advanced valkyrie fighter and how it is about two test pilots competing in Project Supernova. I seriously doubt Kawamori had the inside scoop on Top Gun's development.

[justvinnie]

Here you go.

Kawamori Interview

[JsARCLIGHT]

Call me blind here but I still do not see many correlations between Macross Plus and Top Gun. When you think about it, the plots and characters are quite different... about the only thing the two have in common is the notion of a hotshot a-hole pilot who has trouble with authority getting booted from a combat position into a non combat one, at which he is pretty good. Right about there the similarities end. Unless "Highway to the Danger Zone" is blaring somewhere I don't see and Val Kilmer makes a cameo as yet another arrogant a-hole hotshot pilot in Mac Plus I think the comparisons between the two are shallow at best.

As for my own views I don't really like Mac Plus. Sure it's "neat" and the animation is good but the story never grabbed me. I found it very blah... then again I'm not an uber aviation dork or mechafreak, and yet another brooding, overplayed "repressed emotions" Japanese melodrama is not my idea of entertaining. But to each their own...

[grebo guru]

Though I am annoyed that Mac+ established the now-standard Macross idiom ("VFs vs. VFs, always"), other than that I like it quite well. It was quite impressive all around, IMO.

And I actually liked Guld a lot. I thought he was a really sympathetic and tragic character.

Grebo!

[Zinjo]

Sigh some people just don't read very carefully do they? I said the idea for M+ predates Top Gun. In an interview dated 1985 given after DYRL, Kawamori stated that he had a story idea for the advanced valkyrie fighter and how it is about two test pilots competing in Project Supernova. I seriously doubt Kawamori had the inside scoop on Top Gun's development.

True, it was a germ of an idea at that time. However, SK had sworn off making sequels to Macross for reasons only he knows until 1992/93. The comparison is similar to how Escanflowne was compared to Evangelion eventhough they were developed completely independanty from one another.

1995 Interview

Though in this 2002 interview his pilgrimages tend to help explain his penchant for metaphysics in his more recent series'...

2002 Interview

Call me blind here but I still do not see many correlations between Macross Plus and Top Gun. When you think about it, the plots and characters are quite different... about the only thing the two have in common is the notion of a hotshot apeface pilot who has trouble with authority getting booted from a combat position into a non combat one, at which he is pretty good. Right about there the similarities end. Unless "Highway to the Danger Zone" is blaring somewhere I don't see and Val Kilmer makes a cameo as yet another arrogant apeface hotshot pilot in Mac Plus I think the comparisons between the two are shallow at best.

Well let's see, the hotshot pilot's main competition for the "prize" is a comparably skilled pilot who is much less wreckless and very critical of the hotshot. The hotshot's love interest is a civilian, and the whole climax turns out to be a dogfight that requires both pilots to work together to win...

Sounds similar to me... Could SK have been influenced by Top Gun in the final story? Possibly, but there are definite similarities, whether deliberate or not...

Edited November 21, 2006 by Zinjo

[anime52k8]

Call me blind here but I still do not see many correlations between Macross Plus and Top Gun. When you think about it, the plots and characters are quite different... about the only thing the two have in common is the notion of a hotshot apeface pilot who has trouble with authority getting booted from a combat position into a non combat one, at which he is pretty good. Right about there the similarities end. Unless "Highway to the Danger Zone" is blaring somewhere I don't see and Val Kilmer makes a cameo as yet another arrogant apeface hotshot pilot in Mac Plus I think the comparisons between the two are shallow at best.

lets see. there's the part you just out lined. the big similarity I see is the relationship between isamu and guld is a bit like the relationship between maverick and iceman (val kilmer). in that isamu/maverick are both natural born pilots but are arrogant hotshot apefaces and Guld/iceman is the expert pilot that's totaly by the books and this aposing nature cases them to but heads in an extremely competitive environment.

[eugimon]

hate to break it to you, but the plot of: reckless but talented hotshot versus stuffy by the book hard worker isn't exactly a new plot. The myth of cain and abel is pretty much the same story, substituting farming for flying around in jets.

a more recent example would be:

star wars: han solo and luke skywalker

I'm sure there are more, but I wanna watch heroes now.