How many micro-missiles?

[grebo guru]

Hey all,

As an RPGer, I am often frustrated by the lack of hard numbers in some VFs' stats. We know, for instance, how many missiles (full-size, mini-, and micro-, plus grenades) the Armored Valkyrie carries. Same with the Destroids, and several other mecha. However, there are many for which I have no idea.

The VF-17 has four Micromissile launch bays (2 on each shoulder), but how many missiles does each shoulder hold?

The UMM-7 Micromissile pod, which can be found loaded under the wings of Super/Strike Valkyries, has an array of 5 missiles visible... but is there a second volley of 5 in that box? Is there also a third?

The YF-21 has four Micromissile launch bays on its top/back, but how many missiles total does it hold? And then there's the VF-22S; it has additional Micromissile launchers, IIRC. I'm thinking of reviewing my Macross Plus DVDs and actually COUNTING how many missiles the YF-21 spews out in various scenes. This would at least give me a ballpark...

Anyone have an answers, opinions, or ideas?

Thanks!

Grebo

[briscojr84]

Hey all,

As an RPGer, I am often frustrated by the lack of hard numbers in some VFs' stats. We know, for instance, how many missiles (full-size, mini-, and micro-, plus grenades) the Armored Valkyrie carries. Same with the Destroids, and several other mecha. However, there are many for which I have no idea.

The VF-17 has four Micromissile launch bays (2 on each shoulder), but how many missiles does each shoulder hold?

The UMM-7 Micromissile pod, which can be found loaded under the wings of Super/Strike Valkyries, has an array of 5 missiles visible... but is there a second volley of 5 in that box? Is there also a third?

The YF-21 has four Micromissile launch bays on its top/back, but how many missiles total does it hold? And then there's the VF-22S; it has additional Micromissile launchers, IIRC. I'm thinking of reviewing my Macross Plus DVDs and actually COUNTING how many missiles the YF-21 spews out in various scenes. This would at least give me a ballpark...

Anyone have an answers, opinions, or ideas?

Thanks!

Grebo

I remember seeing a cutaway of the UMM-7 somewhere and it had either one or two more reloads for it, and there are a couple of pics of the YF-21 half-way apart with missiles being loaded into it's launchers, I'll see if I can find the UMM-7 pics and I know that the YF-21 pic is in one of my MPLUS books but they are at home, I'll track it down and let you know.

[Mr March]

I know for a fact each UUM-7 pod has 15 missiles per pod. Not only does lineart from the cross-section DYRL? poster (Gold Book) show it clearly, but I beleive the Macross Compendium also designates as much. I just finished my profile for the VF-1S Super Valkyrie, so it's fresh in my memory

The real question is, how many micro-missiles are in the FAST Pack HMMP-02 pods? The cross-sectional lineart only shows 3 per side exposed, so 6 missiles per pod would equal 12 missiles total. However, the art work is deceiving in that there could very well be a second row of three in a unexposed barrel drawn below the top three which could have 6 missiles per side, so 12 missiles per pod would equal 24 missiles total. This may make more sense, since each pod has two open launch ports on either side, one on top of the other. Three missiles per port on both sides.

Tough to say either way.

Edited November 18, 2006 by Mr March

[sketchley]

http://www.macrossroleplay.org/Sketchley/Statistics/VF22.htm

http://www.macrossrpg.com/docs/index.php/G...y_VF-21_Omega_1

Stats are educated guesstimates.

Take note that the VF-22 CANNOT mount the ventral FAST packs that were developed for the YF-21 - reason is that the VF-22 has built in missile launchers and conformal mounts for the gun pods there!

Both can have their missile totals expanded with either the Stonewell/Royce B-7 Standard Internal Pallet or the Stonewell/Royce B-11A Specialized Internal Pallet. The Compendium claims that the VF-22 has space for 3, though only two are shown in the anime.

Also, though it isn't shown in the anime nor mentioned in the Compendium, the cover of This is Animation: Macross Plus implies that a) wing missiles can be carried, and b) that a more aerodynamic version of the UUM-7 missile pod exists. Though, it is pretty much agreed upon that adding wing mounted stuff will reduce the performance (speed, manueverability), as well as ruin or reduce whatever stealthy attributes the VF may have.

Edited November 18, 2006 by sketchley

[sketchley]

The real question is, how many micro-missiles are in the FAST Pack HMMP-02 pods? The cross-sectional lineart only shows 3 per side exposed, so 6 missiles per pod would equal 12 missiles total. However, the art work is deceiving in that there could very well be a second row of three in a unexposed barrel drawn below the top three which could have 6 missiles per side, so 12 missiles per pod would equal 24 missiles total. This may make more sense, since each pod has two open launch ports on either side, one on top of the other. Three missiles per port on both sides.

Tough to say either way.

Agreed that it is tough to say either way. The circles I am involved with (read: hate munchkins in RPGs) generally agree that there is equipment, not missiles, in between the missile launchers and their magazines. Also, the launchers themselves should take up some space - at the very least, allowing for only 2 additional missiles (3+2=5 total), if no other equipment is in the FAST packs.

That said, FAST = Fuel And Sensor Tactical Packs. We know the Macross FAST packs have a rocket nozelle, fuel, and (sometimes, not always,) internally carried missiles. What about the sensor aspects of them? IMHO, that is what some of the equipment is that's in between the missile launchers and their magazines...

[briscojr84]

Agreed that it is tough to say either way. The circles I am involved with (read: hate munchkins in RPGs) generally agree that there is equipment, not missiles, in between the missile launchers and their magazines. Also, the launchers themselves should take up some space - at the very least, allowing for only 2 additional missiles (3+2=5 total), if no other equipment is in the FAST packs.

That said, FAST = Fuel And Sensor Tactical Packs. We know the Macross FAST packs have a rocket nozelle, fuel, and (sometimes, not always,) internally carried missiles. What about the sensor aspects of them? IMHO, that is what some of the equipment is that's in between the missile launchers and their magazines...

The sensor part could be referring to just the VE-1 packs though, of course there is probably an onboard computer that links with the VF-1's systems.

[sketchley]

As Kawamori has named these additional equipment options as both super parts (Ghost X-9, some of the VFs) and FAST packs (most of the VFs), I believe he knows what he is doing, when he adds something that has 'sensor' as part of it's name.

I think a valid question is: what are the additional sensors for the FAST packs created for the F-15 Eagle? (Which is what the Macross FAST packs are based off of, FYI.) I don't think it is much (a la the VE-1.) Perhaps nothing more than a dedicated sensor for the missile launcher, and expanded range for the sensors on the VF-1 (more processing power? Bigger antenna?)

Edited November 18, 2006 by sketchley

[Mr March]

Just came up with a third possibility for the FAST Pack missile loadout. A total of 16 missiles. Each pack has two rows of two missles and no missile sits in the actual launching port until being prepared for fire. So you got 4 missiles per side with 8 missiles per pod. Which equals 16 missiles total.

This actually makes the most sense I think out of all scenarios I've imagined so far.

[grebo guru]

And then tere's another possibility for the Super VF-1 missiles: There's a model kit (or is it a toy?) of the Super Valkyrie, and you can remove the cover of the missile launcher and you see the following: each side has 2 missiles ready for launch, and then two rows of four missiles. So, each launcher has a total of 20 missiles, or 40 total for both of the backpack units combined.

Not official, but neat nonetheless.

So.... I guess I am actually gonna have to review Macross Plus tomorrow and count missiles. Hmmm. Will need snacks.

Grebo!

(PS - thanx for the pic, Mr March. Already saw the poster, but that b&w non-negative version is nice.)

[Mr March]

An interesting note grebo. I beleive you're refering to the Yamato 1/48 Scale Valkyries with FAST Packs. Yes, they indeed have 20 micro-missiles per pod, for an impressive 40 missiles total. If one were to follow the toy, count the two arm units with 6 missiles total and have four UUM-7 missile pods in each hardpoint, the Valkyrie would have a grand total of 106 missiles! LOL

Unfortunately, the official lineart definitely doesn't support the possibilitiy of four missile rows per side in the HMMP-02 pods. There is clearly only room for two cylindrical rows per side. Since that single piece of lineart is the only official say one way or the other, the most generous interpretation of the lineart would yield a maximum number of 24 total missiles divided evenly in the two pods.

To my mind, a total missile load of 16 still makes the most sense.

Btw, you're welcome for the picture

[Roy Focker]

Bud comes in packs of 6, 12 or 24 cans I believes.

[David Hingtgen]

The "S" part of the F-15's FAST pack (Fuel And Sensor Tactical) never came to be, but it was going to be for reconnaisance--cameras, IR imagery, etc. The F-14 ironically did get a special recon pod--the TARPS pod.

[Cruel Angel's Thesis]

reminds of those discussions I had with you a couple years back when i was doing the Valkyries. Not a bad idea, was thinking the same thing for the ammo for the YF-19, still am thinking about it.

Cruel Angel's Thesis

[grebo guru]

Well, I did it. I rewatched Macross Plus and counted all the missiles. It was pretty gruelling. Anyway, here are my results:

(drum roll please)

YF-21

The fastpacks hold a total of 48 micromissiles (8 per launch port), and the body holds 20 micromissiles (5 per launch port).

YF-19

The fastpacks hold at least 8 micromissiles (at least 2 per launch port), and the leg pallets can hold 4 AAMs (2 per leg) or 12 micromissiles (6 per leg) or 2 AAMs and 6 micromissiles (1 AAM and 3 micromissiles per leg).

(Considering that the YF-19 and YF-21 were designed to meet the same requirements, I owe the drastic differences in missile counts to warhead size. The YF-19 packs a smallish amount of high-damage missiles, while the YF-21 loads a much larger amount of less powerful missiles.)

Yes, folks, there you have it. My home-cooked Best Guess!!! Below I “show my work.â€

Grebo

===============================

YF-21

During the fight between Guld & Isamu on Earth, the YF-21 does the following:

* First, it launches a volley of 10 micromissiles. It's totally unclear whether they come from the back launchers or the fastpacks. But! There are four missile ports in the body and six in the fastpacks (3 per leg-cover panel). Since 10 isn’t divisible by 4 or 6, I don’t think these missiles are all coming from either the body or the fastpacks. My best guesstimate is that each port is firing one missile. So that’s 4 missiles from the body and 6 from the fastpacks.

* Soon after, the YF-21 launches a volley of 12 missiles. These are definitely from the fastpacks. However, the next shot (wherein the missiles attack Isamu and he shoots them down) shows 17 missiles attacking him and being destroyed. It’s kinda hard to tell the exact number of missiles; I’d say 18 is a more likely number than 17, as it’s entirely possible there was another missile flying around in there someplace AND 18 is divisible by 6 (the number of micromissile ports in the fastpacks). So, my best guesstimate here is for another 18 micromissiles from the fastpacks.

* Guld's final missile barrage, during which he realizes his own dark past, is pretty hard to follow. However, to the best of my ability, I count that he fired 24 missiles from the fastpacks and either 14 or up to 24 missiles from the top/back launchers. (The latter , indeterminate number is based on a different, more distant stillframe. The smoke trails get all faint and mix together.) Given that there are four back/body ports, 16, 20, or 24 are most likely numbers for the body portion of the barrage. However, once we see the missiles home in on Isamu and explode, it gets tricky. The animation is reused here, a couple of times in fact, so depending on how one decides to count them, either 17, 18, 24, or even 59 missiles explode. Given the weird, subjective approach to time in this sequence, though, (plus the reuse of animation), I think I’ve gotta disqualify that 59 count. Now, based on the fact that Guld fired four “waves†of missiles from the fastpacks (1 missile per port equals one wave, so six missiles per wave) , and the missiles all appear to be launching in tandem, it’s probable that he fires four waves from the body as well. That would be 16 missiles. So 16 it is. This makes the best guesstimate for this sequence 16 more missiles from the body and 24 more from the fastpacks.

========================

YF-19

During the same fight, the YF-19 does the following:

* First it fires two large-ish air-to-air missiles (not micromissiles); one from between each lower leg and fastpack. It’s not clear if the missiles come from inside the fastpacks or from the legs’ internal weapons pallets, and it’s also not clear if there’s room for another AAM in/on each leg. I figure that these missiles most likely came from inside the leg pallets; if they were fastpack armament, I should think the fastpacks would have been designed with a simpler, more secure way to fire them. Also, the Compendium says the YF-19 has “two [four] B-19A YF-19-exclusive internal weapons palletsâ€. This, I gather, would mean room for (potentially) two AAMs per leg.

* Next, Isamu fires 6 micromissiles from the leg fastpacks (3 from each). However, when we see them homing in on the YF-21, the number of missiles has increased to 8. Given that the YF-19’s leg fastpacks have two missile ports each, volleys divisible by 4 make more sense, so I’m going with the 8-count here. Anyway, right after this the YF-19's leg fastpacks are lost (one is blown up by a shot from Guld, and during the explosion the other leg's fastpack comes off -- it's unclear whether it’s knocked off or deliberately jettisoned). If those leg packs held more micromissiles, we’ll never know.

* After this, Isamu fires another 5 to 6 micromissiles at Guld, missing him and hitting a building. (The 6-count seems the more likely, as it’s divisible by 2.) This volley is tricky, though. The YF-19 has already lost its leg fastpacks, so the missiles couldn’t have come from there. The YF-19 does still have the shoulder fastpacks, but those aren’t supposed to hold any micromissiles. Therefore, they must come from the legs’ internal pallets… but above I noted that the leg pallets are (probably) loaded with AAMs in this scene. Since the YF-19 can load two B-19A pallets per leg, it’s possible that each leg could store one AAM in one pallet and 3 micromissiles (or more) in the other pallet, for a total of two AAMs and 6+ missiles total. But there’s another factor to consider: the projectiles in this shot are very small and appear very briefly, and when they hit the building the impacts don't look that much like missile explosions. In fact, in some stillframes the projectiles look kinda like gunpod shots -- and yet in other stillframes the projetiles sure do look like micromissiles. Argh! Annoyingly, there isn't any distinguishable sound effect associated with these shots and impacts; they're drowned out by the sound effects of the YF-21 dodging them and Guld's dialogue. Ultimately, I’m going with the supposition that they are indeed micromissiles; if they were not, they would look like gunshots in all frames.

=======================

Okay! That's all the missiles that the YF-19 and YF-21 fire in all of Macross Plus -- excluding the Movie Edition, which I don't own yet. Anyway, these counts are of course entirely suspect. I mean, it’s totally possible that Guld had more missiles when he died (although if he did have more, one would think he’d have p used them). Similary, Isamu may well have had more missiles in his fastpacks when they were lost, but like I said, we’ll never know, so all I can do is go with what we’re given. And the YF-19’s leg pallets might also have had more missiles in them as well, but just as with Guld, if Isamu still had missiles left, he’d probably have used them against Sharon Apple or the Ghost or something…

[grebo guru]

Whoops, I almost forgot: I also counted the missile spewed by that Zentradi battlesuit in the opening. It fired 46 missiles.

Greebly!

[Mr March]

I bow to your patience and research grebo. You're amazing. I'll make sure to note these numbers for my updated Macross Plus profiles and credit your efforts. Well done!

[grebo guru]

Aw shucks, MM.

I bow to your patience and research grebo. You're amazing. I'll make sure to note these numbers for my updated Macross Plus profiles and credit your efforts. Well done!

[Cruel Angel's Thesis]

Wow, i must admit WOW! You must've watched those scene's several times over. Well now i must pull out my stuck in time YF-19 and YF-21 stats i have promised the MZML i would post some time ago. Been busy moving from place to place and having to find the binder, Just finished my who's know revision. I used the compendium and several fansites to develop mine and some talks with you. Lets see i have for the YF-19 eithier 18 Bifors BMM-24 or 4 HMM-02. HMM-02 is my classification for the latest set of AAM's. I had nothing else to work so i went on from here. I guess it should be AMM-2 to show its the next gen of AMM's instead of HMM, but i went with what the compendium said it stood for. Well I'll end up changing it in the end. Lets see for the FAST packs 24 Bifors BMM-24. Man i overpowered the sucka. Seems with AAM loads i was right.

The YF-21 i have 48 Bifors BML-02S. With the FAST i have 24 Bifors BML-02S. Well flip them and i have almost the same you have.

Guess i should just revise mine to match yours, you have done the reasearch here. I should change damage loads, leave the YF-19 where they are and drop the YF-21 by one kill (5 Kills would be the new damage). Job well done. I once am awed by the lengths you go for this.

Cruel Angel's Thesis

[grebo guru]

Aw shucks again, C.A.T.

Wow, i must admit WOW! You must've watched those scene's several times over. Well now i must pull out my stuck in time YF-19 and YF-21 stats i have promised the MZML i would post some time ago. Been busy moving from place to place and having to find the binder, Just finished my who's know revision. I used the compendium and several fansites to develop mine and some talks with you. Lets see i have for the YF-19 eithier 18 Bifors BMM-24 or 4 HMM-02. HMM-02 is my classification for the latest set of AAM's. I had nothing else to work so i went on from here. I guess it should be AMM-2 to show its the next gen of AMM's instead of HMM, but i went with what the compendium said it stood for. Well I'll end up changing it in the end. Lets see for the FAST packs 24 Bifors BMM-24. Man i overpowered the sucka. Seems with AAM loads i was right.

The YF-21 i have 48 Bifors BML-02S. With the FAST i have 24 Bifors BML-02S. Well flip them and i have almost the same you have.

Guess i should just revise mine to match yours, you have done the reasearch here. I should change damage loads, leave the YF-19 where they are and drop the YF-21 by one kill (5 Kills would be the new damage). Job well done. I once am awed by the lengths you go for this.

Cruel Angel's Thesis

[valk1j]

There is lineart out there for the B-19A pallets, if I remember correctly they hold 4 missiles in each pallet (leg). If someone has it, I would greatly appreciate seeing this lineart again, as I have seemed to lost the pic from my harddrive.

[valk1j]

Found a pic, but its small.

[grebo guru]

Huh. Interesting.

(looks closer)

Oh please, Kawamori! With that much stuff in the leg pallets, there really wouldn't be enough room for the engines. Yarg!

Official lineart or not, I gotta declare bulls**t on this. Shame on Kawamori! Pooey!

Thanks for dredging up the pic, though, valk1j. Goddamn but Nanashi's site musta been terrific. I wish it were still up... Or at least, if he'd make his images available to us all.

Found a pic, but its small.

[Roy Focker]

Thanks for dredging up the pic, though, valk1j. Goddamn but Nanashi's site musta been terrific. I wish it were still up... Or at least, if he'd make his images available to us all.

In memory of Duke Togo: "Ha!"

[valk1j]

I remember seeing a cutaway of the UMM-7 somewhere and it had either one or two more reloads for it, and there are a couple of pics of the YF-21 half-way apart with missiles being loaded into it's launchers, I'll see if I can find the UMM-7 pics and I know that the YF-21 pic is in one of my MPLUS books but they are at home, I'll track it down and let you know.

UMM-7 cutaway.