Why macross fans thinks Macross 2 is worse than Macross 7?

[kamikaze_kamujin]

Im watching some Macross 7 episodes again and I truly

think I could write a "100 reasons why Macross 7 sucks"

No one bothered by monsters, energy music, a macross canon size beam powered

by singing, Mylene healing Basara with a song?

How much do you think Macross 7 influenced or could influence Macross sequels

turning it more to the fantasy side? No one worried that it could make Macross

sequels lose its credibility, argument quality and instead of elaborated scenarios getting

childish scenarios?

[briscojr84]

Im watching some Macross 7 episodes again and I truly

think I could write a "100 reasons why Macross 7 sucks"

No one bothered by monsters, energy music, a macross canon size beam powered

by singing, Mylene healing Basara with a song?

How much do you think Macross 7 influenced or could influence Macross sequels

turning it more to the fantasy side? No one worried that it could make Macross

sequels lose its credibility, argument quality and instead of elaborated scenarios getting

childish scenarios?

It's been stated before that SK does something different with each sequel, I doubt if we will see anything of M7's like again, and if SK doesn't do anymore Macross and someone else picks it up that stuff will most likely be more along the lines of SDFM and Plus.

[ghostryder]

... Mylene healing Basara with a song?

Jesus, I'm plodding through M7 right now. Are you telling me Basara won't die in Ep. 47 "Death of Basara"?

I'm gonna stop watching now, and go take a shower to wash the gay away...

[briscojr84]

Jesus, I'm plodding through M7 right now. Are you telling me Basara won't die in Ep. 47 "Death of Basara"?

I'm gonna stop watching now, and go take a shower to wash the gay away...

Please let's not degenerate into calling things gay and what not, this thread has stayed pretty calm so far.

[Mr March]

"She called me gay. I'm not gay. You gotta talk to her Chuck. You gotta tell her I'm not gay"

[jenius]

As far as fantasy elements making it into the Macross sequels, I seem to recall Shin flying around on a rock at some point in Zero. Yes, it was drawn less colorfully than Mac7 but it sure seemed to be a bit more fantasy than the original SDFM.

[Aegis!]

As far as fantasy elements making it into the Macross sequels, I seem to recall Shin flying around on a rock at some point in Zero. Yes, it was drawn less colorfully than Mac7 but it sure seemed to be a bit more fantasy than the original SDFM.

Did you happen to notice that Sara was actually unable to levitate normal rocks and instead could only manipulate painted rocks ?

I think most criticism towards Macross Zero comes from the fact that those people don´t actually watch the OVA more than twice and don´t bother to pay attention to all the details of the show.

It´s explained through the leyend that Mayan islands are the remains of a Protoculture vessel, the totem that Sara manipulated wasn´t just a normal rock , it was inscribed with ancient lettering, for all we know it could have been nanotechnology responding to special frequencies from Sara´s brain.

Not just because something is not fully explained it means it´s just what your eyes see. Birds fly too, not because they rely on magic but because of aerodinamics and evolution, you don´t see birds with a sticker on their wings with an explanation of how they fly do you ?.

The whole point of Macross Zero plot was to highlight the fact that technology was replacing the natural order in the world, even Mayan´s fairy tales were affected by this new reality and they finally discovered their gods were actually aliens who came from space to manipulate their genes.

I see people complain about rocks flying in M0 but they never argue how the AFOS actually levitated and how it made a whole fleet of carriers and submarines float on the air too.

How do we now those rocks were really rocks and not the same sort of alien material which the AFOS was made of ? maybe it could respond solely to protoculture´s brain activity.

Why should the rocks look like spaceship remains ? I don´t see why would the PC use buttons to use their technology when nowadays humans can work with computers just using their voice.

Why would they have to build their spaceship with a visible interface when they can comunicate by thought or sound with it. Sara communicated with the AFOS by thought , I didn´t see any interface in that scene, why should the rocks be any different ? maybe they used to be something else before and they just broke down into ¨rocks¨.

I could go on and on. It´s just a matter of thinking beyond what´s obvious and connecting the facts that are presented before us in the show.

Edited November 15, 2006 by Aegis!

[sketchley]

Come to think of it... the 'interface' Sara had with the Birdman - tenticles - looks basically the same as the tenticles seen in the Zentraedi ships in DYRL. I think Aegis!'s arguement about a different means of communication with machines has merit.

Hey, isn't that what M7 had too (a different means of communicating with a machine - in the form of a guitar)?

[danth]

How do we now those rocks were really rocks and not some sort of alien material which would respond solely to protoculture´s brain activity. I don´t see why would the PC use buttons to use their technology when nowadays humans can work with computers just using their voice.

If you're going to go that far, why not do the same for Macross 7? How do we know that consciousness or "spiritia" cannot affect physical reality in some way? Consciousness really does affect reality if you look at quantum physics. A conscious observer can collapse a probability wave, so who knows what else consciousness can do.

I know a lot of you people who complain about Macross 7 must like fantasy -- stories involving magic. I take it you just don't like it when someone gets fantasy in your Macross?

Edited November 15, 2006 by danth

[Aegis!]

If you're going to go that far, why not do the same for Macross 7? How do we know that consciousness or "spiritia" cannot affect physical reality in some way? Consciousness really does affect reality if you look at quantum physics. A conscious observer can collapse a probability wave, so who knows what else consciousness can do.

I know a lot of you people who complain about Macross 7 must like fantasy -- stories involving magic. I take it you just don't like it when someone gets fantasy in your Macross?

In fact, I hate fantasy and I hate M7 for the same reason.

but I see a difference bewteen M0 and M7: M0 can be explained using every fact presented within the show and sound logical in the end, M7 in the other had was downright fantasy.

In fact, there´s not one reference to special spirit energy in M0, all we ever see or hear is Sara singing and meditating, I don´t see how things may not be affected by sounds or brain activity.

Yes, Shin does fly in his winged VF-0 towards space by the end of the OVA , but how is the AFOS energy barrier any different from the blue energy field around the VF-0 ? is it magical just because it had wings ? wasn´t the protoculture refered as bird-people by the natives ? isn´t it a coincidence that the only time winged people/objects are present is when the AFOS is involved ?

Edited November 15, 2006 by Aegis!

[Mr March]

If after two viewings, one still has to see Macross Zero again and again to make sense, the show better be an artistic, existential, autuer driven metaphor...that ultimately WORKS. Sadly, Macross Zero is not even close to meeting such criteria; it's just damn poor writing that requires too much ridiculous supposition to conveniently "fill in the blanks." Besides, the glaring holes in the sci-fi fiction of Macross Zero is far less relevant than the more serious criticisms of the story and characters, which I beleive myself and most fans find is largely responsible for the poor quality of Macross Zero OVA. Sara Nome's mystical abilities is just insult to injury at this point.

[jenius]

Wow, I was reading over the previous posts and was just about to write nearly exactly what Mr. March had already said. Excellent summation sir.

Also note that I said "A bit more fantasy than the original SDFM" not "A bit more fantasy than M7" or something like that. The original series is relatively grounded (obviously with exception to the crazy conventions of the giant transforming robo universe). Minmay's singing affected people's hearts and minds as did culture as a whole. Minmay's singing did not shoot rays of love energy or make rocks fly. I say "rocks" because that's all we know them to be. The AFOS we know to be an extra-terrestial bad ass so, by the typical giant robo conventions, we grant it the ability to make the impossible happen (ranging from levitating ships to judging good guys from bad).

Edited November 15, 2006 by jenius

[Keith]

Actually, 7 has far more inner series technology to explain its phenomena than Zero does. There's no magic or fantasy in 7, its all (somewhat) explained with technology, & bio-technology interfaces.

[JB0]

Actually, 7 has far more inner series technology to explain its phenomena than Zero does. There's no magic or fantasy in 7, its all (somewhat) explained with technology, & bio-technology interfaces.

Less magic.

Song energy/anima spiritia is still magic. It just isn't as ... pronounced... as Zero's magic(in that it needs technological harnessing to do anything interesting).

Edited November 15, 2006 by JB0

[Zinjo]

I know a lot of you people who complain about Macross 7 must like fantasy -- stories involving magic. I take it you just don't like it when someone gets fantasy in your Macross?

Yeah, kinda like sand in your shorts at the beach, very irritating...

However, I see no need to resort to name calling just because a few Mac 7 fans got a bit silly with Roman numerals (you know the other way to write numbers ) ...

Mac 7 is a decent kids show, not aimed at adolescents and young adults like SDFM, but good enough for it's target audience. There had to be some explanation for the copious amount of j-pop in the show.

Mac Zero was definitley aimed at exploring the enigmatic abilities and biotechnology of the Protoculture in a unification war setting. Sara's telekinetic abilities and the uber powerful biomechanical AFOS that was capable of extending and directing it's own AG field to other objects as well as it's own macross type cannon.

Not to mention it's brainwave type of control systems previously introduced in Mac Plus.

I agree, that SK could be at a level in his story telling that he is capable of writing a fully layered show that would require multiple views to fully appreciate it.

[sketchley]

AFOS that was capable of extending and directing it's own AG field to other objects as well as it's own macross type cannon.

Let's keep that discussion out of this thread. Agreed that the Birdman has the power to take control (and possibly power) machines that are derivatives of Protoculture technology, and that it is "uber" powerful.

That said, isn't this thread supposed to be on Macross II and 7? (or is that 2 and VII?)

Agreed that II has plenty of magic - magic to suspend the viewers disbelief about how shockingly bad the story is. Journalist has access to civilian VF that is not only able to fly undetected by the enemy, but penetrate an enemy ship in the midst of it's explosive destruction, and return to Earth unscathed with an alien girl in it. Wait... didn't that battle happen at the orbit of Jupiter? Then there are his friends who can singlehandedly operate the SDF-1 when it required a whole crew in DYRL and the original series... don't get me wrong, Macross 7 isn't fine literature either, but at least there's adequate explanations that are relevant to in-universe concepts and situations.

The way I see Macross 7 is, in the first half at least, a show about a rock band during a time of war with aliens, and transforming jets, and the leader of the rock band is doing the cliched rock band thing of protesting something. In this case - war (hey wait - wasn't that what the original TV series and DYRL were about too?) Macross II... I can't think of a theme for the entire series. I think it's basically about big ships making bigger explosions - on those terms it's passably okay, but is a let down in the final chapter. As far as stories in general go - a story without a theme isn't much of a story.

[jenius]

Wait, so Sketchley you're saying Hibiki having a valk = bad but Basara having a valk is in with the theme of the original Macross and so it's okay? I find that to be an interesting take on things. I also loved the explanation of why Basara had a valk and the thought process behind it... oh no... wait... that's never really cleared up is it? At least we know Hibiki has a valk so he could report on a war. Basically I think it comes back to which steaming pile of poo you like more and I'd still contend you don't have to smell MacII for as long as Mac7 so that's the edge it has. MacII's theme is that man's greatest weapon is not his battleships (which the Marduk can best) but culture & love. In fact, the entire thing seems listed straight from DYRL. Mac7's theme? When things look bad, sing and dance and the whole universe will love you! See, the themes are actually pretty similar.

[sketchley]

I didn't say it's because he has a VF. I said it's because he has access to a magical VF that is beyond the uber VFs of Macross Plus, despite it's lack of weapons.

There is an explanation in Macross 7, if I remember correctly. The Fire VF was some kind of military experiment at first - call it torturing the enemy, if you will.

[justvinnie]

I didn't say it's because he has a VF. I said it's because he has access to a magical VF that is beyond the uber VFs of Macross Plus, despite it's lack of weapons.

There is an explanation in Macross 7, if I remember correctly. The Fire VF was some kind of military experiment at first - call it torturing the enemy, if you will.

Project M. They made it quite clear that Basara's valkyrie belongs to the military trying to reproduce, for lack of a better phrase, "The Minmei Effect". Basara only pilots it, not own it. Max authorized it. More than anything, I think Max didn't want to have to fight all the time. This was a way to resolve conflicts if it could be reproduced. He put it under the charge of Colonel Barton who is hardcore military.

vinnie

[treatment]

Let's keep that discussion out of this thread. Agreed that the Birdman has the power to take control (and possibly power) machines that are derivatives of Protoculture technology, and that it is "uber" powerful.

That said, isn't this thread supposed to be on Macross II and 7? (or is that 2 and VII?)

Agreed that II has plenty of magic - magic to suspend the viewers disbelief about how shockingly bad the story is. Journalist has access to civilian VF that is not only able to fly undetected by the enemy, but penetrate an enemy ship in the midst of it's explosive destruction, and return to Earth unscathed with an alien girl in it. Wait... didn't that battle happen at the orbit of Jupiter? Then there are his friends who can singlehandedly operate the SDF-1 when it required a whole crew in DYRL and the original series... don't get me wrong, Macross 7 isn't fine literature either, but at least there's adequate explanations that are relevant to in-universe concepts and situations.

The news-corp owns the Valk, not Hibiki. Hibiki's also a trained and licensed valk-pilot.

It's been a long while , but as far as I can remember, I believe the antique SDF-1 was operated using a program-disc. Even then, it can only barely hover and do a limited alpha-shot.

Try to watch it again since of all things, M-II actually had a pretty believable reasons for the things and stuff they were doing despite being only limited to 6-eps.

The question that needs to be asked about M-II was how the heck did the SDF-1 bridge survived the attack.

The way I see Macross 7 is, in the first half at least, a show about a rock band during a time of war with aliens, and transforming jets, and the leader of the rock band is doing the cliched rock band thing of protesting something. In this case - war (hey wait - wasn't that what the original TV series and DYRL were about too?) Macross II... I can't think of a theme for the entire series. I think it's basically about big ships making bigger explosions - on those terms it's passably okay, but is a let down in the final chapter. As far as stories in general go - a story without a theme isn't much of a story.

I think the theme for M7 is to have mechas with boobies and faces.

Edited November 15, 2006 by treatment

[jenius]

Project M. They made it quite clear that Basara's valkyrie belongs to the military trying to reproduce, for lack of a better phrase, "The Minmei Effect". Basara only pilots it, not own it. Max authorized it. More than anything, I think Max didn't want to have to fight all the time. This was a way to resolve conflicts if it could be reproduced. He put it under the charge of Colonel Barton who is hardcore military.

Alright, so they decide it's time to make the world's ugliest valk and send it out to the enemy to emulate Minmay's singing. Um, I guess I follow so far. They decide, to do this, where does Basara get involved? Project M seems to always be something mentioned in passing, as in the whole "it's not really important, Basara has a valk, deal with it" and it's almost put exactly that way to Gamlin. I just don't see where Project M with Basara at the helm being any more or less believable then a news channel owning a Valk. That said, Sketchley did clarify for me that it was the feats that valk pulled off that he had a problem with and I agree with that. I also find Basara's prancing through battles to be even more outlandish than the Scramble News Network valk doing what it did. Aw but wait, I'm forgeting that Basara can reach Q9 or whatever BS they invented. Wow, both series are so bad.

[kamikaze_kamujin]

"There is no magic or fantasy in Macross 7"

Do you think Spiritia exists?

Do you think you can take energy from singing and fire a nuclear cannon?

Do you think you can create a human-alike life form who flies and lives through space

and feeds from other people's spirits?

Do you think there are large monsters who fires cannon from the mouths?

Do you remotely care about real science and technology?

Are you going to make any kind of statement to support Macross 7 or are you going to

support it for what it really has? Do you really believe what you just said?

Nobody appreciates science here and am I going to be the only one replying to this?

I've seen some of you take into deep discussions about the factibility of science and

technology in Macross, how can you implicity agree with this? because I just cant

am I the only one who feels embarrased of getting deeply into sci/tech discussions about

Macross and later taking for valid something like this?

Dont take me wrong, it's nothing personal but someone who appreciates

the credibility of the sci/tech stuff of other macross productions

has to say something with a statement like that. I can deal with there might be "cool things" I cant see from Macross 7, but I cant avoid replying with someone saying something so false about Macross 7,

even if it's in purpose or not. If the post it's too agressive you just will have to forgive me but what you

said it's just so wrong.

[azrael]

Project M. They made it quite clear that Basara's valkyrie belongs to the military trying to reproduce, for lack of a better phrase, "The Minmei Effect". Basara only pilots it, not own it. Max authorized it. More than anything, I think Max didn't want to have to fight all the time. This was a way to resolve conflicts if it could be reproduced. He put it under the charge of Colonel Barton who is hardcore military.

Since the chances of running into a Zentradi fleet are fairly high, and since many can persuaded to enter into negotiations via the "Minmei Effect", this is a logical solution. When M7 encountered a Meltrandi fleet, the first attempt to cease fire was to send out Fire Bomber. Didn't quite go as plan since Mylene wasn't "persuasive" enough. Although they did respond very well to Basara, so it all worked out in the end.

"There is no magic or fantasy in Macross 7"

Someone once said, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.”

[Zinjo]

Someone once said, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.â€

That would be Arthur C. Clarke and I somehow don't think he was refering to Basara and his Kai...

Since the chances of running into a Zentradi fleet are fairly high, and since many can persuaded to enter into negotiations via the "Minmei Effect", this is a logical solution.

I tend to believe the chances of running into a SA fleet would be far more likely since Bodolza's armada was effectively wiped out by the battle over Earth and the mutiny within his ranks. That would give the SA a distinct advantage in our slice of the galaxy.

Edited November 15, 2006 by Zinjo

[briscojr84]

I think one of the major problems we are having with it is the root word for spiritia is spirit, maybe we should look at more from a bio-electric stand point.

Humans can almost be considered as batteries, you drain off too much energy and they start to fail [coma etc], sounds that are enjoyed or sounds that stimulate anger may recharge that source by stimulate the persons brain functions in a certain manner?

[jenius]

The fact that we have to try soooooo hard to get Mac7 not to seem like ridiculous magic is the first step to realizing it's not worth the effort. Yes, sound is energy. Yes, emotions are powerful. No, the crap we see in Mac7 is not plausible. The bad guys are outlandish (seriously, who came up with THOSE character designs?), the implementation of "Sound Energy" is a joke, Basara avoiding harm is a joke, Gamlin surviving death is a joke, etc etc. It's a show that is benign fun for children but I personally crave a show that at least occasionally indulges an adult audience and I felt the original Macross did that. MacII at least has a more significant sense of fear about it (although it too is done poorly).

[kamikaze_kamujin]

Someone once said, “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.â€

yeah, but it's not the other way around. You might not understand completely the way a very advanced technology works and in appearence you might see it as "magical" in part, but you cant confuse magic with technology or science. Magic doesnt follow any pattern, it allows making whatever you want, science and technology follows the patterns of the laws of the universe. Science and technology exists, magic doesnt. What can be done and what cant be done isnt all what see today, but it isnt anything either. You arent going to see monsters firing cannons , a "vampire" dragging "spiritia" flying through space with a human alike body today or in millon years

[justvinnie]

Alright, so they decide it's time to make the world's ugliest valk and send it out to the enemy to emulate Minmay's singing. Um, I guess I follow so far. They decide, to do this, where does Basara get involved? Project M seems to always be something mentioned in passing, as in the whole "it's not really important, Basara has a valk, deal with it" and it's almost put exactly that way to Gamlin. I just don't see where Project M with Basara at the helm being any more or less believable then a news channel owning a Valk. That said, Sketchley did clarify for me that it was the feats that valk pulled off that he had a problem with and I agree with that. I also find Basara's prancing through battles to be even more outlandish than the Scramble News Network valk doing what it did. Aw but wait, I'm forgeting that Basara can reach Q9 or whatever BS they invented. Wow, both series are so bad.

Basara was not involved. Ray was. As an ex ace pilot with pacifist tendencies, it is only natural that Ray mediated Project M. The Fire Valkyrie is not Basara, it's the military's. He only pilots it because they let him and why it was so hush hush from the rest of the fleet. Fact is Basara wanted nothing to do with the military and would have probably refused to pilot the valkyrie if he knew its source. Ray recognized Basara's passion and talent as both a singer and pilot. That made him the perfect candidate for Project M.

Is it so hard to believe that if battroids existed that there would exist difficult to execute maneuvers? After all they exist for jet fighters. QM-69 is a battroid maneuver that one to accelerate while performings rolls and strafing action at once, subjecting the pilot to intense stress.

I just finished the series again and damn if it doesn't hit the spot for me everytime. When everyone has succcumbed from the spiritia drain, and Basara starts singing again while in his visions, Exedol said it best, "And still, Basara sings."

And while we are talking about science, if I don't have a problem with it I'm not sure why everyone else does. I'm a practicing research scientist for almost a decade now as well as plenty of degrees to follow after my name. I'm pretty sure that very few members on this board come close to the level of research and science training I have.

vinnie

[jenius]

So you're saying you're okay with Basara and project M and you find it more reasonable than a news organization with a valk? Yes, QM-69 is literally laughable to me. Literally because I seriously did laugh... then cringed as it was discussed. Everything about it is silly from the presentation in the episode to the sloppiness in determing what it actually is. Gamlin is good... but he's no QM-69er? C'mon, seriously, they just tried to quantify Basara's piloting ability as if the children watching it weren't able to determine already that Basara was a good pilot. Ugh, gag. I wonder if Hibiki could QM-69? Does Max QM-69 before he eats breakfast in the morning? Yeah, difficult maneuvers I'm fine with so long as they're presented as such and not mystified. I guess it's like Tony Hawk's 720. The only problem is, this is war, not an exhibition. Wait, is it war? Heck, in Mac7 if you got beat you just ended up in a coma that you would probably recover from. No one dies because we have fluffy love rays of Basara energy to tuck us in at night... shudder.

This isn't an issue about science so much as it is an issue of us having to believe what we're watching. When things get outlandish we can't take it seriously. Mac7 is constantly outlandish and can nearly never be taken seriously. Even the relationships are silly at best. Oh that Basara! There he goes again! Aw Mylene, she's so conflicted. Go Gubaba go! Repeat ad nauseum (sp?)

MacII deserves similar levels of beratement though. I think most of that has been stated by others in this thread already.

[Zinjo]

yeah, but it's not the other way around. You might not understand completely the way a very advanced technology works and in appearence you might see it as "magical" in part, but you cant confuse magic with technology or science. Magic doesnt follow any pattern, it allows making whatever you want, science and technology follows the patterns of the laws of the universe. Science and technology exists, magic doesnt. What can be done and what cant be done isnt all what see today, but it isnt anything either. You arent going to see monsters firing cannons , a "vampire" dragging "spiritia" flying through space with a human alike body today or in millon years

Kamikaze_kamujin, that is what the quote is saying. To those who don't know how an advanced technology works, it looks like magic. What would a gun look like to a cave man? Magic...

However, the point that some are making is that Sound Force IS magic, there is no basis in reality for a "song" on it's own to have the power to sheild a macross cannon type blast. That is only one example.

briscojr84 made a point. If "Spiritia" is in fact the electrolyte energy generated by the human body then that changes things, however it doesn't explain how such energy could be amassed by one individual to such a point that it attains physical properties such as an energy shield or energy beam...

It is also a condition that can be treated medically and doesn't require musak to be pumped into a hospital ward. So the vampire victims didn't need Basara to recover...

The character of Basara is written like a superhero and that works for kids, but not necessarily adolescents or young adults.

[justvinnie]

So you're saying you're okay with Basara and project M and you find it more reasonable than a news organization with a valk? Yes, QM-69 is literally laughable to me. Literally because I seriously did laugh... then cringed as it was discussed. Everything about it is silly from the presentation in the episode to the sloppiness in determing what it actually is. Gamlin is good... but he's no QM-69er? C'mon, seriously, they just tried to quantify Basara's piloting ability as if the children watching it weren't able to determine already that Basara was a good pilot. Ugh, gag. I wonder if Hibiki could QM-69? Does Max QM-69 before he eats breakfast in the morning? Yeah, difficult maneuvers I'm fine with so long as they're presented as such and not mystified. I guess it's like Tony Hawk's 720. The only problem is, this is war, not an exhibition. Wait, is it war? Heck, in Mac7 if you got beat you just ended up in a coma that you would probably recover from. No one dies because we have fluffy love rays of Basara energy to tuck us in at night... shudder.

This isn't an issue about science so much as it is an issue of us having to believe what we're watching. When things get outlandish we can't take it seriously. Mac7 is constantly outlandish and can nearly never be taken seriously. Even the relationships are silly at best. Oh that Basara! There he goes again! Aw Mylene, she's so conflicted. Go Gubaba go! Repeat ad nauseum (sp?)

MacII deserves similar levels of beratement though. I think most of that has been stated by others in this thread already.

Now, really, tell us how you really feel about M7. Don't hold back.

Seriously dude, you're way too worked up over a cartoon show. You sound almost like A1.

"Thou doth protesth too much."

vinnie

[sketchley]

Wasn't the VF-19 (and it's derivitives, VF-19F, P, and S) written and portrayed in both Macross 7 and Plus as being superior to all preceeding VFs? Doesn't Gamlin and co in Diamond Force pilot the VF-17, which predates the development of the VF-19? In other words, yes Basara does have good piloting skills, but shouldn't we also consider the machine used as potentially inhibiting the actual abilities of the pilot?

In addition, as great a pilot as Gamlin is, look how easily he gets distracted (at least in the first few episodes) by Basara's appearance on the battlefield? I translate his ease of distraction, and obsession about the appearance of a civilian VF as making Gamlin a lesser pilot. If anything, the CO of Diamond Force is the *real* skilled pilot (he retains his focus despite the Fire Valkyrie), and Gamlin is the focus because his angst, conflict, and character growth experienced in the series makes for more interesting storytelling.

[jenius]

Now, really, tell us how you really feel about M7. Don't hold back.

Seriously dude, you're way too worked up over a cartoon show. You sound almost like A1.

"Thou doth protesth too much."

Mocking and chiding a cartoon hardly signifies being worked up. I wouldn't be saying things like "heck" and "fluffy love rays" if I was physically angry. Yeah, I berated it, but it reads as humorous to me. If it strikes you as a frothy attack then perhaps thou doth defend too much. Besides, I watched the whole thing and I when I sent BigWest a letter requesting they refund me for the portion of my life they wasted they simply ignored me. The nerve!

In addition, as great a pilot as Gamlin is, look how easily he gets distracted (at least in the first few episodes) by Basara's appearance on the battlefield?

Yeah, there goes Project M making brilliant sense again. "Should we tell our real soldiers about the clown mech that will dance around during the battles?" "Nah, they won't find that distracting, it shouldn't be a problem." I don't think we should bump Gamlin too much for his distraction. His duty is partly to protect civilians and here one is out in space endangering himself and potentially others with the distraction he's creating.

Edited November 16, 2006 by jenius

[Lightning]

-snip-

Does Max QM-69 before he eats breakfast in the morning?...

-snip-

didn't you know? Max QM-69's ALL the time baby!

[Keith]

Basara was not involved. Ray was. As an ex ace pilot with pacifist tendencies, it is only natural that Ray mediated Project M. The Fire Valkyrie is not Basara, it's the military's. He only pilots it because they let him and why it was so hush hush from the rest of the fleet. Fact is Basara wanted nothing to do with the military and would have probably refused to pilot the valkyrie if he knew its source. Ray recognized Basara's passion and talent as both a singer and pilot. That made him the perfect candidate for Project M.

Is it so hard to believe that if battroids existed that there would exist difficult to execute maneuvers? After all they exist for jet fighters. QM-69 is a battroid maneuver that one to accelerate while performings rolls and strafing action at once, subjecting the pilot to intense stress.

I just finished the series again and damn if it doesn't hit the spot for me everytime. When everyone has succcumbed from the spiritia drain, and Basara starts singing again while in his visions, Exedol said it best, "And still, Basara sings."

And while we are talking about science, if I don't have a problem with it I'm not sure why everyone else does. I'm a practicing research scientist for almost a decade now as well as plenty of degrees to follow after my name. I'm pretty sure that very few members on this board come close to the level of research and science training I have.

vinnie

You now have my official seal of approval as a Macross 7 fan!