Why macross fans thinks Macross 2 is worse than Macross 7?

[eugimon]

I've heard this arguement that Japanese are somehow culturally disinclined to sequels or continuing sequels, but this really takes a simplistic view of their popular culture.

Just because their television shows tend to be self contained ( a set number of episodes, encompasing one story arc) does not mean there are not episodic, or continuing stories.

There are several high profile series/movies that have spawned on sequels or continuing seasons that featured the same cast of characters in continuing adventures. Also, there are several well known series that just keep going on and on, year after year, building on story arc after arc, featuring the same characters.

Personally, I find the notion that somehow Japanese people are so abstract in their thinking to betray more of a romantacized and simplistic view of Japanese culture than anything else.

[Zinjo]

But they do: http://www.skyperfectv.co.jp/en/ And that's just one provider.

That's a Japanese concept, not limited to Kawamori. Japan is the most high-tech country for a reason.

I wasn't discussing Japan I was discussing Kawamori specifically.

No. In general, Japanese want to see stories.

And no other culture wants this?

If the story is completed, and there is nothing more to tell, and continuing the story means recycling old plot points, then people will become disinterested very fast.

I agree that this point is far too simplistic a view of Japanese culture. As pointed out already the early Gundam franchise disproves that theory somewhat.

The inclusion of Fokker, Jenius, and Miria has a lot more to do with more of their story being able to be told, than including them for their brand-name recognition.

Not so, in an interview with SK it was asked why he brought back the Jenius' and his answer was as I stated. He really didn't have any particular family in mind for the role of Mylene's parents until that point.

Mac Zero is another instance where seeing Fokker was superfluous to the story, in that it could have been any pilot testing the VF-0S. It didn't have to be Roy in particular, but it was. The story centered around Shin, Sara, Mao and the AFOS, everyone else were more supporting characters and stories. It was nice to see some back story on Roy, but if your assertion is absolute then why bother including him, as you say, his story has been told and now they are "recycling old plot points"...

[sketchley]

You cannot discuss Kawamori without understanding his cultural background. Ergo: walk a mile in his shoes. I agree that he isn't a stubborn old man who insists on reusing his old designs, but that makes sense, because it keeps him employed.

Yes, perhaps my posts above were too simplistic, or perhaps they were subtly complex, being misunderstood. So, I'll simplify them here:

a) mostly refering to live action dramas

b) Japanese like new things. New stories = good.

c) if old characters from old stories can have more of their story be told = good.

d) there are exceptions to every rule*

Now, if you still believe there are mistakes in this assertation, as I am in no way claiming it to be fact, but only a lowly gross generalization, I encourage you to study Japanese culture, history, and language at a major in university, and to come and live in Japan for the past 3 1/2 + years, like I have. I by no way claim that I am an authority on these matters, but am merely stating my opinion and personal perception of them. The main fact that I am asserting, however, is that Japan does not equal the country/state/culture/ethnic group of where you are from, if it is not Japan, and to assume that Japan is equal to your country/state/culture/ethnic group contributes drastically to misunderstandings, such as 'why is Macross 7 popular, when people in my country/state/culture/ethnic group generally opinionate that it isn't.'

And no other culture wants this?

I hope this is a rhetorical question, as to answer the question honestly would start a cultural/ethnic flame war.

* statement was implied, not directly stated. "Moderation in all things, including the act of moderation."

Edited November 7, 2006 by sketchley

[Phyrox]

So yeah, worry; not that more 7 or II will be produced, but that no more Macross will be produced period.

This doesn't seem worrisome, this seems ideal. I like Macross, I like DYRL, since then the Macross name hasn't produced anything really worthy of fandom besides M+, and that apparently didn't even start out as Macross.

I am a big fan of putting things out to pasture before they overstay their welcome. With the fairly boring M2, the inane M7, and the flashy but forgetable M0 I'm not at all sad to say Macross is done. Its best years are behind it, which happens to all good things.

[Zinjo]

This doesn't seem worrisome, this seems ideal. I like Macross, I like DYRL, since then the Macross name hasn't produced anything really worthy of fandom besides M+, and that apparently didn't even start out as Macross.

I am a big fan of putting things out to pasture before they overstay their welcome. With the fairly boring M2, the inane M7, and the flashy but forgetable M0 I'm not at all sad to say Macross is done. Its best years are behind it, which happens to all good things.

Maybe, or maybe it simply needs a fresh perspective. SK and his Studio Nue group have had exclusive control over the franchise for over the past decade and that can be a good thing as much as a bad thing. Another post already pointed out how the Star Wars fanbase feels that George Lucas has lost touch with his own creation, the same could be speculated of SK and Studio Nue....

With Anime becoming more and more an international commodity, what works in Japan may not work in the rest of the world. Hence Sketchly's point that Macross 7 was a hit in Japan and has been completely panned by international distributors. How Mac Plus is largely forgotten in Japan, whereas in North America is usually listed in the top 3 of any Macross fan.

Personally, I suspect the biggest detriment to the Macross franchise is all the legal woes surrounding Big West and Tatsunoko. Should Big West win the rights to the series' story they'd have to reanimate SDFM to claim sole ownership of the show.

Not such a horrible idea, since it would allow them to relegate the original series as a dramatized TV program about SW1 in the franchise canon.

Edited November 7, 2006 by Zinjo

[Hikuro]

I'm gonna keep this nice and sweet.......

Macross 7 - Shoji Kawamori

Macross II - No Shoji Kawamori

Result - Macross with Kawamori do better then Macross with no Kawamori.

[danth]

Since people are mentioning Macross Plus, I'd like to say how boring I thought it was. The characters were flatter than Basara. I hated Isamu and Guld, and I can barely remember the names of the dumb girls. I thought the flashbacks were retarded melodrama for melodrama's sake, too. Ooh, a mysterious past. Did Guld rape Myung? Who cares! When everything you know about a character is revealed through flashbacks and exposition, something's wrong.

And speaking of Macross 7, I've been listening to the music today, and holy god is it wonderful. To dismiss it as bubblegum pop music is to reveal ones woeful lack of taste. I've heard more good songs from Macross 7 alone than I've heard from American bands since Macross 7 was made. (I've never been a huge fan of American music)

[Roy Focker]

Macross Plus is held high because it is a mecha-freak's porn. I think a large portion of Macross fans are fans because of the mecha and the best mecha scenes are in Plus. Macross 7 is disliked because it is departure but it still is fun and feel like Macross but some fans are just so turned off cause doesn't meet their expections.

[Jin_Kune_Do]

I like Macross II more...simple because the general "feel" of it was more towards SDFM, im not saying its a good, actually alot of it was pretty boring, it just didnt have that "feel" that made you wanna know what the heck is gonna happen next.

The thing about Macross II that wins me over is that the combat scenes are cool. The ship to ship battles and the Valks fighting against overwhelming odds is where, i think, it gets the credit.

Okay now to M7. Yes....the story of M7 is good on this part...it sucked. It sucked so bad, that the entire time i was watching all 1000+ episodes made me more mad and annoyed. Really...come on, most of us grew up watching the old Robotech Macross Sage when we was kids right? So we all, mostly, got hooked on Macross because of that "feel"....now here come M7....and it comes with a Guitar as a control stick....really? Valks with boobs and whatelse? Using music as a weapon?...drafting IDOL wanna-bes as Fighter Pilots?...

Anyways....for me, all these things lays so much in contrast of the rest of the Macross series, that its like...i donno...wrong. For me, i think Macross 2 is closer to Macross feel.

- Jin

[Mr March]

And speaking of Macross 7, I've been listening to the music today, and holy god is it wonderful. To dismiss it as bubblegum pop music is to reveal ones woeful lack of taste.

To categorize the Macross 7 music as anything BUT bubblegum pop music is to be in denial. The categorization is accurate and made without any value judegment either for or against the music. Any negative connotation associated with the term "bubblegum pop" is incidental and secondary to the point. Macross 7 was sold largely on the attraction of it's extremely poppy, catchy music. But like all such like music, it has a very short shelf life and finds little success post-craze (again, apt comparisons to The Spice Girls is an appropriate analogy). It also has nothing to do with my personal preferences for music, though the defensive, knee-jerk attack was amusing.

[pfunk]

i liked Mac plus, story and mecha

[Noyhauser]

Maybe, or maybe it simply needs a fresh perspective. SK and his Studio Nue group have had exclusive control over the franchise for over the past decade and that can be a good thing as much as a bad thing. Another post already pointed out how the Star Wars fanbase feels that George Lucas has lost touch with his own creation, the same could be speculated of SK and Studio Nue....

With Anime becoming more and more an international commodity, what works in Japan may not work in the rest of the world. Hence Sketchly's point that Macross 7 was a hit in Japan and has been completely panned by international distributors. How Mac Plus is largely forgotten in Japan, whereas in North America is usually listed in the top 3 of any Macross fan.

Personally, I suspect the biggest detriment to the Macross franchise is all the legal woes surrounding Big West and Tatsunoko. Should Big West win the rights to the series' story they'd have to reanimate SDFM to claim sole ownership of the show.

Not such a horrible idea, since it would allow them to relegate the original series as a dramatized TV program about SW1 in the franchise canon.

How terribly ironic this whole post is. Your idea of a "new direction" would be to make a remake of SDF or for many people a gritty war scenario that would probably look very similar to macross plus or SDF. How boring. Compared to that other long running japanese mecha series, Macross looks dynamic and interesting. Compare SDF, to M7, to Plus, to Zero, and its pretty apparent to me that there are quite significant differences between all of them, where lately Gundam looks pretty stale to say the least (with the possible exception of igloo).

[Penguin]

Any true Macross fan is a RUOTMOMO*, not a BARBOMTAOS**. We should all be rigourously proving how there is nothing wrong with any Macross series.

Seriously, though, I've enjoyed every Macross production to date.

SDF Macross: Great characters, great drama, great mecha... great series.

DYRL: Great animation. Characters a little thin, but a fun "abbreviated" version of the story.

Flashback 2012: The "bookend" pieces featuring "An Angel's Paints" are, strangely, among my favourite pieces of Macross animation.

Macross II: I was thrilled at finally getting some more Macross, coming as it did just as I was discovering the non-Robotech form. Loved the mecha and the music (although why in the English dub they substituted some Ethel Mermann sound-alike for the last half of Ishtar's big song at the end, I'll never know), though the story was brief and the characters not too enduring.

Macross Plus: Mecha porn indeed. Love the battles. Love the fact that the characters are deeply flawed and not particularly lovable. Adore the music. I have a Yoko Kanno shrine in my apartment. Well, not really... but you get the picture.

Macross Seven: Thought it could do with about 15 fewer episodes and a lot less battle repetition, but the characters were different and interesting. Love Fire Bomber, especially Mylene's songs, though if I never hear "Planet Dance" or "Totsugeki Love Heart" again, it will be too soon. Loved Dynamite 7 too.

Macross Zero: More mecha porn. The dogfight with the F-14s in the first episode totally suckered me in.

Naturally, everyone's entitled to their opinion (by definition ), but I have to say I don't get the vitriol some people display for some of these series. It's not like Kawamori "betrayed us all" by taking the franchise in directions we might not like, 'cause frankly he didn't owe us anything in the first place.

*Righteous Upholder Of The Myth Of Macross Omnipotence

**Boring And Repetitive Basher Of Macross Two And/Or Seven

[Mr March]

Any true Macross fan is a RUOTMOMO*, not a BARBOMTAOS**. We should all be rigourously proving how there is nothing wrong with any Macross series.

Naturally, everyone's entitled to their opinion (by definition ), but I have to say I don't get the vitriol some people display for some of these series. It's not like Kawamori "betrayed us all" by taking the franchise in directions we might not like, 'cause frankly he didn't owe us anything in the first place.

*Righteous Upholder Of The Myth Of Macross Omnipotence

**Boring And Repetitive Basher Of Macross Two And/Or Seven

A positive/negative opinion to a given piece of entertainment is not so easily understood, even by the person forming the opinion themselves. If one can enjoy all Macross without a problem, then good for them. For the rest of us, surrendering our discriminating tastes would be far worse and so we pick and choose what we like. Besides, ultimately we are consumers and we are owed something when we pay money for it. That's pretty much the whole point.

[justvinnie]

Youtube is great. I've forgotten how fun M7 is. You know, now that I'm watching an ep a day, it's even better. Doesn't seem too repetitive. And the music is unforgettable, catchy as hell.

vinnie

[JB0]

Youtube is great. I've forgotten how fun M7 is. You know, now that I'm watching an ep a day, it's even better. Doesn't seem too repetitive. And the music is unforgettable, catchy as hell.

vinnie

LISTEN TO MY SONG!

[Jin_Kune_Do]

LISTEN TO MY SONG!

Oh no... not again...damm i can hear it all again....when will Basara stop singing....when? oh dear god make it stop

- Jin

[JB0]

Oh no... not again...damm i can hear it all again....when will Basara stop singing....when? oh dear god make it stop

- Jin

Probably as soon as you let him finish his song.

[Zinjo]

A positive/negative opinion to a given piece of entertainment is not so easily understood, even by the person forming the opinion themselves. If one can enjoy all Macross without a problem, then good for them. For the rest of us, surrendering our discriminating tastes would be far worse and so we pick and choose what we like. Besides, ultimately we are consumers and we are owed something when we pay money for it. That's pretty much the whole point.

Well said, I can think of nothing to add...

[Keith]

I can't wait until it's the future and everyone pilots planes & drive cars with Guitars. You guys will feel soooo stupid!

[Zinjo]

I can't wait until it's the future and everyone pilots planes & drive cars with Guitars. You guys will feel soooo stupid!

As opposed to feeling stupid expecting it now???

Edited November 8, 2006 by Zinjo

[JB0]

I can't wait until it's the future and everyone pilots planes & drive cars with Guitars. You guys will feel soooo stupid!

I don't think so.

I am SO gonna use a keytar. GO RAY!

...

Or did Ray use a "standard" keyboard?

Edited November 8, 2006 by JB0

[masterqq]

Oh no... not again...damm i can hear it all again....when will Basara stop singing....when? oh dear god make it stop

Oh man.. you start to sound like Gigil...

BTM, I'm OK with M7 too..

[Morpheus]

Well, I liked them both. As I remember there are several Mac II song in Mac 7 like the one performed by the Jamming Bird squadron (or a band...).

However, somehow I cannot accept the concept of a supernatural monster in realistic mecha series like Macross.

[kensei]

The only reason why I like M7 is because it kinda completes the Macross universe or rather continues it.

I like the mecha and the music, with a few exceptions.

I do at times have problems with the characters, and the pace as well. But in the end after ep 20 it started to get good.

[sketchley]

This talk of guitar control sticks got me thinking - is it really Basara who is flying?

What got me thinking is remembering the scene inside of City 7 (after it was kidnapped by the Varuta) when Miria in her VF-1 and Basara in his VF-19 Kai are persuing a Varuta VF - Miria chastises Basara for his piss-poor flying abilities in a city.

Why would this guy have piss-poor flying skills, when he is uber god at dodging? Because he isn't really flying the VF-19 Kai! He's merely inputing directions (go here, turn left there, etc.), and the VF-19 Kai's AI pilot does the actual flying.

We know the Ghost X-9 project was successful (many of them were seen in VF-X2,) and that it's AI chip is especially good at being defensive. Why couldn't they have stuck the AI chip into Basara's VF-19 Kai? His poor city flying can be explained away by him getting in the way of the AI's flying - he, being human, overreacted, and made countless course corrections; the AI being set up to respond to pilot directions above all else... plus strip the AI from all connections from weapons (they can only be fired by human action,) and reduce the manueverability of the VF-19 Kai to a level that won't turn it's pilot into paste along the sides of the cockpit, and you've got one powerful uber-dodging, yet easy to fly VF, that any joe-rockstar can operate.

[Penguin]

A positive/negative opinion to a given piece of entertainment is not so easily understood, even by the person forming the opinion themselves. If one can enjoy all Macross without a problem, then good for them. For the rest of us, surrendering our discriminating tastes would be far worse and so we pick and choose what we like. Besides, ultimately we are consumers and we are owed something when we pay money for it. That's pretty much the whole point.

A salient point, Mr. March. Just for the record, the first part of my post was a supposedly comedic reference to the Marvel Comics no-prizes of the 80s and 90s, which apparently fell flat upon its face, proving that not only am I a geek among geeks, I am an old geek among geeks.

[Dangard Ace]

A salient point, Mr. March. Just for the record, the first part of my post was a supposedly comedic reference to the Marvel Comics no-prizes of the 80s and 90s, which apparently fell flat upon its face, proving that not only am I a geek among geeks, I am an old geek among geeks.

What? Your no prize is already in the mail. Didn't you receive it yet?

[Penguin]

What? Your no prize is already in the mail. Didn't you receive it yet?

I actually am an honoured no-prize winner, but from the earlier days before Marvel got sick of morons who didn't get the joke asking where their no-prize was and started sending out empty envelopes. So all I have are my pride and the Uncanny X-Men issue where they printed my letter... buried somewhere in all my comics boxes so I can never find it.

[Keith]

Nope, the 19 Kai is not a ghost fighter, and Basara truly is piloting. Milia was chastizing him on his flying inbetween buildings, i.e. something he hadn't done much of since he's been used to wide open space. You also have to account for the fact that Milia is a bit overbearing at that point in her life, and tends to mother everyone around her.

[Mr March]

A salient point, Mr. March. Just for the record, the first part of my post was a supposedly comedic reference to the Marvel Comics no-prizes of the 80s and 90s, which apparently fell flat upon its face, proving that not only am I a geek among geeks, I am an old geek among geeks.

Fair enough.

[Zinjo]

This talk of guitar control sticks got me thinking - is it really Basara who is flying?

What got me thinking is remembering the scene inside of City 7 (after it was kidnapped by the Varuta) when Miria in her VF-1 and Basara in his VF-19 Kai are persuing a Varuta VF - Miria chastises Basara for his piss-poor flying abilities in a city.

Why would this guy have piss-poor flying skills, when he is uber god at dodging? Because he isn't really flying the VF-19 Kai! He's merely inputing directions (go here, turn left there, etc.), and the VF-19 Kai's AI pilot does the actual flying.

We know the Ghost X-9 project was successful (many of them were seen in VF-X2,) and that it's AI chip is especially good at being defensive. Why couldn't they have stuck the AI chip into Basara's VF-19 Kai? His poor city flying can be explained away by him getting in the way of the AI's flying - he, being human, overreacted, and made countless course corrections; the AI being set up to respond to pilot directions above all else... plus strip the AI from all connections from weapons (they can only be fired by human action,) and reduce the manueverability of the VF-19 Kai to a level that won't turn it's pilot into paste along the sides of the cockpit, and you've got one powerful uber-dodging, yet easy to fly VF, that any joe-rockstar can operate.

NOW THAT makes more sense to me than a civillian rock musician, for some inexplicable reason, being able to out fly trained, seasoned, career military pilots...

I personally always felt that the complex VF fighters required computer assisted control and that the better the pilot got the less it was needed. That was part of the unseen differences between the VF-#A series and VF-#S series', was either the level of computer control or the ability to modify the amount of computer assist.

[Sumdumgai]

Annoying Reporter vs Annoying Rock Singer = Annoying Rock Singer wins (thank you stockholm syndrome)

The only things I liked from Macross II were Ishtar and the opening theme.

I just took M7 as a different approach to Macross, with those strong parody elements that Kawamori and crew were originally intending for SDF Macross. All the camp, the repetitiveness that's so common to Japanese humor, the 80's breed hero (Basara), the clichés, the stereotype parodies, the sentai parodies, and even the self parodies... I cringed a lot, but enjoyed it overall. Loved the music, although I started to get sick of Planet Dance.

MII, I couldn't stand Hibiki. I hated the idealistic hypocrite reporter as main character thing. Yeah, he evolved, but I wanted to stomp that character. Basara I only felt like throttling or hitting him in the head with a rock. I also didn't like the mecha design, the whole zentraedi with culture and their own singers thing, and that whole thing about the Alus (which I vaguely remember as being unsolved, I haven't watched it in a loooong time). I gave it a chance and rewatched it a few times, but still hated it.

Best things to come from Macross 7 besides the music, backstory, military mecha, battle section, the picture of the Jenius family, and Emilia Oh yeah, Emilia~

[eugimon]

heh, all this mac II talk sent me to youtube to see if I would care any more for it now that I'm older... nope.

while the mecha designs were decent enough, ultimately the story and the characters just killed it for me.

[justvinnie]

Max indicates that Basara actually flies and is quite proficient at doing so, though no where near the level the former in his prime.

vinnie