Why macross fans thinks Macross 2 is worse than Macross 7?

[Final Vegeta]

I just finished the series again and damn if it doesn't hit the spot for me everytime. When everyone has succcumbed from the spiritia drain, and Basara starts singing again while in his visions, Exedol said it best, "And still, Basara sings."

Yes, that was one of the great moments of anime. An epic and subtle non-violent expression of might.

And while we are talking about science, if I don't have a problem with it I'm not sure why everyone else does. I'm a practicing research scientist for almost a decade now as well as plenty of degrees to follow after my name. I'm pretty sure that very few members on this board come close to the level of research and science training I have.

When in the real world there are projects like the gay bomb, one shouldn't fuss about Macross 7

I found something while I was checking Star Wars on wikipedia:

A concept borrowed from Flash Gordon involved a fairytale technology that had an element of traditional magic. This concept was originally developed by H.G. Wells who arguably invented the "science fiction" genre with his first novel, The Time Machine. Wells believed the Industrial Revolution had quietly destroyed the idea that fairytale magic might be real. Thus, he found that plausibility was required to allow myth to work properly, using the Industrial Era to substitute the original myths: time machines instead of magic carpets, Martians as dragons and scientists as wizards. Wells, however, called his new genre "scientific fantasia".

So basically, by its inception, sci-fi is is fantasy where magic is done by machines. Macross 7 fits the canon since Basara still uses machines (I think it was called the sound energy converter).

Do you think Spiritia exists?

Do you think you can take energy from singing and fire a nuclear cannon?

Do you think you can create a human-alike life form who flies and lives through space

and feeds from other people's spirits?

Do you think there are large monsters who fires cannon from the mouths?

I think people are not supposed to question what are simply cultural concepts used as a foundation of a fictional work. If spiritia really existed, then Kawamori would have posed himself as a prophet a la Ron Hubbard, and would not have been credited as a "creator" but as a "discoverer".

To be exact, from what I understand the energy didn't come from singing but from the expression of emotions, "vitalistic force" or whatever. Emotions as an empowering force is a typical Japanese cliché found even in many mecha anime.

FV

[Sevket_Erhat]

I don't know what you think but Macross 7 Dynamite is the worst Macross ever. It has an impossible to understand story like Zero and a scene with a woman trying to rape Mylene ??? Give me a break

Edited November 16, 2006 by Sevket_Erhat

[sketchley]

I think people are not supposed to question what are simply cultural concepts used as a foundation of a fictional work. If spiritia really existed, then Kawamori would have posed himself as a prophet a la Ron Hubbard, and would not have been credited as a "creator" but as a "discoverer".

To be exact, from what I understand the energy didn't come from singing but from the expression of emotions, "vitalistic force" or whatever. Emotions as an empowering force is a typical Japanese cliché found even in many mecha anime.

FV

Agreed about the other stuff. As time passes, and new things are learned/discovered/experienced, stories and the way that stories are told change.

As for spiritia in the real world - when I first heard of spiritia, I thought it was merely a renamed version of qi (æ°—), something that has been around for 3,000 years, more or less. Though, with further viewing of Macross 7 (and other Macross shows that have spiritia,) that view has changed somewhat - spiritia is similar to qi, but different from qi.

I think qi could be described as life energy, whereas spiritia is more akin to motivation energy. (I want to say motivational energy, but that makes it sound like it is something that is needed prior to doing something, when by appearances, it is the opposite: the motivation to do something creates spiritia.) The interesting thing is that the Japanese word for motivation, ã‚„ã‚‹æ°—, is a combination of "to do" + "energy" (as I'm losing my English, somewhat, it was the word that came to mind to describe spiritia. Funny... needed a language translator... )

So yes, Kawamori didn't discover spiritia, he created it - but it is grounded in Japanese, if not Asian, concepts. Maybe that's why it takes on 'magical' properties for Occidental viewers?

[Keith]

To put it more specifically. Spiritia is life energy, while Anima Spiritia is a specific type created by strong emotion that's capable of rejuvinating the energy of others.

As for Dynamite, it's still far better than Macross II, and sometimes women try to rape other women, get over it!

[sketchley]

So, you're saying that spiritia = qi? In other words, the producers of Macross merely extrapolated and embellished a concept that's been around for thousands of years?

[Keith]

Watch the movie, the intro speaks about the wave motion energy that flows through out the universe, and is created by all living things. The Protodevelin go as far as to detail that different types of people/living things generate different types of spirtia. The whole existence of the Protodevelin in this universe was due to the Protoculture running experiments on tapping energy sources from different dimensions.

Assumedly, the Protodevelin exist in a dimension comprised entirely of energy, though the details of whether it's all sentient energy, or whether the Protodevelin exist as seperate entities because that energy was tapped & placed into seperate entities is unclear. What is clear, is that like all living things, life has to feed on other life to sustain itself, and being pure energy beings, the Protodevelin feed off of similar energy sources. i.e. living things = batteries.

Anima Spiritia appears to be too strong a wattage for them to stomach, though as shown by Sivil, with enough effort they can adapt to it. Being living things, the Protodevelin give off their own spiritia as well, the solution that Basara found being to show them the ability to generate their own renewable energ source, so they wouldn't have to feed off of others.

[bandit29]

Ugh great here we go again with the "I need to write a 1000 word essay to explain Macross 7". I'm surprised the old argument of "you don't understand M7" hasn't come up.

It's a damn anime show and a shitty one at that. Spongebob is better written and definitely more entertaining lol

[jenius]

Okay, does that mean Spongebob is also better than MacrossII though? I think I'd take MacII of Spongebob but Spongebob over Mac7.

[Zinjo]

Ugh great here we go again with the "I need to write a 1000 word essay to explain Macross 7". I'm surprised the old argument of "you don't understand M7" hasn't come up.

It's a damn anime show and a shitty one at that. Spongebob is better written and definitely more entertaining lol

See any list of Keith quotes, it'll pop up at least once or twenty times!

[Mr March]

Ugh great here we go again with the "I need to write a 1000 word essay to explain Macross 7". I'm surprised the old argument of "you don't understand M7" hasn't come up.

It's a damn anime show and a shitty one at that. Spongebob is better written and definitely more entertaining lol

ROFLMAO :)

[Warmaker]

...

...

...

I still think Macross VII (or "7" for Roman numerically disinclined ) is g...

Oh, nevermind!

[Keith]

Spongebob ain't got nuthin' on Angry Beavers. And if I used too many words for you, please feel free to go watch spongebob instead of reading.

[azrael]

... mkay.... *raises hand*

All in favor of exiting this topic gracefully with more Spongebob jokes, say "Aye".

[kamikaze_kamujin]

It's a damn anime show and a shitty one at that. Spongebob is better written and definitely more entertaining lol

Okay, does that mean Spongebob is also better than MacrossII though? I think I'd take MacII of Spongebob but Spongebob over Mac7.

I dont know the seriousness of your posts but I do think Spongebob is better than Macross 7. I obviously dont like Spongebob but it's better for kids than Macross 7 is for kids or adults. At least it's for kids and you know you dont have to sit to watch it, and it doesnt crack out ideas and then add to them explanations to unsuccesfully give them a sense of less stupidity, which actually makes them worse. Macross 7 carries the Macross name, and you sit to watch a story for adults and get a story for kids and spoils a good story. After Macross 7 fans expecting a serious story wont ever know what you are going to get, because they are going to try to target the story for the fans created by Macross 7 too, and therefore dumbing the story down

Edited November 18, 2006 by kamikaze_kamujin

[sketchley]

Recently, I've been rewatching the series - at a rate of about one every couple of days. I am quite impressed at the way the story is developing. By this, I don't mean the war story, the spirtia story, the SES development story. No, I mean the story's of the characters.

Perhaps it's because I am living in Japan, but the story - especially Mylene's - takes on whole new dimensions that, say someone who is only grounded in the North American, English culture, cannot appreciate. Also, Basara's jerky behaviour does explain why Mylene seeks the security of Gamlin, but at the same time, as Basara is the 'bad boy' who shirks authority, it's understandable why she's attracted to him.

Sure, the start of the Varuta war has had some interesting developments, but the main reason I'm interested in the show is the characters in the band (aside from Basara. He's a rather inaccessible character.)

[Ali Sama]

I met the mecha designer for macross 2 at a con in los angelos a long time ago. It was when the exosquad robotech toys came out and the macross 2 comic was out in the usa. He seemed really young.

[azrael]

I met the mecha designer for macross 2 at a con in los angelos a long time ago. It was when the exosquad robotech toys came out and the macross 2 comic was out in the usa. He seemed really young.

Which one?

Jun Okuda

Junichi Akutsu (BEE-Craft)

Kazumi Fujita

Koichi Ohata (MII mecha supervisor)

[jenius]

Okay, so it sounds like we need to add a new Mac7 defense:

"You can't possibly appreciate Mac7's depth because your feeble western mind can't possibly comprehend the greatness which is eastern culture."

One man's crap is another man's treasure. The characters, their interactions, their development are all very important but they should accentuate the rest of the storyline, not be a crutch for it. In fact, I think this is another good MacII vs Mac7 pointer. In MacII the characters are flat, they never develop, what happens with them seems forced or awkward at times, and basically they don't really help the story. In MacII it's much better to focus on the action, politics, and bigger picture (not that I'm saying there's a whole lot there either). In Mac7 it's essentially the opposite. It's better if you focus more on the over-done and overblown characters than the larger events that are transpiring. Put the whole "vampire" issue behind you and just look at Mylene, she's conflicted again!

Edited November 18, 2006 by jenius

[Ali Sama]

Which one?

Jun Okuda

Junichi Akutsu (BEE-Craft)

Kazumi Fujita

Koichi Ohata (MII mecha supervisor)

Koichi Ohata he wasl also talking about genocyber and how he created the mecha for that.

[sketchley]

Jenus, let it go. Not only have you repeated your stance numerous times, you are attempting, and badly I might add, to recycle the posts of others. In fact, I'd say that you are crossing the line into trolling. I'll summerize your position here:

"I like mecha porn. Macross 7 isn't mecha porn. I don't like Macross 7. Macross II is mecha porn. I like Macross II."

As for characters vs. plot: character's make or break a story. If it doesn't feel like the characters are directing, guiding, and/or controlling the story, and instead it feels like the plot is being forced onto them, then the story, frankly, sucks.

[jenius]

Jenus, let it go. Not only have you repeated your stance numerous times, you are attempting, and badly I might add, to recycle the posts of others.

I don't understand this criticism, it may be valid but whose posts am I recycling? Are you saying I'm just restating and rephrasing other people's posts? I'm genuinely curious as to how you meant this?

I'll summerize your position here:

"I like mecha porn. Macross 7 isn't mecha porn. I don't like Macross 7. Macross II is mecha porn. I like Macross II."

I've posted several times in this forum, I don't think I've ever stated once "I like Macross II." What I have said is Macross II is slightly less craptastic than Macross7 (psst, look at the title of this thread, I'd say that's pretty much in line with what ought to be being discussed here).

Ya know, I'm okay with being called a troll. I don't exactly find it fair though that you've posted more frequently in this thread than I have yet since my opinion opposes your own I'm deemed a troll. I have not gotten off topic or made any personal attacks (in my estimation). The nature of discussions such as these is that there are differing opinions and both sides should be free to make their opinions known. If you feel I'm restating the same argument over and over again then I would respectfully disagree. If you feel you are free to bring something new and good to the table about Mac7 then why shouldn't I also be free to point out one more area where Mac7 sucks? If you want an all positivity anima spiritia orgy thread go make one, this ain't it.

[sketchley]

"You can't possibly appreciate Mac7's depth because your feeble western mind can't possibly comprehend the greatness which is eastern culture."

Not only is this badly paraphrased, but it is written in a highly inflamatory mannor, and twisted into an unintended, and offensive meaning - a meaning that wasn't present in the original.

I may be reading more into it than intended, as I am losing some of my English abilities, but IMHO that statement is both a form of trolling, and a recycling of other's comments.

I agree that differing opinions are welcome, and valued in these kinds of discussions, but inflammatory and offensive language are not. It is one thing to say that you disagree (and why), and it is an entirely different thing to say that what someone else likes is something that negatively reflects on the person who expressed their appreciation for it. In other words, tone down the language, please and thank you.

Edited November 19, 2006 by sketchley

[Zinjo]

Sure, the start of the Varuta war has had some interesting developments, but the main reason I'm interested in the show is the characters in the band (aside from Basara. He's a rather inaccessible character.)

THAT has been the only real redeeming quality for Mac 7 (as well as the Miyataki capship designs), the characterizations are vintage Studio Nue, one of the aspects that made SDFM great, the premise and development outside of those stories left me completely flat!

Not only is this badly paraphrased, but it is written in a highly inflamatory mannor, and twisted into an unintended, and offensive meaning - a meaning that wasn't present in the original.

I may be reading more into it than intended, as I am losing some of my English abilities, but IMHO that statement is both a form of trolling, and a recycling of other's comments.

On the contrary my friend, you have numerous times attempted to present yourself as some sort of Japanese expert and from that "seeming" pedestle you've put yourself on, have repeatedly stated that our opposing opinions are based on how we don't get it because we don't live there... Well that may be true in part, however our opinions are no less valid than any supporter of Macross 7, be they ones who understand the cultural roots of the show or not.

I agree that differing opinions are welcome, and valued in these kinds of discussions, but inflammatory and offensive language are not. It is one thing to say that you disagree (and why), and it is an entirely different thing to say that what someone else likes is something that negatively reflects on the person who expressed their appreciation for it. In other words, tone down the language, please and thank you.

I suggest both of you tone it down, dismissive comments like:

"I like mecha porn. Macross 7 isn't mecha porn. I don't like Macross 7. Macross II is mecha porn. I like Macross II."

...and it's derivatives, only invite responses like:

"You can't possibly appreciate Mac7's depth because your feeble western mind can't possibly comprehend the greatness which is eastern culture."

...and it's derivatives.

They are both veiled flames, hiding them in pleasant wording doesn't take away their dismissive and therefore combustable natures.

Opinions are relative and subjective and equally valid no matter what side of an issue you are on.

Make your points and agrue them on that basis alone please.

[jenius]

Not only is this badly paraphrased, but it is written in a highly inflamatory mannor, and twisted into an unintended, and offensive meaning - a meaning that wasn't present in the original.

Duly noted. It was indeed satire which by its nature can be quite insulting. I apologize. My intent was for more to find humor in the statement than insult but since it was your words being manipulated I could see where you would not find that funny at all.

For all others, if I write something that sounds vicious I was probably grinning when I did it. Let me know if I piss you off... my jokes are probably quite often only funny to myself. I hate certain toys, I hate certain shows, but I can't think of any reason why I'd hate someone else on a forum or strive to make them look like an ass... unless it seems fun at the time Christ, maybe I am a troll

Edit - Zinjo was writing at the same time as me and I'd just like to point something out:

They are both veiled flames, hiding them in pleasant wording doesn't take away their dismissive and therefore combustible natures.

I like that quote because of the way it carries the flame metaphor through to "combustible natures." Nice writing (and that's really just a compliment, nothing meant by it).

Edited November 19, 2006 by jenius

[Mr March]

I didn't think your response was quite as bad as all that jenius. Zinjo is right about sketchly's reply. It was patronizing and a weak attempt to rationalize critics of Macross 7 and marginalize their opinions. But when stuff like that happens, try to make them see how they come across rather than flaming in kind. Most people here mean well, even if sometimes posts comes across as overly abrasive.

Edited November 19, 2006 by Mr March

[danth]

Top 11 reasons why I like Macross 7 over Macross II:

11)Komilia

10)Character Development

9)Gamlin

8)VF-5000

7)Full Armor VF-11

6)Big-assed Speaker Missile

5)Sivil

4)Mylene

3)Awesome Music (Except "Power to the People" which is super gay)

2)Guitar flight-sticks

1)Mecha-titties

Seriously, am I the only one who likes crazy shiznit in my anime? That's what anime's for. If I want a story with no magic, well, I have real life for that. But when I watch anime, if there are no space demons or guitar-generated magical blasts, I want my money back.

Edited November 19, 2006 by danth

[kamikaze_kamujin]

If you want anime stories with magic there are thousands of it. Why to spoil a medium Sci Fi story which brought many people to like it because of that, with magic and fantasy. The rest of the canon macross stories have a superior grade of plausibility or realism than Macross 7, which made many people to like it because of that, and what they like was taken out from them with Macross 7. The minor thing they should have made it's treating Macross 7 as an alternative universe, if they were going to make a story for a new audience instead of a story for the original fans

Edited November 19, 2006 by kamikaze_kamujin

[Ali Sama]

If you want anime stories with magic there are thousands of it. Why to spoil a medium Sci Fi story which brought many people to like it because of that, with magic and fantasy. The rest of the canon macross stories have a superior grade of plausibility or realism than Macross 7, which made many people to like it because of that, and what they like was taken out from them with Macross 7. The minor thing they should have made it's treating Macross 7 as an alternative universe, if they were going to make a story for a new audience instead of a story for the original fans

high enough science can seem like magic. lol. there are alot of scifi sereis with magic elements in them. Star trek has a few of them. the Q being a primary example. Star wars has the force. etc.

[kamikaze_kamujin]

That's because the sci-fi term is widely missused. Not refering particulary to those shows, people just call Sci Fi to a story set on space no matter if it doesnt have science at all or if it contradicts science as a whole. then Why are they Science Fiction? Those shows you refered to (Star Trek and Star Wars) are "Mushy Sci Fi" the lowest level of realism in Sci Fi and which can also be considered Space Fantasy. Star Wars in particulary was defined by its creator as Space Fantasy in spite of some people calls it "Sci Fi". Macross 7 has more concepts which falls in the category of Mushy Sci Fi than SDF-Macross and some of them are just plain fantasy . Spiritia, Monsters, nuclear size energy cannon with no factible power source, and I'm not inventing them, take a look for example at the Kheper Realism scale for Grading science fiction for Realism. Macross 7 ruined any feel of reality the original could have

Edited November 19, 2006 by kamikaze_kamujin

[eugimon]

bah, not this tired retread arguement of "sci-fi" versus science fiction.

1. As stated before, any high enough level of tech will seem like magic.

2. there are plenty of naturally occuring forces that we can measure that we don't understand. It's the height of arrogance to say that because we currently do not have access to or understand a force that such a thing is "fantasy"

3. You have already accepted the concept of 50 ft tall giant humans ( biologically impossible) why is it so hard to accept other equally fantastical creations?

And finally, your posts makes no sense. Either Macross is "mushy sci-fi" or it isn't. Don't complain about something macross never tried to be.

[jenius]

Rather than relying on this sci fi magic argument, I think it's just the "feel" of the shows that's bothersome. The original Macross is gritty. People die, heck, the whole world nearly dies. When the Zentraedi shot someone they exploded. MacII is similar in this respect, Mac+ is similar in this respect, Mac7 strays far from it. There are a couple deaths in Mac7 but overall the atmosphere is far less foreboding. For me, when I first saw Gamlin die, I was ready to start accepting Mac7 into the Macross universe. It was totally poignant and was the FIRST time in the entire series where something truly unexpected and attention grabbing happened. Then what? He was magically resurrected in the next episode. "Don't worry kids, good guys don't die!" Nah, that ain't my Macross. Add that to the over-done Protodevlin designs and yikes. Again, MacII isn't much better in these terms but it does seem to show anguish a bit more in a time of crisis.

[kamikaze_kamujin]

If it's arrogance to say that because we currently do not have access to or understand a force that such a thing is "fantasy" it's equally stupid to believe anything it's possible or all the known knowledge we have is relative, in fact, there is a superior knowledge today than 100 years ago because most knowledge we have isnt relative. You dont use Einstein equations in regular day engineering mechanical physics, you use Newton's because they are accurate enough to describe the world in slow speed conditions. Einstein didnt relativize everything described before in physics, he just gave it a better form and he just talked about a few things like mass and time relativity. Now after that an undesired "everything is relative" side thinking got stronger that's wrong and ridiculous. BTW, I havent accepted the 50 feet concept per se, but I look foward the best knowledge the creators at the time can deliver. Dont tell me the monsters, Sivil and spiritia crap it's the same mushy tone than the SDF series because it just isnt, you just are being a Macross 7 fan in denial, anyone who isnt in fan mode with a very little common sense can tell that and the age rate different Macross 7 and the other macross stories have

[eugimon]

what are you talking about? do you bother to keep track of your own arguments?

first you blast mac 7 for having fantasy elements and not conforming to your snobby views on sci-fi, babbling on about how macross could have been sci-fi or whatever, now you're babbling on about einstein and relativity? What, did you stay up late last night watching the national geographic channel?

macross 7 takes ideas from macross and runs with it.. explores it further. maybe you don't like it, that's fine. But your pseudo-intellectual ranting about physics and fanboy-ism is just whiny and confusing.. but worst of all, they're tired retreads, endless parroting of other people's more insightful and better thought out comments.

BTW, I'm not a fan of macross 7 either, I just think it sucks less than macross II... which has nearly everything you dislike about macross 7. But then, mac II is a tired retread of macross and so I guess it makes sense why you would feel so strongly about it, since you're unable to have an original thought yourself.

[Ali Sama]

what are you talking about? do you bother to keep track of your own arguments?

first you blast mac 7 for having fantasy elements and not conforming to your snobby views on sci-fi, babbling on about how macross could have been sci-fi or whatever, now you're babbling on about einstein and relativity? What, did you stay up late last night watching the national geographic channel?

macross 7 takes ideas from macross and runs with it.. explores it further. maybe you don't like it, that's fine. But your pseudo-intellectual ranting about physics and fanboy-ism is just whiny and confusing.. but worst of all, they're tired retreads, endless parroting of other people's more insightful and better thought out comments.

BTW, I'm not a fan of macross 7 either, I just think it sucks less than macross II... which has nearly everything you dislike about macross 7. But then, mac II is a tired retread of macross and so I guess it makes sense why you would feel so strongly about it, since you're unable to have an original thought yourself.

if I may give advice. Let it go. His opion wont' change. Magice can be explained with psionics and other things quiet easily. The base diffrence between science fiction and fantasy fiction is that science ficiton uses science as a plot device and everything is tangable due ot some sort of technobabble. It is speculative science. It does not need to be grouned in what we belive to be science. Hence you have your warp drives etc.

Magic is somthing that is spectatucalr that you cannot explain with normal means. If you take the science out of a science ficiton piece it will fall apart. You can tell alot of the same stories using magic or science. Take terminator. You can tell the entire story in a fantasy setting and still have the sory work. Which is funny.

[EXO]

Lemme see... This is Mac 7 vs. Mac II

No vs. threads allowed.

Click!