Why macross fans thinks Macross 2 is worse than Macross 7?

[kamikaze_kamujin]

Hello, new guy here. I watched Macross 7 some weeks ago and I started to wonder from the beginings why people thinks Macross 2 is worse than Macross 7.

Dear god that series really sucks. Did it miss any creative people from the original series or something?

It's so different to the other Macross. I felt like I was getting retarded when I was watching it.

Moreover, some friends of mine saw me watching it and I felt so embarrased. I many time spoke highly about Macross to them and when they saw what I was watching they looked at me as if I were a complete idiot stuck in his 6 years, and who could easily be a fan of Pokemon too. And that's not the worse part, but to feel they were right to look me that way, I even couldnt come up with a single justification to tell them "this isnt as stupid as it looks"

Anyway.. the purpose of my topic is to know if someone could give me a logical explanation, for me to try

to understand why macross fans thinks Macross 2 is worse than Macross 7. I think Macross 7 is worse by far than Macross 2. Does anyone else think the way I do, that Macross 2 is better than Macross 7?

[JsARCLIGHT]

Most folks place Macross 2 beneath Macross 7 because Mac2 was "non-canon", meaning the "Macross grand poobah" Kawamori and his production company did not work on the project and it takes place "outside" the "official" Macross timeline. In a sense in a few people's eyes Mac2 is an "illegitimate" Macross sequel.

Personally I prefer Mac2 to Mac7 and when you hear other people say the same that is all it is, personal preference. Each series has positives and negatives, and even those are seen differently by different people.

And just a quick notice, let's try to NOT make this a Macross 7 or Macross 2 bash thread... those have been done to death here. I'll leave this topic open for people to talk about their own personal reasons for liking Macross 2 over Macross 7 or vice versa but PLEASE leave the vitriol and 7/2 slamming out of the thread.

[Mr March]

I'd have a hard time choosing which show I dislike more. I find both Macross 2 and Macross 7 of such poor quality that beyond that, it's really pointless to spend time considering the subject further. I am generally the type of fan that sticks to canon materials in any franchise. I don't really care for extended official materials and other spin-off productions (again, typically because of poor quality). So in the case of these two productions, I'd probably give more credence to Macross 7 as "canon" Macross than I would Macross 2. But like I say, that's granting Macross 7 very little, if anything. Examining the two based solely on the story, I'm of the opinion that Macross 2 is more of a genuine Macross story than Macross 7 ever will be. I may find Macross 2 mediocre at best, but it does stay true to Macross lore (up to that point), the Macross setting and the established fundamentals of Macross much more than M7.

Take that for what it's worth.

Edited November 5, 2006 by Mr March

[Bishop76]

It will be hard to discuss the merits of 2 vs 7 without being slighly bashing, but here goes...

Personally, I'm not a huge fan of either, but if I had to pick which one I liked more it would be 2. Because at the very least, 2 didn't make me laugh out loud at the absoute absurdity of some of its plot points.

Despite being non-canon, 2 was still a far superior story. Okay, it was basically the same story as the original with a few modifications and the whole Marduk thing just didn't make sense. There were actually a lot of plot points that just didn't make sense, really, but at the very least music wasn't magical and the next time I watch the original Macross and think to myself "You know, it was good, but what it needs are furry flying elves and big goofy looking pentagram shooting monsters" it will be the first time.

Basically, 2 was a lot more like the original and it wasn't 49 episodes of mostly the same thing EVERY EPISODE.

I know this will be an unpopular opinion, but after 7 and Zero, I'd just as soon NOT have Kawamori work on any more Macross projects. Like George Lucas, he's lost touch with his own creation.

[Phyrox]

I don't have much to add here, except to say that I too prefer Macross 2 to Macross 7.

Mac2 is decent, fairly derivative, but not bad.

Mac7 is a disaster.

I suppose sensible people can disagree about it...I suppose.

[do not disturb]

after all the years of people hating on m2 and m7, i just kept myself from having to endure either of them.

now even though i haven't seen them, i'd say m2 was better. my opinion is solely based on the fact that atleast in m2, none of the valks had breasts. robots with boobies is stupidest thing ever and its even more stupid when they actually shoot something. basically any kind of robot/mecha with human-like features is completely retarded IMO.

oddly, i'm not a big fan of the 1S head because it looks like a dude with a mask covering his face. its tolerable because its roys valk but its not as cool as the A, D, and J heads, shoot even the made up R head looks more 'mecha-listic'....yes thats a word i just made up.

i'm sure one day i'll break down and watch m2/7, but its more likely that i'd chop my own arm off and beat myself with it.

[grebo guru]

When I watched the first episodes of Macross 7, I was really enjoying it. It took me a while to get past the whole "VF with a face, controlled by a guitar" thing (and the "Max and Millia haven't aged much" thing), but eventually I came to like it. But the series became to repetitive, and in many ways devolved in creativity, that after about 40 episodes I was really unhappy. Whenever Basara's damn song started playing, I cringed. I was so sick of it.

Still, M7 had its good points. I love the VF-17. I thought Bihida was kinda cool. (Sometimes.) I rather like the spaceship designs. A few episodes (the bigass "Gunpod Sigma through the windshield" episode and the "Max and Millia fly VF-22s and show everyone how it's done" episodes especially) were very good.

Overall, I think I enjoy Macross 2 more, but not by a lot. The story is pretty weak and disappointing. The series overall is kinda boring and makes poor use of its good ideas. For me, they stack up like this:

Macross 7:

Many bad underlying ideas, poor characters.

Some cool mecha and some horrible mecha.

Macross II:

Many good underlying ideas, poor characters.

Some cool mecha and some horrible mecha.

So I guess in the end, I gotta go with Macross II... but only by a hair.

Grebo

[jenius]

MacII:

"Why does a new agency need a valk?"

"How did a reporter penetrate the enemy's defenses better than the military?"

"How did Hibiki manage to lose a reporter, pick up an alien, and get her home without a million red flags going off?"

"Wait, is this the ending from DYRL?"

"Did they just blow up the SDF-1?!?"

Mac7:

"WTF?"

So, yeah, I guess if I gotta pick the lesser of two evils I'd go wtih MacII. At least it's short and it can be fun if you ignore the plot contrivances.

[azrael]

And just a quick notice, let's try to NOT make this a Macross 7 or Macross 2 bash thread... those have been done to death here. I'll leave this topic open for people to talk about their own personal reasons for liking Macross 2 over Macross 7 or vice versa but PLEASE leave the vitriol and 7/2 slamming out of the thread.

Yes this has been done. All 330 replies + Poll.

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=14098

[Zinjo]

Well I'll reply before Keith jumps in guns a blazing...

I like them both for various reasons, but prefer mac II as it stayed closer to the core of SDFM. The dropped plot threads and the under developed Marduk (who should have been the SA), the weak plot points that did become distracting at times, however it was innovative in asking a question, "What if the enemy used song too?"

Mac 7 had great characterizations (dispite the superhuman Basara), particularly the Jenius' and Sivil. It was just as fun to watch as it was difficult to endure at times. The music tends to grow on you, even if you wanted to kill the writer of Planet Dance by the end of the 5th episode and avert your eyes when Battle 7 turned into an actual "Shogun Warrior" with a gun... For a kids show it was pretty good, but not my cup o' tea.

I've debated the merits of both series and accepted their flaws. I still prefer Mac II for it's mecha, premise, and attempt at recreating the drama of SDFM and DYRL. Too bad it didn't have the inspired characterizations of Mac 7 to carry it further, but characterizations were not enough to sway me to Macross 7 ...

[kamikaze_kamujin]

So, aparently it's the other way, the most hated is Macross 7 not Macross 2? Well I have to confess it's kind of a relief to know that Macross isnt going to turn into Macross 7 alike stuff so easily because many fans dont like it.. but what about if it happens? What would you do if Macross 7 style come backs and takes over the way of doing Macross sequels? It's already the largest Macross part, with all that ovas and movie isnt it?

[Tinderfitles]

its like tryin to pick a giant duesche or a turd sandwhich.

the mech designs in 7 where a little far fetched, but so where the plot holes, the poor characters, and that whole floating Macross head thing.

But macross 2 wins if for nothing more than they fact of the macross cannon. Take that anima eroti....i mean spirita.

[Awacs]

Now I have to admit to being slightly on the fence here. Neither of them have particularly grabbed me. Having Mac II a couple of times, and the first of Mac 7 through once I would have to say neither show grabbed me enough to make me in any hurry to rewatch them.

That said...

I'm not a big fan of Macross II, mostly because it doesn't actually have any characters I care about in. I never really made any kind of connection to any of the cast of MacII, and a number of them I outright disliked as people. For me that is pretty much a dealbreaker, if I don't click with any of the characters it doesn't matter what I think of the rest of the package. MacII had a few things I liked - the VF2JA, clean-config VF-2SS and the main title song - but other than that it left me completely cold.

Macross 7, whilst some of the story elements just didn't work for me and it suffers from the limitations of its budget, had some characters I connected with. I like Gamlin a lot, there's something in the VA's performance that endears him to me. Mylene I like a lot(although not the chara-design), she's amusing and has an entertaining line in stropps and self-righteous tantrums. The Jenius' Senior are a nice little stereotype as well - the marriage that isn't working under the pressure of competive tendecies. I'd like them even if they weren't Max and Miriya. That just adds icing to the cake in this case. Not crazy about some of the design work for Mac 7 (The Battle 7's hands make me inhale the dregs of my cup of tea the first time I saw them) but the fact that I made some sort of connection with the characters means it edges over the line. Neither of them really hold my interest in the way SFDM, DYRL or Mac Plus do, but with Macross 7 there are some characters I care about. By contrast, for me, Macross II is just pretty noise and lights.

Karl

[sketchley]

[jumping on (or off???) the band wagon]

I prefer Macross 7. When Macross II came out, I liked it, mainly because it had the Macross name. However, in retrospect, it has weak storytelling, lots of plot holes (see jenius's post above for some,) so-so to weak mecha designs (I'm not just talking about VFs here, but all of the mecha in the show,) and cardboard cutout type villians.

Macross 7 is better, IMHO, at the very least, because there is more time spent developing characters, and the villians are anything but flat, one-dimensional characters. If you asked me to describe the characters in Macross II and 7, I'd have almost nothing to say about those from II, but a lot to say about those from 7. II is forgetable, 7 isn't.

No, Macross 7 isn't the best anime, but if you keep in mind that it is a show for kids, and if you pace yourself to one (maybe two at max,) episodes per day, it makes for a far more enjoyable experience. A lot of people forget that - watching the series in concentrated doses (4+ episodes in one sitting) is actually bad, as the show is marketing the Firebomber music, and like watching any advertisement repeatedly...

Another thing that I like about Macross 7 is that it develops and expands upon the overall Macross story - sure, a lot of people don't like the directions that it expands into, but at least it is expanding, and not merely embellishing already established concepts in the Macross mythos, like Macross II does. Heck, we get a lot of the backstory, and an idea of what the Inspection Army is in Macross 7, whereas Macross II introduces a heretofore unknown new alien race, that doesn't exactly fit, IMHO, into what Macross has presented to us previously.

But this is just me.

[Sundown]

I am simultaneously more entertained and enraged by Macross 7 than I am with Macross II.

Macross II has a premise, story, and feel much closer to Macross SDF which I fell in love with, but falls short of its predecessor, and basically tells a story I'm interested, albeit badly, featuring largely forgettable characters. It does throw some neat mecha into the mix, however.

Macross 7 is more entertaining, and does a much better job in the storytelling department, except that the story it tells is one that I'm not particularly interested in, especially since it ret-cons and steps all over the story told in Macross SDF, and forces us to reinterpret things established 15 years ago in a new light simply because it's "canon". Its characters are more interesting and memorable, and their interactions are more entertaining, but the thought that it's "official" and proceeds in the same universe that SDF exists in throws me into a bloody rage. Oh, and it has boobies, and not the good kind.

I'm not a big fan of Zero, either. It's only a hair above Macross II in storytelling, features passable mecha that are visually incongruent with Macross SDF, and even though it abandons some of the sillyness of M7, it still retains some of its more grating elements.

Anyway, I'd rather watch M7 than MII, mainly because I haven't finished M7 yet, and because I find it somewhat more entertaining... and then I'll proceed to try and forget what I'd just seen.

So I hate M7 more, but will admit that it's a better production, and at the same time, a worse Macross sequel.

Edited November 5, 2006 by Sundown

[sketchley]

Oh... forgot this:

If forced to choose between watching II and 7, I'd choose 7. At it's very worst, it gave some Japanese cultural lessons. A refresher of those lessons would be good.

[Mr March]

So, aparently it's the other way, the most hated is Macross 7 not Macross 2? Well I have to confess it's kind of a relief to know that Macross isnt going to turn into Macross 7 alike stuff so easily because many fans dont like it.. but what about if it happens? What would you do if Macross 7 style come backs and takes over the way of doing Macross sequels? It's already the largest Macross part, with all that ovas and movie isnt it?

Macross is a marginal franchise at best. With the downright poor quality of the latest offering - Macross Zero - the fanbase has much bigger concerns than worrying about a rehash production of Macross 7. Besides, Kawamori won't do anything Macross unless its different from what's been made so far. Ergo, we'll never again see another Macross 7 nor Macross Zero. Unfortunately, this little rule of Kawamori's also includes the good stuff, so we'll never get another SDF Macross, DYRL? or Macross Plus either.

[JB0]

I haven't see Mac2 in quite some time, so I can only really comment on 7.

But I enjoyed 7, for what it was.

It's not a show I'm gonna watch again in all probability, but it was an interesting take on things.

I thought it's biggest faults were the cardboard cutout lead character and the fact that the entire thing goes to hell after Operation Stargazer(though OS itself is the high point of the entire series. Max kicks ass.)

[Macross73]

I never watched either one and though i was considering it,

Just for the sake of completion now I think I may pass on both

of them.

If I find them for extra cheap I might suffer though them.

[JB0]

I never watched either one and though i was considering it,

Just for the sake of completion now I think I may pass on both

of them.

If I find them for extra cheap I might suffer though them.

I recommend it, just so you have a frame of reference.

I used fansubs for Mac7

[Sevket_Erhat]

I have already watched 15 episodes of Macross 7 and there is a lot to go (Encore, Movie,Dynamite 7) I hope I can finish them soon before I die from boredom

[Keith]

Macross 7 is clearly superior, as well as being a significantly better show than most give it credit for. But then the fact that it managed to be a 52 episode series, movie, & 4 episode OVA, as opposed to a 6 episode OVA with the budget pulled out near the end more than speaks for itself. Also noting that the two are only 2 years apart in production time puts them as relative contemporaries.

The Japanese fanbase has spoken, & Kawamori & Nue have spoken. A few U.S. fans who refuse to accept a few changes doesn't make a show bad.

[F-ZeroOne]

I sometimes feel that part of the reason why Macross 7 causes so much comment is that Western fandom basically became aware of it at roughly the same time as Macross Plus, and were expecting more of the same as Plus from Macross 7.

Macross 7 certainly has its faults - the series is at least 10 episodes too long, the initial storyline takes too long to get going, some of the concepts are best described as "goofy", and its a real pity that they skimped on the animation in the space battle scenes (usually a Macross highlight); however, it is perhaps truer in spirit to the original Macross series than Plus, and the idea of a pacifist central character is certainly an interesting one for a mecha show - even if he is a jerk.

Edit: oh, and lets not forget the "Max" factor in Macross 7.

Edited November 5, 2006 by F-ZeroOne

[kamikaze_kamujin]

Macross 7 is clearly superior, as well as being a significantly better show than most give it credit for. But then the fact that it managed to be a 52 episode series, movie, & 4 episode OVA, as opposed to a 6 episode OVA with the budget pulled out near the end more than speaks for itself. Also noting that the two are only 2 years apart in production time puts them as relative contemporaries.

The Japanese fanbase has spoken, & Kawamori & Nue have spoken. A few U.S. fans who refuse to accept a few changes doesn't make a show bad.

I can imagine that someone could find it "clearly superior" because there is people for everything. But to say is a show with a few changes is completely non sense. I can imagine also though, some fans saying the opposite of what is because it happens in any discussion, someone always fills that empty place. Also, speaking for people who isnt here it's very easy, but if you watched a fire bomber concert in Japan you'd see that's full of teens and that wasnt the original japanese Macross fanbase. Finally, the amount of episodes of a show doesnt make it any good. How many episodes did Pokemon have? The only thing you left to say

it's a show for mature people. I imagine you can also say that, cant you?

Also you made an statement to back you up, that the show is supported by Kawamori and Studio Nue and that poll made here it's a distorsion of the truth. That's a way to discourage many of saying what they really think about Macross 7 because they would fell into the "not complete loyal Macross fan" . Who would support Macross 7 is if were known it isnt liked by most people and Kawamori & Studio Nue wouldnt support it? I really dont think Kawamori and Nue would make some heroical support to the show if it were known for example, they could make a real movie and that kind of show cant reach a Live Action Movie audience. Didnt Kawamori also say that Macross 7 was something that made him able to make Macross Plus, or am I wrong? I dont think that's what you say of something you are proud of.

Now any of you imagine what really could happen if you put to people who often goes to see an action movie to cinemas a Live Action Macross 7 on screen and what could happen if you put another Macross show on screen.

Edited November 5, 2006 by kamikaze_kamujin

[Mr March]

This is a go nowhere arguement kamikaze_kamujin. It's been debated and fought over for years.

Let the few for Macross 7 rationalize however they can to give credence to the show. Even Cowboy Bebop, all but ignored in Japan, was made into a feature film and manga. M7 was a moderate success owed largely to the bubblegum pop music popular at the time and is fashionably forgotten (much like the Spice Girls). SDF Macross, DYRL? and Macross Plus are the Macross productions that are remembered in Japan, when the franchise is recalled at all (a rarity, since Macross has very little presence on the radar of pop culture in Japan). The modern toys, models, and merchandise like video games are either all SDF Macross, DYRL?, Plus, or Macross Zero and have been this way for years.

Like I said, Macross fans have greater worries for the future of the Macross franchise than rehashing of Macross II or Macross 7.

Edited November 5, 2006 by Mr March

[sketchley]

Agreed that most people that I have met, and continue to meet here in Japan simply don't know, or never have heard of Macross.

Disagreed that the few that do know, or have heard of Macross remember, or even know about Macross Plus.

Most of the very few who do know of Macross either distantly, and vaguely remember the original TV series only. Of those, about half (or more) usually ask something about Lynn Minmei, or her voice actress, Mari Ijima.

Therefore roughly 1 in 100 people that you meet here in Japan will think Macross = the original TV series. And roughly a half (or more!) will think Macross = Minmeni = Mari Ijima. Followed (usually) by a question related to you (still) liking her songs, or not.

So yeah, worry; not that more 7 or II will be produced, but that no more Macross will be produced period.

[jenius]

So long as companies like Yamato, Bandai, or anyone else make money by labeling something Macross there's always plenty of hope for future Macross projects.

[eugimon]

musings about the future of macross aside, I couldn't stand watching more of mac II after the first installment, yet I finished mac 7. In the end, I cared less for the macross II cast then I did the macross 7 crew.

[kensei]

Looking on Youutbe at the moment, M7 is pretty hot. Gets around 700 views an episode, and it's up to ep 36.

[danth]

I loved Macross Seven, though I agree with a lot of the complaints. It could have been distilled down to 36 episodes for sure, maybe even 26. Some of the "filler" episodes were still fun, though. I absolutely loathe that "Power to the People" song -- but all the other songs rock. Also, Basara should have had some flaws and character development, but I loved Mylene and Gamlin.

As for the premise, I love it. If you like Macross but can't get over guitar-controlled Valkyries or mecha-tits, you're just a prude, in my book. Get over it and have some fun.

[UN Spacy]

GREAT.

The mods close the Borat thread but another Macross II/7 bashing thread stays open.

[Zinjo]

The Japanese fanbase has spoken, & Kawamori & Nue have spoken. A few U.S. fans who refuse to accept a few changes doesn't make a show bad.

Well that is a bit misleading, since in today's market with so many anime programs becoming more and more "broad based" in hopes of finding a second life in the North American & international markets. Essentially studios and toy companies are looking at double dipping in both the Japanese and international markets, not only for licensing fees but also merchadise exports.

It is highly doubtful that Mac 7 will ever be licensed for North American distribution, because it is so heavily reliant on the music which is not in English, it is a kids show and eventhough there is a market for such shows here, it isn't as strong as the adolescent and adult markets. I suspect North American audiences would find Basara a bit difficult to believe.

Hence why Macross Plus is much better received here than it was in Japan and how many fans here pan Macross 7, yet in Japan it was a hit back in it's day. Why many fans here will chose Mac II with all it's flaws because it is more dramatic in story and tone and reminiscent of SDFM than Mac 7.

As teen and adult fans tend to appreciate more complex stories and the Japanese market is stuck in the same corporate mire of feeding their target demographics as the North American networks are.

It is unfortunate that Japan doesn't have the same cable system as we do here to provide a market for alternative visions from the studios, like Scifi and HBO...

The fact that Kawamori chose Max Jenius to Captain Battle 7 because he heard he was a fan favorite here tells you how early the trend toward looking at international markets had started in Japan.

Macross would probably be much more popular here if it wasn't for the constant market interference by HG. Essentially they've stolen all the thunder from SDFM by veiling it in their RT brand.

Therefore roughly 1 in 100 people that you meet here in Japan will think Macross = the original TV series. And roughly a half (or more!) will think Macross = Minmeni = Mari Ijima.

So by that assumption that roughly translates to 1.25 million people are aware of Macross and that may or may not include the toy collectors who's demand still merit the production of new variable valkyrie toys, kits and collectible figures every year. Some of that demand is international to be sure, but if there isn't a domestic market to recover costs then what's the point...?

However I agree with one poster who pointed out that SK's penchant for "new is always better" has definintely affected the available stories in the universe and not in a good way.

Fans want to see their favorite heroes back in action encountering new challenges and growing, not always being introduced to new strangers who will star in the story.

I suspect that is why all fans can agree that the Jenius' in Mac 7 are one of the favorite features of that show.

However, I do wonder if SK isn't revising his position as in the last two show's he's worked on, characters from the original SDFM featured prominantly in them as sort of an anchor to the original show.

I am thinking some new blood is necessary to collaborate on some fresh stories for the franchise or it will indeed die a slow death very soon.

Edited November 6, 2006 by Zinjo

[sketchley]

It is unfortunate that Japan doesn't have the same cable system as we do here to provide a market for alternative visions from the studios, like Scifi and HBO...

But they do: http://www.skyperfectv.co.jp/en/ And that's just one provider.

However I agree with one poster who pointed out that SK's penchant for "new is always better" has definintely affected the available stories in the universe and not in a good way.

That's a Japanese concept, not limited to Kawamori. Japan is the most high-tech country for a reason.

Fans want to see their favorite heroes back in action encountering new challenges and growing, not always being introduced to new strangers who will star in the story.

No. In general, Japanese want to see stories. If the story is completed, and there is nothing more to tell, and continuing the story means recycling old plot points, then people will become disinterested very fast. I've seen a drama series being as short as three episodes, and on the flip side, I've seen dramas that continue for a long, long time - simply because it takes that long to tell the story. Please keep in mind that I am refering mostly to live action dramas (the Japanese definition of drama too,) as live action shows are invariably much more popular than animated shows. It should also be noted that sitcoms do not exist in Japan. It is very, very rare to see episodic shows in general, and most are like "24" - in that each episode is a chapter of a larger ) story.

The inclusion of Fokker, Jenius, and Miria has a lot more to do with more of their story being able to be told, than including them for their brand-name recognition.

Edited November 6, 2006 by sketchley

[kensei]

That's a Japanese concept, not limited to Kawamori. Japan is the most high-tech country for a reason.

No. In general, Japanese want to see stories. If the story is completed, and there is nothing more to tell, and continuing the story means recycling old plot points, then people will become disinterested very fast. I've seen a drama series being as short as three episodes, and on the flip side, I've seen dramas that continue for a long, long time - simply because it takes that long to tell the story. Please keep in mind that I am refering mostly to live action dramas (the Japanese definition of drama too,) as live action shows are invariably much more popular than animated shows. It should also be noted that sitcoms do not exist in Japan. It is very, very rare to see episodic shows in general, and most are like "24" - in that each episode is a chapter of a larger ) story.

The inclusion of Fokker, Jenius, and Miria has a lot more to do with more of their story being able to be told, than including them for their brand-name recognition.

Yeah well, the opposite worked pretty well for Gundam.

[sketchley]

As I said:

has a lot more to do with more of their story being able to be told, than including them for their brand-name recognition.

Just to clarify: are you saying that Gundam is episodic (as in, each episode is self contained, and has no bearing on preceeding or following episodes)?