Frustrated by MAHQ

[grebo guru]

Since I started posting here, I have been instructed again and again to read the Newbie thread. So I'm in the process of doing so. All 76 pages of it. (Quite a trudge; not exactly the most welcoming way to be greeted by a forum. Sigh.)

Anyway, while reading through it, I've seen a few people ask about the Zentraedi powered armor we see Isamu fighting in the beginning of Macross Plus. Per MAHQ's listing for this mecha, people refer to it as the "Nousjadel-Ger Kai". (Please pardon my spelling, I'm sure I've got Nousjadel wrong... I don't speak Japanese/Alien very well.) I know "kai" is Japanese for "redesign" or "modification" or "custom", etc, but:

Where, exactly, is there any official confirmation that this mecha is actually named "Nousjadel-Ger Kai"?

In the This Is Animation Special Macross Plus book the mecha in question is labeled as "teki no batorusuutsu" -- simply, "enemy battlesuit". In the Kazutaka Miyatake Design Works book, it is labeled as "Zentraedi battlesuit." Neither book mentions the Nousjadel-Ger by name, and really, that thing doesn't bear very much resemblance to the Nousjadel-Ger anyway (neither its movie nor its TV versions).

I'd love to know if there is any official/canonical source for the "Nousjadel-Ger Kai" name. I suspect there isn't, and that it's just a case of the folks at MAHQ using it for lack of anything better, and the name thus falling into semi-regular use. But I could just as easily be wrong. Anyone know for sure?

With curiosity,

Grebo

[JB0]

I'm pretty sure it's just MAHQ being Gundam-y. I can't think of any Macross "kai" mecha aside from Sound Force.

'Sides, it bears more resemblance to the QRau than the NosGer in the first place(in that there IS a visible relationship). So "Queadluun Rau Kai" is probably less inaccurate.

Edited October 30, 2006 by JB0

[sketchley]

Kazutaka Miyatake's design works has the mecha lumped in with the Nousjadel-Ger, semi-supporting it's designation of Nousjadel-Ger-kai. (pg. 29 and 30.) The focus is on the tv series Nousjadel-ger, with only a very small image of the movie version - as the movie version was designed by a different author than the book is focused on.

Though, it is referred to as "Zentraedi Battlesuit"

The Queadluun-Rau appears on the book too, but on Pg. 40 and 41, deep in the Macross Plus section, and following the YF-21 on pg. 39.

Interestingly, the Nousjadel-Ger and friend are at the tail end of the Macross: the movie section, and only roughs from the design process appear in the Macross TV series section proper (pg 13, with both Nousjadel-Ger and Queadluun-Rau on the same page.)

Edited October 30, 2006 by sketchley

[JB0]

Kazutaka Miyatake's design works has the mecha lumped in with the Nousjadel-Ger, semi-supporting it's designation of Nousjadel-Ger-kai. (pg. 29 and 30.) The focus is on the tv series Nousjadel-ger, with only a very small image of the movie version - as the movie version was designed by a different author than the book is focused on.

Ah, so that's where MAHQ got that idea.

I need more books.

[sketchley]

MAHQ's article predates the publication of the book. The book was published 2005.6.01.

[azrael]

MAHQ isn't exactly the best spot for Macross. MAHQ focuses more on works of Tomino and Gundam.

[Beltane70]

'Sides, it bears more resemblance to the QRau than the NosGer in the first place(in that there IS a visible relationship). So "Queadluun Rau Kai" is probably less inaccurate.

Maybe it's like the way it is with cars. A 1953 Corvette doesn't resemble a 2006 'Vette in any way, except maybe for the fact that they both have wheels.

[JB0]

Maybe it's like the way it is with cars. A 1953 Corvette doesn't resemble a 2006 'Vette in any way, except maybe for the fact that they both have wheels.

Well, a '53 'Vette doesn't look a lot like an '06 Camaro, either.

The "NosGer Kai" has a VERY similar style and weapons loadout to the QRau.

Big shoulders packs, forearm cannons, twin chest cannons, metric buttloads of missiles, "high heel" feet...

Looking at pics(MAHQ is good for that, if nothing else), the DYRL NosGer had antennae added to the head and a totally redesigned foot, giving it a more QRau look(ironic given the DYRL plot should have caused mech designs to diverge further, like the ships and character designs did, instead of becoming more closely related). The "Kai" foot looks more like the QRau foot than the DYRL NosGer, though(higher heel and a "bell-bottom" flare on the front of the leg).

The head and hands are the only really NosGer parts about the NosGer Kai.

If it IS a NosGer descendant, the implication is they discarded the original design and developed a new one based on the QRau.

[sketchley]

Didn't they already do that with the DYRL version?

EDIT: with some further thought - the Q-Rau was also changed for DYRL, however the changes were, as I would define them, minor cosmetic ones.

In the Macross Plus/Macross 7 era, a variation of the Q-Rau does appear (M7 movie,) and, if anything, it still retains the basic forms and shapes of the original Q-Rau. IMHO, it is the Nousjadel-Ger that the creators of Macross are not happy with, and, from a lack of further information (as in, it's the Inspection Army variation of the battlesuit) beyond where it is lumped in Kazutaka Miyatake's book, I still favor that it is simply the Nousjadel-Ger upgrade for the M+/M7 era, or the updgraded (kai) version of the original.

Edited November 1, 2006 by sketchley

[grebo guru]

<snip> IMHO, it is the Nousjadel-Ger that the creators of Macross are not happy with, and, from a lack of further information <snip> I still favor that it is simply the Nousjadel-Ger upgrade for the M+/M7 era, or the updgraded (kai) version of the original.

That's perfectly fine, and makes a fair amount of sense. However, my point was (and is) that no official source actually identifies this battlesuit as the "Nousjadel-Ger Kai". For MAHQ to lead people to believe that this is the battlesuit's official designation... Well, that's misleading and unfortunate.

Of course, it's far from the only case. MAHQ identifies a GUNDAM X mobile suit as the "Octave", while the katakana clearly indicates that it's name is the "Oct Ape" (or "Octo Ape"). While "Octave" is certainly a cooler-sounding name, it is nonetheless wrong.

Greeeeeeeebo

[JB0]

MAHQ is notoriously bad outside of their Gundam sections.

[Nied]

At least Nousjadel-Ger kai is better than the "Renegade Power Armour" brainbug that had been poluting the internets for years. Honestly given some of the styling cues I always imagined that the mecha from M+ were Supervision Army versions of the Nousjadel-Ger, some of the details do bear a resemblance to the pre-crash Macross and the Varauta mecha.

[JB0]

At least Nousjadel-Ger kai is better than the "Renegade Power Armour" brainbug that had been poluting the internets for years. Honestly given some of the styling cues I always imagined that the mecha from M+ were Supervision Army versions of the Nousjadel-Ger, some of the details do bear a resemblance to the pre-crash Macross and the Varauta mecha.

I immediatly thought QRau when I saw that scene.

Admittedly, I didn't look really close. I just saw a lot of butt-hauling and a missile swarm.

[Mr March]

Hehehe, been looking at MAHQ recently? I hope you can submit some of your work to them. MAHQ needs to change a few things for the better on their website. Someone posted that they are poor outside of the Gundam sections and I couldn't agree more. The Macross and Patlabor sections need a good, thorough overhaul.

[Mr March]

Since I started posting here, I have been instructed again and again to read the Newbie thread. So I'm in the process of doing so. All 76 pages of it. (Quite a trudge; not exactly the most welcoming way to be greeted by a forum. Sigh.)

I understand the reason behind a newbie thread, but I just want you to know that I would never expect you or any newb to read through that hideous monstrousity.

[JB0]

I understand the reason behind a newbie thread, but I just want you to know that I would never expect you or any newb to read through that hideous monstrousity.

I feel that way about most of the monster threads.

Past a certain point, they cease to be useful except as "chatrooms."

[ChrisG]

You know, if you're all frustrated by MAHQ's supposed lack of quality outside of Gundam, it wouldn't hurt to e-mail me and bring this to my attention. I'm sorry that so much of the site doesn't fit people's standards. I'm not Nanashi or Egan Loo, and I don't have the resources to purchase Macross lineart books, so I depend on community contributions. Would I like to have all color art for Macross, Patlabor, etc? Sure. But since most people only contribute Gundam, I work with what I can. If that's not good enough, well, no one's forcing any of you to go to MAHQ and look at so much garbage.

[grebo guru]

Yo ChrisG,

Sorry to have offended you. I've actually contributed stuff to MAHQ before (such as the "O Gundam" material), and intend to do so again in the future. I actually think MAHQ is terrific -- but there are some errors and, as a spazzy geek, I get all worked up about them. Still, you're in good company; I mean heck, the number of errors and omissions in the MS Encyclopedias (published in Japan every few years) is mind-boggling!

Grebo

You know, if you're all frustrated by MAHQ's supposed lack of quality outside of Gundam, it wouldn't hurt to e-mail me and bring this to my attention. I'm sorry that so much of the site doesn't fit people's standards. I'm not Nanashi or Egan Loo, and I don't have the resources to purchase Macross lineart books, so I depend on community contributions. Would I like to have all color art for Macross, Patlabor, etc? Sure. But since most people only contribute Gundam, I work with what I can. If that's not good enough, well, no one's forcing any of you to go to MAHQ and look at so much garbage.

[Mr March]

You know, if you're all frustrated by MAHQ's supposed lack of quality outside of Gundam, it wouldn't hurt to e-mail me and bring this to my attention. I'm sorry that so much of the site doesn't fit people's standards. I'm not Nanashi or Egan Loo, and I don't have the resources to purchase Macross lineart books, so I depend on community contributions. Would I like to have all color art for Macross, Patlabor, etc? Sure. But since most people only contribute Gundam, I work with what I can. If that's not good enough, well, no one's forcing any of you to go to MAHQ and look at so much garbage.

There's no need to get bent out of shape. The lagging quality of the Macross, Patlabor, and other non-gundam sections of MAHQ is hardly news and has been so for years. No one here is bashing the website; an honest opinion of what MAHQ needs is valid criticism (and your response proves the point). I was the one who suggested to grebo guru in another thread that he should submit some of his scans to your website and hoped they would be welcome. If you want something constructive done, then start there.

Edited November 5, 2006 by Mr March

[ChrisG]

There's no need to get bent out of shape. The lagging quality of the Macross, Patlabor, and other non-gundam sections of MAHQ is hardly news and has been so for years. No one here is bashing the website; an honest opinion of what MAHQ needs is valid criticism (and your response proves the point). I was the one who suggested grebo guru should submit some of his scans to your website and hoped they would be welcome. If you want something constructive done, then start there.

Valid criticism is perfectly acceptable, but "MAHQ sucks for everything outside of Gundam" is not valid criticism, just a useless complaint. I inherited the mecha sections from The Mecha Domain years ago with plenty of mistakes, and I've tried to fix them. Plenty are still there. I've tried to make it clear that I'm completely open to criticism, feedback and contributions, but in the last five years I've found that people would rather just complain than do something to make a difference. If my response has me "bent out of shape," it's because I'm tired of seeing these attitudes over and over.

[Mr March]

Valid criticism is perfectly acceptable, but "MAHQ sucks for everything outside of Gundam" is not valid criticism, just a useless complaint. I inherited the mecha sections from The Mecha Domain years ago with plenty of mistakes, and I've tried to fix them. Plenty are still there. I've tried to make it clear that I'm completely open to criticism, feedback and contributions, but in the last five years I've found that people would rather just complain than do something to make a difference. If my response has me "bent out of shape," it's because I'm tired of seeing these attitudes over and over.

I agree it's hard to objectively consider intentionally harsh complaints, but that doesn't make the complaints baseless. It's acknowledged that MAHQ has an ongoing problem, yet priorities dictate the situation won't improve. MAHQ hasn't updated the Macross Mecha section for more than two years; it's been all but abandoned. The Patlabor section hasn't been touched in over a year either.

If the unspoken reality is to let sections like Macross, Patlabor, and others slide, that inaction invites the very criticism that occurs repeatedly. I understand your situation and sympathize, but I have to say responsibility for the MAHQ website does not lie with the critics. I guess it really comes down the example being set; if the MAHQ doesn't care about Macross/Patlabor, why should anyone else?

I hope I've at least provided something worth thinking about. I also hope grebo guru submits his work as well.

[sketchley]

I sympathize with you ChrisG. My experience with the internet crowd is that they are all talk (usually negative complaints,) and little constructive action.

A couple of years back I was involved with a site doing Macross RPG stat creation. When it came to getting anything done, 0.1% of the respondees would actually do something. The rest just added their opinions (usually negative) and suggestions (stuff usually not thought out, as it unbalanced things) that were little more than 'this should be added' and not 'here's some details that I created to be added.' Positive comments were nonexistant. Where is this project now? Dead in the water, and at everyones loss.

So yeah, I sympathize.

[yellowlightman]

I would imagine the improper (or at least un-verified) classification might have something to do with Dave Deitrich's original background for the mecha on his RPG site.

[ChrisG]

MAHQ hasn't updated the Macross Mecha section for more than two years; it's been all but abandoned. The Patlabor section hasn't been touched in over a year either.

If the unspoken reality is to let sections like Macross, Patlabor, and others slide, that inaction invites the very criticism that occurs repeatedly. I understand your situation and sympathize, but I have to say responsibility for the MAHQ website does not lie with the critics. I guess it really comes down the example being set; if the MAHQ doesn't care about Macross/Patlabor, why should anyone else?

See, but the Macross section hasn't been abandoned. I don't recall exactly when, but a few months ago there were indeed updates. All the mecha and ships that appear in the original TV series and DYRL were separated to have their own profiles. A bunch of new color lineart was added for the various versions of the Nousjadeul-Ger and Queadluun-Rau. And though it may not have been a credited update, most of the Patlabor section was re-organized earlier this year.

I was a fan of Macross long before I ever discovered Gundam. My dedication to improve the section is there, but all my main contributors for Macross have disappeared. For years, I've wanted to open a Macross model review section and have made several announcements, but no one ever responded. Of course, it doesn't help that Macross anime productions are few and far between. As much as we all love the franchise, it's not exactly going anywhere now, whereas Gundam has a zillion anime and manga produced constantly.

What it all boils down to is that running such a massive website is too much for just one person. MAHQ's mecha sections have evolved into a community project, and the results depend on how much people are willing to help.

[Mr March]

See, but the Macross section hasn't been abandoned. I don't recall exactly when, but a few months ago there were indeed updates. All the mecha and ships that appear in the original TV series and DYRL were separated to have their own profiles. A bunch of new color lineart was added for the various versions of the Nousjadeul-Ger and Queadluun-Rau. And though it may not have been a credited update, most of the Patlabor section was re-organized earlier this year.

I was a fan of Macross long before I ever discovered Gundam. My dedication to improve the section is there, but all my main contributors for Macross have disappeared. For years, I've wanted to open a Macross model review section and have made several announcements, but no one ever responded. Of course, it doesn't help that Macross anime productions are few and far between. As much as we all love the franchise, it's not exactly going anywhere now, whereas Gundam has a zillion anime and manga produced constantly.

What it all boils down to is that running such a massive website is too much for just one person. MAHQ's mecha sections have evolved into a community project, and the results depend on how much people are willing to help.

It's good to see at least some small work is being done, but the sections need some major reworking to bring them up to the level seen elsewhere on MAHQ. If the demands of MAHQ mean the Macross and Patlabor sections are defacto public domain, that's a policy based on priority. But like I've said, that policy does nothing to invalidate the criticism, however poorly those criticisms may be articulated.

I wasn't aware that Macross' popularity was the reason for the lack of work on MAHQ, though I understand the difference in profile between it and Gundam or EVA. However, the Gundam anime's as old as the Macross shows are being revised and updated constantly, so I don't see the parallel there. Sounds like things have moved on and very little time will be invested in the Macross sections, both out of necessity and personal preference. All understandable and reasonable, but again, that just invites the harsh words of those fans still interested and does nothing to address the issue.

[ChrisG]

It's good to see at least some small work is being done, but the sections need some major reworking to bring them up to the level seen elsewhere on MAHQ. If the demands of MAHQ mean the Macross and Patlabor sections are defacto public domain, that's a policy based on priority. But like I've said, that policy does nothing to invalidate the criticism, however poorly those criticisms may be articulated.

I wasn't aware that Macross' popularity was the reason for the lack of work on MAHQ, though I understand the difference in profile between it and Gundam or EVA. However, the Gundam anime's as old as the Macross shows are being revised and updated constantly, so I don't see the parallel there. Sounds like things have moved on and very little time will be invested in the Macross sections, both out of necessity and personal preference. All understandable and reasonable, but again, that just invites the harsh words of those fans still interested and does nothing to address the issue.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough on this. I don't update things based on what I consider to be more popular. However, the popularity of a series certainly reflects on the contributions I receive from others. Gundam is constantly in the public eye, so it's no surprise that people will constantly send me specs, lineart, etc. With Macross, we all know how new productions are few and far between, so obviously outside contributions for that will dry up. My eventual goal for Macross is to have all color lineart for everything, streamlined specs and detailed historical profiles. I'm slowly getting there with the lineart, but the specs and profiles will obviously take much longer.

[Mr March]

That sounds great. The technical side of Macross has always been lacking representation on the internet and it'd be great to see a section like the one you described. I hope to see more in the future.

[ChrisG]

That sounds great. The technical side of Macross has always been lacking representation on the internet and it'd be great to see a section like the one you described. I hope to see more in the future.

I've put out a general call on MAHQ for Macross related materials, so hopefully that will generate some interest. I think this thread has served its purpose, and any further discussion of MAHQ and Macross can be done via e-mail or PM.

[EXO]

This is MW, we can only complain never contribute...

anyway... help ChrisG build a better Macross section at MAHQ. Also, Graham has asked for help for materials for MW and so has the people at MacrossNexus.

To paraphrase some dead guy, "Ask not what Macross can do for you, ask what you can do for Macross..."