Asuka II Carrier Battle Group

[op4_delta]

You are right with the number changes, as a matter of fact the name Algeciras is traditional in the Marine National, and the "Illustria" (Illustrious) carrier we see in epidode 1 is a regular name in Royal Navy ships, so other ships could be transfered or renamed. But what I tried to say is that the only Flight I or Flight II Arleigh Burke destroyers with the numbers 70 to 78 are US Navy.

The numbers are subject to change as well as the names, but there are too many coincidences to ignore them to assume that the DDG 77 is a new type of ship, even if it is, it would only be a burke with a different forecastle, also lacking a very important phalanx gun, wich is a contradiction to the increase in anti-air warfare weapons we see in the rest of the ships. The Asuka sacrificed flightdeck space in exchange of 6 AAW destroids, the equivalent of 12 phalanx guns, plus one more conventional phalanx mounted on the island and a boxy thing in the stern that appears to be a sea sparrow launcher.

The burkes also gained an additional phalanx in a very odd place, so having a degraded burke in a battle scenario with so many advanced air threats with OT misiles makes no sense to me and if we take into account that the said new ship appears only in one scene, with other not so well drawn vessels, makes me think that my theory of lazy drawing is not so crazy after all.

[op4_delta]

As requested, this is a WIP pic of the Asuka´s island. The model is not intended for CG movies, is around 30,000 polys so most modern games can load it

I would appreciate if someone tells me what are the antennas and stuff it has.

[Garou Kuroryuu]

As requested, this is a WIP pic of the Asuka´s island. The model is not intended for CG movies, is around 30,000 polys so most modern games can load it

I would appreciate if someone tells me what are the antennas and stuff it has.

Thanks!

You did a great job with the angular surfaces, especially the bridge windows.

The destroid silos look a lot like over-the-ground ICBM silos.

Hoping to see a textured version of your Asuka render later... it'll sure look awesome

Edited November 3, 2006 by Garou Kuroryuu

[op4_delta]

Actually I know very little of texturing, but I plan on taking a photoshop tutorial, if you know a good one for making matals and ships hulls, let me know.

[Knight26]

I used to know a great tutorial for that, it was on scifi-meshes, but they are currently down. As for the anntenna, you have a couple aegis style phased arrays there, the others, nothing real, something made up for the ship.

[op4_delta]

Thanks, let me know if the site comes up again, I will really appreciate that.

The ship is supposed to have the Aegis system, but the SPY-1 arrays look different from the ones in the Burkes and Ticos, so I guess is a SPY-1E or something.

Soon I will post some pics that shows the possitions of the phalanx guns, I am having a problem with the one mounted on the bridge, since it looks smaller in the anime, but in real life, the thing is bigger.

[Lightning]

I'm kinda carrier-illerate here, so I've a question: what are those six "tube-things" behind the carrier island? are they the Cheyenne positions?

[op4_delta]

Yeah, those are the cheyenne possitions.

Now in this image you can see what I think is the Sea Sparrow launcher.

Look just above the waterline and to the stern of the carrier.

This image is dark, but if you zoom in you can see two parallel boxes holded by a cylinder.

What do you guys think?

[Knight26]

Yeah that is a nato sea sparrow launcher

[op4_delta]

I trust your experience, it´s a Sea Sparrow then. I guess that launcher covers the big blind spot the port side has, with only 2 phalanxes protecting both ends, the center is almost undefended at close range, the misiles launched from that port-aft emplacement should reduce the number of threats before they get into phalanx range.

This image shows the cover of the phalanxes at their minimum kill range, if a projectile is not downed before entering the red circle the fragments may produce damage. The blue part of the circle is not covered by the phalanx guns, just by the beam cannon, the empty triangles are blind spots, as you can see the starboard side is fully covered due to the island mounted phalanx and 3 destroids. The image shows coverage at sea level, the vulnerable port side is fully covered from air threats by the other 3 destroids, but they would have to move to the edge of the flightdeck to engage sea-skimming missiles.

Another considerations: In realistic terms, only 4 of the 5 phalanxes can tilt to their maximun elevation arch, one mounted on the island can engage low flying missiles, but it´s proximity to the superstructure limits it´s X axis rotation. In the anime the phalanx fits perfectly, but a real life phalanx is much bigger and has drives and power systems I guess on a box below the mount itself.

Edited November 4, 2006 by op4_delta

[Knight26]

Nice coverage image for the weapons. For the missiles though, like RAM, you are forgetting shoot around the corner, but at that range shown it wouldn't matter much. As for the fit of the Phalanx, yes most are sitting up on a 5-6" barbet if they are on top of any manned workspace.

[op4_delta]

Right, while the Asuka is not equipped with RAM, it´s destroids are, besides, the big port side blind spot is not a big flaw, taking into accout that the ship can manouver to bring the phalanxes to bear and the destroids can move out of their tubes, so a missile hit would be very difficult to achieve, on the other hand enemy variable fighters could outmanouver the destroids and use that gap to their advantage, apparently Ivanov and Nora were well aware of the hole in the carriers defences.

[sketchley]

Very true. Which is probably why carriers, in general, rely on other ships as additional defensive screens. Though, as mentioned, Ivanov and Nora knew how to punch a hole through the additional defensive screens, and put themselve in that big undefended area.

[op4_delta]

Very true. Which is probably why carriers, in general, rely on other ships as additional defensive screens. Though, as mentioned, Ivanov and Nora knew how to punch a hole through the additional defensive screens, and put themselve in that big undefended area.

You made me realize something notable I never payed any attention before, none of the Asuka´s phalanxes fire at Nora or Ivanov, some do not fire at all, like the one mounted on the island and others seem to fire at hi-flying targets, only the destroids engaged them. Maybe the stealth on the Sv-51 was really good.

[Knight26]

The Phalanx may have been out of ammo, or have been prioritized on fast movers. IF they are Block-0 or Block-1A Phalanx they wouldn't be able to engage the slow moving/hovering SV-51s. That is the province of the 1B.

[op4_delta]

The Macross Compendium does not state to wich block those phalanxes belong, they are listed here http://un-spacy-qmtdb.com/macross_page/uns...ls/asuka_ii.htm as block 1B and I agree with that, since the Asuka II was a very modern carrier. So I think that you are right with them being prioritized on fast movers or out of ammo.

Edited November 5, 2006 by op4_delta

[briscojr84]

The Macross Compendium does not state to wich block those phalanxes belong, they are listed here http://un-spacy-qmtdb.com/macross_page/uns...ls/asuka_ii.htm as block 1B and I agree with that, since the Asuka II was a very modern carrier. So I think that you are right with them being prioritized on fast movers or out of ammo.

Block 1B is the only one I had information for, although one thing we keep forgetting is that it's at least two years ahead of where we are now plus the fact that OT is starting to be used so they could be a later model that doesn't exist in the real world.

"Shrugs" So I went with the one 1B.

I didn't even realize those tubes behind the Island were for Cheyennes though I haven't seen the rest of the show, good info. And good luck on your project.

[sketchley]

Fast movers makes sense - as fast moving small objects generally means missiles, which are a lot more harmful then an enemy jet (which may or may not have even been detected due to their active stealth.) It also appears that the SV-51's, without anti-ship missiles, don't appear to have any other means of sinking a ship within the small window of time between getting close enough to do the damage, before the Cheyeene's intercept.

[nanashino]

Very impressive CG models op4_delta! Super nice job.

Just a correction though: The Cheyennes are not CIWS destroids, but air interception/anti-air destroids.

Be careful where you get your information from. The Macross Compendium is your best bet--not those RPG sites.

The Nameless Advisor

www.macrossmecha.info

When I first saw Macross Zero I fell in love with the design of the Asuka II stealth carrier, I rushed to the internet to seek some info about it but I could not found too much info and only a few images. My objective was to create a 3D model of the Asuka to be used in real time strategy games or flight simulators, and in my quest I discovered a lot about the carrier on my own, enough to dispute the affirmation of it being a small scale carrier only 250 meters long, almost like the french CVN Charles de Gaulle.

The Asuka could be taken as a Macross version of the US Navy´s CVNX project, the stealth design is one of it´s main features, it also has a capacity equal or very close to a Nimitz aircraft carrier and almost the same size, 320 meters aprox. Why do I dare to make such assumption?. since I could not find a lineart, I used 2 elements as rference, the catapults and the elevators. The elevators of the Asuka can take 2 fighters at a time, just like the Nimitz, and their layout is almost the same, only 2 elevators have been moved from the place they would occupy on the Nimitz flightdeck. The catapults also cover the same length and are in the same possitions as in a Nimitz carrier.

Using the 2 elements mentioned above as reference I began building my Asuka with a Nimitz lineart and a lot of screen captures from the OVA and this are my findings.

The Asuka´s flightdeck has less space to park aircraft than a Nimitz carrier, one reason is the large island and it´s silos to house the Cheyenne CIWS destroids the other is that parked aircraft increase the radar echoes, specially if they are not stealthy, like the S-3 vikings and the SeaHawk helicopters.

On to the Asuka´s armament. Internet sources describe it with 5 Mk-15B phalanx CIWS, one of them is mounted on the island´s starboard side; 1 beam cannon, I discovered it has 2 beam cannons one on each side of the bow, notably the port beam cannon is destroyed by Nora in episode 3; and last, a VLS cell for anti-aircraft missiles, sea sparrow or SM-2, all those weapons along with the 6 destroids should give the carrier an incredible AAW capability.

The most interesting feature in the Asuka is the amphibious bay, it looks like the one on the LHD´s, it has 2 doors, one opening upwards and the other opening downwards, acting as a ramp, is in this bay where the AIFOS is loaded covered by the giant quarentine bubble.

That´s all for now, in my next post I will talk about the Carrier Battle Group itself and it´s modified Arleigh Burke destroyers.

[nanashino]

The proper term is 'Gravity Control System'.

http://www.macrossmecha.info/fs/macross/macross-gcs.html

The Nameless Advisor

www.macrossmecha.info

M0 free of animation errors????

I should point out Shin's VF-0A disappearing and reappearing FAST packs in episode 5. He jettisons all weapons leaving only the fighter, however, in the next scene, his dorsal fuel tanks and leg-mounted FAST packs appear in the scene and then disappear in the following scene.

The more I look at those things, the more they look like the engine reactors.

Episode 7, SDF Macross, Right when Macross attempts to lift off from Mars base

Episode 4, M+, As Macross lifts off from the lake.

Overtechnology in the reactors is possible since Overtechnology was used to give the F-14 additional life in the UN Navy.

Now, if you want me to really confuse you, Perfect Memory list those same objects as the gravity generators. Now, if those are the AG generators...why are they back in episode 7?

[nanashino]

Ok, since no one cared to read it, I decided to repost it. Please lets conclude the generator thing and discuss the topic´s subject.

Here is a bit more info on the main subject of this topic, the vessels and aircraft conforming the Asuka´s CVBG.

On to the Arleigh Burke missile destroyers: The entire group of escorts the Asuka had were modified Flight I and Flight II Burkes, there is not a single Flight IIA to be seen in the group, depriving the battle group of the extended anti submarine capabilities of the newer version of the destroyer, maybe this would explain why the UN forces never found the AUN´s sub-carrier.

28 Flight I and II Burkes were built and at least 5 are seen escorting the Asuka, but I assume there were at least 8 in the group, forming a protective ring around it with 3 on each side, one forward and another in the back.

But why an escort of just destroyers, not frigates or cruisers? the answer I found to this is stealth, it is suppossed to be an stealth fleet, and the Burkes are way more stealthy than the O H Perry frigates and the Ticonderoga cruisers, there is no point in having an stealth carrier with a non stealth escort.

The modifications made to the Burkes: the bow sonar is considerably larger, it has 2 small stabilization fins on each side of it, the normal propellers have been replaced by pod propellers* and the foremost chimmey has been reduced a bit to accomodate a block 1 phalanx, wich has a shorter barrel.

* - called 'azipods' - - Awesome detail indeed!

This image is a work in progress, so excuse the low res texture and the holes in the sonar.

The number on the hull of that ship appears to be 79, not 77.

DDG 77

USS O´Kane, escorting the Asuka, of the 4 vessels shown in the picture, one is the ill fated Algeciras, probably sold or transfered to the Marine Nationale, or just renamed in french after being part of a global navy.

Is the mentioned Algeciras destroyed? it got knocked out for sure, the bridge was destroyed leaving it headless, but the place the missile impacted could not cause it´s sinking....

The Nameless Advisor

www.macrossmecha.info

[nanashino]

No, I am not Nanashi

As for the gravity generators debate, I still think those sea going ship don´t need them, specially the Asuka, wich unlike the Prometheus was not submersible... still it does not clear the fact that those things look like grav. generators, so my guess is that maybe the OT generators are not task specific, I mean they could be used to generate raw power wich could be then converted into gravity, cynetic energy or the "ammunition" for the beam cannons?????

Also, lets analyze the process of lifting the Asuka into Space: First, all of the support aircraft would be useless as well as the VF-0, remember it has conventional engines because the nuclear ones could not be finished in time, so a space-going CVN is just a big and easy target, specially from below. On top of that, the Oberth space destroyer was already functioning by 2005, 3 years before Macross Zero.

Lets keep in mind that the Asuka represents the last of conventional warfare carriers it is stealth because it cannot submerge, this also makes it an easy targer for orbital bombardment, but a very dificult opponet for the more conventional planet based AUN forces. The class the Asuka belongs ended with CVN-100 I presume, the Prometheus being CVNS-101, right?

Corrections:

CVN-99 Asuka II

CVS-101 Prometheus

[op4_delta]

I am really glad you liked my 3D models, I hope to put them to use soon. good corrections too, do you have more info on the Asuka?

[Noyhauser]

The Macross Compendium does not state to wich block those phalanxes belong, they are listed here http://un-spacy-qmtdb.com/macross_page/uns...ls/asuka_ii.htm as block 1B and I agree with that, since the Asuka II was a very modern carrier. So I think that you are right with them being prioritized on fast movers or out of ammo.

Probably because the RPG site made it up. This is exactly why you shouldn't go dismissing the compedium like you did earlier. The reason why the compedium IS the bible is because it gives you exactly the amount of detail that BigWest made for it, not a stitch more or less.

I'm sure they didn't think what phalanx variant they animated... some animator may have just sketched one out from memory to what he "thought it should look like." You and the RPG website can add all the detail that you'd like, but its not Canon.

In any case I really like your CG stuff. Its nice to see this stuff rendered. Thanks for sharing.

Edited November 7, 2006 by Noyhauser

[op4_delta]

Well, I did not dissmissed the compendium entirely, I just said is not 100% reliable, at least for the Asuka entry. I use the compendium a lot, is the first place I go when researching macross stuff, but I trust my common sense first, like in the case of the OT beam cannon and the lenght of the ship. I guess it would be the same if I was building a Noah´s Arc 3D model (I really like the Bible-Compendium analogy ).

I am glad my models are well received, I am open to suggestions in how to use them or improve them.

[sketchley]

It is true that the people who make RPG stats do 'make stuff up,' but sometimes there are reasons for the inclusion. Sometimes they are very good (as in, other ships of a similar classification have them, it's a logical extension that these Macross ships should have them too (since cannon states nothing.))

Now, I'm not saying that you should trust Macross RPG stats entirely. What I am suggesting is that once trustyworthy things like the compendium, lineart, and Macross books are exhausted, look to RPG stats that have a bibliography. Those ones tend to have more thought put into them, and more care to make them as complete in the Macross universe as possibile. Just keep in mind that RPG stats are generally (or should be) created to fulfill the game and story needs of whatever system that they have been created for, and the needs, and possibly agenda of the particular game or person who created them.

Be careful when referencing them, as even the best created RPG stats sometimes have glaring omitions (internally carried weapons pallets on Macross 7 and beyond VFs are noticeably absent, or misdescribed. So too are rear firing missile launchers on one of the later incarnations of the engine nacelle FAST packs for the VF-11, and don't get me started on the hip grenades for the armoured VFs...)

The other suggestion is to add a disclaimer (when you make the final presentation) that though these ships that you've created are based on Macross fact, parts of them are non-cannon, and should be taken as non-cannon.

[op4_delta]

That indeed should be the procedure to fill the gaps of the compendium, still there are some obvious facts that are not included there and should not be labeled as non-canonical just for being absent, like the amphibious bay of the Asuka for example. On the other hand, as you propose, speculation is needed for things that are not evident, like the specific version of the phalanx, details like those are a necessity for games, since each variant of the weapon has different capabilities.

I forgot about the VLS launcher of the Asuka, any suggestions?

[op4_delta]

Well, seeing that this post is dead I will make some clarifications to give it an appropiate conclusion.

First, my infamous contradiction with the macross compendium about the Asuka: As a historian I know that the most dangerous enemy of any research work is what we call "repeating what the source says", I rely on facts and analisys deducted from observation. So even if the compendium is the greatest source, in wich I agree, I beleive what my eyes tell me, so the Asuka has an amphibious launch bay, 2 beam cannons and one sea sparrow launcher, all can be seen in the anime. The issue with the ship´s lenght is a different, the sompeendium says 250 meters aprox. wich would make it smaller that the Charles de Gaulle carrier and just a bit larger than the Invincible VTOL carrier, wich we know it´s absurd, but this statement is not a total mistake, since it may have originated in the concept art of Macross Zero.

In the image above we see 2 versions of the Asuka, the top one has 2 variants, long and short bow, the short one could measure about 250 meters in length, while the long one, able to carry the 2 front catapults was the one used in the OVA´s CG model. I don´t use the drawn model of the ship as reference, since it appears with different features in every shot. The bottom version of the ship is a futuristic catamaran that looks like a carrier and a destroyer welded together, I am happy this concept was not used.

Returning to the debated numbers of beam cannons carried, well the catamaran could explain that too, maybe only one was supposed to be mounted on the destroyer part of the dual hulled ship.

I hope I have cleared the anti-compendium aura I had, I do not hate the compendium I just think that we as macross fans should not be told what to think by following it blindly, having the answer before our eyes.

I leave you with my progress in the Asuka´s texturing.

[sketchley]

The bow feels... off somehow. I can't describe it exactly, but it doesn't look quite right.

Agreed on the Compendium stuff. As I have stated earlier (or elsewhere,) the compendium is mostly correct, but it does have errors and inconsistencies. If you want, here are some examples off of the top of my head:

Wrong number of conformally mounted missiles for the VF-4 (claims 6, when there is really 12.)

VF-4, VF-11 and VF-5000 contradict each other re: when which was the main fighter of the UNS.

Inconsistant use of Supervision Army and Inspection Army, when they are one and the same.

True, not large errors, but as a site dedicated to the small details...

[op4_delta]

The bow feels... off somehow. I can't describe it exactly, but it doesn't look quite right.

True, not large errors, but as a site dedicated to the small details...

Maybe is the angle I used and the posittion of the camera, because I have not modified the Asuka 3D model one bit, and now that you mention it, it does look quite elongated.

Agreed on the Compendium stuff. As I have stated earlier (or elsewhere,) the compendium is mostly correct, but it does have errors and inconsistencies. If you want, here are some examples off of the top of my head:

Wrong number of conformally mounted missiles for the VF-4 (claims 6, when there is really 12.)

VF-4, VF-11 and VF-5000 contradict each other re: when which was the main fighter of the UNS.

Inconsistant use of Supervision Army and Inspection Army, when they are one and the same.

True, not large errors, but as a site dedicated to the small details...

That´s why when in doubt one must ask in the Macross World forum

I will continue to post my progress with the Asuka here or in he fan works section wich seems more appropiate.

[Egan Loo]

I discovered a lot about the carrier on my own, enough to dispute the affirmation of it being a small scale carrier only 250 meters long, almost like the french CVN Charles de Gaulle.

If you're disputing the 250-meter-class length, you're disputing the creators' own words. It's even in the DVD liner notes.

On to the Asuka´s armament. Internet sources describe it with 5 Mk-15B phalanx CIWS, one of them is mounted on the island´s starboard side; 1 beam cannon, I discovered it has 2 beam cannons one on each side of the bow, notably the port beam cannon is destroyed by Nora in episode 3; and last, a VLS cell for anti-aircraft missiles, sea sparrow or SM-2, all those weapons along with the 6 destroids should give the carrier an incredible AAW capability.

Those units at the bow are not the OT beam gun that designer Kazutaka Miyatake listed in his design for the Asuka II. We don't see those bow units firing OT beams. On top of these, associate designer Junya Ishigaki added still more weapon systems that can be seen in Volume 3, but these haven't been spec'ed out.

By the way, that "Mk-15B" doesn't come from the creators. Neither the Macross creators nor the Macross Compendium ever said that there were specifically 5 CIWS units.

Edited November 28, 2006 by Egan Loo

[Egan Loo]

I still wonder why the macross compendiumstates that there is only one OT gun mounted on the Asuka.

Because that is what designer Kazutaka Miyatake wrote in his notes. You're mistaking the OT beam gun for something else.

[azrael]

I don't think we've ever said that the Compendium was the greatest source of Macross info. But it is one of the more complete sites out there.

In the image above we see 2 versions of the Asuka, the top one has 2 variants, long and short bow, the short one could measure about 250 meters in length, while the long one, able to carry the 2 front catapults was the one used in the OVA´s CG model.

The design seen in the animation was probably the final design used. Those shown in the picture are more likely to be the initial designs.

Wrong number of conformally mounted missiles for the VF-4 (claims 6, when there is really 12.)

That's called "being vague".

Six long-range missiles semi-recessed on engine nacelles and underfuselage in Fighter Mode or on underfuselage, lower arms, and legs in GERWALK and Battroid modes.

It doesn't say on "each" part listed. If you feel that this needs to be clarified, send an e-mail to Egan.

VF-4, VF-11 and VF-5000 contradict each other re: when which was the main fighter of the UNS.

Inconsistant use of Supervision Army and Inspection Army, when they are one and the same.

If you want Egan to clarify this, send an e-mail. I've done this a few times. There's no harm in sending in corrections.

First, my infamous contradiction with the macross compendium about the Asuka: As a historian I know that the most dangerous enemy of any research work is what we call "repeating what the source says", I rely on facts and analisys deducted from observation.

The more facts and technical details you inject into the story, the more you are confined to that material and the more limits you impose in story telling.

If you want Egan to fill the Compendium with additional information, feel free to submit it to him or provide some help to him.

[Egan Loo]

We should revise what the Macross Compendium has, specially the size of the Asuka, with only 250 meters in length

Revising the 250-meter class statistic for the Asuka II would be revising the creators' own words. They themselves set the length of the craft as being "small-scale" in the "250-meter class." That's even written in the Volume 4 liner notes. It is deliberately smaller than the biggest carriers today, in fitting with the story setting. Keep in mind that the creators never said it was exactly 250 meters long, just that it is in the "250-meter class."

it would be about the size of the british Invincible Class VTOL carrier, and lets face it, you cant squeeze 4 catapults and 4 elevator in the Invincible.

The Invincible-class carrier is only 194 meters in length, not 250-meter class.

[Egan Loo]

Macross Compendium is a great site and I have nothing against it, but we should not follow it blindly or try to accomodate our ideas to fit in their descriptions.

In the case of Asuka's size and the OT beam gun, it would be the creators' own words that fans would be following, and the creators' own descriptions that fans should accommodate their ideas.