Asuka II Carrier Battle Group

[sketchley]

Now, if you want me to really confuse you, Perfect Memory list those same objects as the gravity generators. Now, if those are the AG generators...why are they back in episode 7?

It's very possible that the original generators, once they were out of the hull, lost power, and fell back to the island - subsequently being folded along with the SDF-1, and being salvaged from the wreckage of the island. That, or new ones (that worked properly ) were built inside of the SDF-1 during it's return voyage. They definitely had the means, materials, and time, as during the same period, they kept their fighters well stocked, made new fighters, and not only built an entire city inside the ship, but rebuilt it after it was destroyed when the ship transformed at Saturn! Despite it only being 4 episodes later, a number of months passed.

Now the funny thing about those anti-gravity engines (as per Macross Perfect Memory,) they are always and ONLY seen immediately before a ship begins using anti-gravity.

There is nothing in the lineart contained within Macross Perfect Memory on the 'main engines' of the SDF-1, however, the fold drive can be seen both before (pg. 144) and after (pg. 145) the fold to Pluto, and after (pg. 143) the barrier system has been installed where the fold drive used to be.

"Macross Special Preview: Do you remember love?" states that the lower 1/3 of the lower legs are the "main reaction engine" - which makes sense, as that is where the engine nozels are. The upper 2/3 of the lower legs contain the food (life necessity) production block, and (civilian) living quarters in the starboard, and the "busy city" in the port. The military block is in the central chest, with the main waste (garbage) incinerator composing the spine. The two "breasts" contain the sub-reaction engine, and the anti-gravity engines, and the two 'prongs' above the shoulders contain the 'booster cannon.' (pg. 44) No pictures of the actual main engines, but some groovy picts of a young Mari Iijima, and some funky model kit bashes.

[daeudi]

Not trying to flame anyone, but is Op4 really Nanashi? The ... style... seems the same.

[Knight26]

I think he definitely is not, Nanashi, no offense, would just pull images from sources and then claim ownership. Op4 is trying to actually do real research into the subjects and then build 3D models, if anything he his a 3-D modelling version of Egan.

[Sundown]

I like to look at things from a storytelling perspective:

Modern day-ish ships with anti-gravity generators that can presumably float them into space-- Good storytelling? Not really, because the usefulness of floating such ships seems dubious to me, for the reasons others have pointed out.

Ships that float just like rocks that float, both under the influence of alien/mystical powers-- Good storytelling? Yes. The AFOS being able to lift an entire carrier battle group demonstrates the magnitude of its power, and contrasts it with the similar power Sara exhibits earlier, albiet at a much smaller scale.

Requiring viewers to reference a 24 year old animation in order to understand why ships are really floating-- Good storytelling? No. Macross Zero makes no mention of anti-gravity generators, and most viewers would reasonably conclude that the ships float entirely because of the AFOS, especially after seeing Sara's ability to do a similar thing and being told that her people are under influence of the same alien power. It strikes me as extremely poor storytelling to imply one thing, when the truth can only be deduced by referencing an anime series two decades old.

Showing what appear to be engines, but are actually anti-gravity generators, without making any mention of what they really are, the nature of which can be deduced only after lengthy and creative gymnastics with old anime cels-- Good storytelling? No. For the engines shown in Macross Zero to be anti-gravity generators, we would have to do exactly what was done here: assume similar-looking engines in Macross SDF were also anti-grav generators, and not plain old OT fusion reactors, then create fiction to explain why they were shown to be aboard the SDF-1 after they were dramatically ripped from its hull with no further mention of them afterwards. If the generators were removed from the ship with such dramatic flair, one would expect at least some mention of them if they were later recovered. It would be reasonable to think that they were never recovered, especially when they seemed to be mostly useless. For the generators to be recovered, not only would Macross Zero be guilty of poor story-telling, but SDF Macross as well.

So, do I think the Asuka battle group can float into space? No. Because it requires too much stretching, reaching, careful attention to a 24 year old anime, and off-screen storytelling to come to that conclusion, one at odds with what Mac Zero, on a straightforward viewing, actually seems to portray.

[sketchley]

(...) For the engines shown in Macross Zero to be anti-gravity generators, we would have to do exactly what was done here: assume similar-looking engines in Macross SDF were also anti-grav generators, and not plain old OT fusion reactors, (...)

For the generators to be recovered, not only would Macross Zero be guilty of poor story-telling, but SDF Macross as well.

Good points. Save that the similar looking engines in the SDF-1 ARE described as anti-gravity generators, in Japanese.

Macross Zero is guilty of poor story-telling (start of episode 5, for example,) and so too is SDF:M. Mind you, would it be interesting to see the crew recovering and replacing the anti-gravity generators? No, it takes away from the main storyline of the show, and what the creators want to do in it.

Keep in mind that stranger things have occured in fiction. A recent example would be Star Trek: Enterprise, and how it set up events that were part of a TV series produced some 30 years before it. Macross Zero also makes similar assumptions of it's viewers, in as much as that they are aware of some of the basic concepts of Macross - transforming VFs, OT,(giant sized) aliens, and the power of song/music. I guess it also falls into the nature of the audience too - some audiences want or need all the little detail, whereas others either like the mystery, or can figure things out on their own.

All that is being asked is that things be looked at with an open mind. This could very well be one of those cases of 'just because the ships can, doesn't mean that they will.' Or, why was the crew of the Asuka so relaxed when their ship started to float in the air? Even with discipline there appeared to be no surprise that the ship is floating, and carrier operations continued normally. I can agree that the birdman instigated, and possibly controlled the anti-gravity generators, but I beg to differ on the actual means of propultion.

Edited October 27, 2006 by sketchley

[Sundown]

Macross Zero is guilty of poor story-telling (start of episode 5, for example,) and so too is SDF:M. Mind you, would it be interesting to see the crew recovering and replacing the anti-gravity generators? No, it takes away from the main storyline of the show, and what the creators want to do in it.

Yet a brief mention by Global, that scientist guy that always shows up, or a bridge bunny would get the point across. Without any further mention, the most reasonable assumption is that the generators weren't replaced. The engines being labelled generators could be an error-- I don't know if they're labelled otherwise in other sources.

Macross Zero does differ from Enterprise in one important respect: Kawamori has stated outright that he was unconcerned about strict continuity, while Enterprise pretends to care about continuity then botches it up. =) I tend to think the ideas you suggest would require the audience to jump through too many hoops to be plausible, as neat as they kind of are. But I think the fact that almost all of us still think the battle group's floating was entirely due to the AFOS, and that you appear to be the lone exception, suggests that either Zero's storytelling was horrendous or we're all a bunch of idiots.

In the end, I don't know how it serves the story to have ships appear to float for one reason, but actually float for another, the latter of which is not told to the viewer and requires deduction and knowledge that would be considered somewhat obscure to most of M0's viewers. In this case, it makes more sense to me just to accept what M0 appears to be showing.

And I still can't think of a good reason to install anti-grav generators on small naval destroyers, which were also shown to float.

[op4_delta]

Not trying to flame anyone, but is Op4 really Nanashi? The ... style... seems the same.

No, I am not Nanashi

As for the gravity generators debate, I still think those sea going ship don´t need them, specially the Asuka, wich unlike the Prometheus was not submersible... still it does not clear the fact that those things look like grav. generators, so my guess is that maybe the OT generators are not task specific, I mean they could be used to generate raw power wich could be then converted into gravity, cynetic energy or the "ammunition" for the beam cannons?????

Also, lets analyze the process of lifting the Asuka into Space: First, all of the support aircraft would be useless as well as the VF-0, remember it has conventional engines because the nuclear ones could not be finished in time, so a space-going CVN is just a big and easy target, specially from below. On top of that, the Oberth space destroyer was already functioning by 2005, 3 years before Macross Zero.

Lets keep in mind that the Asuka represents the last of conventional warfare carriers it is stealth because it cannot submerge, this also makes it an easy targer for orbital bombardment, but a very dificult opponet for the more conventional planet based AUN forces. The class the Asuka belongs ended with CVN-100 I presume, the Prometheus being CVNS-101, right?

[op4_delta]

And please read my earlier post on the modified Arleigh Burke, this topic has become a "grav generator yes or no" insteand of a place to talk about the Asuka CVBG, I don´t mean to be rude, but I think we should reach an agreement on the debate and move on to the Asuka.

[Graham]

Here's the only lineart pic I've been able to find of the Asuka, from the official M0 DVD booklet.

There are some CG pics of various parts of the ship in the Tenjin Valkyries artbook. op4_delta, do you have that book?

Graham

P.S. op4_delta, no pics allowed in sigs, please remove

[GrimlockCW]

i've just a small question regarding one of the earliest posts about the Ships being air tight.

When in BC they constantly forced a point into my skull about the Ships doors being WATER tight and NOT air tight at all...

didn't make sense then, doesn't now, but, thats what they was saying bout our ships

so basicly i'm asking a semi O/T thing and pointing out something they tell people in the USN.

Which is it for cripes sake?!

i always figured if it was water tight, it had to be air tight, cause if the air got out, wouldn't something have the replace it?

On the topic of the carriers doors being open, during a time of combat operations, or when in a high level of security, as they should've been after the Macross fired its cannon.

the standard procedure would be to seal more than half the doors and vent shafts on the ship as security and safety measures.

what probably happened to the crews of those ships was the ventilation systems were never properly sealed, or they just didn't follow procedure at all

wish i could remember the exact code for it.. i dun think it was circle zebra... maybe it was the Circle X-Ray setting... cause i recall a few drills we had where them doors were sealed, and that closed 3/4 of the ship down, making me happy i worked the flight deck

been on both the CV and CVN's and i gotta say, them CVN's BIG!!

specialy the Reagan... oye, i can't count how often i got lost trying to find the head my first time on that sucker... to get to work i just hopped the FD and said to hell with the internals

its interanals are considerably differant than other CVN's honestly, and i don't see how they kept it as a "Nimitz" class vessel... other than the fact no others of its type are to be produced since the aircraft project it was designed/built for was canceled shortly before it was completed...

heh, that extra catch wire was useful for the newb pilots though

Edited October 28, 2006 by GrimlockCW

[anime52k8]

one last thing about the who's makeing what float; in ep5 at about 8:30 one of the bridge crew on the asuka says (in my copies subtitles) "AFOS has gotten into the fleet's reactor! it is controling Gravity!" to me that sound like that the AFOS activated the asukas OT reactors, and basicly leached power form them to regenerate itself, and to rase the ships out of the water.

Edited October 28, 2006 by anime52k8

[sketchley]

Yet a brief mention by Global, that scientist guy that always shows up, or a bridge bunny would get the point across. Without any further mention, the most reasonable assumption is that the generators weren't replaced. The engines being labelled generators could be an error-- I don't know if they're labelled otherwise in other sources.

Remember, this is a Japanese animation. In Japan, what is not said is sometimes just as meaningful and important, if not MORE meaningful and important, than what is said. With the Japanese language, it's best to consider that if it is not directly mentioned, it is open to possibility. Graham mentioned this earlier in this very thread - and I am of the belief that he is aware of this because of where he lives (HK, the last I heard.) People of Asian cultures have a different perceptions of the world than of those cultures that originated in Europe.

In the end, I don't know how it serves the story to have ships appear to float for one reason, but actually float for another, the latter of which is not told to the viewer and requires deduction and knowledge that would be considered somewhat obscure to most of M0's viewers. In this case, it makes more sense to me just to accept what M0 appears to be showing.

And I still can't think of a good reason to install anti-grav generators on small naval destroyers, which were also shown to float.

I have always been of the opinion that the Birdman was what initiated, and controlled the ship(s) anti-gravity. I merely differ on the location of the means of locomotion.

The destroyers are another issue on their own - they were also floating, and by the opinion in the preceeding paragraph, the Birdman caused them to float to. It is equally possible that they have anti-gravity generators, as it is for them to be effected by the anti-gravity generator(s) inside of the Asuka II (either the birdman, or the carrier, or both.)

The only good reason for having the destroyers float is to remain at the carrier's side if it were to levitate to orbit - thus maintaining their roles as escorts.

Also, lets analyze the process of lifting the Asuka into Space: First, all of the support aircraft would be useless as well as the VF-0, remember it has conventional engines because the nuclear ones could not be finished in time, so a space-going CVN is just a big and easy target, specially from below. On top of that, the Oberth space destroyer was already functioning by 2005, 3 years before Macross Zero.

Lets keep in mind that the Asuka represents the last of conventional warfare carriers it is stealth because it cannot submerge, this also makes it an easy targer for orbital bombardment, but a very dificult opponet for the more conventional planet based AUN forces. The class the Asuka belongs ended with CVN-100 I presume, the Prometheus being CVNS-101, right?

Yes, and no. It was shown that the VF-0 can operate for short periods of time with the air intakes closed. There is also the possibility of FAST packs and additional manuevering thrusters that can be added. Of course we should keep in mind that the VF-1 was already designed at the time, and the only delays in its release were due to the thermonuclear reaction engines. Its entirely possible that when the design of the Asuka II was approved, UNS felt that by the time the ship was deployed, there'd be a compliment of VF-1 for it. There is also the possibility of replacing it's compliment with the space fighters available at the time (Hound Dog, Lancer II, etc..)

Of course, this is speculation, and the Asuka II could simply be a test bed for some of the reverse engineered OT found on the SDF-1 - the prelude to the Prometheus.

Agreed that the first three Oberth space destroyers were launched in 2005 (with a total of 125 by the battle with Bodolza) - but remember the history of those first three destroyers - one is hijacked by the anti-UN and used to destroy the returning 'fleet' from Mars, and later being destroyed by another destroyer under the command of Gloval.

The Prometheus was 'commissioned' in 2005 - presumably the Asuka II was some time before then.

The ARMD (space carriers) were not, however, commissioned until 2009 and later. Meaning that there was no space going carriers until then - thus giving some need to having (conventional) carriers equipped with anti-gravity to perform carrier operations, if needed, in orbit.

BTW, IMHO, this discussion of anti-gravity generator or not is relevant to a discussion of the Asuka II. Apologies if you feel otherwise.

Grimlock - I was thinking about your post, and the conclusion that I came to is that in navel or ocean-going craft terminology, watertight predates the concept of airtight. There is also less explanation needed when someone mentiones watertight to a mariner (water is kept out = good.)

I agree with your thoughts about the fate of those on the Prometheus and Daedelus - perhaps the translations are incorrect, and most, if not all, of the crew that was inside of the ship survived - with only those outside, on the flightdeck, being killed.

one last thing about the who's makeing what float; in ep5 at about 8:30 one of the bridge crew on the asuka says (in my copies subtitles) "AFOS has gotten into the fleet's reactor! it is controling Gravity!" to me that sound like that the AFOS activated the asukas OT reactors, and basicly leached power form them to regenerate itself, and to rase the ships out of the water.

I have that fan sub too, and to be honest, the line makes no sense whatsoever. It implies that the birdman has taken control of gravity away from Earth! In episode 4 the fansubber has Nora requesting nuclear weapons to bomb Mayan Island - a completely retarded, tactical blunder! They want to capture the Birdman, not irradiate it so that any scientists investigating it die in the process. Not to mention that the bombs at the end of the episode don't explode like a nuclear bomb - they do explode like fuel-air bombs, which is in agreement with what the compendium states that the SV-51 is able to carry: Daisy Cutter fuel-air bombs.

Bad English and bad fansubs aside, IMHO, I think the line should be "it is controlling anti-gravity." Though, without the actual Japanese script, the line could be something that the fansubber made up entirely - the Nora/nuke thing leaves me with high doubts about that fansubbers competence with the Japanese language...

Edited October 28, 2006 by sketchley

[Zinjo]

Bad English and bad fansubs aside, IMHO, I think the line should be "it is controlling anti-gravity." Though, without the actual Japanese script, the line could be something that the fansubber made up entirely - the Nora/nuke thing leaves me with high doubts about that fansubbers competence with the Japanese language...

Seems to me like the line should be, "It's controlling gravity", implying it has power over gravity as opposed to some unecessary AG generators.

[op4_delta]

Here's the only lineart pic I've been able to find of the Asuka, from the official M0 DVD booklet.

There are some CG pics of various parts of the ship in the Tenjin Valkyries artbook. op4_delta, do you have that book?

Graham

P.S. op4_delta, no pics allowed in sigs, please remove

That´s a great pic, I take it it´s a concept art, because the island and mast are different, but the hull and flightdeck are the same, it also proves my findings on the location of the elevators.

I do not have that book, sorry, but those things are hard to get in my country.

I am sorry about the signature, freshman´s mistake.

[GrimlockCW]

heh, thanks for the thaught Sketch

they actualy insisted that water tight didn't mean air tight when i was there, but like i said, that just doesn't make sense.

like i said though, who knows, maybe the people on them ships just didn't follow procedures correctly in some way and had left the hatches open, or never sealed the vent shafts off (as it get HOT AS FU*& in parts of the ship without the vents open!! + it cuts off a LOT of your oxygen flow, we had half the ship without power at one point while i was in the Gulf a Mexico for a pre-deployment run, no power, no water, no air flow, it sucked to be there, of 8 generators we had 1 working! and they STILL deployed that thing!! ugh...)

Anywho, it could be that, or the translation error as you mentioned.

but there has to be a better explanation than "they just died because it was in space"

since military procedure would've saved the lot of them, or neglecting it would've killed them.

and i apologize about the mini random rants in these posts, bad memories of my favorite work places

[anime52k8]

I have that fan sub too, and to be honest, the line makes no sense whatsoever. It implies that the birdman has taken control of gravity away from Earth! In episode 4 the fansubber has Nora requesting nuclear weapons to bomb Mayan Island - a completely retarded, tactical blunder! They want to capture the Birdman, not irradiate it so that any scientists investigating it die in the process. Not to mention that the bombs at the end of the episode don't explode like a nuclear bomb - they do explode like fuel-air bombs, which is in agreement with what the compendium states that the SV-51 is able to carry: Daisy Cutter fuel-air bombs.

Bad English and bad fansubs aside, IMHO, I think the line should be "it is controlling anti-gravity." Though, without the actual Japanese script, the line could be something that the fansubber made up entirely - the Nora/nuke thing leaves me with high doubts about that fansubbers competence with the Japanese language...

right, except that my sub is NOT the Crapy fansub that you have (it gets the Fuel-air bomb, not nuke thing right for one) My copy of Mac0 has a very good translation. IMHO, I think the line is correct and I still think that what we see is the ships Reactors which the AFOS is using basicly as a jumpstart.

[sketchley]

right, except that my sub is NOT the Crapy fansub that you have (it gets the Fuel-air bomb, not nuke thing right for one) My copy of Mac0 has a very good translation. IMHO, I think the line is correct and I still think that what we see is the ships Reactors which the AFOS is using basicly as a jumpstart.

Agreed that i have a crappy fansub of episode 4, disagreed that I am the only one with a crappy fansub of episode 5.

By the dialogue of the ships crew preceeding the activation of the (anti-gravity) generators, the impression I am left with is that the Birdman is powering itself, and not using the ship's systems as a jump-start. Visually it would be different too - arcs of electrical power, etc. were not seen. My impression is that the activation of the Birdman caused the (anti-gravity) generators to be activated as well - the mysteries of OT. It has been seen before with the buster cannon of the SDF-1 in the first episode of SDF:M.

In addition, no shots of engines nor generators being powered up on the Anti-UN submarine were seen either. Neither were there power drains evident on either ship, adding further support to whatever happened being not a jumpstart, but secondary reactions due to the activation of the Birdman.

See my preceeding post for my thoughts on the bad English in the line.

[Graham]

My take on things is that only the Asuka has AG generators, and these were activated by the AFOS.

The AFOS was able to control Asuka's AG field strength and size, so that the AG field was large enough to lift the whole battlegroup and the Anti-UN sub out of the water.

As for why? Maybe the AFOS just wanted a closer look?

Graham

[David Hingtgen]

Becuase HFH thought it'd look cool on-screen, that's why.

[op4_delta]

Ok, since no one cared to read it, I decided to repost it. Please lets conclude the generator thing and discuss the topic´s subject.

Here is a bit more info on the main subject of this topic, the vessels and aircraft conforming the Asuka´s CVBG.

On to the Arleigh Burke missile destroyers: The entire group of escorts the Asuka had were modified Flight I and Flight II Burkes, there is not a single Flight IIA to be seen in the group, depriving the battle group of the extended anti submarine capabilities of the newer version of the destroyer, maybe this would explain why the UN forces never found the AUN´s sub-carrier.

28 Flight I and II Burkes were built and at least 5 are seen escorting the Asuka, but I assume there were at least 8 in the group, forming a protective ring around it with 3 on each side, one forward and another in the back.

But why an escort of just destroyers, not frigates or cruisers? the answer I found to this is stealth, it is suppossed to be an stealth fleet, and the Burkes are way more stealthy than the O H Perry frigates and the Ticonderoga cruisers, there is no point in having an stealth carrier with a non stealth escort.

The modifications made to the Burkes: the bow sonar is considerably larger, it has 2 small stabilization fins on each side of it, the normal propellers have been replaced by pod propellers and the foremost chimmey has been reduced a bit to accomodate a block 1 phalanx, wich has a shorter barrel.

This image is a work in progress, so excuse the low res texture and the holes in the sonar.

DDG 77

USS O´Kane, escorting the Asuka, of the 4 vessels shown in the picture, one is the ill fated Algeciras, probably sold or transfered to the Marine Nationale, or just renamed in french after being part of a global navy.

Is the mentioned Algeciras destroyed? it got knocked out for sure, the bridge was destroyed leaving it headless, but the place the missile impacted could not cause it´s sinking....

[Zinjo]

My take on things is that only the Asuka has AG generators, and these were activated by the AFOS.

The AFOS was able to control Asuka's AG field strength and size, so that the AG field was large enough to lift the whole battlegroup and the Anti-UN sub out of the water.

As for why? Maybe the AFOS just wanted a closer look?

Graham

Why would the Asuka II need AG generators? What I am reading is wild speculation as to why.

There is no evidence other than similar looking generation units in one shot.

The ship has open elevators and catapults, which is fine for an atmospheric AC, but are senseless for space based ACs. The ARMD carriers launched aircraft via launch arms, none of that is present on the Asuka II. There is no visible space thruster system which would allow the ship to manuever in space if it were to fly there and once outside of the Earth's gravity, would NEED them to get back.

The idea of a submersible carrier is a stretch, to take it to the level of a purposely built space capable naval AC is going way beyond credible IMO.

The Macross had AG fields because it was a SPACE SHIP, we don't see transatmospheric ships in regular use until the 2040's.

Then there is the story aspect to it. Why bother showing Sara's ability to levitate stones if the AFOS doesn't share that ability on a larger scale?

If the AFOS with all it's incredible ancient technology (the technology that was apparently capable of creating bio engineered space monster weaponry shown in Mac 7) is incapable of levitating a group of ships similar to how Sara levitated stones, then that whole Sara scene was pointless and really didn't further the story at all. It wasn't any sort of foreshadowing, just a cool effect to show the audience

Sara could sing stones into levitating. Big deal...

Somehow, I suspect SK is a better story teller than that...

Edited October 29, 2006 by Zinjo

[GrimlockCW]

but then explain how the ships stayed afloat after the AFOS had left them, instead of crashing back into the water like oh so much heavy metal would

mayhap the AFOS had converted the Asuka's generators in some form? and thats where the Macross's design game from?

[op4_delta]

but then explain how the ships stayed afloat after the AFOS had left them, instead of crashing back into the water like oh so much heavy metal would

mayhap the AFOS had converted the Asuka's generators in some form? and thats where the Macross's design game from?

I commented this a few posts above, the UN ships did not fall to the ocean right away for 2 reasosn, the anty gravity thing the birdman does is not an instant effect, it has "fade-ins" and "fade-outs". It took the birdman sometime to get the Asuka levitating on the air, also, when the birman left, it´s power faded, not just dissapeared; besides, letting the carrier fall would mean killing the mayan islanders.

Now being a bit rude, I feel like levitating this whole gravity discussion out of the carrier battle group topic.

[Knight26]

We've derailed this topic enough with discussing the AG generators, Sketchley why don't you make another topic on the subject?

[sketchley]

? Moi?

I've said all that there needs to be said, to date, and the opposition to the debate hasn't said anything new, or added anything that hasn't already been addressed previously. In addition, a few of the other posters are either directly supporting, or appear to be open to the possibility of some of the evidence, and concepts that I have been presenting.

The only things that I have to add, is that I have been mulling over are the actual capabilities of the Destroyers. I'll be happy if they are recognized as being water/airtight (for the very least, as chemical/biological/nuclear warfare protection,) and that they have the capabilities to carry the Cheyenne Destroid.

I think that, despite it not being directly seen in the animation, the carrier fleet is supported by a handful of submarines. For the simple reason of the added protection the sub-hunting subs provide.

Edited October 30, 2006 by sketchley

[op4_delta]

I agree, modern warships with NBC protection, have air filtration systems, capable of isolating the ship from the contaminated enviroment. Also at least the lower bulkheads have to be water/air tight, so a flooded compartment could be sealed off from the rest of the ship.

As for the destroyers being able to support the cheyenne... I think this needs to be analyzed in depth, the Asuka escorts were all modified Flight I or II Arleigh Burke DDG´s wich can support but not maintain helicpters, so my guess is that the cheyennes could be rearmed during battles at the ship´s landing pads, but not carried the whole way since those vessels have no hangars. An alternative to this, would be to have the cheyennes fastened with cables to the landing pads, but for the destroid to move from the rear to the bow, it would have to perform a short jump using the jetpack, since carrying the thing on the bow gets in the way of the 5 inch gun and maybe the VLS cell.

As for the submarines, at least 2 attack subs should be escorting the Asuka II, but they are not shown in the OVA, but this may be related to the fact that Macross is more air oriented than underwater oriented, and a submarine battle a la red october would take too much time away from the main focus of the anime.

More interesting is the fact that the AUN´s sub-carrier is seen escorted by 2 destroyers, shouldn´t be 2 subs instead?

[Zinjo]

I'm still trying to find the location of the Destroid elevators on the Carrier...

Though one would think that the AUN sub would be escorted by other subs, the only time it would need surface protection is when it surfaced itself and from what I recall it rarely, if ever, did.

As for Sketch's comments about his detractors not posting anything new, that is simply because no new arguments from his end were posted to rebut, just expansions of existing speculated premises.

[op4_delta]

I'm still trying to find the location of the Destroid elevators on the Carrier...

Though one would think that the AUN sub would be escorted by other subs, the only time it would need surface protection is when it surfaced itself and from what I recall it rarely, if ever, did.

As for Sketch's comments about his detractors not posting anything new, that is simply because no new arguments from his end were posted to rebut, just expansions of existing speculated premises.

The carrier does not have sepparate elevators for destroids, it uses the 4 main elevators for this purpose, it´s destroid complement is deployed via the aft bay, by amphibious craft. However, it has those destroid tubes behind the island that act as some kind of bunkers or emplacements.

Indeed, the AUN sub carrier would be escorted by other subs, Akulas I pressume, but Macross Zero has very little footage on the Auerstadt and the type of escorts it had, but I bet those 2 destroyers scorting it were Sovremennys since all of the hardare shown is russian.

I agree the whole gravity generator thing got repetitive, I personally think those purple things were just reactors, as a matter of fact they turn purple, the color of the birdman, but this only implies that the birman was influencing them, it does not give a clue of what they were. So the debate could go on and on and we don´t want that.

[Garou Kuroryuu]

The carrier does not have sepparate elevators for destroids, it uses the 4 main elevators for this purpose, it´s destroid complement is deployed via the aft bay, by amphibious craft. However, it has those destroid tubes behind the island that act as some kind of bunkers or emplacements.

Indeed, the AUN sub carrier would be escorted by other subs, Akulas I pressume, but Macross Zero has very little footage on the Auerstadt and the type of escorts it had, but I bet those 2 destroyers scorting it were Sovremennys since all of the hardare shown is russian.

I agree the whole gravity generator thing got repetitive, I personally think those purple things were just reactors, as a matter of fact they turn purple, the color of the birdman, but this only implies that the birman was influencing them, it does not give a clue of what they were. So the debate could go on and on and we don´t want that.

Agree on the tired AG generator discussion.

On the CVBG, you've done an excellent job with those renderings. I was also particular interested in Asuka II line-art, thanks to Graham for that one. Just a favor, could you take a closer look to the island section of the FD? I'm interested in how you rendered the destroyer silos (to call them some way) and the details of the bridge windows, which I believe look really cool, thou somewhat "artistic" to tell the truth.

Regarding the escort, besides the idea that there should be at least 2 subs, I'd add that they should be Virginia-like class attack subs (following the idea that UNN used US-derived ships and AUN forces, Russian derived ones), perhaps with some OT/stealth improvements. Thou as I can remember, we never get to see a sub in the OVAs

[Lightning]

as to all the ships floating in the air: maybe it's 'cause the APHOS wanted a better shot at the ships? (it's a lot easier to hit something floating in the air that's at "eye-level" than something sitting 1000 feet below you in the water...)

[Garou Kuroryuu]

as to all the ships floating in the air: maybe it's 'cause the APHOS wanted a better shot at the ships? (it's a lot easier to hit something floating in the air that's at "eye-level" than something sitting 1000 feet below you in the water...)

Or perhaps a side effect of lifting the Asuka? Like an effect-bubble large enough to take the escorts up along with the "target", pretty much like what happened with the Macross fold taking the whole island and sorrounding waters.

[Knight26]

IIRC the sub carrier was undergoing a transfer or cargo onload immediately prior to the attack right? If so then those two destroyers were probably not escorts, they were just there to provide unrep.

As for the Asuka-II's escorts, yes there should have been more, but remember there was a war on the whole Mayan island op was top secret. So, they would have kept the whole task force to a minimum, and using only "stealthy" ships would also help to conceal the task force. Not that helped them against the Anti-UN forces there.

[op4_delta]

For Knight26: I agree on both things.

The surface units could compromise the Auerstadt´s cover location, maybe the AUN destroyers were scorting a conventional aircraft carrier, since in the final battle we see those strange looking Mig-29´s with the diagonal cannard planes. I know the Fulcrum we see in chapter one is not a naval aircraft, but the ones I am tolking about are different. Also, the Auerstadt can only carry 20 Sv-51´s, a force only capable of surgical and covert strikes, but for a large scale naval battle additional wupport would be needed, in the form of the Mig-29´s.

Escorting the Asuka we only see 5 Burke destroyers, but there should be more, specially on it´s port flank in wich only 1 is shown, you are also right in the covert origin of the mission, that is why we dont see any cruisers or frigates that could be detected for being non stealth, for that reason the entire battle group is made up of stealth destroyers.

For Garou Kuroryuu, I am still working on the island, the saw edges of the windows are a bit triky to make, I will upload a pic as soon as I have something decent to show. The destroid tubes are quite interesting, is like having 12 phalanxes in a very small place.

[Sundown]

Just wanted to make a few quick and last points, more about Eastern cultures and aesthetics than anything.

Remember, this is a Japanese animation. In Japan, what is not said is sometimes just as meaningful and important, if not MORE meaningful and important, than what is said. With the Japanese language, it's best to consider that if it is not directly mentioned, it is open to possibility.

Yet, in Japanese animation, what's unsaid is still usually implied. I see very little impliciation in M0 that the ships use Anti-Grav generators. And furthermore, whether they use Anti-Grav generators or not is largely unimportant to the storytelling, and thus, wouldn't qualify as "important enough to omit their mention for subtlety's sake."

Graham mentioned this earlier in this very thread - and I am of the belief that he is aware of this because of where he lives (HK, the last I heard.) People of Asian cultures have a different perceptions of the world than of those cultures that originated in Europe.

I also feel there's some misunderstanding of the Asian cultures mentioned here. Hong Kong culture is very different from Japanese culture, and I've never known in Chinese storytelling the tendency to elevate the importance of story details through outright omission. Being Chinese, I can't speak for Japanese culture directly, but I suspect that both cultures value subtlety in storytelling over direct exposition-- through the use of suggestion and implication-- ie, highlighting inescapable conclusions in a story by what isn't said rather than by what is said.

But this doesn't mean that anything is possible and is perhaps even probable, just because it wasn't mentioned directly in the storytelling. Ie, the AFOS probably isn't powered by pink (alien) leprechauns, and we don't have to entertain the idea just because the Japanese dialogue in M0 doesn't explicitly eliminate that possibility.

Anyway, AG discussion aside, just wanted to clarify the differences between Eastern and Western culture with regards to storytelling. The Eastern aesthetic of leaving certain things unsaid isn't some sort of license to analyze, dissect, ret-con, and fill in every detail for ourselves in our distinctively Western way. If a plot element is unclear, we are meant to wonder, speculate and be satisfied in not knowing. We aren't meant to stretch, reach, and dig up cels from 24 years ago to support a tenuous conclusion barely supported by a straightforward viewing of of a particular work of fiction, as fun as it all is. =)

Edited October 31, 2006 by Sundown

[Knight26]

Man that Fulcrum is about to get spanked. Those are some wierd fulcrums, I remember a long time ago we were trying to determine just what model MiG-29 they were based on. The conclusion was that they weren't just like the F-14s they were a mix, and the canards were just tacked on their and look really bad since they make no sense on a MiG-29.