Asuka II Carrier Battle Group

[op4_delta]

When I first saw Macross Zero I fell in love with the design of the Asuka II stealth carrier, I rushed to the internet to seek some info about it but I could not found too much info and only a few images. My objective was to create a 3D model of the Asuka to be used in real time strategy games or flight simulators, and in my quest I discovered a lot about the carrier on my own, enough to dispute the affirmation of it being a small scale carrier only 250 meters long, almost like the french CVN Charles de Gaulle.

The Asuka could be taken as a Macross version of the US Navy´s CVNX project, the stealth design is one of it´s main features, it also has a capacity equal or very close to a Nimitz aircraft carrier and almost the same size, 320 meters aprox. Why do I dare to make such assumption?. since I could not find a lineart, I used 2 elements as rference, the catapults and the elevators. The elevators of the Asuka can take 2 fighters at a time, just like the Nimitz, and their layout is almost the same, only 2 elevators have been moved from the place they would occupy on the Nimitz flightdeck. The catapults also cover the same length and are in the same possitions as in a Nimitz carrier.

Using the 2 elements mentioned above as reference I began building my Asuka with a Nimitz lineart and a lot of screen captures from the OVA and this are my findings.

The Asuka´s flightdeck has less space to park aircraft than a Nimitz carrier, one reason is the large island and it´s silos to house the Cheyenne CIWS destroids the other is that parked aircraft increase the radar echoes, specially if they are not stealthy, like the S-3 vikings and the SeaHawk helicopters.

On to the Asuka´s armament. Internet sources describe it with 5 Mk-15B phalanx CIWS, one of them is mounted on the island´s starboard side; 1 beam cannon, I discovered it has 2 beam cannons one on each side of the bow, notably the port beam cannon is destroyed by Nora in episode 3; and last, a VLS cell for anti-aircraft missiles, sea sparrow or SM-2, all those weapons along with the 6 destroids should give the carrier an incredible AAW capability.

The most interesting feature in the Asuka is the amphibious bay, it looks like the one on the LHD´s, it has 2 doors, one opening upwards and the other opening downwards, acting as a ramp, is in this bay where the AIFOS is loaded covered by the giant quarentine bubble.

That´s all for now, in my next post I will talk about the Carrier Battle Group itself and it´s modified Arleigh Burke destroyers.

[The6ftTallAZN]

http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat...a_ii/index.html

[Graham]

Very interesting first post op4 delta. Welcome to Macrossworld.

I look forward to reading your posts on the carrier battle group.

I'm pretty sure I have some line art of the Asuka, which I will scan and post if I can find it.

Graham

[sketchley]

The Macross compendium has contrary data on the number of beam cannons ("Overtechnology beam gun mounted in starboard".) 97.5% of the time, Egan Loo is accurate...

Don't forget to include the anti-gravity generators that are in the ship. Which implies that it is essentially the same as the Daedalus and Promethues ships from SDF:M - they are all surface (and underwater capable) ships designed to travel to orbit.

One of my theories is that the Daedalus, Prometheus, and possibly other ships equipped with gravity drives* were used in the pre-SWI period to transport materials and personnel to orbit, for the construction of the orbital shipyard, space fleet, space colonies/clusters, and the moon base; possibly even the Mars base.

* given the number of ships that floated in the air during the final battle of Macross 0, it looks like the majority of the ships in the UN (surface) fleet are equipped with gravity drives. Propably as a quick retrofit to get space ships before the space Destroyers and ARMD platforms were constructed... just something to keep in mind while fleshing out the Asuka's battle group - they're probably space worthy, and they probably carry Cheyenne Destroids, that are able to move to the parts of the hull that navel ships don't usually have guns mounted on...

Edited October 26, 2006 by sketchley

[Knight26]

I thought it was the AFOS that made it fly not gravity generators, but it has been a while since I watched M0

[sketchley]

AFOS activated, and possibly powered the anti-gravity generators inside of the ASUKA II. It was not shown that the other ships had them, but given that the ASUKA II was shown as having them, and only started to hover once they were activated, it's logical that the other ships had them - including the Anti-UN submarine.

It should also be noted that none of the ships started to fall once the peices of the Birdman left them.

[azrael]

Knight26 is right....AFOS made the ships float. I don't know where you got the idea that they have anti-grav generators. Same with the Daedalus and Prometheus. The latter 2 being sea-bound ships that were later modified for use with the SDF-1....

ASUKA II floated before the other ships probably due to the fact that it was carrying AFOS....The Anti-UN sub was also floating earlier probably due to AFOS' head.

[op4_delta]

I really appreciate all the your comments and the warm welcome I got, thanks a lot mates.

I made some scree captures to show some features of the Asuka.

In this pic both beam guns can be seen, one at each side of the bow. the guns are turreted and have a single cannon.

This other pic shows the port side OT gun being destroyed by instructor Ivanov, I though it was Nora.

I still wonder why the macross compendiumstates that there is only one OT gun mounted on the Asuka.

I will post more about the CVBG when I finish modifying my Arleigh Burke destroyers to the features shown in Macross Zero, like a third phalanx between the foremost chimmey and the bridge.

Please keep posting more comments.

[Knight26]

Man hovering that close to a phalanx mount, he must not have been there long or its ammo had to be dry because otherwise he would have been toast.

[sketchley]

Knight26 is right....AFOS made the ships float. I don't know where you got the idea that they have anti-grav generators. Same with the Daedalus and Prometheus. The latter 2 being sea-bound ships that were later modified for use with the SDF-1....

ASUKA II floated before the other ships probably due to the fact that it was carrying AFOS....The Anti-UN sub was also floating earlier probably due to AFOS' head.

Ok, than please explain what the machinery inside of the Asuka II is, which is activated just before the carrier floats - said machinery looks exactly like the anti-gravity generators on the SDF-1, as per the first two episodes of SDF:M. On the (Japanese) DVD for episode 5, it is viewable in chapter 2, at 4:57 to 5:00.

Both the Daedalus and Prometheus were seen in space, in orbit around Earth, in the second episode of SDF:M. Obviously they got their under their own power, and they obviously don't have large rocket engines. Thus they must have achieved orbit via anti-gravity.

I fully agree that the AFOS/birdman made them float, just that it did so via powering mechanisms inside of the human ships.

Edited October 26, 2006 by sketchley

[sketchley]

I still wonder why the macross compendiumstates that there is only one OT gun mounted on the Asuka.

I think that both you and the compendium may both be right. Looking closely at the image, the guns, though similar looking, have different sized barrels. Perhaps only one of them is the OT beam gun, the other being a more 'tried and true' conventional cannon of some kind.

The compendium lists the OT beam gun as being on the starboard side - starboard being the right side, and the gun on the right side being the one with the larger barrel...

[Knight26]

The gun barrels don't look any different in size to me. And as to seeing the D and P in orbit, I thought that was considered to be an animation error. Especially since it is stated in one of the early episodes that the crews of the D+P were killed after the space fold since the two ships were not initially spaceworthy.

[op4_delta]

The gun barrels don't look any different in size to me. And as to seeing the D and P in orbit, I thought that was considered to be an animation error. Especially since it is stated in one of the early episodes that the crews of the D+P were killed after the space fold since the two ships were not initially spaceworthy.

I agree with Knight26, the 2 barrels may seem different because of a shadow effect, the one on the port side has a shadow over it, besides I don´t see the point of having only one gun that can only fire to that direction. We should revise what the Macross Compendium has, specially the size of the Asuka, with only 250 meters in length it would be about the size of the british Invincible Class VTOL carrier, and lets face it, you cant squeeze 4 catapults and 4 elevator in the Invincible.

Another problem is the VLS cell, I deduced it has the same configuration than the Arleight Burke on it´s bow, wich is 4 Mk 41 cells, containing 8 missiles each, for a total of 32 AAW missiles, according to the macross compendium it is located amidships starboard, meaning that is is beside the island, in the OVA is nowhere to be seen, but this may be because of the angles the Asuka is shown.

[Knight26]

As for the VLS cells, I don't think they are going on CVN-77, but I know for sure the that CVNX-78 will feature an Evolved Sea Sparrow VLS on each side of the ship, same mounting points as the current Sea Sparrow launchers. BUt I've no idea where they are on the Asuka II, you'll have to do some serious video searching.

[Zinjo]

Ok, than please explain what the machinery inside of the Asuka II is, which is activated just before the carrier floats - said machinery looks exactly like the anti-gravity generators on the SDF-1, as per the first two episodes of SDF:M. On the (Japanese) DVD for episode 5, it is viewable in chapter 2, at 4:57 to 5:00.

Both the Daedalus and Prometheus were seen in space, in orbit around Earth, in the second episode of SDF:M. Obviously they got their under their own power, and they obviously don't have large rocket engines. Thus they must have achieved orbit via anti-gravity.

I fully agree that the AFOS/birdman made them float, just that it did so via powering mechanisms inside of the human ships.

Please provide pictures of both assertions as I don't recall either instances. Particularly the Dead and Prom in space in SDFM...

[anime52k8]

FOUND IT!

(the so called anti-gravity generators)

I still doubt that their anti-gravity generators though, it doesn't make sence that they would be, why would you need them, and even if they were it still doesn't you explain the two Arleight Burke (why on earth would you put something as complex and expencive as an anti-gravity drive on a destroyer) and the Anti-UN sub floating.

Edited October 27, 2006 by anime52k8

[op4_delta]

FOUND IT!

(the so called anti-gravity generators)

I still doubt that their anti-gravity generators though, it doesn't make sence that they would be, why would you need them, and even if they were it still doesn't you explain the two Arleight Burke (why on earth would you put something as complex and expencive as an anti-gravity drive on a destroyer) and the Anti-UN sub floating.

Indeed, those may be the ships engines, built with over technology

[azrael]

The Daedalus and Prometheus appear in episode 3. Apparently they are ARMD-01 and 02 in 1 scene and switch to the Daedalus and Prometheus in the next. Infact, there are 4 Daedalus and Prometheus's in the following scene. In the scene after that, they become Oberth destroyers and ARMD-01 and 02 again. Then the 2 ships appear back on Earth again like they've taken no damage... It's also an AnimeFriend episode.....That's an animation mistake so it doesn't count.

As for the gravity generators, they look like them, but until Egan or Kawamori care to say something, I don't know what they are. They could be the reactors.

[sketchley]

Anime52k8, reread my earlier post, as I put in a potential reason why the destroyers would be equipped with them.

Regarding the Prometheus and Daedalus in space:

There has been discussion that because anime company 'a' produced the animation of certain episodes, as opposed to anime company 'b', or 'c', that they have a higher number of 'animation errors.' Well, that could be true, HOWEVER, Macross Zero is considered to be free from animation errors, yet it also has navel ships that float, and contain OT generators that look very, very, very similar to the anti-gravity generators that the SDF-1 was equipped with. Makes you think, don't it - makes me think that the ship/position changes that Azrael pointed out could have been the *real* error, and ALL of the ships were meant to be in that scene :!:

As for the crew of the Daedalus and Prometheus being killed - the fold came as a surprise to them, right? That would mean that all, if not most of the doors were left open. We are talking about ships that are also semi-submersible, right? At the very least, they would be able to seal the hatches to prevent decompression, despite whatever your opinion is on their ability to 'fly.'

Re: the gun barrels

I reviewed the rest of episode 5 (have yet to do that for the preceeding four episodes) and the one or two 'good' images that show both gun emplacments are not clear - thus not conclusive. The size of the gun barrel on the left side does appear to be smaller - but that could just be shading, my eyes, etc.. What I suspect is that the frame-model designer merely cut and pasted the same gun design on both sides of the ship.

I still maintain the assertation that the gun on the left side of the ship is a non-OT beam cannon. Perhaps some kind of a rail cannon?

Edited October 27, 2006 by sketchley

[eugimon]

azrael makes a good point... the fact that the ships involved switch from scene to scene lends credibility to his claim that it was an animation mistake.

I always saw the scene in macross zero of the alien technology being so powerful that it could make things float... such as the rocks. You're not going to suggest the rocks had little gravity drives as well?

[sketchley]

They had Mayan glyphs painted on them, and it was the spiritia power of Sara that powered them.

A new thought on the Asuka II (and other) anti-gravity debate: why do the ships remain floating after the parts of the birdman have left? By the logic of the arguements against the ship(s) having anti-gravity generators, the ships should have immediately begun falling after the birdman left.

[eugimon]

They had Mayan glyphs painted on them, and it was the spiritia power of Sara that powered them.

A new thought on the Asuka II (and other) anti-gravity debate: why do the ships remain floating after the parts of the birdman have left? By the logic of the arguements against the ship(s) having anti-gravity generators, the ships should have immediately begun falling after the birdman left.

ah, but rocks and such are floating around even after sara stops singing.. residual effect? And... if you remember, the the gravity generators on the SDF-1 pulled out of the ship since the humans couldn't intergrate them properly into their technology... so your arguements make little sense in that regard... why would the premier flagship of the un spacy have poor anti-grav, but a carrier and some destroyers have them up and running?

[sketchley]

The rocks are an entirely seperate issue, as, namely, the birdman is nowhere near them when they are floating. Let's move the spiritia empowered rocks discussion to another thread.

The gravity generators on the SDF-1 pulled out for any number of reasons - most likely improper mounting and/or the very frame of the SDF-1 was damaged (and never fixed) when it crash landed. In other words, the ol' "we didn't know that it was broke in the first place" process of reverse engineering.

And, don't you mean that the humans couldn't integrate the generators properly into an OT ship? The SDF-1 was never a human ship. Maybe it was renovated to become one. Maybe.

Lastly, the fleet in Macross Zero was obviously operational. The first launching that we saw of the SDF-1 was the very first launching of that ship. It didn't have any 'sea' trials, and they had no idea how many bugs were in the ship (as is the case of any new ship being launched.)

[David Hingtgen]

Is the pic anime52k8 posted of the Asuka specifically, or just a ship in the fleet? Because those are huge IMHO---far too large for any engine in a Burke class (even with OT) and I think too large even for a OT-enhanced Nimitz-sized reactor. (Assuing OT doesn't make stuff like twice as big) And I do think they bear resemblance to the Macross' anti-grav units, so I kinda like the anti-grav generator theroy.

That, or the animators just have no clue what a naval nuclear reactor nor turbine looks like, and just made "Macross-ish" engines.

[op4_delta]

From my point of view, we should not take all we read in Macross Compendium as 100% true, specially with the Asuka wich entry has a big error in it, the ship´s lenght.

It´s entry is also damaged in the Macross Zero official homepage, I wrote the webmaster several weeks ago and no reply yet, so we have to trust our common sense and knowledge of real life and Macross universe weapons and vessels.

[Zinjo]

Why equip ships with AG generators and fly them into space with no apparent menuevering thrust system present, at all?

The idea of sending equipment and such into space could have just as easily been accomplished via some sort of space station anchored tether system utilizing any AG generators as the means by which a lift bed was elevated into space. Much cheaper and more efficient that building individual ships with separate AG generators.

If this were so then the Asuka and the Prometheus would have had different meathods of elevating fighters to the catapults as well as launching them, as opposed to the traditional way in which we see the fighter are moved around the carrier. The way they do, we would tend to see fighters float away into space when the elevators reached the flight deck, something a "covered" elevator or even a cowling similar to the CV Series of space carriers shown in Macross 7.

Now the idea of a submersible carrier has always seemed a bit like explaining away dramatic license, however the Deadalus being a submersible vehicle is entirely possible in that the russian navy was developing submersible troop carriers during the cold war, which looked quite similar to the Deadalus.

Which brings me back to the fact that the lifting of both the Asuka and the AUN stealth sub was the work of the AFOS to give us a parallel to Sara's ability to levitate rocks. There is no overt or covert evidence in the story to suggest that either vessel were equipped with AG generators. IMO the generators shown were a form of OT reactors used to power the super carrier and most likely one of them was used exclusively to power the beam canon weapon.

Edited October 27, 2006 by Zinjo

[azrael]

Well, that could be true, HOWEVER, Macross Zero is considered to be free from animation errors, yet it also has navel ships that float, and contain OT generators that look very, very, very similar to the anti-gravity generators that the SDF-1 was equipped with. Makes you think, don't it -...

M0 free of animation errors????

I should point out Shin's VF-0A disappearing and reappearing FAST packs in episode 5. He jettisons all weapons leaving only the fighter, however, in the next scene, his dorsal fuel tanks and leg-mounted FAST packs appear in the scene and then disappear in the following scene.

The more I look at those things, the more they look like the engine reactors.

Episode 7, SDF Macross, Right when Macross attempts to lift off from Mars base

Episode 4, M+, As Macross lifts off from the lake.

Overtechnology in the reactors is possible since Overtechnology was used to give the F-14 additional life in the UN Navy.

Now, if you want me to really confuse you, Perfect Memory list those same objects as the gravity generators. Now, if those are the AG generators...why are they back in episode 7?

[Zinjo]

Now, if you want me to really confuse you, Perfect Memory list those same objects as the gravity generators. Now, if those are the AG generators...why are they back in episode 7?

Pffft, it's obvious they found them around Pluto after they folded...

From my point of view, we should not take all we read in Macross Compendium as 100% true, specially with the Asuka wich entry has a big error in it, the ship´s lenght.

It´s entry is also damaged in the Macross Zero official homepage, I wrote the webmaster several weeks ago and no reply yet, so we have to trust our common sense and knowledge of real life and Macross universe weapons and vessels.

Hmm, careful grasshoppa, some folks around here consider that site their "bible".....

However, nothing is perfect, so it's possible there are errors here and there.

Edited October 27, 2006 by Zinjo

[David Hingtgen]

Where is there a reference to OT in the F-14's? If they had OT, it sure wasn't in the cockpit...

[op4_delta]

Macross Compendium is a great site and I have nothing against it, but we should not follow it blindly or try to accomodate our ideas to fit in their descriptions. To me it seems more logical that those purple ringed things are OT reactors and the Asuka has 2 beam cannons, just as it has 2 phalanxes on the bow in "mirror" locations.

As for the slow descent of the asuka and the remaining Arleight Burke, it could be explained this way: The birdman-sara did not want to kill any more people, specially the entire mayan island population and her sister on board the carrier.

[Graham]

HOWEVER, Macross Zero is considered to be free from animation errors,

Macross Zero is most definitely NOT free of animation errors. Witness the leg FAST packs that Shin ejects from his VF-0A along with all his other weapons in episode # 5. A few seconds later, the FAST packs magically reapear back on the legs of his VF-0A.

Graham

Whoops........Azrael beat me to it!

[Graham]

While the Compendium is officially sanctioned by Big West and Egan AFAIK, bases all his information on tranlated Japanese source material, I'd have to second that it is not always 100% accurate (more like 99%!). It's the closest thing we have to accurate but the odd mistake has been known to creep in.

Often the problem lies in omission rather than outright mistakes. In that just because something is not mentioned in the specs, doesn't mean it might not be there.

Graham

[Nied]

Where is there a reference to OT in the F-14's? If they had OT, it sure wasn't in the cockpit...

In the Compendium. Part of what makes the F-14A+ Kai special is "upgrades implementing Overtechnology in avionics and other areas." My guess is it has OT derived ECM systems (explaining why it's ECM antenna aren't like any other F-14's) and some of the more fatigued areas in the airframe replaced with OT materials.

[op4_delta]

Ok, here is a bit more info on the main subject of this topic, the vessels and aircraft conforming the Asuka´s CVBG.

On to the Arleigh Burke missile destroyers: The entire group of escorts the Asuka had were modified Flight I and Flight II Burkes, there is not a single Flight IIA to be seen in the group, depriving the battle group of the extended anti submarine capabilities of the newer version of the destroyer, maybe this would explain why the UN forces never found the AUN´s sub-carrier.

28 Flight I and II Burkes were built and at least 5 are seen escorting the Asuka, but I assume there were at least 8 in the group, forming a protective ring around it with 3 on each side, one forward and another in the back.

But why an escort of just destroyers, not frigates or cruisers? the answer I found to this is stealth, it is suppossed to be an stealth fleet, and the Burkes are way more stealthy than the O H Perry frigates and the Ticonderoga cruisers, there is no point in having an stealth carrier with a non stealth escort.

The modifications made to the Burkes: the bow sonar is considerably larger, it has 2 small stabilization fins on each side of it, the normal propellers have been replaced by pod propellers and the foremost chimmey has been reduced a bit to accomodate a block 1 phalanx, wich has a shorter barrel.

This image is a work in progress, so excuse the low res texture and the holes in the sonar.

DDG 77

USS O´Kane, escorting the Asuka, of the 4 vessels shown in the picture, one is the ill fated Algeciras, probably sold or transfered to the Marine Nationale, or just renamed in french after being part of a global navy.

Is the mentioned Algeciras destroyed? it got knocked out for sure, the bridge was destroyed leaving it headless, but the place the missile impacted could not cause it´s sinking....

Edited October 29, 2006 by op4_delta

[sketchley]

Why equip ships with AG generators and fly them into space with no apparent menuevering thrust system present, at all?

Use the anti-gravity generators as a gravity drive. It's not the most manueverable drive system, but it gets the job of transporting stuff (a squadron of fighters, cargo, etc.) to orbit.