Analyzing 'Military Divisions'

[grebo guru]

Greetings all,

I'm no newbie to Macross (been following it since it started), but there are some rather specific technical issues I've been wondering about. See, I plan on running a Macross game sometime soon and so there are several Macross details I'm looking to learn more about.

(For those who are curious, I'll be using R. Talsorian Games' "Mekton Z" system rather than Palladium, which I find unsuitable. I wrote up specs for the Macross Plus VFs which were printed in an issue of V.Max magazine back in the '90s. They represent the kind of stats I plan on using.)

Anyway, here's one of my questions. If the subject(s) I bring up were discussed/answered in previous threads, I'd appreciate it if someone would point me to them. And if any of these matters have not been covered, I'd be thrilled by a discussion. Thanks!

Military Divisions

In Gundam, the Earth Federation's military forces have only two divisions -- EFSF (Earth Federation Space Force) and EFM (Earth Federation Military -- I think). Basically, the terrestrial military and the space military. No Air Force, no Navy, no Marines, no Army; all that falls under the terrestrial EFM. In Macross, there's UN Spacy which is obviously the space forces, and there's... uh... what? Is there a UN Air Force, UN Army, UN Marines, and UN Navy? If so, do these branches exist only on Earth, or on every planet? I know that in Macross II UN Spacy was the entire military and even, effectively, the government. But in "prime" Macross, I'm unclear on the divisions. It seemed to me at least aboard the SDF-1 Macross, there were two divisions: UN Spacy (primarily VF forces) and the Defense Force (primarily Destroids). Is that how it works?

Thanks in advance for your input, everyone!

Grebo

[Zinjo]

Kawamori has created line art of Valkyries and Destroids with UN Navy, UN Air Force and UN Army labels on them, so it would appear that such forces did exist on Earth prior SW1, but after the war nothing is really mentioned about it, AFAIK. Most of the series' after SDF Macross centered around UN Spacy.

[azrael]

Please try to avoid starting topics with nearly identical headers in a relative short amount of time. It does looks like your spamming the board. Also, please remember to use the newbie thread (even if your not a newbie) to find answers to common/short questions.

Is there a UN Air Force, UN Army, UN Marines, and UN Navy? If so, do these branches exist only on Earth, or on every planet? I know that in Macross II UN Spacy was the entire military and even, effectively, the government. But in "prime" Macross, I'm unclear on the divisions. It seemed to me at least aboard the SDF-1 Macross, there were two divisions: UN Spacy (primarily VF forces) and the Defense Force (primarily Destroids). Is that how it works?

From the Compendium:

http://macross.anime.net//story/glossary/index.html

UNAF

United Nations Air Force

UNN

United Nations Navy

UNS

United Nations Spacy

UNSAF

United Nations Space Air Force

UNSM

United Nations Space Marines

These are the only groups that have been listed in the continuity. Whether of not there are more, has not been mentioned to us at this time.

[Penguin]

I'd always presumed that the UNN and UNAF saw their peak during the UN War. After that, focus changed to defence from threats in outer space. Later, with smaller, more widely distributed population centres throughout the colony worlds, the need for a Navy or Air Force diminished even further. For example, would there be any need for a permanent Navy on Eden? Coast Guard maybe, but I can't think of a good reason for a true Navy. Thus, we're left with Spacy to provide rapid-response-style military strength throughout the colonized worlds and Space Marines to supply the grunts for the Spacy. As for the Space Air Force, maybe major/strategic colony worlds would merit a standing defence from invasion, bandits/pirates, etc., and thus have Space Air Force units permanently stationed there.

[briscojr84]

I'd always presumed that the UNN and UNAF saw their peak during the UN War. After that, focus changed to defence from threats in outer space. Later, with smaller, more widely distributed population centres throughout the colony worlds, the need for a Navy or Air Force diminished even further. For example, would there be any need for a permanent Navy on Eden? Coast Guard maybe, but I can't think of a good reason for a true Navy. Thus, we're left with Spacy to provide rapid-response-style military strength throughout the colonized worlds and Space Marines to supply the grunts for the Spacy. As for the Space Air Force, maybe major/strategic colony worlds would merit a standing defence from invasion, bandits/pirates, etc., and thus have Space Air Force units permanently stationed there.

Wasn't New Edwards a UNAF base rather than a UNS base, it's been awhile since I've watched Plus. I'm not sure though.

[sketchley]

Yes... Macross is confusing when it comes to this.

There are implications that a navy exists - the terrorists/bad guys/revolutionaries in VF-X2 use submarines. As most of their equipment is UN equipment, it's extremely likely that those unmanned submarines are from the UN Navy.

As an aside, the submarines are quite big. They contain missile launchers - the missiles being the size of VFs! It makes little sense for the bad guys to design, build, and field submarines, when they have the technology and ability to manufacture space ships (Untamed Destroyer, and Vandal Gunship,) which are infinitely more powerful...

Looking at this in an overal, Macross historical way - immediately post SWI, the focus was on the UN Spacy. However, there would still be a need for ground, or terrestrial forces. At the very least, you could view it as different training regimes to provide specialized warriors for the environment (Army = ground, Air = atmospheric, Navy = water (on, and mostly under,) Spacy = space, Marines = de Marines, etc..)

After colonization has started, numerous wars break out between, not space based foes, but between colonies and on colonies! There are definite needs for Army, Air Force, Marine, and Navy branches of the army. If you doubt this assertation, I suggest having another look at Isamu Dyson's military record - virtually all of his combat experience was - against other humans, on colony worlds!

Looking at the Macross Compendium, a new question has popped into my mind: there are the UN Air Force, UN Spacy, and UN Space Air Force. What's the difference between the UN Spacy and the UN Space Air Force? Weren't pilot's like Isamu, Ichijo, and the rest, members of the UN Spacy?? Is the UN Spacy the proper name for the ships, and their respective crews, in the fleet, with the UN Space Air Force being the proper title of the VF pilots???

Edited October 25, 2006 by sketchley

[Penguin]

Looking at the Macross Compendium, a new question has popped into my mind: there are the UN Air Force, UN Spacy, and UN Space Air Force. What's the difference between the UN Spacy and the UN Space Air Force? Weren't pilot's like Isamu, Ichijo, and the rest, members of the UN Spacy?? Is the UN Spacy the proper name for the ships, and their respective crews, in the fleet, with the UN Space Air Force being the proper title of the VF pilots???

I always figured a Space Air Force would be responsible for operations in near orbit of a planet or some other fixed location. To use the Air Force/Navy analogy, an Air Force operates out of fixed bases. For a Space Air Force, these might be ground bases with transatmospheric craft, or space stations. The Spacy is the mobile branch, providing the UN Government with interstellar force projection.

VF Pilots could be part of either the Spacy or the Space Air Force (or the Air Force, or the Marines, for that matter), since all of these branches field combat aircraft. When operating from a starship like the Macross, pilots would likely be Spacy or Marines, just as pilots operating from aircraft carriers are naval or marine pilots, not air force. Although, I've heard it mentioned (I think in the Macross Compendium) that the Marines in Macross are more akin to the Royal Marines in the UK than the USMC, and I don't recall whether the Royal Marines use combat aircraft like the USMC does.

[Awacs]

Although, I've heard it mentioned (I think in the Macross Compendium) that the Marines in Macross are more akin to the Royal Marines in the UK than the USMC, and I don't recall whether the Royal Marines use combat aircraft like the USMC does.

Royal Marines don't tend to have organic fixed wing aircraft, that is the domain of the Navy or Air Force (at the moment a joint service structure called Join Force Harrier provides the fixed wing airgroups for our carriers). I believe that the Royal Marines do maintain some helicopters for airmobility and the like.

However, I could be wrong - my information is a few years old now and things can change quite fast. Don't know if anyone else can shed any more up-to-date light on the subject?

Karl

[sketchley]

I tend to look at the Japanese Self-Defense Force for answers to Macross military related questions. As there isn't a Marines branch of the SDF... questions, questions.

What is certain, is that the VA-3M (Marine) exists. It is definitely mission-suited for the Spacy Marines of Macross - if their mission is similar to that of the UK, and US Marines (primarily water to land operations.)

[Roy Focker]

Could the UNSAF just be a sub-division of the UNS?

[sketchley]

Possibly. I was looking at the color schemes of the VFs provided in the back of one of the Macross Plus books, and only a handful of VFs had 'UNS Air Force' stencilled on their sides. The majority were UNS. There was only one or two, with UNS Marines.

[Nied]

Could the UNSAF just be a sub-division of the UNS?

That was always my suspicion, as Sketchley said the M+ color schemes have several UNSAF squads in them, but there are also several schemes that use USAF style designations (Tactical Fighter Wing or Tactical Fighter Squadron) but have UN Spacy painted on the side. My guess is that all of the mentioned branches are under the UN Spacy umbrella. That would help explain why Shin's decidedly terrestrial naval fighter had UN Spacy on the side and why some UNSAF fighters say UN Spacy on them.

Edited October 26, 2006 by Nied

[Zinjo]

I always figured a Space Air Force would be responsible for operations in near orbit of a planet or some other fixed location. To use the Air Force/Navy analogy, an Air Force operates out of fixed bases. For a Space Air Force, these might be ground bases with transatmospheric craft, or space stations. The Spacy is the mobile branch, providing the UN Government with interstellar force projection.

VF Pilots could be part of either the Spacy or the Space Air Force (or the Air Force, or the Marines, for that matter), since all of these branches field combat aircraft. When operating from a starship like the Macross, pilots would likely be Spacy or Marines, just as pilots operating from aircraft carriers are naval or marine pilots, not air force. Although, I've heard it mentioned (I think in the Macross Compendium) that the Marines in Macross are more akin to the Royal Marines in the UK than the USMC, and I don't recall whether the Royal Marines use combat aircraft like the USMC does.

I tend to agree.

It would make the most sense. Spacy performs a stellar naval role while the UNSAF performs a more localized based role in colonial systems or even outposts. The Space Marines would fill roles within Spacy as well as terrestrial duties.

I'd suspect the role of planetary based divisions would be more of a civil defense role to defend citizens planetside as well as quell any revolutionary tendancies.

I don't recall exactly, but I believe the "New Edwards" base is a Spacy base, eventhough the origin of the name is US Air Force.

[MilSpex]

That was always my suspicion, as Sketchley said the M+ color schemes have several UNSAF squads in them, but there are also several schemes that use USAF style designations (Tactical Fighter Wing or Tactical Fighter Squadron) but have UN Spacy painted on the side. My guess is that all of the mentioned branches are under the UN Spacy umbrella. That would help explain why Shin's decidedly terrestrial naval fighter had UN Spacy on the side and why some UNSAF fighters say UN Spacy on them.

I agree with this post. UN Spacy (UN Space Navy) is probably an umbrella term for all the services.

Edited October 30, 2006 by MilSpex

[Penguin]

I suppose it could be viewed either way... UN Spacy as the "top level" organization, or itself another branch of an overall "UN Defence Force". I've always preferred the latter, but in truth we've only ever heard of other branches in print, model label sheets, and so on. I don't recall any animation source that ever presented a UN Army, Navy, or Air Force label on any mecha, ship, etc. (Feel free to correct me, anyone.) As Zinjo noted, it would make sense if the New Edwards base in Macross Plus was administrated by the UN Air Force or Space Air Force, but all the markings I see in Macross Plus only read "Spacy".

So, I think we could interpret it as one of the following:

1. The UN Spacy is the overall organization, with all other branches falling underneath it (if they even exist post-SWI).

2. The UN Spacy is a branch like the rest, but they just never bother to animate any of the other branches, and as a result we get F-14s with bizarre "UN Spacy" labels.

Edited October 31, 2006 by Penguin