Analyzing the 'Minmei Attack'

[grebo guru]

Greetings all,

I'm no newbie to Macross (been following it since it started), but there are some rather specific technical issues I've been wondering about. See, I plan on running a Macross game sometime soon and so there are several Macross details I'm looking to learn more about.

(For those who are curious, I'll be using R. Talsorian Games' "Mekton Z" system rather than Palladium, which I find unsuitable. I wrote up specs for the Macross Plus VFs which were printed in an issue of V.Max magazine back in the '90s. They represent the kind of stats I plan on using.)

Anyway, here's one of my questions. If the subject(s) I bring up were discussed/answered in previous threads, I'd appreciate it if someone would point me to them. And if any of these matters have not been covered, I'd be thrilled by a discussion. Thanks!

Minmei Attack

This has been bothering me for a while. In Macross TV, DYRL, and Macross II it seems that the Minmei Attack can be performed simply by broadcasting. But I wonder. In Macross 7, Basara fires speaker pods onto enemy mecha, which makes more sense. But still, it's there in the TV show, DYRL, etc... How the heck does the Minmei Attack work? I mean, sound doesn't travel in space. Therefore, I assume you'd have to broadcast the song over all radio channels at such a high power level that it overwhelms any other conventional communications. However, if this is the case, several problems arise.

First of all, what's to stop the enemy from just turning off their radios? (I suppose it's possible that the moment the enemy hears the song, they're sorta "hypnotized" by it -- so stunned and abosrbed that they can't bring themselves to turn it off, or don't even think of that.) Second, if you're broadcasting over all frequencies, wouldn't you overwhelm your own side's communications as well? Earth pilots wouldn't be stopped by the music, but you'd lose battlefield commo, which is very important. (I suppose it would be easy, though, to just NOT broadcast over your own particular battlefield commo frequencies.)

Another idea, I guess, would be gathering intel to determine exactly what frequency the enemy uses for battlefield commo and only broadcast the Minmay Attack on those frequencies... but even dumb newcomer Zentraedi would, I should expect, think to change to different frequencies, or eventually wise up and think to jam the enemy's broadcasts, or at least opt to go into battle with their radios off if necessary. Hmmm.

I'm kinda stumped. Anyone have any insights? Has there been any canon discussion of this subject? Thanks in advance for your input, everyone!

Grebo

[azrael]

Please try to avoid starting topics with nearly identical headers in a relative short amount of time. It does looks like your spamming the board. Also, please remember to use the newbie thread (even if your not a newbie) to find answers to common/short questions.

They probably broadcasted on all Zentradi-used frequencies and only a few frequencies on their side. It's been a while since I've seen that episode and DYRL?, so I don't recall the details.

[thegunny]

The Minmay attack in Macross II had a visual aspect to it as well. They put up huge holo images of Minmay as well as the singing. So I suppose you could turn off the radio but to avoid the images you'd have fly with your eyes closed. Not smart in combat.

[GrimlockCW]

Sound doesn't travel through space, but you see it happen often enough in any Sci-Fi.

its basic Sci-Fi Magic, otherwise people would lose interest in things real fast, just like the many times characters are talking in space through the whole shibang of Macross and on, or the explosions, and other noises constantly heard.

Mac7 just put a slight twist and possibility to some of it with the speaker pods but kinda pulled the idea later on in a sense.

as for the radio comm, thats a better explanation than most, but generaly it moreso "appears" they just played it on massive speakers to everyone in the area, and over the com channels of all frequencies.

i think the only thing that ever did silent space, was some episodes of the Original Star trek.. or so i've heard, as someone had a discussion of this sort on another forum, and it was complained about the later ST's not keeping the noise free space combat like in the original or something.

Edited October 23, 2006 by GrimlockCW

[Keith]

The "Minmay Attack" in all incarnations is little more than a short term limited use option. The means its delivered is definately intended to be an all channel broadcast (meaning if the Zentradi want to communicate with each other, they have to have their com line's on). You'll recall that

Exedor explained the Zentraid chain of command in a battle, with larger battle groups being directed by command ships, which were in turn battle groups commanded by bigger command ships, etc. The point of the attack was to disrupt those communication lines so that strike groups could get in and take out the heads of those groups, leaving the bulkier forces without orders or direction.

This however only left a small window of "shock value" open, and once the Zentradi regained their footing, the song/kiss would no longer have an effect, and resume their attack. The only reason the Macross wasn't overwhelmed, was because they managed to cause a major coup in the Britai Adoclas fleet, by winning over the bulk of their forces with "human culture contimination," i.e. not the shock value of the songs & kiss, but awakening feelings within them, and sharing the human lifestyle. Without that, the "Minmay Attack" would have been useless.

And as you mention in Macross 7, speaker pod's are introduced to prevent signal jamming, but in that, it wasn't an attempt at any type of culture shock/Minmay Attack at all, but a more direct attempt at encouraging an emotional response from the target. This of course later evolved into the song energy system with Sound Boosters, which didn't broadcast sound at all, but directly broadcast the passionate emotion from the singer to the target.

Also, Macross II's Minmay Attack was little more than a reproduction of the events in DYRL, which pioneered hte hologram in space broadcast. It was rendered useless for even shock value, as the Marduk's Zentradi were under mind control, and pre-programmed to only respond to song cues from the Marduk Emulator's. The trick there being to coerce the emulator's, thus renderin the Zentradi under their control null.

Edited October 23, 2006 by Keith

[Ginrai]

Is that really a giant hologram of Minmay behind Hikaru's Strike Valkyrie when he kills Bodolzaa or is that just artistic representation?

[GrimlockCW]

its Bodolza's viewing screen within the ship, isn't it?

[grebo guru]

Hmmm. Interesting stuff...

The "Minmay Attack" in all incarnations is little more than a short term limited use option.

Is this really certain? I rather got the impression that the disorienting effect of the music on enemy troops wasn't something that wore off. At least not quickly.

The means its delivered is definately intended to be an all channel broadcast (meaning if the Zentradi want to communicate with each other, they have to have their com line's on).

Makes sense to me. I wonder if there's any canon discussion of this, though.

You'll recall that Exedor explained the Zentraid chain of command in a battle, with larger battle groups being directed by command ships, which were in turn battle groups commanded by bigger command ships, etc. The point of the attack was to disrupt those communication lines so that strike groups could get in and take out the heads of those groups, leaving the bulkier forces without orders or direction.

I don't remember this part, but it's clearly true. The attack on Bodolza's fortress in the movie is a prime example.

This however only left a small window of "shock value" open, and once the Zentradi regained their footing, the song/kiss would no longer have an effect, and resume their attack.

Hmmm. Are we sure about this? Or are you making an educated guess?

The only reason the Macross wasn't overwhelmed, was because they managed to cause a major coup in the Britai Adoclas fleet, by winning over the bulk of their forces with "human culture contimination," i.e. not the shock value of the songs & kiss, but awakening feelings within them, and sharing the human lifestyle. Without that, the "Minmay Attack" would have been useless.

I don't think it would have been useless... But certainly the "culture contamination" was key, no doubt about that.

And as you mention in Macross 7, speaker pod's are introduced to prevent signal jamming, but in that, it wasn't an attempt at any type of culture shock/Minmay Attack at all, but a more direct attempt at encouraging an emotional response from the target.

How exactly is a "direct attempt at encouraging an emotional response from the target" different from the Minmay Attack? And really, getting the aliens to experience an emotional response -- one which, as beings without music nor certain emotional regularities in their culture (or lack thereof) -- IS a kind of culture shock, isn't it?

Wait. I just realized we're talking about the Varauta here. Hmmm. Hey, what do we actually know about the Varauta? I mean, they're "alienized" human colonists, right? Or are they? I must admit that although I watched all of Macross 7, I was left so cold by it that I didn't really invest myself too much in figuring out what the hell was really going on... heh.

Also, Macross II's Minmay Attack was little more than a reproduction of the events in DYRL, which pioneered hte hologram in space broadcast. It was rendered useless for even shock value, as the Marduk's Zentradi were under mind control, and pre-programmed to only respond to song cues from the Marduk Emulator's.

Yes, I'm well aware of this. However, part of the point in Macross II -- this is one of the good points in the story, IMO -- was that before the Marduk invasion, UN Spacy had it easy. Every few years a random Zentraedi fleet would show up, and they'd always fall victim to the Minmay Attack (well, Minmay Defense, technically) and/or culture shock, and UN Spacy would beat 'em with ease. Over the years, the UNS became complacent, overconfident, lazy and soft. Hence, when the Marduk showed up and were resistant to the Minmay Defense, UN Spacy found themselves unprepared for a "stand-up fight".

I think this is a really good idea for a storyline. Unfortunately, Macross II executed it pretty poorly. When I first heard that MII was going to be more of story of Culture Clash than Culture Shock, I was intrigued. And the idea of Battle Singers, who motivated enemy attackers and countered the Minmay effect -- that sounded so cool! I had this image of really intense, almost savage-looking alien musicians, beating on massive electronic drums... "The natives are restless" in a high-tech space war. But no. Instead, the alien Battle Singers turned out to be these willowy, anemic waifs who wail and moan lamely (it was supposed to be eerie, I think, but it wasn't). SUCH a disappointment.

Still, the basic idea is a good one, I think. Like much of Macross II, the basic idea just wasn't executed well.

The trick there being to coerce the emulator's, thus renderin the Zentradi under their control null.

Well, y'know, good-lookin' alien broads always love Earthmen. I almost plotzed when Syvil the Protodevlin chick fell for Basara! I mean jeez, she's a freakin' abomination...!

Anyway, thoughts?

[Fortress_Maximus]

As Keith mentioned please take sometime to examine the commonly asked n00b FAQS threads. Thanks.

[Zinjo]

How exactly is a "direct attempt at encouraging an emotional response from the target" different from the Minmay Attack? And really, getting the aliens to experience an emotional response -- one which, as beings without music nor certain emotional regularities in their culture (or lack thereof) -- IS a kind of culture shock, isn't it?

Well Basara is essentially Kawamori's superman IMO. He is able to project his emotion to his target via his music and apparently elicit an emotional response, which isn't hostile, agression, sadness or fear but benign peace and/or love.

Wait. I just realized we're talking about the Varauta here. Hmmm. Hey, what do we actually know about the Varauta? I mean, they're "alienized" human colonists, right? Or are they? I must admit that although I watched all of Macross 7, I was left so cold by it that I didn't really invest myself too much in figuring out what the hell was really going on... heh.

Their troops are made up of the crew and colonists of the Megaroad 13 mission under mind control, similar to how the Supervision Army started out.

The PD themselves are bioengineered weapons, possessed by spiritia entities from another dimension. Thus apparently they and their mind control techniques were vulnerable to the anima spiritia affects that Basara and Mylene were capable of generating.

Yes, I'm well aware of this. However, part of the point in Macross II -- this is one of the good points in the story, IMO -- was that before the Marduk invasion, UN Spacy had it easy. Every few years a random Zentraedi fleet would show up, and they'd always fall victim to the Minmay Attack (well, Minmay Defense, technically) and/or culture shock, and UN Spacy would beat 'em with ease. Over the years, the UNS became complacent, overconfident, lazy and soft. Hence, when the Marduk showed up and were resistant to the Minmay Defense, UN Spacy found themselves unprepared for a "stand-up fight".

Well the whole thing about the failure of the Minmay Defense was as you say, the complacency of Spacy and that the singer shown in the hologram was in fact a current Pop idol of the day, not Minmay. They used "culture" shock to gain the upper hand in every Zentreadi encounter. Because the singer didn't have the same emotional commitment to the song(s) as Minmay did, one could argue that the anima spiritia potency was absent from the music and easily defeatable by the Marduk's emulators.

I think this is a really good idea for a storyline. Unfortunately, Macross II executed it pretty poorly. When I first heard that MII was going to be more of story of Culture Clash than Culture Shock, I was intrigued. And the idea of Battle Singers, who motivated enemy attackers and countered the Minmay effect -- that sounded so cool! I had this image of really intense, almost savage-looking alien musicians, beating on massive electronic drums... "The natives are restless" in a high-tech space war. But no. Instead, the alien Battle Singers turned out to be these willowy, anemic waifs who wail and moan lamely (it was supposed to be eerie, I think, but it wasn't). SUCH a disappointment.

I tend to believe the story was meant to be longer, but disappointing ratings cut it short. There is no public evidence of this, but it is the only explanation why experienced writers and producers would leave so many loose ends and dropped story threads in the 6 - 1/2 hour episodes. I would love to know what the whole vision for the series would have been and how long it was planned to run.

Still, the basic idea is a good one, I think. Like much of Macross II, the basic idea just wasn't executed well.

Well, y'know, good-lookin' alien broads always love Earthmen. I almost plotzed when Syvil the Protodevlin chick fell for Basara! I mean jeez, she's a freakin' abomination...!

Dude, Sivil may have looked odd, but she was the best of all the PD! IMO, all the PD should have looked like her and had special abilities. The whole space monster thing didn't impress me at all, in M7.

[Keith]

Is this really certain? I rather got the impression that the disorienting effect of the music on enemy troops wasn't something that wore off. At least not quickly.

It's something very certain. Watch how the Zentradi go back to normal when either shutting off their com lines, or just trudging through the culture shocl. Hell, if the effects were long term, then Britai's fleet would have been useless. The Zentradi weren't retards afterall, they were just inexperienced in such things.

I don't remember this part, but it's clearly true. The attack on Bodolza's fortress in the movie is a prime example.

It's in either episode 25 or 26, there are even charts shown.

Hmmm. Are we sure about this? Or are you making an educated guess?

I believe its specified in the dialogue. Don't remember exact quotes though.

I don't think it would have been useless... But certainly the "culture contamination" was key, no doubt about that.

Well, useless in that without the Britai Adoclas fleet, all the Minmays in the world wouldn't have gotten the Macross anywhere near Bodolza's ship.

How exactly is a "direct attempt at encouraging an emotional response from the target" different from the Minmay Attack? And really, getting the aliens to experience an emotional response -- one which, as beings without music nor certain emotional regularities in their culture (or lack thereof) -- IS a kind of culture shock, isn't it?

The "Minmay Attack" was specifically designed for culture shock so that the enemy would become vulnerable to attack. Basara had no such plans, as he sang not to distract, not to create a window of attack for others, he sang to directly motivate others to "willingly" stop their fighting & and enjoy a common feeling. It had the added benefit of "exciting" the Varuta forces enough to snap out of their mind control. This all goes back to the end of the first TV series though. After Kaifun threw Minmay's culture shock back in her face, she realized the reason she should be singing isn't to for fame, or to stun the Zentradi. She realized that she needed to envoke a geniuine emotion in people, otherwise what she was doing would be hollow & meaningless. This same issue was covered with Myung & Sharon. Basara carried the torch by aggressively trying to envoke emotions in people, not just by hanging out & waiting for it to happen, but getting right in their faces.

His conviction turned out to be so strong that it not only snapped those Varuta soldiers out of their sleep, but also generated a lifeforce energy too raw & powerful for the Protodevelin to obsorb. Basara is the ultimate evolution of Minmay.

Wait. I just realized we're talking about the Varauta here. Hmmm. Hey, what do we actually know about the Varauta? I mean, they're "alienized" human colonists, right? Or are they? I must admit that although I watched all of Macross 7, I was left so cold by it that I didn't really invest myself too much in figuring out what the hell was really going on... heh.

The Varuta give us insight into just who the Supervision Army were, why the Protoculture fell, and why the Zentradi roam around taking out anyone they concieve to be a threat. Basically, the fall of the Protoculture resulted from the Protodevelin using their own technology against them. The Protoculture themselves were captured by the Protodevelin, put under mind control, and used as a shield against the Zentradi. With their orders not to attack Protoculture citizens, the Zentradi were rendered as nothing more than moving targets. With little choice left, the Protoculture had to remove the ban on the Zentradi attacking them, so that the Protoculture themselves could go after the Protodevelin with whatever their incarnation of Anima Spiritia was. This had the flipside of the Protoculture themselves becoming targets once the Protodevelin were sealed away. They tried to demilitarize the Zentradi into their own society, the Zentradi feared that (just as Bodozla feared human civilization), and went about destroying the remains of the Protoculture who'd become a threat, as well as whatever remaining Supervision Army there was.

In much the same vein, the Protodevelin used what remained of the Megaroad-13 fleet, as well as the expedition fleet that went to find them, and turned them into a new Supervision Army to do their dirty work for them.

Yes, I'm well aware of this. However, part of the point in Macross II -- this is one of the good points in the story, IMO -- was that before the Marduk invasion, UN Spacy had it easy. Every few years a random Zentraedi fleet would show up, and they'd always fall victim to the Minmay Attack (well, Minmay Defense, technically) and/or culture shock, and UN Spacy would beat 'em with ease. Over the years, the UNS became complacent, overconfident, lazy and soft. Hence, when the Marduk showed up and were resistant to the Minmay Defense, UN Spacy found themselves unprepared for a "stand-up fight".

I think this is a really good idea for a storyline. Unfortunately, Macross II executed it pretty poorly. When I first heard that MII was going to be more of story of Culture Clash than Culture Shock, I was intrigued. And the idea of Battle Singers, who motivated enemy attackers and countered the Minmay effect -- that sounded so cool! I had this image of really intense, almost savage-looking alien musicians, beating on massive electronic drums... "The natives are restless" in a high-tech space war. But no. Instead, the alien Battle Singers turned out to be these willowy, anemic waifs who wail and moan lamely (it was supposed to be eerie, I think, but it wasn't). SUCH a disappointment.

Still, the basic idea is a good one, I think. Like much of Macross II, the basic idea just wasn't executed well.

It was a really good idea, especially when it was covered in the original series. We already get the whole storyline with culture shock no longer working, and it was done much better at that with Kamjin & Laplamiz choosing to go against human culture, gathering like minded Zentradi, and mounting an offensive against humanity. Macross II covers absolutely nothing new. The Minmay attack was already showed to fail when Kamjin was not only immune to it, but threw the kiss right back in Minmay's face. That's what prompted her final growth as a character.

To another extend Macross Plus also covered this, though it was obviously done after II, as did 7 with the Jamming Birds.

Well, y'know, good-lookin' alien broads always love Earthmen. I almost plotzed when Syvil the Protodevlin chick fell for Basara! I mean jeez, she's a freakin' abomination...!

Anyway, thoughts?

That's one of the most awesome moments in anime. Basara literally made her wet with excitement. Unlike the other Protodevelin, Sivil didn't automatically reject his power, she embraced the rawness of it, and eventually learned to create it herself. The Protodevelin not truly being evil in anway, they were just trying to survive in the universe like everyone else. Their only means of doing it being to feed off of the life of others. The reason they couldn't cope with anima spiritia was because it wasn't simply energy that could be drained away, but energy that perpetuated itself with more energy through good feeling & what not. Something that they apparently hadn't encountered in their native dimension. Once learning to sustain themselves, they were no longer a threat.

The only dissapointed I had with 7, was that Sivil didn't stay with Basara, as Mylene clearly belongs with Gamlin.

[Zinjo]

Saying that Mac II didn't cover anything new is like saying Mac 7 totally "sucked". Both are generalizations and both are wrong.

Kamjin and Laplamis were both drunk when they kissed, implying that it wasn't all that "easy" to dismiss human culture or music. Not to mention that just like anything, you become accustomed to something the more you are exposed to it. So Earth bound Zents would have a greater resistance to culture as opposed to fresh troops from space.

However, Mac II explored the "what if" question of a failed music/culture defense... It also explored what if the enemy used music to motivate their troops too! The idea of Spacy becoming so complacent with easy victories over rogue Zent fleets that they were completely unprepared for an enemy imune to the defence they had become to rely on so heavily. The cover up and censorship of the truth so keep the populace in the dark while the Earth faced very real annhilliation. The first instance of microns using mind control to control their Zent soldiers, we later find out in Mac 7 that is how the PD ran the Supervision Army as well (hence the reason why I would have like them to be the SA as it would actually fit into the canon timeline in that respect).

I would have rather that the Marduk be the Supervision Army and the series lasted longer as well as a few other bits changed, but it currently is what it is.

[MilSpex]

Hey Grebo Guru, listen to Kieth, he knows his stuff.

[Keith]

I'm sorry, but no, Macross II most definately did "not" cover aything new. It's not a generalization, it's a fact. 90% of it is directly copied from DYRL, and the other 10% is from the TV series. Since we're shown the Zentradi already had an equivilent of alchohol, being drunk doesn't weaken the fact that Kamjin threw the Minmay Attack right back in Minmay's face. The fact that he gathered up an assault force of already cultured Zentradi show this as well. The whole bit about the cocky complacent military was already in the TV series, you'll recall the whole incident with the Grand Cannon.

And I suggest you watch Macross II again, as music had nothig to do with the Marduk controlling their Zentradi. The style of mind control they used was more of a Pavlov response than anything. They could have just as easily used flashing lights, varrying degree of electric shock, or smells. The Marduk's Zentradi had 3 settings. Don't Attack, Attack, and Suicide Attack, with their mind control rigged to literally only respond to the 3 songs which envoked those 3 outcomes. Music meant absolutely nothing in the equasion, which is why the Minmay Attack there had no effect, i.e. those Zentradi had all independent thought capacities stripped away from them.

The Varuta in Macross 7 are another animal entirely, as they're more under a "brainwash" style of mind control than an absolute response type. They still show independent thought & tactics, can still converse like normal humans, they're just reprogrammed to think they work for the Protodevelin.

Edited October 30, 2006 by Keith

[Garou Kuroryuu]

Regarding the Minmay attack in both SDFM and DYRL, it seems that once the performance starts, all communication frequencies are saturated by it, both Zentran and micronian. If you look at the way the pilots operate (thou we only see Hikaru and briefly Max & Milia), seems like each one attacks a target/area independently, without coordination or cooperation with a squadron or other VF's and there's no evidence of radio talk during the broadcast (that I can remember right away). So I would assume that each pilot is given a certain area/quadrant to attack during the briefing, and a most surely disclaimer of "and you're alone on this one".

Once the effects of the "Minmay attack" start to fade, communications could be partially restored to a limited number of "secure" frequencies (previously given to pilots), so the Macross could regain coordination of its fighter wing and assign new targets/formations/orders, if needed. I have no evidence for the late, but I think it's pretty much a logical way to follow-up.

Edited October 30, 2006 by Garou Kuroryuu

[Zinjo]

I'm sorry, but no, Macross II most definately did "not" cover aything new. It's not a generalization, it's a fact. 90% of it is directly copied from DYRL, and the other 10% is from the TV series. Since we're shown the Zentradi already had an equivilent of alchohol, being drunk doesn't weaken the fact that Kamjin threw the Minmay Attack right back in Minmay's face. The fact that he gathered up an assault force of already cultured Zentradi show this as well. The whole bit about the cocky complacent military was already in the TV series, you'll recall the whole incident with the Grand Cannon.

Um the Grand Cannon is from SDFM not DYRL... Anyway that is not the meat of my argument anyway...

And I suggest you watch Macross II again, as music had nothig to do with the Marduk controlling their Zentradi. The style of mind control they used was more of a Pavlov response than anything. They could have just as easily used flashing lights, varrying degree of electric shock, or smells.

You are confusing the PD mind control with the Marduk's. It was the PD mind controlled humans who were little better than drooling zombies when found as opposed to the Zentran of the Marduk. The music was used to control their violent tendancies, not fetch a stick. The Marduk controlled the level of aggression via the various songs the emulators sang. When not in battle they appeared to be induced to sleep or into a catatonic state until next needed.

The Marduk's Zentradi had 3 settings. Don't Attack, Attack, and Suicide Attack, with their mind control rigged to literally only respond to the 3 songs which envoked those 3 outcomes. Music meant absolutely nothing in the equasion, which is why the Minmay Attack there had no effect, i.e. those Zentradi had all independent thought capacities stripped away from them.

I suggest you watch it again, but this time with a bit of objectivity. The music of the emulators was akin to soothing the savage beast, and it had everything to do with the equation. When Feff goes to retrieve Ishtar one of the bridge officers advises against it because he didn't have an emulator to control the Zentran, his response was " I don't care if I can control their violence" . Even without an emulator the Zentran accompanying him were able to effectively funcition, thus your theory doesn't hold up at all. The Minmay defense didn't work because the enemy was programmed only to respond to their emulators and the culture shock affect only irritated and momentarily confused the Zentreadi, it didn't paralize them as in DYRL.

The Varuta in Macross 7 are another animal entirely, as they're more under a "brainwash" style of mind control than an absolute response type. They still show independent thought & tactics, can still converse like normal humans, they're just reprogrammed to think they work for the Protodevelin.

The only brainwashed Varuta shown to display such abilities were the vampires in City 7, the pilot they captured was little more than a zombie until Firebomber's music revived him.

I put forth that it was the Varuta's mind control that was more of a pavlovina response, unless the mission demanded more autonomous behavior.

~~~~

I would suggest we drop this topic Keith, as we will never agree and the argument will go on for pages. Similar to the argument about Macross 7's kiddie nature...

Both arguments will take forever and nether of us will be convinced of the other's POV. I'd rather not hijack this thread for that.

[Keith]

Um the Grand Cannon is from SDFM not DYRL... Anyway that is not the meat of my argument anyway...

Psst, re-read that again chief. I never said the Grand Cannon was DYRL, nor did we ever specify this was just a DYRL comparison. What I actually said was that Macross II borrows 90% from DYRL, & 10% from Macross TV.

You are confusing the PD mind control with the Marduk's. It was the PD mind controlled humans who were little better than drooling zombies when found as opposed to the Zentran of the Marduk. The music was used to control their violent tendancies, not fetch a stick. The Marduk controlled the level of aggression via the various songs the emulators sang. When not in battle they appeared to be induced to sleep or into a catatonic state until next needed.

Um...no. The Protodevelin's Varuta forces were far from drooling zombies. They showed independent thought (capable of choosing who's orders to follow in conflicts between Gepelnitch & Gigil), they were capable of acting autonomously for long periods of time (while seperated from their main forces trying to capture City 7), were quite skilled in their technical abilities (who do you think rebuilt that Varuta fleet, not to mention the specific tasks involved with hijacking City 7's fold system), etc. All the Marduk Zentradi were capable of was "duh don't attack, duh attack, and kamizake attack!," which I already pointed out earlier. They had no specific skills, weren't capable of acting in any detailed though on their own, and were useless outside of combat. The music was an arbitrary trigger for the Marduk Zentradi, which as I said, could have just as easily been something else.

I suggest you watch it again, but this time with a bit of objectivity. The music of the emulators was akin to soothing the savage beast, and it had everything to do with the equation.

That's nothing more than conjecture on your part, not really based on anything. The music isn't shown to sooth them, it's merely a pre-determined trigger to envoke a predetermined response.

When Feff goes to retrieve Ishtar one of the bridge officers advises against it because he didn't have an emulator to control the Zentran, his response was " I don't care if I can control their violence" . Even without an emulator the Zentran accompanying him were able to effectively funcition, thus your theory doesn't hold up at all.[/qoute]

Um, no, all that means is that Ishtar left them set to "kill," before she left. Without the pre-determined stimuli, the Marduk were unable to set them to "don't kill so much," & "banzai!" It's not effectively functioning when all you do is continue the pre-deterimined setting you were last left at.

[qoute]The Minmay defense didn't work because the enemy was programmed only to respond to their emulators and the culture shock affect only irritated and momentarily confused the Zentreadi, it didn't paralize them as in DYRL.

Exactly. The Minmay Attack didn't work because the Marduk Zentradi had no free will, and had no mental capacities left to them aside from "don't kill, kill harder, & kill everything even yourself." If music truly had anything to do with their mind control (aside from being a pre-determined stimuli), then the Minmay Attack still would have affected them like it did the Marduk. What's the difference? One were labotomized zombie troops, and the other were not.

The only brainwashed Varuta shown to display such abilities were the vampires in City 7, the pilot they captured was little more than a zombie until Firebomber's music revived him.

I put forth that it was the Varuta's mind control that was more of a pavlovina response, unless the mission demanded more autonomous behavior.

The Protodevelin Mind control was more akin to replacing their normal human persona's, with persona's of a loyal military force. As I've clearly pointed out, they still had independent thought, were capable of communicating in words (as opposed to the Marduk Zentradi's "grunts"), were capable of complex tasks, working autonomously, and making choices. The term "Zombie" far better suits the Marduk Zentradi. What Fire Bomber's music did was awaken their original persona's, and snap them out of their control.

~~~~

I would suggest we drop this topic Keith, as we will never agree and the argument will go on for pages. Similar to the argument about Macross 7's kiddie nature...

Both arguments will take forever and nether of us will be convinced of the other's POV. I'd rather not hijack this thread for that.

You can drop if you like, but don't pretend for a second that this is an even sided discussion. Taking pot shots at Macross 7 to divert the topic also won't help you here. I know what your "POV" is, it's just wrong, as I've repeatedly proved it to be.

[azrael]

If both of you are done, let's keep the talk civil in this thread.

[Zinjo]

If both of you are done, let's keep the talk civil in this thread.

I'm done.

I've successfully argued my points about Mac 7 in previous threads, which is why I am not interested in rehashing old battles. Mac II always get's the tired old "we saw this in DYRL" without any definative proof, arguments invariably takes the place of microscoping the minutia of the movie which is weak at best and tedious at worst.

If Grebo Guru wants to read those threads, the search function will help him in that respect.

Baiting Keith about Mac 7 can be fun, but there are more intersting arguments to read.

If you haven't noticed Grebo, the gentleman known as Keith is a hardcore, diehard, Mac 7 fan and his POV is often colored by that. A smart and knowledgeable guy, but that is his achilles heal...

[Keith]

Actually, I'm a diehard "Macross Fan," which includes Zero, TV, DYRL, Plus, Plus ME, 7, Dynamite, and yes, I'm even quite knowledgable about II. I'd hardly consider it a weekness to actually "get" 7 though, that is afterall your loss.

[grebo guru]

I'm even quite knowledgable about II. I'd hardly consider it a weekness to actually "get" 7 though, that is afterall your loss.

Wow, and you're so modest, too!

[Keith]

Wow, and you're so modest, too!

Always!