Analyzing 'Space Folds'

[grebo guru]

Greetings all,

I'm no newbie to Macross (been following it since it started), but there are some rather specific technical issues I've been wondering about. See, I plan on running a Macross game sometime soon and so there are several Macross details I'm looking to learn more about.

(For those who are curious, I'll be using R. Talsorian Games' "Mekton Z" system rather than Palladium, which I find unsuitable. I wrote up specs for the Macross Plus VFs which were printed in an issue of V.Max magazine back in the '90s. They represent the kind of stats I plan on using.)

Anyway, here's one of my questions. If the subject(s) I bring up were discussed/answered in previous threads, I'd appreciate it if someone would point me to them. And if any of these matters have not been covered, I'd be thrilled by a discussion. Thanks!

Space Folds

In the TV series I got the impression that a space fold is instantaneous -- one moment you're at you're departure point, the next moment you're at your destination. Transit time would seem to be limited only to getting out of any obstructive gravity well. However, in later shows it seems like there is travel time in "foldspace" (or hyperspace, or subspace, or the bleed, or whatever you want to call it) as is the case in many sci-fi shows. Which is correct? And, if there is travel time in foldspace, are there any specifics which can be cited? Like, 1 minute per light year, or 1 hour per light year, or something like that?

Thanks in advance for your input, everyone!

Grebo

[azrael]

Please try to avoid starting topics with nearly identical headers in a relative short amount of time. It does looks like your spamming the board. Also, please remember to use the newbie thread (even if your not a newbie) to find answers to common/short questions.

http://macross.anime.net//story/encycloped...fold/index.html

[thegunny]

In the TV series I got the impression that a space fold is instantaneous

In the episode where Hikaru & Co were taken to the Bodal fleet HQ (First Contact I think) I remember Misa saying something like they'd been folding for a long time so they must have travelled a long way, so I'd say folding isn't instantaneous.

[Keith]

I've always been under the belief that there are "two" different methods for entering a space fold. Those methods I like to call the "point to point" (or bubble) fold, and partial (or long distance) fold. What we can say in absolute terms is that the distance a ship can travel while folding is directly relative to the amount of energy stored up & or used for the fold.

A point to point fold appears to completely fold the space inbetween two points of space, taking the contents within the bubble to destination point. You can see these types in cases such as the fold that took the Macross & South Atalia to Pluto, the Bodolza fleet's final fold into Earth Orbit, just about any fold that City 7 & the Varuta are seen making, and Liza's fold from the pirate outpost back to Zola. These types are "always" shown with a bubble.

The Partial styled fold is usually shown being done by Zentradi ships, the YF-19 & YF-21 in Macross Plus, and various other area's. These types are always shown with the ship speeding into a warp like state, traveling thorugh some type of tunnel/wormhole, and speeding out back into regular space with the same warp style effect. As shown by ships taking part in these folds, as well as Misa's dialogue while captured, these types of folds are definately not instantanious. I believe that while in this type of fold, space is only "partially" folded in on itself, likely to save on limited fold charge enemy, while stretching out the amount of space that can be traveled. Also likely that while traveling in these partial space folds, a ship still has to move through that space with its conventional engines. If Misa's dialogue is to be taken at face value, then this type of fold would also have the downside of a warp or faster than light travel, in that time moves faster for the world outside of those folds, than it does inside. This however would again explain Misa's dialogue about the amount of time they'll have been gone, as well as why it took 10 years for the Zentradi to catch up with the Macross after it crashed on Earth.

So to sum up, if a ship has sufficient fold charge, it can instananiously move from one point to another. But if the distance exceeds the amount of charge that the engines have, the ship can either partially fold space & move through the reduced distance conventionally, or wait to build up charge to re-enter an instant fold.

Edited October 23, 2006 by Keith

[sketchley]

Re: space folds

http://macross.anime.net//story/encycloped...fold/index.html

Despite the intrigueing theories presented, Keith, folds are all one, and the same. The difference we have to consider is that different animators portrayed the same thing differently - or that they don't really understand the nature of folding, instead opting for something that looks like Star Trek's warp speed, or Star Wars' FTL travel.

A theory that myself, and another member of a Macross related RPG have brainstormed is readable here: http://www.macrossrpg.com/docs/index.php/Space_Fold_Travel

It should be taken with a grain of salt, and it isn't exactly 'Macross technical words accurate,' however, it is our attempt to justify the sometimes extremely lengthy travel times required in Macross, when a true fold should be instantaneous (even faster than the 'quick' wormhole jumps of Stargate.)

Re: the reason why 'it took the Zentraedi 10 years to track the SDF-1 Macross": http://macross.anime.net//story/chronology/2009/index.html (See the 2009.Feb.7 entry.

[Keith]

Actually, there's nothing in the Macross Compendium there that disproves anything I just said. Fact of the matter is, Kawamori has never gone into great detail on how fold works.

[thegunny]

You two need to get out in the sun a bit more

[grebo guru]

This is awesome stuff. Exactly the kind of information I was looking for. Thanks very much guys!

Actually, there's nothing in the Macross Compendium there that disproves anything I just said. Fact of the matter is, Kawamori has never gone into great detail on how fold works.

[mechaninac]

The way I look at it, the perception of time, and it's relativistic time dilation effects in the Macross universe's version of space fold is entirely distance and energy dependent. Like Keith posited, the distance a ship can fold is related to the amount of energy a space fold generator can muster and/or handle. Unlike Keith, I think that there is only one type of fold, but it's effects on the passage of time within the fold relative to the rest of the universe is dependent upon the distance being traversed in a somewhat exponential relationship: the longer the distance the greater the relativistic time dilation. Therefore, the SDF-1's impromptu fold to Pluto's orbit would seem instantaneous to those on-board, and anyone observing from Earth; but the fold to Bodolza's headquarters would have taken days or weeks within the folding ship, and several weeks or months to an Earth bound observer. In a way, fold in Macross seems to be somewhat akin to near light speed travel in real space, in that the faster you go the more time slows down to the traveler; but in Macross, distance, and not speed, is the factor.

My two cents on the subject.

Man, did I just geek out that much??? Well, at least it's out of my system for a while.

[sketchley]

Ok... going back to the original post, to disect it...

A point to point fold (...) Macross & South Atalia to Pluto, the Bodolza fleet's final fold into Earth Orbit, just about any fold that City 7 & the Varuta are seen making, and Liza's fold from the pirate outpost back to Zola. These types are "always" shown with a bubble.

The Partial styled fold is usually shown being done by Zentradi ships, the YF-19 & YF-21 in Macross Plus, and various other area's. (...)

You are mentioning some very important things for the nature of the fold, but overlooking a key point: the size of the fold "bubble."

The really big space folds (sic. point to point) create a 'bubble' that is larger than the ship, or object, and tend to transport more than the ship, or object. Examples would be the SDF-1 carting along South Ataria island, and the group of Varuta ships that surrounded the City 7 section.

The smaller space folds (sic. partial styled fold) only effect the ship, or object being folded. The best example is the Zentraedi Flagship in DYRL - Hikaru and Minmei escape in a VT-1 just after the ship enters fold. The moment that they are outside of the ship (essentially outside of the fold 'bubble',) they reappear in real space. Luckily for them, it was within the atmosphere of Earth, and not deep space, or worse, INSIDE of Earth.

In other words, it looks visually cool if ships appear to accelerate into space fold, but it would look rediculous and laughable if large objects (South Ataria island, for example,) are also seen accelerating into a space fold.

Perhaps something to consider is the initial speed of the vehicle, or object, prior to spacefold. In Macross Plus, the YF-19 was already travelling at high speed before entering the space fold. That explains why it 'zips' into a fold. The question then becomes, why, when the same vehicle reappears in normal space, in orbit around Earth, is it not moving?

So to sum up, if a ship has sufficient fold charge, it can instananiously move from one point to another. But if the distance exceeds the amount of charge that the engines have, the ship can either partially fold space & move through the reduced distance conventionally, or wait to build up charge to re-enter an instant fold.

I think some time should be spent looking at what little information has been provided by the creators of Macross on the subject:

Shinnakasu Industry/OTEC FBF-1000A external prototype fighter fold booster (currently not certified for performing beyond an one-way limit of 20 light years.)

From: http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat...yf21/index.html

This limitation was highlighted in Macross 7, when Diamond Force folded to the captured City 7, and the fold boosters begain sparking in a dangerous way. The information also clearly states that despite the amount of energy, or charge, applied to a fold drive, there is still a maximum limit. In this case, the fold drive could probably go beyond 20 light years, but how much further until it becomes dangerous? It is definitely not a 'go anywhere' device. I also am of the opinion that the distance that a fold drive can go is based on a) how much energy it can store up in capacitors before folding, and b) how long before the device begins malfunctioning - overheating, for a lack of a better word.

As for the nature of space folds in general:

"(...) a fold transports a spacecraft in a very short amount of time by first swapping the location of the spacecraft with super dimension space or subspace, and then swapping the super dimension space with the space at the destination. "

http://macross.anime.net/story/encyclopedi...fold/index.html

In other words, no fold is instantaneous, some just appear to occur faster, because less distance is travelled. The distance of a space fold is entirely dependent on a) how far the space fold generator can travel, and b) how much energy is applied to it.

Mechaninac, you are close with your description of required times. From the last link provided above: "(...)an hour passes in super dimension space as approximately ten days passes in normal space."

If I'm not mistaken, the fold from Earth to Bodolza's HQ in "First Contact" took approximately 1 hour. However, after escaping and returning back to Earth (in the next episode), 20+ days had passed on Earth. Sadly, no indication on the distance travelled at that time, nor are there any other definite indications of the amount of time spent in fold in any later productions. I guess we could look at the fold to Pluto, as that length of time is documented... but at the same time, was it artistically made to look longer, to increase the tension of the scene?

Edited October 24, 2006 by sketchley

[Nied]

Just timed it myself. From the time the Macross completely dematerialized to when it completely re-materialized was aproximately 30 seconds. Exedol and Vrlitwhai had are able to have a whole conversation before it defolded.

[Keith]

One thing to note. The limit on Diamond Force's fold wasn't a limit on the performance of the fold booster itself, but a limit on the frame of the VF-17, i.e. it could only maintain so much stress before it would shake apart. A sturdier Valkyrie (such as the VF-19 or VF-22) would have had a much longer range with the same fold booster.

[sketchley]

Erm... as the VF-11 MAXL, VF-17, VF-19, and VF-22 are all designed to take the fold booster (at the very least, Kawamori has created line art depicting all those combinations,) I don't think that the stress of a fold had much to do with the performance of the fold boosters.*

I can't remember the dialogue of the scene 100%, and you may be right. But what I do remember strongly, is that when they defolded, they ejected the boosters right away, and the boosters appeared to be in the throws of malfunction. Therefore, the boosters were maxed out (and quite possibly, the Diamond Force pilots were put through a rough ride en route.)

*EDIT: forgot the prototype of the VF-11 - it also apparently can mount and use a fold booster.

Edited October 24, 2006 by sketchley

[Keith]

All Valkyries eject fold their fold boosters immediately, it's pretty much a stock manuever.

[ComicKaze]

Macross is just a TV show. What you see on the screen occurs to suit the narrative. When you see characters sitting in a Zentran cruiser talking while time distorts around them - it's there because the narrative wants to give you time to see them discuss what's happening, etc.

I think folds are relative in any case. The greater the distance, the more "time distortion" you have to sit through. For a space fold, the earth to the moon is really less than a light hop and so goes by in the blink of an eye...but going to ancient and derelict areas of the universe millions of light years away will still take "time" depending on your relative perception.

[Keith]

There's another incredibly under-explained aspect to this everyone's forgetting, that being 'Fold Communication." Assumedly, this is a long distance communication signal that by all indications has no time delay at all. My theory being this can be so, because a much smaller portion of space needs to be folded in order to send communications over long distances. The term first popped up during DYRL (I think), and was later fleshed out a bit with the whole Galaxy Network concept, i.e. a network of instantanious communication that connects all of the colonies, colony fleets, & earth.

[sketchley]

Yes, it's the Macross version of Star Trek's sub-space communications. In Macross, they use super dimension space.

Some people, somewhere, had a theory that the two towers seen in the line art for New Edwards base are, in fact, sub-space communications antenna.

EDIT: forgot to mention that the VA-3C (or at least only the Kai version of it,) can also mount a fold booster - a la Macross Dynamite 7 (or at least the line art from that OVA series.)

Edited October 25, 2006 by sketchley