VF-1 Today

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

besides, if you want to go technical, you don't need a highly aerodinamic craft anymore, with today technology, planes are designed to be aerodynamic inneficient making them more agile, and the stability controlled by fly by wire tech' (as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong), so, the VF-0 or VF-1 don't need to be too sleek

The stuff today is a lot more aerodynamic. But more unstable. Sleek is important. Sleek was imoprtant back in WW2 and is more important today. Thats why you see blended forms and internal weapons carriage on the latest USAF designs.

Unstable is not the same as un-aerodynamic!

[mechaninac]

The stuff today is a lot more aerodynamic. But more unstable. Sleek is important. Sleek was imoprtant back in WW2 and is more important today. Thats why you see blended forms and internal weapons carriage on the latest USAF designs.

Unstable is not the same as un-aerodynamic!

Like you said, modern fighter aircraft are designed to be inherently unstable to improve maneuverability. However, internal weapons stores on fighters have far more to do with stealth considerations than aerodynamics. Sleek is important, but sleek in the right places to maximize lift, minimize drag, and optimize control surface efficiency is paramount: Yukikase aircraft may be sleek, but they are drag hogs with no aerodynamic merit, and if able to fly would do so only through brute force. The same can be extrapolated to all the VFs.

The VF-0 series, having been penned 1/4 century after the VF-1, naturally looks more streamlined, even more sophisticated, than the VF-1... that's only natural. Within the continuity, the VF-0 is, maybe, more primitive as a narrative device; hence the fuel burning engines (I know it was to have prototypes of the thermonuclear power plants installed), inability to operate in space (assumedly), larger size, etc. Another way to look at the relationship between the VF-0 and VF-1 is to take the Gundam universe as an example: The VF-0 is akin, after a fashion, to the RX series mobile suits and the VF-1s are the RGMs. The VF-0 was more complex and slightly more sophisticated precisely because it was a test bed for the VF-1, and included features that would not find their way into future VFs until they matured and/or became easy to manufacture.

[Noyhauser]

Please read the article cited. It does mention about them in the Japanese way of leaving things unsaid, but implied.

There is no mention nor indication that it was designed to counteract Anti-UN weapons, and by all appearances, it was forced into that role by simply being the only working VF at the time.

I really don't care what a mistranslated fansub claims that the Japanese are saying. Egan Loo has time, and time again proven to have provided superior translations into English, and has excellent access to the creators (though, I still disagree with the whole Zentraedi names in English thing.)

To clarify:

VF-0 = Test bed and trial production model

VF-1 = production model

They are the same plane... just at different stages of development. Test and trial usually implies that there are more bells and whistles added. Production usually means it is more economical (read: less bells and whistles,) and the manufacturing process has been made easier by altering the design to the capabilities and limits of the assembly line.

Agree with that fully, especially the translation bit. There is nothing definitive at the least to say that the VF-0 was ever intended to have thermonuclear engines. If anything I took his remarks to mean that they were waiting for the VF-1's engines to be completed. If you look at the stats the VF-1 is superior in almost every single catagory over the VF-0. Why would you make a fighter that large when you could make it almost 1/2 the size, with the same effectiveness? Its a technology test bed at best, and a stop gap. Its NOT a superior fighter, nor a superior design.

I know I put forward the Anti-UN fighter theory, but it was completely conjecture. My ultimate point though is that the two planes must follow different design philosophies because one is intended to run a conventional engine, the other a thermonuclear turbine. Once you admit that, then their designs must diverge signficantly.

Edited October 20, 2006 by Noyhauser

[Zinjo]

In actual fact, kawamori says he designed the battroid first and worked backward and says he was surprised the Valkyrie resembles the F-14 so much (place any skepticism here)...

I believe that the VF-0 was most likely a modified airframe from an existing aircraft design. When one considers that the X-23 was a modified F-5 airframe with forward swept wings. The VF-0 is 18.69m similar to the F-14 which is 19.1m in length. Whereas the VF-1 is 14.23m in lenth a full 4m shorter.

If it were somehow related to the VF-1 it would have had a YF or XF designation instead of a VF. It was a testbed for the OTEC technology in variable fighters. Thus as already stated, there were many cool features the test fighters carried that never made it into the production models.

However the VF-1 was much more heavily armored compared to the VF-0 and fully trans-atmospheric, which the VF-0 was not, as far as all revealed information has told us.

Apearance wise, it does look dated however, but that doesn't negate the fact it was mainly built as a transforming battroid, that flies into space, which makes sense in that Spacy probably always meant to meet the alien threat in space and avoid any planetary battles if possible...

[David Hingtgen]

IMHO the VF-1 is just plain blocky, regardless of when it was designed. When Kawamori was sketching it up, the very sleek F-16 was already well-known. And the F-14 and 15 are sleeker than the VF-1.

[eugimon]

if the vf-0 was not intended to have the fusion engines, explain why it has shutters on the intakes and it has a sealed cockpit... not features seen on a atmosphere only aircraft.

[sketchley]

There is a picture in the Tenjin Hidetaka Valkyries book that has a VF-0B (two seater, with a VF-0A head) with the English words 'Space Proving Wing' stenciled on the side.

It was also shown (and mentioned,) that the VF-0 can operate with closed intakes for a short period of time.

Therefore, the implications are that the VF-0 was used in some kind of space training, testing, or flying. My two-cents are super high-atmosphere/low orbit testing - just high enough that the air is too thin for a normal plane to work, but not high enough to actually be in space proper; but that's just my take on it.

[mister_e]

if the vf-0 was not intended to have the fusion engines, explain why it has shutters on the intakes and it has a sealed cockpit... not features seen on a atmosphere only aircraft.

Maybe they were testing the technology because they knew they would eventually need it when they got around to the VF-1?? I have no idea really, just a guess

[Zinjo]

There is a picture in the Tenjin Hidetaka Valkyries book that has a VF-0B (two seater, with a VF-0A head) with the English words 'Space Proving Wing' stenciled on the side.

Well Hidetaka could have been "speculating" as well. SK never drew any sketches showing the VF-0 in space.

I see no evidence of a "sealed" cockpit, only the presence of a full face shield on the helmet, instead of an oxygen mask. Hardly definitive proof it was designed for space flight.

For all we know there were a few VF-1 Valkyries in space already going through trials, using rocket engines, it simply isn't mentioned anywhere.

[JB0]

I see no evidence of a "sealed" cockpit, only the presence of a full face shield on the helmet, instead of an oxygen mask. Hardly definitive proof it was designed for space flight.

Well, the cockpit doesn't leak underwater...

[sketchley]

Well Hidetaka could have been "speculating" as well. SK never drew any sketches showing the VF-0 in space.

I see no evidence of a "sealed" cockpit, only the presence of a full face shield on the helmet, instead of an oxygen mask. Hardly definitive proof it was designed for space flight.

For all we know there were a few VF-1 Valkyries in space already going through trials, using rocket engines, it simply isn't mentioned anywhere.

The work was commisioned for the VF-0B model kit created by Hasegawa. In other words, it's doubtful that stuff that isn't going to be on the model is going to be on the box cover.

SK didn't draw any sketches of the VF-1 in space either. Sure he, and others, did story boards (and eventually animated sequences) of the VF-1 in space. However, until an art book on Macross Zero is released, we may never know if there were any sequences of the VF-0 in space being planned, or not.

At the time of Macross Zero, the VF-1 was already completed, but it's thermonuclear engines were not. As has been stressed repeatedly in this thread, the VF-0 and VF-1 are different because of the very nature of their engines. It is doubtful that an unpowered VF-1 would be used in space. It is probable that other existing space fighters (such as the Hound Dog, Lancer II, etc.) would be used to gather space maneuvering data; even Destroids too, for that matter. But, as none of them are able to transform...

Re: sealed cockpits - all jet fighter cockpits are sealed; AKA pressurized. They are pressurized to keep sea-level atmospheric pressure when the jet is far above sea level. The same principles apply to vehicles leaving the atmosphere: keep the air inside. The big difference is keeping things out of the cockpit (ex: water, other fluids.) It has been shown that the VF-0 is capable of doing that too.

And for further fun - even Hikaru Ichijo's fan racer has a sealed cockpit and he is able to remain alive in space, while inside of it.

Edited October 21, 2006 by sketchley

[Lightning]

Even Hikaru's magic bike was able to go in space!