VF-1 Today

[Scream Man]

the Vf-0 mecha is supposed to be the forerunner to the vf-1, though in design and appearance it is much sleeker. Now obviously real world reasoning knows why; the new series was made more than 20 years after the old one, and the astehtics of the designer have changed. But it makes me wonder what the vf-1 would have looked like if it was being designed today.

Would it be bigger? sleeker? would we see a control scheem and cockpit that more accurately shows 'future technology'? i mean lets face it, the Zeros interface seems much more intuitive than the ones. Transformation is done through manipulating the throttle instead of seperate control slides/levers. controls screens running the whole uinside of the cockpit, instead of several smaller monitors. helmets with HUDS inbuilt as opposed to just being helmets.

and on the outside; the 0 has more detailed heads on its A,d and S types than the vf-1s. the battroids appear to be sleeker than their later counterparts. More smooth edges and less blocky.

Does anyone but m wonder what Kowamori would draw for the vf-1 if he designed them today? And would we like them more or less?

[David Hingtgen]

If it was designed today, it probably wouldn't have swing-wings. Interestingly it'd certainly have thrust-vectoring nozzles.

[lechuck]

Hasn't Kawamori basically done that already with those VFEX-Valks he drew up.

I think one of them was called Schneeblume or something.

They looked vf-1-ish and also kept the swing wings... Looked good overall except

for the A-type Aibo dog head. Hmmm...I wonder what a VFEX S-Type head would look like...

On the otherhand you could also say the VF-0 is the re-imagining of a modern day VF-1...

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Well, for one thing, no Centrally mounted control yoke (but they already fixed that in DYRL to the HOTAS style).

I think the canopy will be changed. More VF-0 style or single piece. Maybe 3D nozzles instead of 2D.

If it was me designing it, it'll look like a YF-21. But without the stupid un-aerodynamic canopy buldge.

[sketchley]

The throttle controlled transformation (or at least, all-mode control sticks) was introduced with the DYRL version of the VF-1 (Block 6 and later, to be technical.)

Thrust vectoring is present on the VF-1. It wasn't really shown until the intro animation of the DYRL game for the Sega Saturn/PS1. Of course, as this pre-dates Macross Zero and the designs of the VF-0...

If anything, it'd look more like the SV-51. I believe that is the direction that Shouji Kawamori is taking transforming airplanes, and there is a lot more crammed into that nasty plane, then is readily apparent.

[Sebastian]

I trully think the design on the macross Zero Valks, in pretty much all aspects is better and more acurate/adecuate with modern days compared with the VF 1 line. As Scream Man said already it is because we have 20 years difference between the shows. I guess we should just change the mecha design between the TV series and the Zero and everything would be just perfect exept for the F.P. and the whole zero graviy concept we cannot see in M. Zero.

This makes me think Mr Kawamori should seriously DROP the "save the Earth" thing he is into (nice, really nice, but I prefer Macross) and give us a new and revised TV series, and of course, with new mecha. Then everything will be fine in my book.

[jardann]

I really don't think the VFs from Macross Zero look more advanced than the VF-1s from the original. Yeah, the animation is more detailed, but if you ask me the shapes of the planes are even closer to modern day jet fighters than the Vf-1s were. The fact that the Vf-0s are much bigger actually kind of supports this feeling for me. Newer better technology resulted in smaller, faster and stronger VF-1s. The VF-1s would also be much more compatible with their role as atmospheric and space capable ships. Smaller means less fuel to reach orbit, less fuel needed all around and more space in a mothership's hangar. And to me, I see no VF-0 resemblance to the F-22 or the JSF designs. In fact, I think the VF-1 actually has a lot of similarities with the JSF except for the swing wings and pointy nose. I chalk up the idea that people think the VF-0s look more advanced, only to the fact that the animation is flashier and more detailed. I like the VF-0 series, but don't love them, they look a little clunky to me in battloid mode. And the SV-51, while cool, looks like it will break if it was hit a glancing blow, or even just tried to stand up in battloid mode. Anyway, just my opinion, and I'm sure this argument will go on and on.

Have fun!

[bsu legato]

If the VF-1 were designed today, it would look like the VF-0. It represents not only the styling of real-world aircraft, but an advancement in both anime deisgn and Kawamori-sama's skills and aesthetic. To me, the VF-0 is a "do-over" of the original designs, just like all the mobile suits were redesigned for Gundam 0080. They get new names to keep the continuity fanboys quiet, but at heart they're essentially a remake.

[ghostryder]

Assuming a swing-wing design, I would say the VF-1 wouldn't look too much different if designed today. Maybe 3-D vectoring nozzles and less right angles to reduce radar signature, but I think it would still look more or less blocky like the F-22 and JSF. The VF-0 was a technology test-bed, while the VF-1 was mass-produced mecha whose airframe likely wasn't optimized for aerospace maneuverability (raw power from the reaction engines would compensate a lot). Rather, it seems more fitting that it would be designed for economy, ease of repair, and maximum compatability with add-ons (fastpacks, boosters, etc).

Edited October 17, 2006 by ghostryder

[Noyhauser]

Sigh... didn't we have this discussion just yesterday?

I agree with Jardann. The VF-1 looks and FEELs like the successor to the VF-0. Smaller, Nimbler, better engines, ect. I don't think it needs to be changed given the context its in.

[emajnthis]

Assuming a swing-wing design, I would say the VF-1 wouldn't look too much different if designed today. Maybe 3-D vectoring nozzles and less right angles to reduce radar signature, but I think it would still look more or less blocky like the F-22 and JSF. The VF-0 was a technology test-bed, while the VF-1 was mass-produced mecha whose airframe likely wasn't optimized for aerospace maneuverability (raw power from the reaction engines would compensate a lot). Rather, it seems more fitting that it would be designed for economy, ease of repair, and maximum compatability with add-ons (fastpacks, boosters, etc).

That sounds about right, except i would imagine the heatshield would be less complex like it is on the Zero, and definitely agree with less 90 degree angles.

[Mr March]

While the fiction of the Macross franchise tells us the VF-0 from Macross Zero is less technologically advanced than the VF-1 from SDF Macross, the actual aesthetic and aerodynamic design of the VF-0 is basically a more modern VF-1. Kawamori is also a more experienced artist now and the VF-0 represents both a better, more realistic mecha and more modern fighter design elements. THere's not much left to the imagination at this point.

[Knight26]

Man it seems like only last march that Phalanx brought up the same idea:

http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=18042

[Nied]

I'm to lazy to re-write the post I wrote in that thread so I'm just going to quote it here:

Dang Radd I was going to post something on the SW-XA1 when I got home from work, but you beat me to it.

All right Phalanx you've got at least four re-designs of the VF-1 (five if you count the VF-2).

I think part of the problem you are having here is that you are only comparing the VF-1 to one style of modern fighter design The VF-1's design may be anachronistic compared to American designs like the F-22 (or F-35 for that matter) but compared to most other country's new fighters it fits right in (the VF-4 with it's canards and delta wing even more so). Take a look at the pictures in the links below, all of these planes are as new or newer than the F-22.

Eurofighter Typhoon (UK, Italy, Spain, and Germany)

Dassault Rafale (France)

Saab JAS 39 Gripen (Sweden)

Mig-35 (Russia)

Chengdu J-10 (China)

Mitusbishi F-2 (Japan)

IAI Lavi (Israel)

ADA Tejas (India)

[David Hingtgen]

Just to nitpick, but the Rafale's much older than the F-22. It was flying the 80's. I think the Rafale is the record holder for "longest gap between flying prototype and service entry". And isn't the MiG-29S now the MiG-35 officially?

[JB0]

If the VF-1 were designed today, it'd be a shameless Eva knockoff with wings.

[kensei]

I'd kick Kawamori's arse personally if he did make that, and it transformed into something like Gundam Wing Zero.

[sketchley]

(attempting to stick to fresh debate ideas):

IMHO, every and all VFs have some kind of swivel, or swing wings. Its part-and-parcel with the transformation process (wings fold up, swivel behind, flatten themselves against the torso, etc.,) to make a more compact battroid mode.

True, the VF-22's wings don't swivel, but they still fold in on themselves - plus they can be stretched and distorted...

So, yeah, swing/swivel/folding wings are a given in any transforming fighter...

[Zinjo]

Sigh... didn't we have this discussion just yesterday?

I agree with Jardann. The VF-1 looks and FEELs like the successor to the VF-0. Smaller, Nimbler, better engines, ect. I don't think it needs to be changed given the context its in.

Ditto!

However, I would suspect SK would go for a more aerodynamic shape as in less boxy, but the fighter would retain all the original aspects, similar to the VF-EX's that we've seen. The SDFM VF-1 is boxier than the F-14 it resembles so in that respect it could use an update.

However if he changed it to look as bumpy and as large as the VF-0, I too would have to kick him in the pantaloons...

What makes the VF-0 so visually appealing is not so much it's design, but more the fact that we got some kick ass CG visuals of it in action, IMO. Some prefer the traditional cell animation of the variables, but I enjoy the CG much better.

Give me an SW-XA1 type as the VF-1 in CGI and I'd need to change my shorts...

Who knows, if Bigwest and Nue can successfully win the rights to the story of SDF Macross, we may well see an updated OVA series of the original with all the advancements in modern animation, that is solely owned by Bigwest.

Who knows...

Edited October 18, 2006 by Zinjo

[Ignacio Ocamica]

As others said it would look like the Schneeblume.

Or maybe like the VF-3000!

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Just to nitpick, but the Rafale's much older than the F-22. It was flying the 80's. I think the Rafale is the record holder for "longest gap between flying prototype and service entry". And isn't the MiG-29S now the MiG-35 officially?

Yup, I think the Prototype Rafale A was up in the air back in 1984!!!!

Thats what 35 hour work weeks gives you I suppose.

[Mephistopheles]

I think it'd look more like the F-14. Yeah, I know it is based off the F-14 but I think he would have made the VF-1 look more sleek, less blocky and resemble the F-14 just a bit more.

[myk]

It wouldn't look like the F-14 because that design is so 80's. If Macross would have been conceived now it would resemble the F-35, 22, YF-23 or heck probably Masterpiece Starscream...

Edited October 19, 2006 by myk

[sketchley]

Isn't the F-14 a '70's design?

[ghostryder]

Well, the full mockup was done in 1969, so technically the F-14 airframe is a "60s" design .

Edited October 19, 2006 by ghostryder

[Noyhauser]

Actually also people forget that the VF-1 was intended to be a battroid that can turn into a fighter, while the VF-0 was a fighter that could be a battroid for limted times. SK designed the VF-1 that way. Remember that the VF-1 was designed for one thing, to stop the zentredi. Humans had 100 years of experience making aerodynamic fighters, they had none making battroids. So their main concentration was building an effective battroid rather than a fighter, and let overtechnology make up for any deficiencies. Moreover the VF-0 is a fighter that relies on fuel, it NEEDs streamlining, while the VF-1 doesn't because it relies on a fusion turbine to do everything.

Two different design philosophies, two different designs.

[eugimon]

uhm... the VF-0 was going to get the fusion engines as well, but they were delayed... the UN knew about the big bad aliens when the Vf-0 was designed since they built it with OT from ASS-1...

and no matter what the fuel, anything that flies in the air and is supposed to be able to carry on the mission of a fighter, is going to be streamlined... so it can go fast and turn and stuff.

the VF-0 is the updated VF-1 design... I'm pretty sure mr K. has already said his original design for the VF-0 was something more old school and in keeping with the era, but decided to go with the current design instead, which borrows heavily from his more current designs and incorporates design ideas from modern day fighter aircraft.

[Noyhauser]

uhm... the VF-0 was going to get the fusion engines as well, but they were delayed... the UN knew about the big bad aliens when the Vf-0 was designed since they built it with OT from ASS-1...

and no matter what the fuel, anything that flies in the air and is supposed to be able to carry on the mission of a fighter, is going to be streamlined... so it can go fast and turn and stuff.

the VF-0 is the updated VF-1 design... I'm pretty sure mr K. has already said his original design for the VF-0 was something more old school and in keeping with the era, but decided to go with the current design instead, which borrows heavily from his more current designs and incorporates design ideas from modern day fighter aircraft.

Umm no. Anime.net

http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat.../vf0/index.html

Trial production model and testbed for advanced jet engines and Overtechnology designed for future variable fighters. Deployed for actual combat and functional testing when delivery of VF-1 Valkyrie variable fighter's thermonuclear reaction engines were delayed. Flown over the South Pacific Ocean island of Mayan during a secret program one to two years before Space War I. (Emphasis added)

To me the VF-0 was designed to deal with the current threat of the Anti-UN's top line fighters, not the Zentredi (which was a more current threat). Sure it was a test bed, but

Also I get your point about the need for Aerodynamics, but again the VF-1's primary operating mode seems to me to be battroid, rather than fighter. According to the Compendium, the fighter mode was intended to be the same as contemporary fighters... therefore they were able to make it smaller, with far more powerful engines to achieve the same effect as having a streamlined fighter. Their main focus though was to give it battroid mode... which they had never done before. So they took some liberties on aspect of the design in order to give it a powerful battroid mode.

Edited October 19, 2006 by Noyhauser

[JB0]

Umm no. Anime.net

http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat.../vf0/index.html

Ummm... that just says the VF-0 was never intended to be deployed in a combat capacity, but was anyways because the VF-1 wasn't ready.

There's nothing that even implies the VF-0 was intended to use fusion engines.

Also I get your point about the need for Aerodynamics, but again the VF-1's primary operating mode seems to me to be battroid, rather than fighter. According to the Compendium, the fighter mode was intended to be the same as contemporary fighters... therefore they were able to make it smaller, with far more powerful engines to achieve the same effect as having a streamlined fighter. Their main focus though was to give it battroid mode... which they had never done before. So they took some liberties on aspect of the design in order to give it a powerful battroid mode.

The VF-1 is a fighter first.

Battroid mode makes far more concessions to the fighter mode than fighter does to battroid.

If it'd been designed as a battroid first, you'd see something more like MOSPEADA or Gundam, where fighter more relies mainly on brute force to stay up.

[eugimon]

Umm no. Anime.net

http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat.../vf0/index.html

To me the VF-0 was designed to deal with the current threat of the Anti-UN's top line fighters, not the Zentredi (which was a more current threat). Sure it was a test bed, but

Also I get your point about the need for Aerodynamics, but again the VF-1's primary operating mode seems to me to be battroid, rather than fighter. According to the Compendium, the fighter mode was intended to be the same as contemporary fighters... therefore they were able to make it smaller, with far more powerful engines to achieve the same effect as having a streamlined fighter. Their main focus though was to give it battroid mode... which they had never done before. So they took some liberties on aspect of the design in order to give it a powerful battroid mode.

watch the anime... the mechanic says that they put in the fossile fuel engines BECAUSE the fusion ones weren't ready... which implies that the zero was intended to have the fusion engines all along.

what liberties for battroid mode? please explain... how is the zero a better plane and the vf-1 a better battroid?

BTW, you still haven't addressed the whole issue of ASS-1... they knew about the giant aliens.

[sketchley]

Please read the article cited. It does mention about them in the Japanese way of leaving things unsaid, but implied.

There is no mention nor indication that it was designed to counteract Anti-UN weapons, and by all appearances, it was forced into that role by simply being the only working VF at the time.

I really don't care what a mistranslated fansub claims that the Japanese are saying. Egan Loo has time, and time again proven to have provided superior translations into English, and has excellent access to the creators (though, I still disagree with the whole Zentraedi names in English thing.)

To clarify:

VF-0 = Test bed and trial production model

VF-1 = production model

They are the same plane... just at different stages of development. Test and trial usually implies that there are more bells and whistles added. Production usually means it is more economical (read: less bells and whistles,) and the manufacturing process has been made easier by altering the design to the capabilities and limits of the assembly line.

Edited October 20, 2006 by sketchley

[JB0]

They are the same plane... just at different stages of development. Test and trial usually implies that there are more bells and whistles added. Production usually means it is more economical (read: less bells and whistles,) and the manufacturing process has been made easier by altering the design to the capabilities and limits of the assembly line.

The saddest example of that in Macross is the VF-22 losing the flexible shape-changing wings of the YF-21.

...

C'mon, those were awesome!

[David Hingtgen]

I doubt the VF-0 and VF-1 are the same design, at different stages. Especially with how very well Kawamori knows and follows current aircraft naming conventions, even in the Macross universe. He would have called the VF-0 the "YVF-1" or "YF-1" if he intended it to be an earlier version of the design.

I would draw a parallel with the F-111B and F-14. The F-14 is an "emergency replacment" pressed into service with inferior engines, due to the pure suckiness of the F-111B. As many parts and systems from the F-111 as possible were used, and just as many were taken from the A-6, to get it ready as soon as possible. The F-111B was supposed to be the Navy's primary high-speed Phoenix-launching bomber-shooting interceptor, not the F-14.

Same design goal, same features and weapons, same designers (Grumman helped on the F-111 a lot), similar configuration---but different planes in the end. Ironically, like the VF-0 vs VF-1, the F-111 was also a lot bigger than the F-14 (which above all was the #1 problem).

I doubt Kawamori went with this parallel intentionally (unlike the YF-22/YF-23 definitely being the basis for Macross Plus) but it does work quite well.

[Valkyrie addict]

Hi, new here, great forum guys!

I was under the impression that the VF-1 was designed by Kawamori first as a fighter, and then he would figure out a way to make it turn into a battroid

besides, I agree with what most people have said, the VF-0 y basicly an updated design on the VF-1, how would you feel if you put your spanking new Macross zero DVD and saw a square aircraft flying around, it would just look odd

besides, if you want to go technical, you don't need a highly aerodinamic craft anymore, with today technology, planes are designed to be aerodynamic inneficient making them more agile, and the stability controlled by fly by wire tech' (as far as I know, correct me if I'm wrong), so, the VF-0 or VF-1 don't need to be too sleek

and also, the VF-1 was mostly designed to space combat, so, aerodynamic efficiency isn't a big deal

just my 2c

[Scream Man]

u guys are focusing al ot on the exterior, but what got me thinking about it was the interior designs. the vf-1 is so very retro, with slides and levers and small monitors, whereas the 0 has integrated systems and full surround picture view of the area. and like, 40 less controls. i suppose u could argue all those controls were for space and the neuclear engines, but i doubt it...

Is there every any lineart explaining what all the stuff ina vf-1 does?