VF-1 armpit thrusters

[Mephistopheles]

With all the information on the VF-1 I've found no information on the thrusters located on the sides of the torso of the battroid underneath the arms. Models either lack the closed shutters or if the shutters are present you cannot open them. How they manage to get there is unexplained nor do you see them in any other mode.

If you can't picture what I am talking about then watch the Pineapple Salad episode to around the fifteen to sixteen minute mark where Max is fighting Milla. There will be a split screen showing Max's hand on the throttle and on the other side of the split screen you will see the thrusters under the arms of the VF-1 activate.

[Lightning]

I saw that as well. I think it's part of the underside...

[Zinjo]

Anime magic...

[Mephistopheles]

Anime magic...

Come to think of it, I haven't seen any artwork that shows them either.

[Vinnie]

Come to think of it, I haven't seen any artwork that shows them either.

Well, there's no thrusters there in fighter mode in any of the schematics I've seen. It leads me to believe this was like Max's nose lasers in Virgin Road, something the animators threw in without regard for mechanical design.

[bsu legato]

Well, there's no thrusters there in fighter mode in any of the schematics I've seen. It leads me to believe this was like Max's nose lasers in Virgin Road, something the animators threw in without regard for mechanical design.

The difference being that Virgin Road is an abomination by Anime Friend, for whom the term "line art" had little or no meaning, where Pineapple Salad seems to have been animated by Macross' a-list team (Tatsunuko? Studio Nue?).

[Mephistopheles]

Speaking of animation mistakes, my favorite one thus far is in the second episode where Hikaru's cockpit that is placed under Roy's VF-1S constantly alternates between the cockpit and Roy's gunpod. In one scene it focuses on Roy's gunpod shooting down a battlepod which we all know would be impossible because Hikaru's cockpit was there and not the gunpod. Speaking of that scene, aren't the head lasers supposed to be the primary gun in fighter mode?

[JB0]

Speaking of animation mistakes, my favorite one thus far is in the second episode where Hikaru's cockpit that is placed under Roy's VF-1S constantly alternates between the cockpit and Roy's gunpod. In one scene it focuses on Roy's gunpod shooting down a battlepod which we all know would be impossible because Hikaru's cockpit was there and not the gunpod. Speaking of that scene, aren't the head lasers supposed to be the primary gun in fighter mode?

It's worse than that... Roy's VF is not only alternating between gunpod and fighter nose, it's also alternating between VF-1A and VF-1S. Sometimes it's even got nothing under it BUT the VF-1A laser.

As for primary weapon... the lasers probably SHOULD be, owing to their limitless ammo capacity. But the gunpod seems to be the favored weapon.

Maybe cooling issues on the lasers restrict their use, the zentradi armor is more resistant to optics than projectiles, or just old habits die hard.

[UN Spacy]

[Mr March]

It's worse than that... Roy's VF is not only alternating between gunpod and fighter nose, it's also alternating between VF-1A and VF-1S. Sometimes it's even got nothing under it BUT the VF-1A laser.

As for primary weapon... the lasers probably SHOULD be, owing to their limitless ammo capacity. But the gunpod seems to be the favored weapon.

Maybe cooling issues on the lasers restrict their use, the zentradi armor is more resistant to optics than projectiles, or just old habits die hard.

The lasers would only be "limitless" in use so long as the VF-1's reactors are fed with sufficient reactant. And of course, no VF has an unlimited supply of reactant; they all have limited fuel supplies despite the enormous range they enjoy and the efficiency of OT generators. Overheating was mentioned, but only when the lasers are used in a continuous fire mode (when Max and Kakizaki try to cut their way out of the Zentradi ship). It's clear in most of the battle sequences that the lasers can fire in bursts again and again without problems. Also, the lasers are seen capable of dispatching Regults and other Zentradi mecha with one or two shots, so it seems very unlikely the lasers aren't the anti-mehca guns that they are depicted as. Still, it's logical to assume that even in burst mode, the lasers use up more than just a little power and hence, drain that power from the Valkyries generators, using up more fuel.

[JB0]

I doubt power drain was a primary concern, given they were usually seen thrusting constantly, which is gonna suck power too AND consume the much more limited reaction mass as well as fusion reactant.

[sketchley]

I think you're misunderstanding the power of thrust vs. the power of electricity. Both are power, but they are derived differently, and in a VF, the power of thrust would be easier to create.

Though, a jet turbine engine usually creates power by attaching a generator to the main shaft that the spinning blades rotate around (like a helicopter,) so there really isn't an excuse of a lack of power - as long as the engines are running.

One opinion that was raised elsewhere was that the laser weapons use capacitors (like the flash in a camera.) Though, if the laser is fired in limited bursts, again, this shouldn't be a limitation.

Thus, aside from the 'old habits die hard' arguement, it is entirely plausible that the bullets in the gun pod pack a lot more punch than any laser shot. In fact, it's arguable that beam weapons in Macross don't really reach comparible levels of damage until the VF-19/VF-22 - though those two VFs still rely on the gun pod as the main weapon. This can be explained away as the gun pod being a different, external system, that will not be inhibited if the VF takes damage that interrupts its systems - relyability = good on the battlefield. Of course there is also the VF-17 - but as that is a space fighter, and beam weapons having a greater accuracy over distance, as well as a faster travel time - it's being equipped with beam weapons can be easily explanned away due to the very nature of the VF-17.

I want to add this too: the VF-4 originally was armed with only beam weapons. However, it was also originally employed as a (space) interceptor - meaning that accuracy and fast weapon travel time over great distance is more important than the relatively weaker amount of damage delivered. This line of reasoning is supported, as in later variations - Macross Digital Missions VF-X - the VF-4 is given a gun pod for combat that is more, ahem, up close and personal.

[JB0]

I think you're misunderstanding the power of thrust vs. the power of electricity. Both are power, but they are derived differently, and in a VF, the power of thrust would be easier to create.

Easier yes, but I'm not sure it'd be more efficient.

And there's still a lot of energy being dumped to sling the ship around, and likely far more limited supply of reaction mass than fusion fuel.

Though, a jet turbine engine usually creates power by attaching a generator to the main shaft that the spinning blades rotate around (like a helicopter,) so there really isn't an excuse of a lack of power - as long as the engines are running.

That's not really a good plan for a space fighter, though. If you quit thrusting, you lose electricity.

And battroid mode will have dead turbines most of the time regardless.

Electrical generation should be isolated from the turbines for a VF, if for no other reason than battroid(the VF-1 seems to have been designed primarily with aerial combat in mind, so non-thrust in space may not have been a major consideration).

One opinion that was raised elsewhere was that the laser weapons use capacitors (like the flash in a camera.) Though, if the laser is fired in limited bursts, again, this shouldn't be a limitation.

That makes good sense, actually.

It gives the laser a reservoir to draw on during times of heavy electrical load, when it might demand more than the generator has to spare. Or just allows a laser that uses more power than the generator can supply under "average" conditions.

Thus, aside from the 'old habits die hard' arguement, it is entirely plausible that the bullets in the gun pod pack a lot more punch than any laser shot. In fact, it's arguable that beam weapons in Macross don't really reach comparible levels of damage until the VF-19/VF-22 - though those two VFs still rely on the gun pod as the main weapon.

I figured part of it would be that the zentradi seem to use primarily energy weapons.

That tells us what technology was like when their mechs were designed, and what they were designed to defend against. What armor they have should be better at deflecting energy attacks than projectiles if their weaponry is a good indication.

Of course, we also had centuries of experience with the traditional gun and weapons-grade lasers were close to cutting-edge, so the gunpod may just be more reliable.

This can be explained away as the gun pod being a different, external system, that will not be inhibited if the VF takes damage that interrupts its systems - relyability = good on the battlefield.

Unless the disrupted system is the hand or arm actuators.

Of course there is also the VF-17 - but as that is a space fighter, and beam weapons having a greater accuracy over distance, as well as a faster travel time - it's being equipped with beam weapons can be easily explanned away due to the very nature of the VF-17.

I want to add this too: the VF-4 originally was armed with only beam weapons. However, it was also originally employed as a (space) interceptor - meaning that accuracy and fast weapon travel time over great distance is more important than the relatively weaker amount of damage delivered. This line of reasoning is supported, as in later variations - Macross Digital Missions VF-X - the VF-4 is given a gun pod for combat that is more, ahem, up close and personal.

There's also the VF-1 strike pack, to add to the list.

Adds a bigger energy weapon than the head turret, and is most definitely NOT intended for atmospheric combat.

That's another good point, though. Projectiles are easier to use in an atmosphere.

[Mephistopheles]

That's another good point, though. Projectiles are easier to use in an atmosphere.

Aside from extreme ranges a projectile fired from a gun would have infinite range and be far more accurate in space than it would on earth. The projectile wouldn't lose it's momenteum nor would it travel in an arc. Projectiles and even missiles would be better in space than they would be in an atmosphere.

Lasers would have a speed and accuracy advantage in space over a projectile though. Another advantage of lasers in space is that it would be invisible. You wouldn't be able to see where the shots are coming from. You wouldn't feel the impact of the laser either. You'd just suddenly notice that your hull was breached. With bullets there would be a clang that would resonate throughout your ship. So with a laser you could be under attack and not even know it until it is far too late.

The coldness of space would also help prevent any type of weapon from overheating.

[JB0]

The coldness of space would also help prevent any type of weapon from overheating.

Common misconception. Space is a pain in the ass to keep things cool in.

There's nothing for conduction or convection cooling to work with, so the only way to cool off is radiation.

And that works both ways. The sun carries a lot more energy when it isn't filtered by several miles of air first.

[sketchley]

Depending on the nature of the beam weapon, there may be some kind of explosive reaction at the point of impact. At the very least, it is the sudden expansion due to the intense heat applied.

Physics aside (as anime physics is the most applicable kind here,) not all the energy weapons in Macross are lasers or laser based. A lot are called 'beam' weapons. Due to both anime physics and their mysterious beam nature, they provide some pretty noticeable explosive effects, and are visible as they take on properties normally associated with projectile weapons (slow moving, travel in arcs, etc..)

I am by no means attempting to take away from your wonderfully accurate arguement, Mephistopheles. I merely wish to point out the variety of energy-based weapons in Macross.

And kudos to JBO for correcting the cooling issue. Outside of a vehicle space is cold. Inside (and on the surface, if the surface is in the light of the star,) it can be anything but cool. As we are discussing an internally mounted laser generator, I see the cooling issue as a problem with moving a volume of heat from the generator to the heat sinks. This problem is equally applicable in space as it is in an atmosphere.

[Mr March]

I doubt power drain was a primary concern, given they were usually seen thrusting constantly, which is gonna suck power too AND consume the much more limited reaction mass as well as fusion reactant.

No it isn't, but my point was that the lasers would have limitations besides overheating and would be far from limitless in use. Whether significant or just notable, the power used by such high enegery weapons as the lasers on a Valkyrie would be a concern given constant use, despite being more efficient and featuring more "ammunition" than the gunpod. Hence, the inclusion of missiles and gundpods on a Valkyrie, obviously meant to complement both combat function and limitations of supply. The versatility of the Valkyrie over most of the Zentradi Regults/Fighters was one of the reason's for the success of mecha in combat.

[Mephistopheles]

Common misconception. Space is a pain in the ass to keep things cool in.

There's nothing for conduction or convection cooling to work with, so the only way to cool off is radiation.

And that works both ways. The sun carries a lot more energy when it isn't filtered by several miles of air first.

I actually thought of that. In order to cool something off you'd have to transfer the heat from it to something else only there isn't anything in space. However I do remember some educational videos mentioning things instantly freezing.

[Mephistopheles]

Depending on the nature of the beam weapon, there may be some kind of explosive reaction at the point of impact. At the very least, it is the sudden expansion due to the intense heat applied.

Physics aside (as anime physics is the most applicable kind here,) not all the energy weapons in Macross are lasers or laser based. A lot are called 'beam' weapons. Due to both anime physics and their mysterious beam nature, they provide some pretty noticeable explosive effects, and are visible as they take on properties normally associated with projectile weapons (slow moving, travel in arcs, etc..)

I am by no means attempting to take away from your wonderfully accurate arguement, Mephistopheles. I merely wish to point out the variety of energy-based weapons in Macross.

And kudos to JBO for correcting the cooling issue. Outside of a vehicle space is cold. Inside (and on the surface, if the surface is in the light of the star,) it can be anything but cool. As we are discussing an internally mounted laser generator, I see the cooling issue as a problem with moving a volume of heat from the generator to the heat sinks. This problem is equally applicable in space as it is in an atmosphere.

I always attributed those aspects to entertainment. Must like how missiles and fighter planes can fly in space exactly as they would in the atmosphere — although this was not present in DYRL — and how things still make audible noises in space. It wouldn't look as exciting when you didn't see the beams that were being fired or if you couldn't hear the noises things were making. It'd be about as exciting as 2001: A Space Odessey. I also attributed the explosions to two things: the same reason Hollywood blows up anything that has been shot or wrecked and to make it easier to animate. Given that the head lasers just seem to cut through metal most likely when an enemy pod was hit it'd just penetrate the hull and kill the pilot thus leaving the remains to float around. Well, if they had done it the way it should have happened then you'd have to animate all this stuff floating around or crashing into things in the background thus it is far easier just to make it explode from an animation perspective.

The beam weapon's emissions being visible doesn't really bother me as I am willing to believe that it is some other type of energy discharge.

Edited September 28, 2006 by Mephistopheles

[Lightning]

so....still no explanation as to where these babies hide in fighter mode, eh? (well, since that was the topic question being asked, thanks for the screencap UN Spacy)

[Phren]

so....still no explanation as to where these babies hide in fighter mode, eh? (well, since that was the topic question being asked, thanks for the screencap UN Spacy)

Looks greatly like those armpit covers we get in the Yamato 1/48 GBP opening up, actually..

as to where they go/ where they come from, I think it just doesn;t exist in fighter mode, or was naver though of

Edited September 29, 2006 by Phren

[KingNor]

I say they are something max added, they are small folding thrusters maybe even single shot boosters that lay flat on the fuleselage when in fighter mode.

ret-con complete.

[Zentrandude]

Depending on the nature of the beam weapon, there may be some kind of explosive reaction at the point of impact. At the very least, it is the sudden expansion due to the intense heat applied.

Physics aside (as anime physics is the most applicable kind here,) not all the energy weapons in Macross are lasers or laser based. A lot are called 'beam' weapons. Due to both anime physics and their mysterious beam nature, they provide some pretty noticeable explosive effects, and are visible as they take on properties normally associated with projectile weapons (slow moving, travel in arcs, etc..)

I am by no means attempting to take away from your wonderfully accurate arguement, Mephistopheles. I merely wish to point out the variety of energy-based weapons in Macross.

And kudos to JBO for correcting the cooling issue. Outside of a vehicle space is cold. Inside (and on the surface, if the surface is in the light of the star,) it can be anything but cool. As we are discussing an internally mounted laser generator, I see the cooling issue as a problem with moving a volume of heat from the generator to the heat sinks. This problem is equally applicable in space as it is in an atmosphere.

Heat pipes like in laptops can work to move the heat to the heat dispersal device but it won't be good in combat, added overall empty weight so less ordance/fuel plus get damage easily and won't be as effective or none at all.

about the explosion effects I will use the cheap excuse, they have a layer of gas in the skin so they blow up properly (blame the macross HMO (also introduced helmets with giant blind spot above your eyes) )

[Mephistopheles]

Heat pipes like in laptops can work to move the heat to the heat dispersal device but it won't be good in combat, added overall empty weight so less ordance/fuel plus get damage easily and won't be as effective or none at all.

about the explosion effects I will use the cheap excuse, they have a layer of gas in the skin so they blow up properly (blame the macross HMO (also introduced helmets with giant blind spot above your eyes) )

Yeah, although in Macross Zero you find out that it is where the eye tracking lasters are housed. Then again, the Macross Zero helmet is more advanced than any of the helmets used later on in the timeline.

[JB0]

Yeah, although in Macross Zero you find out that it is where the eye tracking lasters are housed. Then again, the Macross Zero helmet is more advanced than any of the helmets used later on in the timeline.

A. YF-21 helmet's more advanced than the Zero helmet.

B. We don't KNOW that the Zero helmet is more advanced.

Just because there wasn't any eye-candy showing off of the eye-tracker doesn't mean it wasn't in use on other VFs. I took that scene to be a time-out to explain the long-running "How do they target missiles that fast" question.

[Mephistopheles]

A. YF-21 helmet's more advanced than the Zero helmet.

B. We don't KNOW that the Zero helmet is more advanced.

Just because there wasn't any eye-candy showing off of the eye-tracker doesn't mean it wasn't in use on other VFs. I took that scene to be a time-out to explain the long-running "How do they target missiles that fast" question.

I always assumed that the FCS targetted the missiles. The Zero helmet fit better and had more features than any other helmet aside from the YF-21. The SDF-M helmet was purely a visor and it continued being so in M+ and M7.

[sketchley]

In M+ you see some of the HUD info (namely targeting retricle) dispayed inside Isamu's helmet. At this point (and presumably in M7 too, as the series takes place later in the timeline,) the visor is doing more than providing shade...

[Mephistopheles]

In M+ you see some of the HUD info (namely targeting retricle) dispayed inside Isamu's helmet. At this point (and presumably in M7 too, as the series takes place later in the timeline,) the visor is doing more than providing shade...

I believe that was merely the reflection off his HUD.

[Scream Man]

yeah i have to agree, i thought it was a reflection.

[sketchley]

I remember it appearing only on his helmet, and not on the HUD (as it is the virtual cockpit, the entire thing is a HUD.) Funny thing is that it is viewable in multiple camera angles and behaves in ways that reflections do not.

[emajnthis]

I remember it appearing only on his helmet, and not on the HUD (as it is the virtual cockpit, the entire thing is a HUD.) Funny thing is that it is viewable in multiple camera angles and behaves in ways that reflections do not.

I remember the target recepticles on his visor also and it definitely did not behave like a reflection.

[Mephistopheles]

I remember the target recepticles on his visor also and it definitely did not behave like a reflection.

Reflections are hard things to animate. Also the reticule was so big it would have been no use to him. It was also off center from his face and it never showed up ever again.

[sketchley]

How many times did he fire that big multi-warhead missile? Just that once...

Also, in all entertainment productions, the producers must make the choice between reality, and ease of understanding by the viewer. To quote the production staff of Star Wars (might be George Lucas) "if the viewer cannot understand it's purpose within 5 seconds, then it's a bad design." Yes, big, blocky reticule isn't realistic, but it's easy to spot, and easy to understand.

[Valkyrie addict]

maybe, since in Macross Zero the whole visor HUD stuff is new cutting edge technology, they sorta needed to show it off explain it how's all done and happens, I mean, we get a nifty sequence of how the Valkyrie goes from fighter to battroid in a detailed matter, never in Macross TV series, Macross Plus or 7 we get shown how it all happens, we just know it do it

perhaps since in Macross TV and beyond is common tech, it's assumed to be there and doesn't need to be shown off

Edited October 20, 2006 by Valkyrie addict