1/60 YF-21/VF-11/VF-0D etc valk speculation thread

[Nani?!]

I figured since the yf-19 2nd coming board was being swamped with yf-21 speculation, might as well create a new topic for it.

[kensei]

Bigger, more durable copycat of the D'Stance. Nuff said.

Seriously though. From lessons learnt, joint and wing design need improvement for the 1/60 form the 1/72. Also, more of an intricate design with the weapons and FAST Packs.

Also they could try and do a MP Starscream with the 1/60, make the chest openable to reveal a micromissile rack...

Edited August 23, 2006 by kensei

[Nani?!]

actually come to think of it...

I guess this topic will be better if it's call the "new 1/60 valk speculation" thread to make it more general... I'm sure more people want to talk about the vf-11b, the sv-51, and the vf-0d.

I guess this can be a general thread where we do all the rumoring, speculation, hopes and desires and stuff until official word comes out.

If a moderator agrees, by all means change the topic title.

[Dante74]

Also they could try and do a MP Starscream with the 1/60, make the chest openable to reveal a micromissile rack...

427665[/snapback]

That's a good idea right there.

Don't just make the canopy able to open. Make maintenance panels that are able to open and show some internal detail. That way we can display it in a 'parked in the hangar' sort of diorama.

[kensei]

I'm afraid that it is plagarising ideas.

But who cares?

Also they'd better make the wings posable for the high manoevrability mode. Come to think of it, the YF-19 better be able to get into a hyperdive configuration too...or else....

[scand]

Instead of wings that fold up under. How bout wings that sweep in and out. Remember the scene before Guld sends Isamu nose diving into the sand. The wings sweep out in battloid mode. Though that does seem hard to accomplish with perfect transformation in mind.

[rnurmin]

If it looks like the D-Stand version, I am all up for it

I haven't seen any version that is proportionally better than D-Stance yet

[GobotFool]

make the wings out of rubber so it can do that funky morphing stuff. JK

[David Hingtgen]

scand--they were just unfolding, going half-way to GERWALK mode. The old one could that if you wanted--you just had to mostly transform it to fighter, then transform it back without folding the wings.

Nani--want me to rename this to the "Future 1/60 valk speculation" thread or something? I think it's a good idea, as opposed to a bunch of dedicated threads for each valk. (I want a VF-14 now, having just looked at it again)

[Dobber]

From what I can remember about the VF-11's transformation, it should be fairly easy to make a new 1/60 one that would be totally acurate!! I love the VF-11!!! I REALLY hope they make a new one!

Chris

[David Hingtgen]

Just gotta make the VF-11's fins fold the other way (the way Kawamori designed, not the way the Yamato ones did) and you can have way bigger fins. Combined with folding gear to make the leg bigger inside, and you can easily fix the earlier VF-11's main flaw--the itty-bitty tailfins.

That's the main reason I started talking about gear in the YF-19 thread---the original VF-11 toy's fin size was determined by two things:

1. The space the gear inside took up--since the gear well and retracted fins occupied the same area inside the leg. Remember that lowering the gear actually caused the fins to pop open.

2. The fact that Yamato had them fold the wrong way.

Now, if they fold them the right way, you can double their size easily. But even twice as big isn't as big as they should be. But if you can get folding gear (doesn't need to compress at all, wouldn't help--simply need a 90 degree twist) then you can make a more shallow well, and have more room for the fin.

Though I have been thinking--due to the VF-11's fins being canted out, they also retract angled in---so you may actually want like a 45-degree twist, or even no twise, to get the top of the wheel as far over to one side as possible, to allow the angled fin to fit. (Yes, I've put a lot of thought into how to fit big fins into a VF-11's legs--the most important thing is to fold them Kawamori's way---which is the way I figured out myself years ago, but then discovered recently that's how Kawamori originally drew it--Yamato was just wrong all these years)

The YF-19's main gear poses no problems--the gear's small, the legs are huge. The nose-gear however---well, that's more a function of simply having the there in the first place. The only way to get a small belly is to eliminate the gear entirely, as even a small well gets in the way of the transformation due to the "spine" of battroid mode splitting. (or use the ultra-sucky "wheels on the door" that the original Yamato used)

[Sumdumgai]

I was checking out some old pics of the 1/72 VF-11 prototype that Graham had posted way back when, and noticed that there were no shoulder bars in battroid mode.

If I had to make a list of stuff I'd like to see on a 1/60 or 1/48 VF-11 it would be this:

-total resculpt with proper proportions

-larger tailfins with correct folding (as David has pointed out)

-folding landing gear (as David suggested)

-internally stored heatshield somehow (from the design works, it looks like you could set up the cockpit to be able to be pushed inwards and slide out the top and bottom heatshield partsto cover the cockpit)

-elimination of the shoulder bars

-properly sculpted and proportioned fast packs with replaceable parts to make it the 11B or 11C type

-11B gunpod and 11C gunpod included with the valkyrie

-better way to attach the gunpod

-a proper shield that actually stays on in fighter mode (it's infuriating on my poor VF-11, shield can't stay on)

-Macross Plus pilot figure and VFX2 pilot figure

-eventual full armor It was in VFX2.

And if they did a VF-14 I would be sorely tempted to pick it up. Although I would much rather have a VF-4.

[David Hingtgen]

I'm thinking a VF-11C would be an all new release, since the standard B and C schemes are very different. And there's no way they'd pass up the opportunity for another repaint. But it's such an obvious choice---only need a new gunpod, and new nozzles on the booster packs, to make a C from a B. And a D isn't much more work--take the C and add a new head, and new canopy/nose (which with the -11's transformation won't affect anything at all--you could put on Mylene's MAXL front end and it wouldn't affect anything).

The issue is the M7 license. Graham's said for years Yamato won't get it, and that creates a problem, as all the good schemes and variants of the -11 and -22 are M7 exclusives. I think the VF-11C has only appeared in M7, with M+ and M3 having the B. I plan on replaying M3 soon to check exactly which variants/schemes appear in it.

Only hope is M3--I don't know if Yamato has that license or would be willing to get it, but that would give Max and Milia schemes for almost every valk--including Milia's VF-11 that was also seen in M7. The -11 looks especially good in M&M colors. If only M3 had included the -22 instead of just the -21. (the -19 and -21 were M+ colors only, the only valks in the game not in M&M colors)

For those that haven't seen it, here's Milia's VF-11 from M3. I think it was painted identically (or very close) in M7, but I don't have any screen caps of it. Either way, I think it's among he best of the Milia-painted valks. (With -17 and -4 being the worst)

Edited August 24, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Scream Man]

Well, i guess on the 21 id want a fair bit of improvment.

id want to be able to handle and pose the figure without it feeling so fragile. better transform, or somehow made so that the legs can be stored in somethign less than 20 minutes of fiddling. hands that can hld the guns without having to be replaced. a more solid feel to the battloid mode.

U know the more I think about it, the more I realise the 21 was really just let down by its alt modes. I didnt mind the fighter, but then I am not as concerned with lineart accuracy as a lot of u guys. i just want a nice LOOKING fighter. If it looks sleek and cool; Im in. It was the way u couldnt really do anything cool with the battloid mode that anoyed me. the legs flopped everywhere at the hips, the back basically blocked most arm movement....in tryuth its my least favourite of the transforming valks, simply because it just always felt a bit off. Ill by a 1/60 YF-21, but I suspect no matter how much improves, it will never be my favourite.

As for the 11B, I love the 1/72 scale toy, but some fixes would be great.

The shoulders need to be made more solid somehow, with a less scary bar system designed. the pieces that sit just inside the shoulders and cover the swingbar from view need to be more securely able to lock into place. the tailfin need to be longer. The hips need to be able to sit more flush in fighter mode. And Gerwalk as a whole needs to be done just BETTER so that the wings have some more support.

The heatshield....i dont seehow it can be a part of the fighter and still work. I dont know how it goes in the lineart or the "actual" plane, but i suspect the cockpit recesses and it fold up from the front and back, somewhat like a 1D. i think the engineering invovled in that would be more complicated than is necessary, so Id be ok with some kind of snap on heat shield in this case.

Come to thinjk of it, does the viewport on the 21 close up in battloid?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I wonder though how big the vf11 would actually be?

Would you prefer an exact 1/60 scale or just have the fighter be large enough for the sake of durability and fitting more details? (cheating and making the 11 larger than it should be) Wasn't the 1/72 vf11 not exactly to scale?

It was the way u couldnt really do anything cool with the battloid mode that anoyed me. the legs flopped everywhere at the hips, the back basically blocked most arm movement....in tryuth its my least favourite of the transforming valks, simply because it just always felt a bit off.

I think it looks cool in lineart though. If they can make it look close to the Dstance I will pee my pants. That looks like the thing to beat. If people offer suggestions early maybe it won't be too late to put the things people want in the toy..

Edited August 24, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[David Hingtgen]

It was more like 1/68 I think (maybe 1/64) due to it being too fragile in 1/72--shoulder bars I think. The VF-11 should be a bit smaller than the -19. Definitely larger than the VF-1. It's slightly bigger than a VF-4.

[Scream Man]

Id want it 1/60. id like em all in the same scale.

[The6ftTallAZN]

I'm thinking a VF-11C would be an all new release, since the standard B and C schemes are very different. And there's no way they'd pass up the opportunity for another repaint.   But it's such an obvious choice---only need a new gunpod, and new nozzles on the booster packs, to make a C from a B.  And a D isn't much more work--take the C and add a new head, and new canopy/nose (which with the -11's transformation won't affect anything at all--you could put on Mylene's MAXL front end and it wouldn't affect anything).

The issue is the M7 license.  Graham's said for years Yamato won't get it, and that creates a problem, as all the good schemes and variants of the -11 and -22 are M7 exclusives.  I think the VF-11C has only appeared in M7, with M+ and M3 having the B.  I plan on replaying M3 soon to check exactly which variants/schemes appear in it. 

Only hope is M3--I don't know if Yamato has that license or would be willing to get it, but that would give Max and Milia schemes for almost every valk--including Milia's VF-11 that was also seen in M7.  The -11 looks especially good in M&M colors.  If only M3 had included the -22 instead of just the -21.  (the -19 and -21 were M+ colors only, the only valks in the game not in M&M colors)

For those that haven't seen it, here's Milia's VF-11 from M3. I think it was painted identically (or very close) in M7, but I don't have any screen caps of it.  Either way, I think it's among he best of the Milia-painted valks.  (With -17 and -4 being the worst)

427812[/snapback]

uh what's the difference between the VF-11B and C, and would someone be able to post some pics to show the differences?

[David Hingtgen]

The valk itself is identical. As I said earlier, it's the gunpod (C's have no bayonet, that's the most obvious difference--it's overall smoother and sleeker than the B's) and the nozzles of the booster packs that are different--which is why it'd be so easy for Yamato to do both types. A VF-11B's booster pack has "traditional" round rocket engine nozzles--like the VF-1's, only smaller, with a small fin mounted between them. A VF-11C's booster pack nozzles are square with no fin. Also the C's booster packs have 2 fewer missile launcher ports.

Color-wise, the standard VF-11B is medium-dark grey with orange stripes like in M+. Your standard VF-11C is white with black stripes in M7. Though if a new VF-11B comes out, I'll wait for a VFX repaint--I've already owned two in M+ colors, and the VFX scheme is very nice. (White with black and yellow stripes--very 1960's US Navy fighter-esque)

If you really want, I could scan some lineart to actually show the gunpod and booster pack difference.

Edited August 24, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Nani?!]

Nani--want me to rename this to the "Future 1/60 valk speculation" thread or something?  I think it's a good idea, as opposed to a bunch of dedicated threads for each valk.  (I want a VF-14 now, having just looked at it again)

427786[/snapback]

yea sure~

[Scream Man]

Color-wise, the standard VF-11B is medium-dark grey with orange stripes like in M+.  Your standard VF-11C is white with black stripes in M7.  Though if a new VF-11B comes out, I'll wait for a VFX repaint--I've already owned two in M+ colors, and the VFX scheme is very nice.  (White with black and yellow stripes--very 1960's US Navy fighter-esque) 

427878[/snapback]

is that Skull Sqadron schemed? the white, black yellow one?

i think id prefer the B. While the 11's head is a little dull, I LOVE the Bayonet on the Gunpod. Its one of my favourite features on a VF type plane.

[Vermillion21]

i think id prefer the B. While the 11's head is a little dull, I LOVE the Bayonet on the Gunpod. Its one of my favourite features on a VF type plane.

Ditto. I hope Yamato makes a 1/60 VF-11 first, before the VF-21.

[David Hingtgen]

The VFX white/black/yellow one is not Skull squadron, though it does strike me as closely following the markings of VF-84's F-8's, which was the Vagabond squadron, that would soon become the VF-84 Jolly Rogers which is what Skull Squadron's markings are. So sorta, in a way, yes, but not really.

Hard to see, only pic I know of, but there's yellow and black stripes at the tips of the wings and tailfins, a matching fuselage stripe, and a tan nosecone. It is close to most any 1960's Navy scheme that had yellow, but especially close to the Vagabond's F-8's. It could easily be seen as "early Jolly Rogers".

And here's the real scheme I think they based it on:

Edited August 24, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[kensei]

(I want a VF-14 now, having just looked at it again)

427786[/snapback]

Which 14 do you want? It'd better be the more clean looking and aethetically pleasing one. I think the one that feat. in M3 was the best version of the Vampire.

http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/m3/vf-14.htm

Though I have been thinking--due to the VF-11's fins being canted out, they also retract angled in---so you may actually want like a 45-degree twist, or even no twise, to get the top of the wheel as far over to one side as possible, to allow the angled fin to fit.

427792[/snapback]

I like that idea too, just like the Studio halfeye version. But consequently it had no landing gear.

I'm thinking a VF-11C would be an all new release, since the standard B and C schemes are very different. And there's no way they'd pass up the opportunity for another repaint.   But it's such an obvious choice---only need a new gunpod, and new nozzles on the booster packs, to make a C from a B.  And a D isn't much more work--take the C and add a new head, and new canopy/nose (which with the -11's transformation won't affect anything at all--you could put on Mylene's MAXL front end and it wouldn't affect anything).

427812[/snapback]

I thought it had a longer laser barrel as well?

  The heatshield....i dont seehow it can be a part of the fighter and still work. I dont know how it goes in the lineart or the "actual" plane, but i suspect the cockpit recesses and it fold up from the front and back, somewhat like a 1D. i think the engineering invovled in that would be more complicated than is necessary, so Id be ok with some kind of snap on heat shield in this case.

427835[/snapback]

Actually Studio half-eye worked out a way. The heatshield attaches to a hinge which brings the heatshield back from the main body. It's really cool.. Doesn't work like the movie, but no parts removed!

It was more like 1/68 I think (maybe 1/64) due to it being too fragile in 1/72--shoulder bars I think.  The VF-11 should be a bit smaller than the -19.  Definitely larger than the VF-1.  It's slightly bigger than a VF-4.

427845[/snapback]

I thought they were very close in size together (the 1 and 11). 14.23 and 15.21 metres respectively. This means if they bring it out in 1/60 scale, it will fall short of even the 1/48 VF-1. I say bring it up to 1/48.

[David Hingtgen]

I think the 11 battroid ends up a bit taller due to transformation. IIRC when I had my VF-11 it was larger than my 1/60, even at 1/64 or 1/68 scale or whatever. I'm going to get out my Macross Designs Works and M7 TIAS books tonight and go over the VF-11B, C, and D inch-by-inch tonight and really check for differences. Though I think the Jamming Birds VF-11D is considered modified kinda like Basara's, and might be more than just a standard D with new FAST packs. (AFAIK no "standard" VF-11D has been seen) Though the D's head sure seems "UN Spacy" and not "custom".

As for the VF-14: AFAIK the only version is the M3 one, "retroactively" designed from the FZ-109 in M7. I do like the FZ-109A though, but it uses way more anime magic. The FZ-109F/G is just ugly, and uses more anime magic than the YF-19 and 21 combined. I just played M3 tonight to check some stuff---it's interesting, as they don't "cheat" at all on any of the transformations---though they don't have to worry about hinges nor pixel-thin attachment points, and parts can magically "slide" through each other--they don't allow any shape/size changing---no shortening nosecones or magically rounding-out legs. You get a pretty skinny YF-19 battroid, but you know it WORKS. And the VF-14 stays quite proportionate, which gives me hope for it existing as a toy some day. They transform at warp speed though, the VF-14 and 9 are just insane to watch.

Edited August 24, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Sumdumgai]

Well you get to breifly see VF-14s in M7 in one of the Macross 7 Plus episodes, plus they transform. But as it has been pointed out, not likely that Yamato will pick up a M7 license. I prefer the VF-14 over the FZ-109s... Something about it staying sleek, thin, and all black.

I think that Yamato could replicate how the VF-11 has its heatshield stored as long as they make it possible to push in the cockpit to make room for the heatshield to slide out in two parts like in the Macross Design Works.

Not a valk, but I'd like a non-scale Macross 13 if a M7 license ins't possible. I know everyone would want a SDF Macross first, but I want a transformable Macross 13.

[David Hingtgen]

VF-14 in M7+? Will have to check sometime, I don't remember that all all. (The only M7+ ep I really remember is the "Gamlin's training" one, as it had Milia's VF-11)

Checked the VF-11 tonight against my books:

VF-11B and C themselves are physically identical. Only differences are the FAST pack booster nozzles, number of forward missile launchers on boosters, and gunpod. The housing for the booster nozzles themselves are the same--square and round nozzles fit in the same basic booster design. Still don't know what the "thing" stuck between the nozzles on the B-version is. Thought it was a stabilizer fin, but rear-view drawings show it to be rather thick.

A C's gunpod looks a lot like a B's with all the extra "stuff" stripped off it. It's quite possible there's really only one type of gunpod, and the VF-11B's we saw in M+ simply had extra attachments (like a bayonet) added on to theirs for that particular mission, as they knew they'd be hunting down rogue Zentradi armor suits. Anyone have the M+ TIAS? Does it show the VF-11B's gunpod in detail? The Design Works book doesn't have the B's gunpod at all, and the C's is only in the M7 TIAS book (which I have).

VF-11D: Asides from the obivous two-seat cockpit (which is like the VF-0D in that it is extended *both* front and aft compared to the single-seater---the pilot sits further forward in the two seater than he does in the single-seater), it has larger canards (easy to change, even the original toy had them pop right off if you wanted), and a set of vernier thrusters right behind the cockpit, much like a VF-19F/S. Also, due to the cockpit/vernier, the VF-11D has a sort of "collar" around the front of the neck due to the slightly longer forward fuselage by the hinge. Again, all this could still fit a "generic" VF-11B/C body, as the entire front end of the VF-11 simply pivots down 180 degrees on a simple hinge to transform. They could just make a new "front end" to get a D. It'd be more involved than just a new head-sculpt, but it'd be equally "not affecting the transformation or fit of other parts". Also the D's head is different--has a visor instead of an "eye" among other things (I like the D's much more than the B/C).

The Jamming Birds' VF-11D's have new boosters and leg armor, but I'll assume that's just them, not standard VF-11D's. The boosters are clearly the "sound" boosters, and appear to be the same as used on the VF-22S as such. The new leg armor--no idea why it's there, other "sound" armor packs don't have leg armor at all--Basara and Mylene never did, and it doesn't open up with speakers or anything--really have no idea why the Jamming Birds would have new leg armor, but they do.

Heat shield---well, it'd be really hard to do the SHE version and have any nose gear at all--even a removable one. The heatshield is basically where the nose gear should be, and makes the entire forward half of the belly a mess of sliding hinges.

Edited August 24, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[kensei]

As for the VF-14:  AFAIK the only version is the M3 one, "retroactively" designed from the FZ-109 in M7.  I do like the FZ-109A though, but it uses way more anime magic.  The FZ-109F/G is just ugly, and uses more anime magic than the YF-19 and 21 combined.  I just played M3 tonight to check some stuff---it's interesting, as they don't "cheat" at all on any of the transformations---though they don't have to worry about hinges nor pixel-thin attachment points, and parts can magically "slide" through each other--they don't allow any shape/size changing---no shortening nosecones or magically rounding-out legs.  You get a pretty skinny YF-19 battroid, but you know it WORKS.  And the VF-14 stays quite proportionate, which gives me hope for it existing as a toy some day.  They transform at warp speed though, the VF-14 and 9 are just insane to watch.

427958[/snapback]

I love both.

My mistake anyway about the VF-14. I was mistaking it for it's cousin, the VA-14, which I think it ugly.

If Yamato made a cutlass it would just make my day. That's my other favourite FSW VF.

Wait....it's the only other FSW VF.

[Dobber]

From what I've seen the SHE kit is really nice except for one thing, I HATE the nose on it! It's too duck bill-ish, instead of being more like a birds beek. I like how the original Yamato's nose looked or the lineart, much more angular....better IMHO.

Chris

P.S. Glad to see so many others wanting an 11 first also!!!

[Sumdumgai]

The Macross 7 Plus with the VF-14s is at the end of episode 32.

Unfortunately I've only got the Design Works book and Macross Plus Movie Edition book for M+ valkyrie designs. No VF-11B gunpod in the movie edition book for lineart.

The VF-4 boggles my mind on how to make a transforming toy that you don't have to dismantle and put back together. Well Fighter to gerwalk I see, but going to battroid... The part that stumps me is how the leg region slides along the underside to position itself to just behind and underneath the cockpit. I speculate on different ways, but the transformation depicted in the Design Works doesn't show step by step, it's just one complicated picture.

But yeah, I want a VF-11 before a YF-21. Hell, Yamato should do a low vis V1 or real low vis scheme for every valk they release. I like low vis.

[Knight26]

Here is how to make a perfect variable VF-4: http://www.macrossworld.com/mwf/index.php?showtopic=19974

[The6ftTallAZN]

The valk itself is identical. As I said earlier, it's the gunpod (C's have no bayonet, that's the most obvious difference--it's overall smoother and sleeker than the B's) and the nozzles of the booster packs that are different--which is why it'd be so easy for Yamato to do both types. A VF-11B's booster pack has "traditional" round rocket engine nozzles--like the VF-1's, only smaller, with a small fin mounted between them. A VF-11C's booster pack nozzles are square with no fin. Also the C's booster packs have 2 fewer missile launcher ports.

Color-wise, the standard VF-11B is medium-dark grey with orange stripes like in M+. Your standard VF-11C is white with black stripes in M7. Though if a new VF-11B comes out, I'll wait for a VFX repaint--I've already owned two in M+ colors, and the VFX scheme is very nice. (White with black and yellow stripes--very 1960's US Navy fighter-esque)

If you really want, I could scan some lineart to actually show the gunpod and booster pack difference.

Yeah I would like to see the differences between the gunpods and boosters

[CdnShockwave]

I don't really care about the VF-21. It never really wow'd me. As for a YF-0D, hell yeah I'd buy one. And a VF-11, I'd buy two!

[Onimusha-shin]

i guess the VF-11 is more popular because it'll be easier to redesign and put out than the 21? maybe if Yamato were good, they'd have the money from VF-11's sales to fund the improvement of the 21's design.

^^

[Uxi]

I love the 21/22S. The VF-X license has been used before, so it should be again. Light blue 22S... mmm.... makes me happy to think of it. That also gives us a chance at the VF-17, which also makes me happy!

As far as the 21, the 1/60FP impved most of my gripes... the larger size should take care of the rest. Even with that design, they still have room for improvement but mostly in a refining rather than revolutionary way. For example, there is plenty of room in the large underbody panels to pull them tighter in. Maybe a slight redesign of the arms. Put telescoping rear landing gear in and they extend through the doors in the FP (which themselves can be made much thinner already. I'd even say to mold in flattened gunpods, if not redesign the gunpods themselves (maybe 'cheat' and make the gunpod stock area itself compress from the top down, kinda like a VF1 foot.). A more normal head and avoid the skeletor hands.

I would love if there was some way to do morphing wings but can't see that happening anyway but bad.

I would definitely buy multiple VF-11's, especially if they included the B&C nozzels.