Food Aboard The Macross

[justvinnie]

So when the Macross folded out to Pluto's orbital and found itself with almost 50,000 civilians, food would be a priority. We know that the Macross was about to launch so it is probably fully stocked. I'm going to presume that the Daedalus and Prometheus were both fully stocked since they are at dock. Is that still enough to support that large of a population for several months?

Assuming that they decide to grow their own food right away since they obviously had available room (hydro or aeroponics whatnots), it would still take a few months till harvest. On top of that were the hell did Hayao get his beef steak? Surely there are no cows on board. If it was frozen as part of the food stock, man, it must have costed a fortune. So how did that steakhouse stay in business? Meat can't be grown like veggies.

vinnie

[Sumdumgai]

The military secretly brought aboard some dead Zentraedi after the battles and packaged the meat and distributed it to the public.

I bet that they did have to recycle all waste though.

[gerwalk25]

Since everything was frozen and people survived in the island shelter (they must have had rations there too) after the warp to Pluto that's where they must have savalged what was edible.

[Mr March]

Didn't they mention rations earlier on? I thought they did.

Also, the SDF-1's initial fold took an entire section of the city with it, along with shelters. The various buildings no doubt had food and so did the shelters.

Lastly, did they not resupply at Mars base? Obviously perishables would not remain, but non-perishables would still be plentiful. The series showed the Macross loading truckloads of supplies before the Zentradi trap was finally sprung.

Just a few more factors to consider.

[JB0]

You're right, they DID mention that food was being rationed very early on.

While this was never mentioned again after the Lynns re-opened the restraunt, it was likely sustained, and restraunts were accepting ration vouchers as part of their payment.

The justification used for reopening Macross City's restraunts and grocery stores was probably something to the effect that it would be an easier way for the military to distribute rations if they could send them to businesses instead of directly to individuals. Less deliveries that way.

The military secretly brought aboard some dead Zentraedi after the battles and packaged the meat and distributed it to the public.

*insert obligatory Soylent Green reference here*

The presence of meat IS a problem, seriously. They should've run out fairly fast, as it's perishable and not growable with their supplies(I'd actually be surprised if they had viable seeds, but...).

...

Maybe it was a tofu steak?

[Mowe]

Forget about the food, recycling water would be their no.1 priority so they won't be drinking their own wee-wee...actually, come to think of it...didn't they brought half of the lake with them....

[Sdf-1]

Forget about the food, recycling water would be their no.1 priority so they won't be drinking their own wee-wee...

426015[/snapback]

That can be purified though, and actually they do that on space station/flights. I guess they were testing that. Saw it on tv once. Haven't tried myself.

[azrael]

Assuming that they decide to grow their own food right away since they obviously had available room (hydro or aeroponics whatnots), it would still take a few months till harvest. On top of that were the hell did Hayao get his beef steak? Surely there are no cows on board. If it was frozen as part of the food stock, man, it must have costed a fortune. So how did that steakhouse stay in business? Meat can't be grown like veggies.

425991[/snapback]

Didn't he eat that steak when they got to Earth? Wasn't it in the same episode where he died?

[Keith]

Chances are they already developed contingencies for such problems, as the ship was meant to go out on a long distance voyage anyway. Water purification/recycling shouldn't have been an issue. I've always assumed Overtech came with methods for such things as rapidly producing air, food, & water, as (aside from the food ratoining) none of that ever seems to be a problem in Macross.

[kensei]

Didn't they mention rations earlier on?  I thought they did.

Also, the SDF-1's initial fold took an entire section of the city with it, along with shelters.  The various buildings no doubt had food and so did the shelters.

Lastly, did they not resupply at Mars base?  Obviously perishables would not remain, but non-perishables would still be plentiful.  The series showed the Macross loading truckloads of supplies before the Zentradi trap was finally sprung.

Just a few more factors to consider.

426007[/snapback]

The thing is, if they ended up on the far side of Pluto, it would have taken a long time ot reach earth. When they actually resupplied at Mars, it was just a little ways off from earth. I wonder how rationing went until then.

[thegunny]

The military secretly brought aboard some dead Zentraedi after the battles and packaged the meat and distributed it to the public. laugh.gif

Soylent Green. It's the people!

[ghostryder]

What happens to meat in the vacuum of space? Does it get freeze-dried or preserved in any way?

All that needs to happen is for the meat to freeze instantly (which it did), and then you need to apply just enough heat for the ice to sublime into gas, which is really easy in the vacuum of space. This could have taken weeks, but seems like something they could have done in a heated but non-pressurized section of the ship. Viola - instant astronaut food!

Edited August 18, 2006 by ghostryder

[F-ZeroOne]

I can't believe we've got this far in without anyone mentioning giant tuna heads.

[F-ZeroOne]

The military secretly brought aboard some dead Zentraedi after the battles and packaged the meat and distributed it to the public.

I bet that they did have to recycle all waste though.

425997[/snapback]

Funny you should mention that. One of the Roboticktektoe-comic series claimed thats just what the Zentraedi used to do with their dead on the fleets...

Edited August 18, 2006 by F-ZeroOne

[Briareos9]

I'd be more concerned about where they're getting the materials to produce warheads/ammo and fuel/proppelant for the same. Especially given the considerable number of sorties before resupply. Given all the space that was empty and devoted to storing junk, you'd think the Macross would be suffering from the Ent-B "Tuesday problem." (Tractor beam: It'll be installed on Tuesday; Photon Torpedoes: Tuesday; Medical crew: You guessed it, Tuesday)

[Knight26]

Fuel really wouldn't be too much of an issue, they passed by several gas giants on their way home, all they had to do was dip into the atmosphere and collect hydrogen for processing into valkyrie fuel. Missile propellent, that is a different story same with gun powder and explosives. Figure the P and D as well as the big M herself were probably all fully weapon stocked before leaving, but they were expending it quickly too so it probably comes down to scavenging. Post battle they probably went out and gathered up every loose peice of debris they could gather. You see in several episodes as wrecked valks and destroids are hauled around inside the ship, they were probably also hauling in destroyed zentraedi gear as well. Figure a single zentraedi missile would probably provide enough raw material for what a dozen mini-missiles? Plus the Macross took out a few Zentraedi ships as well, and they had to have supplies and provisions onboard. True most of it would not be usable, but you take what you can get right? Imagine that as a Macross side story, a series following the guys who cleaned up after a battle and picked through the wreckage looking for anything usable.

[Pat Payne]

Not to mention that with the weapons, the situation may not have been as dire as it seems, at least in the early months of the conflict. Think of it this way: early on, the Macross was probably having a net loss of troops in the Valk squadrons, as the original compliment was being whittled down and they were waiting for replacement pilots to be trained and replacement Valks to be built, which takes time. That meant that the ammo that was meant for the full compliment (and remember, the ship was built as a warship and so probably had a rather hefty supply of ammo and missiles) was suddenly surplus to the current requirements of the squadrons and could be stretched. It's only as the war dragged on and more pilots and fighters entered the war that the problems probably would have become noticable, and by that time as someone suggested they could cannibalize captured Zentradi gear along with supplies taken on at Mars Base Sara.

I agree that there was most likely a ration economy on board the Macross. There was only so much food to go around, and only so much space and time to grow it in that there'd have to be rationing. Perhaps there was a supplemental cash economy for luxury or non-rationable items (even in WW2, not everything was rationed, just militarily necessary items) such as the ubiquitous Minmay Dolls. As for the steak, I agree it was (even as my heart falls to have to consider the prospect ) probably tofu, as steak would be non-existent at worst and prohibitively expensive at best.

[Mephistopheles]

... As for the steak, I agree it was (even as my heart falls to have to consider the prospect  ) probably tofu, as steak would be non-existent at worst and prohibitively expensive at best.

426221[/snapback]

He ate the steak while they were on Earth. I would imagine that it would be a temporary item. The Macross had enough extra room for a city, who is to say that they didn't have farms in it as well or OT had a method of long term preserving perishables.

Salvaging remains is somewhat supported by scenes in the series however I don't think they had a lot of time to do it. As for ammo stores, on a ship that big there is enough room to store and even produce enough ammo to last a while. Also, aren't the head cannons on the valkyries lasers?

Fuel for the valkyries? I thought they ran on fusion reactors. That was always something I never understood. In an atmosphere the engines behave just like modern jet engines but in space or battlroid mode they couldn't possibly work the same. How do they produce thrust? Burning jet fuel? Wouldn't that make them the same as the VF-0?

[Lightning]

even thermonuke reaction engines need fuel, they ran off of hydrogen

[Pat Payne]

He ate the steak while they were on Earth.

426226[/snapback]

Darn you and your facts!

Edited August 18, 2006 by Pat Payne

[Nied]

I'd imagine that hydro/airponics would take care of most of the food needs for the Macross's crew and civilians. As for some of the meat products, as someone mentioned it could just be soy or TVP, or if you want to get more exotic it could be that they used OTEC biotech and grew cultured chicken, cow, or fish tissue in vats, something we aren't far from being able to do today.

[sketchley]

He ate the steak while they were on Earth. I would imagine that it would be a temporary item. The Macross had enough extra room for a city, who is to say that they didn't have farms in it as well or OT had a method of long term preserving perishables.

426226[/snapback]

But they did have onboard farms. There is some lineart from DYRL showing some zero-G plant growing in operation.

[Lightning]

He ate the steak while they were on Earth. I would imagine that it would be a temporary item. The Macross had enough extra room for a city, who is to say that they didn't have farms in it as well or OT had a method of long term preserving perishables.

426226[/snapback]

But they did have onboard farms. There is some lineart from DYRL showing some zero-G plant growing in operation.

426278[/snapback]

how would a plant grow in zero gravity?

[Spatula]

Food is very important no doubt. I'd be more interested if they had any good drinks to go along. Even better yet, didn't Kakizaki mention that there were some gentlemen's clubs aboard the Macross? I thought he mentioned that when Hiraku said he wanted to have a good time, which was, well, to play nice.

[sketchley]

It may have been micro-gravity. There were doors on the floor for people to walk through. Nevertheless, the planets were spreading in all directions.

Ref.: "Kazutaka Miyatake Design Works Macross and Orguss" pg. 20

How do plants grow in zero g? Simple: feed them water and nutrients via a base for the stalk to grow/mount on. Point a sunlight emulating light at it, and watch it grow towards the light. See Nasa and other real science websites for further information.

[deadghost]

Wrong post.

Edited August 19, 2006 by deadghost

[Ishimaru]

Fuel is a question.

I mean the SDF-1 Engines must have required alot of Hydrogen,etc.

Even for that distance it seems near impossible to support itself. With all the Valks, Cars, Vehicles, etc taking up all the fuel and everything.

I really wonder that...well its just a cartoon.

[Mr March]

The thing is, if they ended up on the far side of Pluto, it would have taken a long time ot reach earth. When they actually resupplied at Mars, it was just a little ways off from earth. I wonder how rationing went until then.

426077[/snapback]

This is a valid criticism. I'm just tossing out possible explanations and factors that may help. I'm not suggesting the Mars-resupply was the whole reason they had food the entire journey nor how they were fed for the first two-thirds of the trip prior SDF-1 Macross arrival on Mars. But it is a factor that could help explain the abundance of food.

But how about some other factors.

I would say that a lot of the supply capability depended upon the maiden voyage of the Macross. If the ship was schedule for a much longer maiden flight, it could explain the abundance of supplies. Or conversely, the Macross could have intentionally been overstocked with supplies. It's my understanding that most modern militaries do the same, oversupplying and preparing for the worst case scenario. Often times in war history, it has been a lack of personnel that hampers a military and rarely a lack of equipment or supplies, which is often in abundance.

Just thought of another factor.

The ship was also oversized and built for beings many times larger than humans. To say the humans had an abundance of storage space on board the SDF-1 Macross is an understatement. It's possible the ship was supplied well beyond what would be required. If the space is available, why not. Even Focker mentioned how massive the ship was for interior space.

[Mr March]

You're right, they DID mention that food was being rationed very early on.

While this was never mentioned again after the Lynns re-opened the restraunt, it was likely sustained, and restraunts were accepting ration vouchers as part of their payment.

The justification used for reopening Macross City's restraunts and grocery stores was probably something to the effect that it would be an easier way for the military to distribute rations if they could send them to businesses instead of directly to individuals. Less deliveries that way.

Aha! I knew I remembered rationing. That would certainly extend supplies. I'm not sure if the story required constant mention of rationing. Once rationing was stated in dialogue, the audience should be wise enough to guess the process would continue as long as supplies were limited. And like you said, the restaraunts and stores were probably used as a more effcient supply train, not to mention it gave the civilian population something to do aboard the Macross. Keeping the civilians busy and happy would be a high priority in such a dire situation.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

They only needed about 1 year supply didn't they? (once they realised how long it would take to get back to earth)

They got supplies from civilian shelters + supplies from mars base + lots of dead fish that would have been frozen in space + whatever they could grow on the sdf1. (they had trees and stuff too didn't they?)

And once they reached earth after a year, resupply again. If it got desperate they could GM food to grow quicker using all the tricks they got from reverse engineering OT.

I think what macross needs is worker robots that do all the work and don't need to be fed food. (the janitors and robot vending machines are early example) The humans can then consume less and all become pilots. As things get more desperate the option to become a cyborg is offered, and people eventually become robots with thier only organ left being thier brains encased in a mechanical exterior (it would actually be promoted as the trendy thing to do) to withstand harsher environments on other planets as they are forced off the ship. The earth government told the families of the survivors on the sdf1 that they were dead and anti un guerillas killed them all. So it might be an option used.

I'm thinking eventually they will be like the transformers: humans will forget about using the actual brain and have thier whole personality inside as bits and bytes and then become 100% robots. Cyber brain would replace thier organic one and they can think and work faster. Then they add variable modes to thier mechanical body and just become like the autobots. Has anyone read that comic Rogue Trooper? Yeah like that: have soldiers whose experience is inside a microchip and all the dead guys live inside the gear.

Or maybe they could have a combination of megazone and the matrix?

The people that are fat and eat all the food stores up too quickly will be forced to enter into sleep mode: and then the government hooks them up into a dream like CG world where they believe they are living thier life as normal. When they finally wake up, the war is over and they can eat as normal? Kinda like world of warcraft addicts? (just kidding)

Edited August 20, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

Fuel is a question.

I mean the SDF-1 Engines must have required alot of Hydrogen,etc.

Even for that distance it seems near impossible to support itself. With all the Valks, Cars, Vehicles, etc taking up all the fuel and everything.

I really wonder that...well its just a cartoon.

426477[/snapback]

Hydrogen is everywhere, actually. The sun's solar wind is largely hydrogen.

That's part of why it features prominently as a scifi fuel. If you have a scoop of some sort, you can just fly around and collect fuel from space. It doesn't even have to be a physical funnel, you can use REALLY big magnetic fields.

[sketchley]

Fuel is a question.

I mean the SDF-1 Engines must have required alot of Hydrogen,etc.

Even for that distance it seems near impossible to support itself. With all the Valks, Cars, Vehicles, etc taking up all the fuel and everything.

I really wonder that...well its just a cartoon.

426477[/snapback]

The cars and other vehicles are easiest to explain: electricity from the ship. It's readily available and it cuts down on atmosphere purification and reprocessing (getting all of that car exhaust out of the filters? Yeech!)

The VFs use something called reactant to power their thermonuclear engines. It is unclear about the rate of consumption of it while in operation - beyond that it is significantly increased when the VF is not in an atmosphere. It is highly probable that the SDF-1 and the carriers that were attached to it were well stocked with it. Of course it is equally probable that the SDF-1 had a way to produce it onboard (supposition: from safe or non-reactive elements. Who'd want to make their ship into a giant fuel bomb?)

The engines of the SDF-1 are the big question mark. They are seen spewing out thrust, AKA particles or mass of some kind, and in the second episode they even mention that the engines are 'conventional' or contemporary technology from Earth.

Of course, if we go into the realm of pseudo-science and anime physics, the engines would be comparible to those on Star Trek ships - specifically the impulse drives. In other words, a small amount of fuel (matter + anti-matter) is used to create a large amount of energy. In this arrangement, it is only the reactant fuel for the VFs that need to be worried about. Though, they could be stealing it from recovered or salvaged Zentraedi refueling pods, or have a magical device that turns regular matter into reactant fuel...

[sketchley]

Hydrogen is everywhere, actually. The sun's solar wind is largely hydrogen.

That's part of why it features prominently as a scifi fuel. If you have a scoop of some sort, you can just fly around and collect fuel from space. It doesn't even have to be a physical funnel, you can use REALLY big magnetic fields.

426572[/snapback]

True, but in space, aside from the big gas planets, there really isn't that much of it. Even in the pseudo-scientific technical manuals for Star Trek, they don't claim for such a system to be that effective in producing the quantities needed to sustain a long duration, let alone fast, trip.

Here's a scientific article on the idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet

And some scientific stuff:

"The collected propellant can be used as reaction mass in a plasma rocket engine, ion rocket engine, or even in an antimatter-matter annihilation powered rocket engine. Interstellar Space contains an average of 10 (to the -21st power) kg of mass per cubic meter of space. This means that the ramjet scoop must sweep 10(to the 18th power) cubic meters of space to collect one gram of ions per second."

In other words, 10,000,000,000,000,000 cubic Km to get one gram.

For fun, in imperial: 62,137,119,200,000,000 cubic miles for all of 0.00220462262 pounds of it.

Edited August 20, 2006 by sketchley

[JB0]

Hydrogen is everywhere, actually. The sun's solar wind is largely hydrogen.

That's part of why it features prominently as a scifi fuel. If you have a scoop of some sort, you can just fly around and collect fuel from space. It doesn't even have to be a physical funnel, you can use REALLY big magnetic fields.

426572[/snapback]

True, but in space, aside from the big gas planets, there really isn't that much of it. Even in the pseudo-scientific technical manuals for Star Trek, they don't claim for such a system to be that effective in producing the quantities needed to sustain a long duration, let alone fast, trip.

Here's a scientific article on the idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet

And some scientific stuff:

"The collected propellant can be used as reaction mass in a plasma rocket engine, ion rocket engine, or even in an antimatter-matter annihilation powered rocket engine. Interstellar Space contains an average of 10 (to the -21st power) kg of mass per cubic meter of space. This means that the ramjet scoop must sweep 10(to the 18th power) cubic meters of space to collect one gram of ions per second."

In other words, 10,000,000,000,000,000 cubic Km to get one gram.

For fun, in imperial: 62,137,119,200,000,000 cubic miles for all of 0.00220462262 pounds of it.

426578[/snapback]

Probably why it usually shows up on relativistic ships in sci-fi.

The faster you're going, the longer your volume is, and the less width you need on your scoop to sustain things.

[Maxtype]

Hydrogen is everywhere, actually. The sun's solar wind is largely hydrogen.

That's part of why it features prominently as a scifi fuel. If you have a scoop of some sort, you can just fly around and collect fuel from space. It doesn't even have to be a physical funnel, you can use REALLY big magnetic fields.

426572[/snapback]

True, but in space, aside from the big gas planets, there really isn't that much of it. Even in the pseudo-scientific technical manuals for Star Trek, they don't claim for such a system to be that effective in producing the quantities needed to sustain a long duration, let alone fast, trip.

Here's a scientific article on the idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bussard_ramjet

And some scientific stuff:

"The collected propellant can be used as reaction mass in a plasma rocket engine, ion rocket engine, or even in an antimatter-matter annihilation powered rocket engine. Interstellar Space contains an average of 10 (to the -21st power) kg of mass per cubic meter of space. This means that the ramjet scoop must sweep 10(to the 18th power) cubic meters of space to collect one gram of ions per second."

In other words, 10,000,000,000,000,000 cubic Km to get one gram.

For fun, in imperial: 62,137,119,200,000,000 cubic miles for all of 0.00220462262 pounds of it.

426578[/snapback]

Probably why it usually shows up on relativistic ships in sci-fi.

The faster you're going, the longer your volume is, and the less width you need on your scoop to sustain things.

426736[/snapback]

the Helium 3 isotope wouldbe a very efficent reaction mass for Macross drives-and it is present in the atmospheres of the gas-giant planets.Also,I believe the waste produced by fusing Helium 3 is good old H2O. I think it wouldn't be difficult to harvest with Macross level tech(I believe the major difficulty is GETTING to the gas giant planets) .Addenum-I just saw on one of those Lunar landing hoax BS websites that there is 10 billion tons of Helium 3 on Luna-deposited by the solar wind.

Edited October 4, 2006 by Maxtype