Vf-1 Development And Tactics

[Crazy Canuck II]

I was looking over my 1/48 Low Vis II the other day and it got me thinking. Why is the VF-1's fighter mode so contemporary? Granted in the Macross timeline the first variable VF-1 prototype won't have it's first flight until Feb. 2007 so it makes sense it would look like todays fighters, but if U.N. Spacy had the Overtechnology to make a variable fighter you'd think they would also make some major leaps in fighter design. Then it occurred to me, perhaps the VF-1 fighter was designed to look like an ordinary fighter to disguise it's use of Overtechnology from the general public. That way the VF-1 could be put into wide service without anyone knowing about it's variable abilities as well as it's roll to protect against possible attack by giant aliens... Anyway, just thought I would share in the hopes of sparking an interesting conversation.

Edited August 6, 2006 by Crazy Canuck II

[kensei]

I would have thought that it was natural progression of a design.

This is reminding me of that other member, Phalanx, whom insists that Kawamori should have designed something looking like the VF-2.

[sketchley]

Keep in mind that development on the VF-1 started within a few years of the "discovery" of OTEC. OTEC itself shouldn't be considered as one big technological advancement, but a series of much, much smaller advances. You could go so far as to say that by the 2050 era of Macross, they still haven't unravelled all of the secrets of OTEC. Think Macross 7 and the developments of spiritia technology - technology that is a part of OTEC, but humans weren't even aware of it for 40+ years.

The major leaps forward in small fighter craft technology were after the end of SWI. You could even go so far as to say that there were a lot of lessons learned from the use of the VF-1 in combat, and they show up in the later designs. The biggest being the steady switch of VFs from general purpose designs to more mission specialized ones.

Anyhow, you hit the nail on the head for the most likely reason for using the VF-14 frame: "(it) could be put into wide service without anyone knowing about it's variable abilities as well as it's roll to protect against possible attack by giant aliens."

It's even possible that the deliberately made the design more boxy, less aerodynamic, and less sophisticated, pricesily to keep it's vizibility low - are you going to look at the boxy new jet that's a look-a-like to a 20+ year-old fighter, or the latest sleak MiG, Su, EU, etc. fighter?

Edited August 6, 2006 by sketchley

[MechTech]

Can you say U.N. (as in U.N. Spacey). All of the U.N.'s equipment averages about 20 years old. It's hand me down's from various countries (mostly U.S. gear).

Actually, what was the most modern airframe design back in the 80's? That's waht Kawamori most likely went by. As I undrstand it, he was a big F-14 fan too. - MT

[sketchley]

Can you say U.N. (as in U.N. Spacey).  All of the U.N.'s equipment averages about 20 years old.  It's hand me down's from various countries (mostly U.S. gear).

Actually, what was the most modern airframe design back in the 80's?  That's waht Kawamori most likely went by.  As I undrstand it, he was a big F-14 fan too. - MT

422955[/snapback]

If I'm not mistaken, the UN has NO Armed Forces*, and any military deployments are composed of the countries who join any UN military action (bringing their own equipment with them, whatever the source and source country is.)

Also, the F-14 wasn't the most modern (USA) fighter in the early '80's. The F-14 made it's service debut in September, 1974**. I'd say that the F-18 was the most modern at the time, being designed and making it's debut from Feb., 1978 and in Jan. 1983, respectively.*** Perhaps the closest in-service fighter would have been the F-16, which made it's service debut in Aug., 1978. I don't claim to be a fighter fan, so I don't know what other fighters from the era Kawamori may have looked at - though given the close relationship between the US Armed Forces, and the Japanese SDF, the USA produced fighters would probably have been the most visible at the time in Japan.

I don't disagree with Kawamori being an F-14 fan. Also, the engine layout allows for a fairly simple transformation sequence**** - which may ultimately be the reason why he chose it.

*I'm talking about reality here, not the Macross one.

** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-14

*** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F/A-18_Hornet

**** He went nuts with the Sv-51. That thing is rediculously complex in it's transformation and how the bits and peices go together.

Edited August 6, 2006 by sketchley

[Mr March]

The humans would have to apply "current" technology to the OverTechnology they acquired. As such, they would use conventional technology and their current level of aerodynamic understanding and merge it with alien tech.

Macross was created in the 1980's. As such, you have aircraft that look like the F-14 but are powered by reaction engines and can transform. If the Macross television series was created in 2006, you'd have aircraft that look like the F-22 that had reaction engines and transformation capabilities. Current human tech adapted to the OT advances. Simple.

[Nied]

Like Mr March said OTEC allowed for better manufacturing techniques and new weapons but it didn't advance human understanding of aerodynamics at all. Combine this with the retcon from M0 that all valks have some kind of active stealth system built in and you have a pretty good explanation for why the Valkyrie doesn't look like an F-22 (hell as I pointed out to Phalanx most of the F-22's contemporaries look more like a VF-1). The only real aerodynamic advancements have been the move by most designers away from swing wings and towards a close coupled delta and canard configuration. But that was done mainly because swing wings turned out to be heavy with current technology. Since overtech would make it pretty easy to make a swing wing design light weight and effective that's not too much of a problem (of course the VF-1's successor returns to the delta wing and canard config).

Edited August 6, 2006 by Nied

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

The humans would have to apply "current" technology to the OverTechnology they acquired. As such, they would use conventional technology and their current level of aerodynamic understanding and merge it with alien tech.

Macross was created in the 1980's. As such, you have aircraft that look like the F-14 but are powered by reaction engines and can transform. If the Macross television series was created in 2006, you'd have aircraft that look like the F-22 that had reaction engines and transformation capabilities. Current human tech adapted to the OT advances. Simple.

That's what I'm going to assume. I think it was mainly the robot mode aspect that had to be hidden (the unspacy marking on the gunpod is upside down for robot mode) from the public because it would be too shocking to most people to know there were giants. Links up perfectly with the episode where hikaru is freaked out at th size of them, and roy explains to him "that's why we built these giant robots to fight these giant aliens." He wouldn't have to explian the secret to a civilian if the public were aware. I wonder if shin knew the vf-0 robot mode was also for that purpose or if he just assumed the robot mode was for anti-mecha fighting. (ie they have destroids with guns for arms, and maybe the robot form with humanoid manipulators to hold the gunpod is just a natural exension of that)

[Aurel Tristen]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall him saying that he actually designed the VF-1 in battilod (spelling) mode and worked his way back to fighter, and that he didn't intend for it to look like the F14 at all. Not sure where I read that, but it makes since to me. If you really look at it, the only things that make it allot like the F14 are the sweeping wings and duel engines. It actually reminds me quite a bit of the F15, the way the body is boxy near the engines. The lack of horizontal stabilizers all together destroys its F14 look for me.

[Lightning]

The humans would have to apply "current" technology to the OverTechnology they acquired. As such, they would use conventional technology and their current level of aerodynamic understanding and merge it with alien tech.

Macross was created in the 1980's. As such, you have aircraft that look like the F-14 but are powered by reaction engines and can transform. If the Macross television series was created in 2006, you'd have aircraft that look like the F-22 that had reaction engines and transformation capabilities. Current human tech adapted to the OT advances. Simple.

That's what I'm going to assume. I think it was mainly the robot mode aspect that had to be hidden (the unspacy marking on the gunpod is upside down for robot mode) from the public because it would be too shocking to most people to know there were giants. Links up perfectly with the episode where hikaru is freaked out at th size of them, and roy explains to him "that's why we built these giant robots to fight these giant aliens." He wouldn't have to explian the secret to a civilian if the public were aware. I wonder if shin knew the vf-0 robot mode was also for that purpose or if he just assumed the robot mode was for anti-mecha fighting. (ie they have destroids with guns for arms, and maybe the robot form with humanoid manipulators to hold the gunpod is just a natural exension of that)

423059[/snapback]

well, you gotta remember too, Shin saw the -51 before he saw the -0.....so who knows what they told the pilots in the briefing rooms and in the instruction manual.

*looks up at his 1/60 VF-0S*.....

they could've told them it was so that way the valks could fight the destroids while using speed to the best of their ability.

[sketchley]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I recall him saying that he actually designed the VF-1 in battilod (spelling) mode and worked his way back to fighter, and that he didn't intend for it to look like the F14 at all.  Not sure where I read that, but it makes since to me.  If you really look at it, the only things that make it allot like the F14 are the sweeping wings and duel engines.  It actually reminds me quite a bit of the F15, the way the body is boxy near the engines.  The lack of horizontal stabilizers all together destroys its F14 look for me.

423073[/snapback]

I think Kawamori would have included them (the horizontal stabilizers) if he had figured out where to put them in battroid mode. After that, it became VF convention to *not* have horizontal stabilizers.

The funny thing is that with thrust vectoring (ret-conned into the VF-1 ever since the PS1 game "Macross: DYRL"), vertical stabilizers wouldn't be needed, and the existing ones on VFs could be turned into horizontal stabilizers to provide more lift.

As for his robot-came-first, I can see that. I've designed VFs of my own (see the VF-5 thread in the fan works forum,) and the process I usually use is a combination of both how it looks in battroid and fighter modes, and working out where and how the different bits and pieces fit together. Therefore. it's entirely plausible that Kawamori started with the battroid, made the jet mode, decided it looked like the F-14, and then added F-14 and jet elements to the battroid.

[David Hingtgen]

The VF-1 has the F-14's gloves/bags/fences, intakes, overall wing design (especially the control surfaces) and beavertail--that's a LOT of the F-14's design cues, and utterly "not needed" for transformation or battroid looks--they're pure F-14 parts. He may not have been going for an F-14 to start with, but he sure ended up putting a lot of "looks exactly like the F-14 and nothing else" parts on it by the end. Basically agreeing with sketchley's last sentence.

Edited August 7, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[JB0]

It's even possible that the deliberately made the design more boxy, less aerodynamic, and less sophisticated, pricesily to keep it's vizibility low - are you going to look at the boxy new jet that's a look-a-like to a 20+ year-old fighter, or the latest sleak MiG, Su, EU, etc. fighter?

422943[/snapback]

But they were also making a big production out of how awesome the new Valkyrie fighters were at the Macross' launch ceremony. That'd seem to torpedo that theory.

I always just figured the boxy airframe(which is definitely a major step backwards even in-continuity, given the Unification Wars flashbacks in Rainy Night) was a necessary sacrifice to accomodate the transformation mechanisms and robot parts.

More modern VFs benefit from a better understanding of overtechnology, allowing more elaborate transformations. Hence they resemble later generations of fightercraft.

And once you strip the need for a transformation away, you get something that looks more like it belongs in the setting it flies in.

...

Except for the enhanced F-14s in Macross Zero.

Edited August 7, 2006 by JB0

[sketchley]

Wasn't that big production at the launch ceremony their big introduction? Until that time, they were 'secret,' right? And we all know that it is difficult to impossible to keep an aircraft secret, if it ever takes to the air. Also, their transforming abilities weren't shown (I'm not sure if they were planned to be shown or not) at the launch ceremony.

Personally, I see the launch ceremony as more of a glorified airshow - the VFs are doing little more than the standard airshow tricks. In a way, it's just a celebration for the years of hard work put into the projects (VF, SDF, etc.,) and just a taste of what they can do (VFs, in particular.)

So, I'm going to modify my original stance slightly - keep it secret from the manufacturers that were sourced for parts in addition to what was said before.

[David Hingtgen]

Just like to point out that the most advanced fighter in many years is also the overall boxiest-fuselage fighter in many years, the F-22. It's an angled F-15 and little more, shape-wise.

Aircraft designers finally discovered something ship (and locomotive) designers did a while ago: boxy shapes have more internal volume, and are cheaper to make. Avionics determine an aircraft's future and usefulness more than its aerodynamics do nowadays. The Legacy Hornet isn't being phased out for age/aerodnyamic/engine reasons, it's run out of room for avionics! It simply can't be upgraded any more, because there's no room inside. (The F-14 actually got too old, it has room for some more electronic gizmos inside--but it would have been gone a decade earlier for avionics reasons if it didn't have that room)

The Super Hornet has like half of its avionics space empty when it leaves the factory, to allow for the inevitable needs in the future. What are the new big LERXs on the Super Hornet used for? More electronics space! They're packed with them.

Bigger, boxier fuselages also allow for more of another critical factor: fuel. More fuel is always good.

Final comment: I do think the F-22 is kind of "against the trend", and is mainly boxy for stealth+internal carriage reasons. Go look at the YF-23---as un-boxy and 3-dimensionally complex as can be. (And stealthier and sleeker overall). The YF-23 was the future of aerodynamic design, the F-22 is "what Lockheed's lobby accomplished". Maybe in another 20 years we'll see planes that equal the YF-23. Gotta wait for the future to catch up to the past.

PS--going with sketchley's comment---it's pretty common to design someting classified system-by-system, with almost no one knowing how it'll all come together until the end. (just gotta make sure it fits--also why military design is slow, expensive, and inefficient--hard to design stuff when no one knows what's going on) F-117 was done exactly like that. Wouldn't be surprised if the VF-1 hand-articulation team had no idea they were doing anything other than something for industrial factory robots, and that the VF-1 "eye sensor" team had no idea it was actually to be installed in a head, not some new type of submarine periscope.

Edited August 7, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Lightning]

Just like to point out that the most advanced fighter in many years is also the overall boxiest-fuselage fighter in many years, the F-22.  It's an angled F-15 and little more, shape-wise. 

Aircraft designers finally discovered something ship (and locomotive) designers did a while ago:  boxy shapes have more internal volume, and are cheaper to make.  Avionics determine an aircraft's future and usefulness more than its aerodynamics do nowadays.  The Legacy Hornet isn't being phased out for age/aerodnyamic/engine reasons, it's run out of room for avionics!  It simply can't be upgraded any more, because there's no room inside.  (The F-14 actually got too old, it has room for some more electronic gizmos inside--but it would have been gone a decade earlier for avionics reasons if it didn't have that room) 

I always wondered what the real reason was for both being switched out for the Superbugs...

The Super Hornet has like half of its avionics space empty when it leaves the factory, to allow for the inevitable needs in the future.  What are the new big LERXs on the Super Hornet used for?  More electronics space!  They're packed with them.  

Bigger, boxier fuselages also allow for more of another critical factor:  fuel.  More fuel is always good.  

Final comment:  I do think the F-22 is kind of "against the trend", and is mainly boxy for stealth+internal carriage reasons.  Go look at the YF-23---as un-boxy and 3-dimensionally complex as can be.  (And stealthier and sleeker overall).  The YF-23 was the future of aerodynamic design, the F-22 is "what Lockheed's lobby accomplished".   Maybe in another 20 years we'll see planes that equal the YF-23.  Gotta wait for the future to catch up to the past.

-snip-

423140[/snapback]

Wasn't the F-22 supposed to be a totally redone F-15 in the first place? In all the stuff I read, in books, on Discovery Wings channel, and online (didn't have access to the really good books) they kept saying the whole time about the F-22 being a redone F-15........is it a lie?

EDIT: added a couple words

Edited August 7, 2006 by Lightning 06

[Crazy Canuck II]

Some very good points. Even if Overtechnology was not fully understood or developed in the VF-1, in the very least I think we can agree there had to be some major leaps in materials technology. The VF-1 must be made of some impressive materials to withstand the stresses of transformation in mid flight. That alone seems like enough to advance fighter design. If todays aerospace engineers had access to the types of material the VF-1 is made of I suspect they would be able to advance fighter design leaps and bounds. Which still begs the question, why did the VF-1 designers decided to go with such a traditional fighter design. I suppose another explanation other than my original idea that it was for security reasons, is that the VF-1 designers knew they would have their hand full with the transformation and battroid mode and elected to keep the fighter design within their current realm of understanding. Perhaps it was a combination of both security and design/financial reasons to keep the fighter simple.

[eugimon]

I would just like to say, thank god kawamori made the design contemporary and not "futuristic."

Futuristic designs rarely hold up as such and quickly become dated and very specific to the era in which they were designed. Vehicles that are designed that incorporate real world elements and obey laws of physics stand a much better chance of surviving the ravages of father time.

[sketchley]

why did the VF-1 designers decided to go with such a traditional fighter design. I suppose another explanation other than my original idea that it was for security reasons, is that the VF-1 designers knew they would have their hand full with the transformation and battroid mode and elected to keep the fighter design within their current realm of understanding. Perhaps it was a combination of both security and design/financial reasons to keep the fighter simple.

423152[/snapback]

Part of it may have been that there is actual combat and flight data for the airframe. It would be easier to anticipate the characteristics of the finished product based on the existing knowledge. Maybe they even knew going in that the design may not have been the best, but it would still meet their needs.

[JB0]

Wasn't that big production at the launch ceremony their big introduction?  Until that time, they were 'secret,' right?  And we all know that it is difficult to impossible to keep an aircraft secret, if it ever takes to the air.  Also, their transforming abilities weren't shown (I'm not sure if they were planned to be shown or not) at the launch ceremony. 

Ah, I see what you mean now.

That makes sense.

And I think the transformation capability was intended to be kept secret. Not sure, though.

Personally, I see the launch ceremony as more of a glorified airshow - the VFs are doing little more than the standard airshow tricks.  In a way, it's just a celebration for the years of hard work put into the projects (VF, SDF, etc.,) and just a taste of what they can do (VFs, in particular.)

*nods*

I was just thinking that if you want to keep it a secret, talking about your new bestest plane ever isn't the way to do it.

But if they just wanted to keep the interesting parts secret after the launch ceremony, it works.

Possibly incredibly well, given the plane doesn't even LOOK that futuristic. Who'd suspect it of being a robot in disguise?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

And I think the transformation capability was intended to be kept secret. Not sure, though.

I'm pretty sure only the plane mode was what the airshow was for. In episode 1: why is everyone (civilians) so surprised that the plane transforms into a robot? Thier reaction being like it is something new or unheard of? Hikaru didn't even know he was inside one until he got out and asked what it was he was standing on.

Also the anti-un "stole" the transformation info in macross zero as if to say that it must be something valuable or "new" or a thing so important that it could change the tide of the war. (if the enemy has it you are doomed) I think of it as the macross equivalent of the gundam v project plans or the death star plans or something. "If the plans fall into the hands of the enemy it could change history" kind-of-thing.

Edited August 7, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

And I think the transformation capability was intended to be kept secret. Not sure, though.

I'm pretty sure only the plane mode was what the airshow was for. In episode 1: why is everyone (civilians) so surprised that the plane transforms into a robot? Thier reaction being like it is something new or unheard of? Hikaru didn't even know he was inside one until he got out and asked what it was he was standing on.

But the launching ceremony was interrupted pretty badly when the zentradi defolded.

It's possible that GERWALK and battroid were being saved to cap off the day's festivities.

Also the anti-un "stole" the transformation info in macross zero as if to say that it must be something valuable or "new" or a thing so important that it could change the tide of the war. (if the enemy has it you are doomed) I think of it as the macross equivalent of the gundam v project plans or the death star plans or something.

423187[/snapback]

So Hikaru's flying a planet-destroying super weapon, and doesn't even know it?

I guess that answers the Megaroad 1 question...

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Nah more like independance Day when the humans beat the more advanced aliens by reverse engineering thier tech by studying thier best weapons to figure a way to use them against thier creators.

Why waste money creating your own when you can copy and clone something by stealing? UN were getting thier asses kicked up until the vf0.

It's possible that GERWALK and battroid were being saved to cap off the day's festivities.

Maybe. But I think it would send the people into a panic by letting them know you are up against giants. Hikaru was frightened like a little school girl at the sight of one. I bet people would start to ask questions like why did we spend all this money on such a stupid design when we have destroids! 20 times cheaper!

I think in the english dub roy makes mention: now you know the "secret" or something to that effect after shooting it in the back. Why wouldn't roy have just told hikaru about it from the beginning? It possible he never expected one to come out of the cockpit for people to see and that "it will only be revealed when necessary to avoid the panic it would cause"

Edit:

From ep2:

H:"what's the deal with these crazy fighter planes turning into robots?"

R:"sorry I really can't get into that right now"

H:"Ooooo! Some military secret!"

R:"Bingo!"

R:"But I can tell you if you join up. How 'bout it?"

..indicating that the public was kept in the dark and not be given any info on the aliens. So roy had no real intention of letting his own friend know about it until his first encounter with the giant. (it would make no difference at that point, but my guess is had the giant not crawled out of the mech, Roy wouldn't have told hikaru anything, unless he accidently let slip while drunk or something.)

Edited August 15, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[ghostryder]

boxy shapes have more internal volume...  Bigger, boxier fuselages also allow for more of another critical factor:  fuel.  More fuel is always good.  

With respect to the VF-1, I think the boxiness came more out of necessity for housing transformation mechanisms, like JBO said. Even later generation VFs like the YF-19 and quasi-redesigns like the VF-0 have very boxy legs, just to make transformation simpler. I'd argue that the VF-1, while ho-hum overall, is one of the simplest and cleanest looking VFs. Give it a ridged nose section like the VF-0 and some more angled edges at the intake area and control surfaces, I'd even say it is one of the stealthiest (based on our current understanding of what stealth is).

For a given aircraft, a more blended fuselage shape will generally provide more internal volume and structural strength for a given surface area (which is roughly correlated to how draggy the airframe is). Look at the F-16 - it's a 70's era design but had a blended wing/fuselage design that added much internal volume for fuel.

You are correct in that boxey airframes would allow room for more avionics and gizmos, since most gizmos are in fact boxes.

Edited August 7, 2006 by ghostryder

[JB0]

It's possible that GERWALK and battroid were being saved to cap off the day's festivities.

Maybe. But I think it would send the people into a panic by letting them know you are up against giants. Hikaru was frightened like a little school girl at the sight of one. I bet people would start to ask questions like why did we spend all this money on such a stupid design when we have destroids! 20 times cheaper!

In Hikaru's defense, he was frightened at the sight of a 30-foot tall man walking towards him with muderous intent after he'd just emptied an entire clip into the guy.

This was, of course, on top of the initial attack, getting shot down in a dog fight, and crashing through a city block or 2 of buildings.

He had every right to crap his pants and pass out right then and there.

Also... That combination of comments(revealing battroid freaking people out, why buy VFs when we already have destroids) raises a major question.

Were the destroids ever made public?

Any conclusion you can reach from the battroid can also be reached from the Spartan. If they wanted to hide that they were building giant infantry, at least the Spartan should've been top-secret.

They could make cases for the less humanoid mechs(Monster, Tomahawk, Defender), but once you get to the Spartan and VF battroid, questions arise.

The existence of functional arms implies you consider melee a possibility, which is a joke for vehicular combat(the number of times a tank commander issued orders for ramming speed in actual combat can probably be counted on one hand). There's only 2 obvious conclusions: either the military's gone insane or you expect to see some really big infantry.

Details of the space forces were likely kept secret for similar reasons. No reason to have guns in space unless someone else brings 'em up there.

And Mars Base was an observation outpost. It wouldn't take a lot of effort to connect the dots from there. The existence of an extraterrestrial observation base implies you believe there's an extraterrestrial threat.

Was probably all pitched as exploratory scientific endeavours until the Anti-UN stole an Oberth and attacked the Mars Base crew coming back to Earth. Then they can "retrofit" weapons onto the existing vehicles as "protection against the Anti-UN," who they probably claimed added weapons to the stolen Oberth in the first place.

I think in the english dub roy makes mention: now you know the "secret" or something to that effect after shooting it in the back. Why wouldn't roy have just told hikaru about it from the beginning? It possible he never expected one to come out of the cockpit for people to see and that "it will only be revealed when necessary to avoid the panic it would cause"

Even Roy didn't know what they were actually like, though.

There's a line in that scene to the effect of "Even I didn't know they looked like us."

All he knew was that they were big.

But regardless of how secret it was, once Hikaru got up first priority was saving his bacon. So it makes sense to take a no-nonsense, do this and that approach. Explanations can come once he's tucked away safely in a shelter.

Edit:

From ep2:

H:"what's the deal with these crazy fighter planes turning into robots?"

R:"sorry I really can't get into that right now"

H:"Ooooo! Some military secret!"

R:"Bingo!"

R:"But I can tell you if you join up. How 'bout it?"

..indicating that the public was kept in the dark and not be given any info on the aliens. So roy had no real intention of letting his own friend know about it until his first encounter with the giant. (it would make no difference at that point, but my guess is had the giant not crawled out of the mech, Roy wouldn't have told hikaru anything, unless he accidently let slip while drunk or something.)

423190[/snapback]

They REALLY didn't want people thinking "Crap, there's giant aliens out there that want to kill us."

But the relevant part was obvious once the fecal matter hit the air-circulation device.

Everyone could guess it was an alien attack if they saw the mechs. No one knew it was a giant humanoid attack.

I figure that once Hikaru was safe, it might've come out anyways. He'd already seen what was going on, so he could make a good guess.

[Nied]

Details of the space forces were likely kept secret for similar reasons. No reason to have guns in space unless someone else brings 'em up there.

And Mars Base was an observation outpost. It wouldn't take a lot of effort to connect the dots from there. The existence of an extraterrestrial observation base implies you believe there's an extraterrestrial threat.

Was probably all pitched as exploratory scientific endeavours until the Anti-UN stole an Oberth and attacked the Mars Base crew coming back to Earth. Then they can "retrofit" weapons onto the existing vehicles as "protection against the Anti-UN," who they probably claimed added weapons to the stolen Oberth in the first place.

423380[/snapback]

No reason to keep space weapons a secret, they were quite open about those being to repel an alien invasion. From the Compendium's chronology:

2000

June

The existence of aliens officially announced (except for their size and other details which are kept top secret). Following this, framing plan for Earth U.N. Government officially announced.

[Nied]

Some very good points. Even if Overtechnology was not fully understood or developed in the VF-1, in the very least I think we can agree there had to be some major leaps in materials technology. The VF-1 must be made of some impressive materials to withstand the stresses of transformation in mid flight. That alone seems like enough to advance fighter design. If todays aerospace engineers had access to the types of material the VF-1 is made of I suspect they would be able to advance fighter design leaps and bounds. Which still begs the question, why did the VF-1 designers decided to go with such a traditional fighter design. I suppose another explanation other than my original idea that it was for security reasons, is that the VF-1 designers knew they would have their hand full with the transformation and battroid mode and elected to keep the fighter design within their current realm of understanding. Perhaps it was a combination of both security and design/financial reasons to keep the fighter simple.

423152[/snapback]

I don't think new materials would change the aerodynamics of a design as much as you think it would, and I seriously doubt that the UN spacy would gimp its premeire defense for the human race just to keep a secret about the size of the enemy (of course I never saw a point in keeping that aspect of the enemy a secret in the first place). Frankly if you look at the VF-1's design it actually makes a lot of sense as a fighter that is designed with modern aerospace engineering principles but built with super duper alien materials technology. First of all it's a swing wing design which has been proven to be very efficient for fighter aircraft but at the same time unreliable and heavy using current design techniques (a problem solved by Overtechnology). Second it has no vertical stabilization of any kind other than thrust vectoring, which is utterly impossible to do with today's technology (current production thrust vectoring schemes just don't respond fast enough to keep a plane stable, again solvable with new light weight materials and servos). And finally it has a simple intake system that allows a maximum of airflow into the engines (something that current design theory is moving away from to improve the stealthiness of an aircraft, but that isn't an issue when you have a magic box to do that for you).

[Nied]

With respect to the VF-1, I think the boxiness came more out of necessity for housing transformation mechanisms, like JBO said. Even later generation VFs like the YF-19 and quasi-redesigns like the VF-0 have very boxy legs, just to make transformation simpler. I'd argue that the VF-1, while ho-hum overall, is one of the simplest and cleanest looking VFs. Give it a ridged nose section like the VF-0 and some more angled edges at the intake area and control surfaces, I'd even say it is one of the stealthiest (based on our current understanding of what stealth is).

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Actually with the exception of the VF-17 and YF-21/VF-22 none of Kawamori's VFs are very stealthy at all for one simple reason: they all have exposed engine faces. spinning turbine blades are huge radar reflectors, which is why most of the aircraft you see coming out today have them well hidden behind curved inlets, just doing that makes it several times more difficult to see an airplane on radar. It's not a problem when all VFs have a magic "active stealth system" but even the VF-19 would be incredibly easy to detect with today's radars without it.

[JB0]

Details of the space forces were likely kept secret for similar reasons. No reason to have guns in space unless someone else brings 'em up there.

And Mars Base was an observation outpost. It wouldn't take a lot of effort to connect the dots from there. The existence of an extraterrestrial observation base implies you believe there's an extraterrestrial threat.

Was probably all pitched as exploratory scientific endeavours until the Anti-UN stole an Oberth and attacked the Mars Base crew coming back to Earth. Then they can "retrofit" weapons onto the existing vehicles as "protection against the Anti-UN," who they probably claimed added weapons to the stolen Oberth in the first place.

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No reason to keep space weapons a secret, they were quite open about those being to repel an alien invasion. From the Compendium's chronology:

2000

June

The existence of aliens officially announced (except for their size and other details which are kept top secret). Following this, framing plan for Earth U.N. Government officially announced.

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Ah.

That makes things a lot simpler.

Though one wonders why the size was classified in the first place.

Guess because "HOLY CRAP GIANT ALIENS WANT TO KILL US!" might make for worse publicity than "HOLY CRAP ALIENS WANT TO KILL US!"

Classifying "other details" at least lets you pretend you've developed equivalent weaponry. And given all we got was the Macross itself, which was pretty light on guns, we could even say it with a straight face. "Yeah, they have some huge slow guns, but not much else..."

It's not a problem when all VFs have a magic "active stealth system" but even the VF-19 would be incredibly easy to detect with today's radars without it.

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Magic's a bit unfair.

If it's waveform cancellation, we know how to do it with modern technology. Just not how to do it practically.

Big problems are that you have to calculate everything fast enough to send a properly-timed inverse wave back out, and you need a lot of power to get signifigant results(total RADAR invisibility, of course, requires power equal to whatever portion you're reflecting back at the source). And then you need antennae in the right places to broadcast your inverse wave at the origin antenna.

Overtechnology would easily solve problem 2, and very likely 1 as well.

Problem 3 might have just been ignored, but it's potentially conceivable that overtech could enable them to use a lot of microantennae imbedded in the plane's skin. Or even actually use portions the skin itself as antennae(they can make it stronger with the flick of a switch, why NOT make it radio-emissive too?).

And as a side benefit, you probably get better radar-absorbant materials, which reduces the broadcast requirements.

The exposed jet turbines are still an ugly design issue, though. Even if they're made out of some sort of extremely durable RAM, and have large dedicated anti-RADAR antennae around the intakes, it's still a waste of power.

[sketchley]

I am of the mind that the Active Stealth is more akin to a radar absorbing energy field, than a radar canceling one.

Truth be known, we know next to nothing about it... what is known is that it 'erases' the radar return of the vehicle using it, but little more. It could be a waveform cancellation, but my limited knowledge in the subject is making me think that the radar broadcast to do that, could be detected by other nearby units using passive detection means; in other words, defeating the purpose of active stealth.

[Zinjo]

I suspect the whole "display" at the airshow was to show off the manueverability of the new fighter with "hinged" engine nacelles allowing for greater Thrust vectoring ability of the jets.

I wonder why anyone would see the need for some magical energy system as the armor on the VF-1 (particulary since they didn't know of the possibility of a pin-point barrier until months later)?

We already know that composite ceramics can be twice as strong as steel and weigh less than a fraction of it.

It more conceivable that OTEC allowed for revolutionary advances in material design and processing. Things like transparent aluminum and super strong ultra light skinning materials that would have been used on the VF-1 fighters. Hikaru describes to Minmay that the bulkhead they found in the SDF-1 were made of "Hypercarbon Steel", not something we use today...

I tend to agree with JBO with respect to the anti-radar systems on the VF-1. With the advances of OTEC they could have had many options to work with in employing the stealth system.

Edited August 8, 2006 by Zinjo

[JB0]

I am of the mind that the Active Stealth is more akin to a radar absorbing energy field, than a radar canceling one.

Truth be known, we know next to nothing about it... what is known is that it 'erases' the radar return of the vehicle using it, but little more.  It could be a waveform cancellation, but my limited knowledge in the subject is making me think that the radar broadcast to do that, could be detected by other nearby units using passive detection means; in other words, defeating the purpose of active stealth.

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It could be detected if it wasn't focused enough. Sort of like a flashlight as opposed to a laser.

I used waveform cancellation because there's actually a current theory for how it could work. It requires a much smaller leap in technology than a damping field does.

I wonder why anyone would see the need for some magical energy system as the armor on the VF-1 (particulary since they didn't know of the possibility of a pin-point barrier until months later)? 

We already know that composite ceramics can be twice as strong as steel and weigh less than a fraction of it. 

It more conceivable that OTEC allowed for revolutionary advances in material design and processing.  Things like transparent aluminum and super strong ultra light skinning materials that would have been used on the VF-1 fighters.  Hikaru describes to Minmay that the bulkhead they found in the SDF-1 were made of "Hypercarbon Steel", not something we use today...

It's still walking on it's exhaust nozzles, though.

And hypercarbon steel could be a number of things, some of which are close to real-world materials.

Real-world high-carbon steel's big problem is it's brittle. I imagine the big advantage of "hypercarbon" steel would be that it flexes like softer steels while retaining the durability of a harder steel.

For the record, the Compendium entry about the similarly-aged VF-0 says "Space metal materials are used for the composition of the fuselage's frame, but titanium/carbon composite is used for the outer skin."

Of course, several conditions could lead to diverging construction. The VF-0 wasn't intended for combat, so an "armored" skin might not have been desirable. Or in the other direction the space metal could've been considered too much of an unknown, so the VF-1 was constructed entirely with conventional alloys and only the testbed VF-0 got the new materials.

Besides, you can never have too much durability.

And the SWAG armor isn't conceptually similar to the barrier systems. Even in Macross Zero there's a lack of visible manifestation of it. It's either skintight and transparent(which the barrier wasn't) or a strengthening of existing material instead of a new layer.

[Nied]

I always figured hypercarbons referred to some kind of long chain carbon molecule (buckyballs, nanotubes that kind of thing). It could be very similar to carbon fiber steel but with carbon nanotubes instead of fibers. It's possible the door Hikaru and Minmay were behind was one giant carbon molecule!

[JB0]

I always figured hypercarbons referred to some kind of long chain carbon molecule (buckyballs, nanotubes that kind of thing).  It could be very similar to carbon fiber steel but with carbon nanotubes instead of fibers.  It's possible the door Hikaru and Minmay were behind was one giant carbon molecule!

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But if it was a giant carbon molecule, it wouldn't be steel.

It IS possible that it's an iron alloy with nanotube cables, mesh, or even a 3D web running through it. I'm not sure what sort of alloy you'd get from that, though(or anything, having no real metallurgical knowledge beyond what I've already said).

Of course, there's so many possible alloys that it isn't hard to conceive overtech would supply new ones that outperform existing ones, even without elaborate molecular chains laced through them.

[sketchley]

the metal version of cardboard? Light, flexible, but at the same time rigid, and the dual (or triple) layers also provide a kind of armour protection - a distant relative of the reactive armour on tanks (or is it the process of how spacecraft defeat micrometeorite hits?