Continuing The Macross Saga

[sketchley]

Gah! Sounds too much like Ultraman/Kamen Rider/any of the other plethora of rubber-monster-of-the-week shows already being produced.

If any Macross sequel is to be produced, it MUST have what makes Macross what it is: anti-war story, love triangle, and music. (In a sense, VFs are really only window dressing to the core Macross values, and aren't really needed... )

[mister_e]

In a sense, VFs are really only window dressing to the core Macross values, and aren't really needed...

421386[/snapback]

BLASPHEMER!!!!!

[JB0]

If any Macross sequel is to be produced, it MUST have what makes Macross what it is: anti-war story, love triangle, and music. 

I never really saw the argument for anti-war sentiment in the original series.

At the very least, it's far more subdued than most anime with the theme.

Heck, one of the major story points is the anti-war Hikaru realizing that there ARE times where fighting is necessary, and becoming a highly-respected squadron leader.

And the Macross itself, Earth's biggest and baddest warship, winds up saving humanity in a violent, if highly unorthodox, manner.

It's really a refreshing change of pace from the standard "WAR IS BAD! STOP FIGHTING BACK!" of so many other shows(*cough*Macross 7*cough*), and I appreciate that they DID acknowledge that sometimes every peaceful solution fails and you just have to fight back.

(In a sense, VFs are really only window dressing to the core Macross values, and aren't really needed... )

421386[/snapback]

As long as we've got destroids!

[KingNor]

If any Macross sequel is to be produced, it MUST have what makes Macross what it is: anti-war story, love triangle, and music. 

I never really saw the argument for anti-war sentiment in the original series.

At the very least, it's far more subdued than most anime with the theme.

Heck, one of the major story points is the anti-war Hikaru realizing that there ARE times where fighting is necessary, and becoming a highly-respected squadron leader.

And the Macross itself, Earth's biggest and baddest warship, winds up saving humanity in a violent, if highly unorthodox, manner.

It's really a refreshing change of pace from the standard "WAR IS BAD! STOP FIGHTING BACK!" of so many other shows(*cough*Macross 7*cough*), and I appreciate that they DID acknowledge that sometimes every peaceful solution fails and you just have to fight back.

(In a sense, VFs are really only window dressing to the core Macross values, and aren't really needed... )

421386[/snapback]

As long as we've got destroids!

421396[/snapback]

very well said. notice how no one in the show is really enthusiastic about war either. sure right before a sortie some of the characters get fired up, but when its not "go time" they're all pretty serious about it.

it seems like macross strives for the middle ground of "war is bad, but sometimes its the only choice."

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Well that's what makes the original so good. It has that and then a love story as well. ie max and milia trying to kill each other and then they get married. (and then argue again in macross 7)

And you've got misa seeing the bad side of her duty: her dad sends the crew off to die (never to return to earth again! ) while keeping her safe on earth. (oh so it is ok for other people's sons/daughters honourbly to die but not yours? ) It sort of shows the hypocrisy of the higher ups. Perfectly ok to tell gloval to launch the SDF1 into space with inexperienced crew, yet when their own daughter or son is involved and they know the chances are pretty bad they will take any chance they can get to save thier own skin.

So you see there is conflict in the story between duty and common sense. If you were Misa's dad and Misa was your daughter what would you do? Now when Misa grows up and is in the same position of her dad, she might behave a bit different and choose a different path. (her knowing that the people above her have faults too, and how they don't want to believe her story about the massive number of aliens and instead choose the more risky decision going to war instead of trying to negotiate peace deal. And instead of thinking about the people living on the ship, just using the SDF1 as a "sacrifice" so they can take a position of strength in the negotiation if there were to be a peaceful resolution after they fire a few shots of the grand cannon)

In the end her dad had to admit to misa: you were right about thier strength: there are too many for earth to handle and thier decision costs so many lives. (in the reprisal attack) It took the exhiled SDF1 to keep the human race from extinction.

Characters like milia would have wanted a chance at peace. But you can't if one side wants to do some heavy damage first (to get a better deal in a negotiation by a show of force first) and instead of scaring them or impressing them with your power, you are actually angering the aliens more and do more harm (to yourself) than good.

Edited August 2, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Aurel Tristen]

I feel the safest way to go would be a re-make of SDF Macross. Its nothing new, so its not like you have to worry about people accepting it, story wise, and that cuts down drastically on the writing portion.

What I'm afraid of is an OVA instead, trying to cram all 40 episodes together, and most of all, the use of CG. No one can ever get it right! CG never looks right in an anime. The frame rate is wrong, the movement too smooth, it just doesn't fit. I think that's why Gundam Seed continued to hand draw there Gundams, although they did use GC for the bigger ships. I guess a CG SDF-1 would be a reasonable exchange, but it would have to be done just right.

New music would be needed, and I love the themes they have, but I feel they would need modernization, specifically Minmay's music. In her case, I don't think re-mixing and re-doing the originals would work, except the story specific song We will win (or Ai Oboeteimasuka for Macross) witch brings me to my next point. I guarantee it would be done as Robotech, and not Macross. I think the best option here is a mix of the two. There are some things I like about Robotech (such as the characters names) and other things I really don't like (like Protoculture becoming a fuel, WTF?)

[JB0]

Characters like milia would have wanted a chance at peace. But you can't if one side wants to do some heavy damage first (to get a better deal in a negotiation by a show of force first) and instead of scaring them or impressing them with your power, you are actually angering the aliens more and do more harm (to yourself) than good.

421828[/snapback]

The pre-negotiation Grand Cannon fireworks never happened. Only the post-armageddon Grand Cannon fireworks.

The zentradi fleet defolded and opened fire before anyone could really do anything.

Even if we HAD managed to get in touch with anyone, Bodol'd already decided to wipe us out by the time a cease-fire was seriously being considered.

Besides, I doubt ANY right-minded zentradi would accept a cease-fire. Their entire purpose is to blow stuff up. Not talk to it and make friends with it.

While it was a strong symbol of how little the higher-ups thought of their underlings' opinions, even when the underlings were the only ones that KNEW anything about the enemy, it had no bearing on the end result.

[Zinjo]

If any Macross sequel is to be produced, it MUST have what makes Macross what it is: anti-war story, love triangle, and music. 

I never really saw the argument for anti-war sentiment in the original series.

At the very least, it's far more subdued than most anime with the theme.

Heck, one of the major story points is the anti-war Hikaru realizing that there ARE times where fighting is necessary, and becoming a highly-respected squadron leader.

And the Macross itself, Earth's biggest and baddest warship, winds up saving humanity in a violent, if highly unorthodox, manner.

It's really a refreshing change of pace from the standard "WAR IS BAD! STOP FIGHTING BACK!" of so many other shows(*cough*Macross 7*cough*), and I appreciate that they DID acknowledge that sometimes every peaceful solution fails and you just have to fight back.

Actually I would disagree that the sentiment of SDF Macross was simply "anti-war", but more that "There is nothing glorious about war and it never ends well" would be a closer sentiment, IMO. Making it less about Basra-izing and more about the realities of war. That sometimes you have to fight, but be advised, it won't be glorious or pretty.

Good people died, bad people died, the Earth was destroyed (= billions of humans) and the majority of Bodolza's fleet was destroyed (= billions of Zentreadi).

There was no clear winner, humanity only simply "survived it". Hence the need to colonize the stars, to preserve the human race.

[Zinjo]

I feel the safest way to go would be a re-make of SDF Macross.  Its nothing new, so its not like you have to worry about people accepting it, story wise, and that cuts down drastically on the writing portion.

What I'm afraid of is an OVA instead, trying to cram all 40 episodes together, and most of all, the use of CG.  No one can ever get it right!  CG never looks right in an anime.  The frame rate is wrong, the movement too smooth, it just doesn't fit.  I think that's why Gundam Seed continued to hand draw there Gundams, although they did use GC for the bigger ships.  I guess a CG SDF-1 would be a reasonable exchange, but it would have to be done just right.

You've seen Macross Zero right?

That had the best meshing of CG and animation I've seen to date. They toned down the CG and used less "cartoonish" character designs to bring the animation closer the the CG quality. It wasn't perfect but damn better than the majority (Yukikaze and Appleseed excluded). I would be very curious to see how the CG animators did the space battles and such.

New music would be needed, and I love the themes they have, but I feel they would need modernization, specifically Minmay's music.  In her case, I don't think re-mixing and re-doing the originals would work, except the story specific song We will win (or Ai Oboeteimasuka for Macross) witch brings me to my next point.

I couldn't disagree more. The music still resonates today. It is pop music with a catchy melody and it's well sung. I wouldn't mind seeing a few new songs by Mari, added to the repetroir, but replaced? Not on my watch...

I guarantee it would be done as Robotech, and not Macross.  I think the best option here is a mix of the two.  There are some things I like about Robotech (such as the characters names) and other things I really don't like (like Protoculture becoming a fuel, WTF?)

"100% Pure Macross, accept no substitues!"

RT is what it is, I don't see any point in making Macross Americanized for Japanese audiences, considering the show featured many international characters as it was:

Hikaru and Misa = Japanese

Minmay and Kaifun = Japanese/Chinese

Global = Italian

Shamy = Swedish (I believe)

Roy & Claudia = American

Max = French (It's never stated, but many indicators point in that direction)

etc...

RT followed the Macross story quite closely except where Macek needed to plug in his "magic battery" and masters references. There were several scenes cut from RT that actually develop the Misa / Hikaru romantic interest more.

Is there room to tweak the original story? Sure, but turning it into an RT clone is not an option.

[ComicKaze]

I may be off base here, but I think Kawamori has slightly alienated many of the older Macross fans with his increasingly spiritualistic projects.

418606[/snapback]

It's called George Lukas syndrome.

Macross needs fresh blood.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Their entire purpose is to blow stuff up. Not talk to it and make friends with it.

Those were thier commands true but they are people like us. That's why I like macross: the aliens are not all hostile they have a human side too. If they are 90% like us humans (remember they share a lot in common with us in DNA as shown in the tv series) it might be worth a try to reason with them.

You see thier innocence best when they show the corpse of a dead soldier holding that minmay doll post rain of death.

When you link the events of macross 7 (mylene's mixed blood being the key to opening secrets) to SDF macross, (changing the zentradi's purpose from war being the meaning of life to something more than that) you see that in the end the goal all along of the PC was to "reset" everything back to the way it was before they made themselves extinct through wars and the use of GE to artificially evolve things and play god. If the PC were alive thier message would be: don't follow in our footsteps if you want to avoid those mistakes. (earth was probably thier hope of restarting, and we are thier way of carrying on where they left off. But only if we learn to make peace with each other. Not trying to destroy everything like the zentradi)

When given a chance, the aliens can be peaceful like us. (but if you do things that spoil those chances, burn bridges and generally make the situation worse, you are going to be fighting a battle you can't win.) I don't like to think of the culture shock as a weapon but a way to awaken thier lost humanity.

Up until the end of SW I the aliens were just robots doing what they were programmed to do. The "logical" thing being to destroy those robots. But if you could de-program them and save them from thier own programming, not only will that be less risky to yourself, (never forget we had inferior numbers) but a much less destructive way of bringing peace, because we humans never were in a position of strength to begin with.

It was only because misa lost her camera which recorded the evidence that we were no match against so many (remember when misa dropped her recorder and was crying because she failed the mission to capture the footage?) that made the leaders act so confident.

At any time the aliens could have just blown the SDF1 away at the click of thier fingers. (they only wanted the "lost technology" right?) We never had control to begin with. That's why misa's dad had to admit she was right all along. Had they known there were so many numbers, (misa lost the evidence to prove this, and they must have thought she was lying, with only global believing her story) they might not have acted so recklessly and endanger the whole planet. (suuuure, go make the 900 pound gorrilla angry, just don't come crying if that gorrilla pounds you into the dirt for sneaking an attack on them and does several times more damage to you then you could ever do to them)

The zentradi != to the anti un where it is a small threat. We are talking a planet full of people at stake. Any crap decision means you put that planet full of people (pretty much the entire human race) in danger when you make the wrong move. It would have worked if the alien threat was smaller (like the aliens hadn't the capability to scorch the earth in a matter of seconds) and take a tough stance, (where you really are in a strong position to be able to do that) but that wasn't the case. I'm not arguing against fighting, just not choosing to fight a fight that is unfair to yourself to begin with. (where the odds are so massive against you that it isn't worth the risk to take, because if you lose you bring everything down with you.)

True there are some within every group that can't be reasoned with, but the better action to have taken was to at least try first. If they still wish to kill you and you have no alternative?: sure fight to survive. But I see it as: "we want to blow them up because misa is a big fat liar, possibly exaggerating the numbers to scare us, and our weapons are more than a match to beat them. We being safe in this hole in the ground can negotiate after we kill enough of them first, where we can take a stronger position." ..but completely ignoring the price (the people living on the surface of the planet in direct line of fire from a reprisal attack) if they got it wrong.

Edited August 3, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[sketchley]

Hikaru and Misa = Japanese

Minmay and Kaifun = Japanese/Chinese

Global = Italian

Shamy = Swedish (I believe)

Roy & Claudia = American

Max = French (It's never stated, but many indicators point in that direction)

etc...

422022[/snapback]

I thought Global was Eastern European, and Claudia was the most likeliest contender for French (last name = Laselle.)

Crap... checked the Compendium - Bruno is born in Eastern Europe but of Italian decent, and Claudia is American. Though... max is European.

http://macross.anime.net//characters/index.html

[JB0]

Their entire purpose is to blow stuff up. Not talk to it and make friends with it.

Those were thier commands true but they are people like us. That's why I like macross: the aliens are not all hostile they have a human side too. If they are 90% like us humans (remember they share a lot in common with us in DNA as shown in the tv series) it might be worth a try to reason with them.

Even among humans on Earth, there's people you can't negotiate with.

And remember, Lap'Lamiz called Bodol precisely BECAUSE Britai was being silly and negotiating a cease-fire.

Prior to cultural contamination, the zentradi won't consider any sort of truce. After it, they're scheduled for vaporization by the boss.

When given a chance, the aliens can be peaceful like us. (but if you do things that spoil those chances, burn bridges and generally make the situation worse, you are going to be fighting a battle you can't win.)

The humans didn't do any of that. Aside from the booby-trap cannon firing, it was a purely defensive war.

At any time the aliens could have just blown the SDF1 away at the click of thier fingers. (they only wanted the "lost technology" right?) We never had control to begin with. That's why misa's dad had to admit she was right all along. Had they known there were so many numbers, (misa lost the evidence to prove this, and they must have thought she was lying, with only global believing her story) they might not have acted so recklessly and endanger the whole planet. (suuuure, go make the 900 pound gorrilla angry, just don't come crying if that gorrilla pounds you into the dirt for sneaking an attack on them and does several times more damage to you then you could ever do to them)

WHAT did the higher-ups do to anger the zentradi?

There's only two times in the series that anyone besides the Macross attacks before armageddon: The initial encounter(the ARMDs nuke some suckers), and when Kamjin launches an attack on the Macross sitting in the ocean(but the missiles never reach the zentradi).

The zentradi != to the anti un where it is a small threat. We are talking a planet full of people at stake.

I know that.

Any crap decision means you put that planet full of people (pretty much the entire human race) in danger when you make the wrong move. It would have worked if the alien threat was smaller (like the aliens hadn't the capability to scorch the earth in a matter of seconds) and take a tough stance, (where you really are in a strong position to be able to do that) but that wasn't the case.

But the UN DIDN'T take a tough stance. They were mostly vaporized before they had a chance to do ANYTHING.

I'm not arguing against fighting, just not choosing to fight a fight that is unfair to yourself to begin with. (where the odds are so massive against you that it isn't worth the risk to take, because if you lose you bring everything down with you.)

And what I'm saying is that the decision to fire the grand cannon had no impact on anything.

Had the UN negotiated with Britai directly instead of Global doing it independently after Britai initiated the proceedings, Lap'Lamiz STILL would have reported Britai for rampant sissiness, the main fleet STILL would have defolded in Earth orbit to purge the contaminated zentradi and their contaminators, and the planet STILL would have been blasted back to the stone age.

Once Bodol arrived, there was no time to do anything but gasp in astonishment at the sheer size of the fleet. He opened fire as soon as his fleet got comfortable, and he wasn't listening even if someone DID try to make contact with him(cultural contamination, kill 'em for the good of the zentradi, etc).

True there are some within every group that can't be reasoned with, but the better action to have taken was to at least try first. If they still wish to kill you and you have no alternative?: sure fight to survive. But I see it as: "we want to blow them up because misa is a big fat liar, possibly exaggerating the numbers to scare us, and our weapons are more than a match to beat them. We being safe in this hole in the ground can negotiate after we kill enough of them first, where we can take a stronger position." ..but completely ignoring the price (the people living on the surface of the planet in direct line of fire from a reprisal attack) if they got it wrong.

But that decision had no impact whatsoever on the outcome of the war. The Grand Cannon was not fired until AFTER Bodol's bombardment.

Also, the Grand Cannon firing wasn't to reduce their numbers adequately, it was to show that we had a big freaking gun. And first reprisal to a Grand Cannon firing wouldn't be bombardment of random targets, it'd be bombardment of Alaska Base. You don't kick the dog because a mosquito bites you, you swat the mosquito.

The UN was confident that they had the biggest gun in the galaxy and could awe the zentradi with the awesome might of humanity(and presumably let the zentradi assume they had more than one such cannon). They had no fear of reprisal because they were sure there was none coming.

[Zinjo]

Hikaru and Misa = Japanese

Minmay and Kaifun = Japanese/Chinese

Global = Italian

Shamy = Swedish (I believe)

Roy & Claudia = American

Max = French (It's never stated, but many indicators point in that direction)

etc...

I thought Global was Eastern European, and Claudia was the most likeliest contender for French (last name = Laselle.)

Crap... checked the Compendium - Bruno is born in Eastern Europe but of Italian decent, and Claudia is American. Though... max is European.

http://macross.anime.net//characters/index.html

Actually I'd suspect Claudia's family was probably from Louisiana, or at least of Cajun decent, I garontee...

Thus is why I suspect Max is French, not to mention he named a few of his daughters popular french names, "Mylene" is one that comes immediately to mind... Not to mention the hair...

We also have to understand the Japanese have/had closer entertainment ties with France than any other country and have collaborated on several anime shows.

[Zinjo]

The UN was confident that they had the biggest gun in the galaxy and could awe the zentradi with the awesome might of humanity(and presumably let the zentradi assume they had more than one such cannon). They had no fear of reprisal because they were sure there was none coming.

AH yes, human arrogance at it's finest...

[sketchley]

Thus is why I suspect Max is French, not to mention he named a few of his daughters popular french names, "Mylene" is one that comes immediately to mind... Not to mention the hair...

We also have to understand the Japanese have/had closer entertainment ties with France than any other country and have collaborated on several anime shows.

422247[/snapback]

True, but France isn't the only European country that speaks French. There's Monaco, Switzerland, and Belgium, to name but a few...

nevertheless, good point on the relationship between France and Japan in the entertainment industries.

[Keith]

Misa loosing her camera didn't really change anything either. The U.N. Spacy brass already knew enough about the Zentradi to stay firm in their stance. It could also be assumed (retroactively) from Zero, that they may have mis-interpreted the AFOS leaving after firing reaction weapons at it, as a viable tactic for threatening the impending alien threat. Little would they have realized the reaction weapons had nothing to do with it ceasing its attack & leaving.

[Mowe]

I don't want to see Macross turn into Gundam but I do want to see more Macross...how about more feature films?

[sketchley]

Feature films are doubtful - basically it's a big investment on a risky project. We're more likely to see OVAs - small to medium investment with a greater return potential.

If anything, we'll see more things like DYRL, Macross Plus Movie Edition, and Macross 7: The Galaxy is Calling Me. In other words, move versions of already ongoing (or finished) series.

[Keith]

I wouldn't be surprised if the next project turned out to be a movie, though if it is going to be an OVA, hopefully it'll be more of the 13 episode variety, as the 4-5 episode OVA's always seem too short.