Toynami:

[jenius]

RT.com charges actual shipping through UPS ground IIRC.

[Mechafan]

I want to know this too (the Twin Moons Anime part)!

It is pretty easy. Just let Tam know early enough. I have changed stuff before. I have my Betas preordered thru him now. He has the new Alphas and the 1/100 items on preorder also. Edited March 14, 2008 by Mechafan

[eyesonme78]

Anyone able to come up with a pic on an aoshima legioss with beta?

[Roger]

An email from BBTS customer service when I inquired about the $80 price tag:

Hi Roger - I somehow missed the 'To Be Disclosed' entry on the price list for those. I'm checking with Toynami now, if they can get me any sold info (it may be too early for them to officially tell us) I'll update the site with the new price. If they can't get anything, we'll likely adjust to around $150 and inform customers of the mistake. This was totally my mistake for overlooking it, and we'll update the site and all who preordered as soon as I can get some info back from Toynami - sorry for the error!

Thanks!

Joel Boblit

President

Now let's just relax and take a look back at the speculation you silly geese indulged in, thinking that a toy that was twice the size of the $80 Masterpiece Alpha was only going to cost $80:

$80? They must have fixed all their problems with Aoshima then.

If I could hazard a guess I'd say their earlier statements regarding price were mere trial balloons intended to gauge customer reaction and interest, as well as sheer over estimation. As large as the Beta is at 1/55 (not nearly as large as the Koenig Monster) it is mostly comprised of empty space, and hopefully Toynami has limited die cast to areas where it actually makes sense instead of how they did on the Alphas.

My guess is the Shadow Chronicles might have entered into the decision somehow. Maybe sales of it were high enough that they think the interest's there to recoup the costs and still be profitable? Although there's probably much more to it than that. But it wouldn't surprise me too if a tiny part of the reason it's that much is that they lowered it to entice the people who felt cheated by the subpar QC of the earlier Alpha waves. It's a niche enough market as it is even with whoever the Shadow Chronicles pulled in, so they essentially need to be able to re-sell to the same people.

Looking at the number of people in this thread that have said they pre-ordered already, $80 is definitely the magic number.

You gotta also figure that Toynami did make some money off Aoshima even if Aoshima isn't sticking around for a Tread. That money reinvested into the Beta project might have helped drop prices lower. Their initial price point always seemed more like an excuse for why things were taking so long rather than a truthful estimate of cost.

Also, sorry, Eugimon...

I think 80 bucks is a fair price. I would NEVER pay 150 bucks for a toynami product.

argh, pre-order placed. I can't believe I'm pre-ordering a toynami toy. I hope I don't regret this.

[eugimon]

ah well, thanks for the update. I figure the prices will eventually come down on these like they have with the alphas.

*crosses fingers*

And if not, more money for valks.

[hutch]

Meh, I'd pay $150 for it.

[eriku]

Thanks for the sleuthing, Roger. Sounds like they wont be honoring the $80, although that is a pretty big difference to honor.

So now the cost of the Toynami Alpha/Beta is right back to being roughly the same as the CM's Legioss/Tread. My money is still on CM's.

[Fly4victory]

If TMA has it for $80 and free shipping what is the issue with BBTS not honoring the same price?

[Alpha OTS]

Bummer. $80 did seem too good to be true.

[Roger]

If TMA has it for $80 and free shipping what is the issue with BBTS not honoring the same price?

Because they'd be selling it to you at or near their cost?

I wonder if Twin Moons just copied BBTS' prices, unless they made the same mistake BBTS did and read "TBD" as "$80 SRP." ;p

[jenius]

Roger, did you tell the BBTS guy that Toynami said it'd be $150? From what it sounds like he's just saying "i don't know what the actual cost will be, I'll make the adjustment when we know." This may very well still be an $80 toy.

[Hikaru's VF-1S]

damn twpanime charges me tax cuz i live in cali ;; bah

[Roger]

Roger, did you tell the BBTS guy that Toynami said it'd be $150? From what it sounds like he's just saying "i don't know what the actual cost will be, I'll make the adjustment when we know." This may very well still be an $80 toy.

Yes, I told him that Toynami was telling people at Toy Fair that it would retail for $150, and that the toy is twice the size of the Alpha.

I can't figure out why you think it might actually turn out to an $80 toy.

[jenius]

Well, thank God Toynami has never mislead anyone. Why do you think it's NOT an $80 toy. It stands about as tall as an MPC VF-1 and doesn't have a light up visor. The transformation is pretty straight forward and the only reason I could think of it NOT being an $80 toy is because Toynami keeps complaining about how it'd HAVE to cost a ton without ever giving a convincing reason why.

[Roger]

Why do you think it's NOT an $80 toy.

1) It's about twice as big as the Alpha, which was $80 SRP.

2) Toynami said that it was going to be $150 SRP.

Why would Toynami deliberately mislead people about the price? What would they possibly have to gain by lying to retailers, wholesalers, and other industry people at Toy Fair about the $150 SRP?

There's nothing about this dream $80 price point that's based on fact or reality. The original pricing information came from BBTS, and then they discovered that price was an error.

That's it. Isn't it?

Edited March 14, 2008 by Roger

[jenius]

All Robotech Masterpieces have cost $79.99. Keep quoting twice the size of the Alpha but really it's about the same size of the VF-1. Toynami has long been saying $150 to get people off their balls while they try to figure out what they're doing. All I'm saying is that you have no better idea than anyone else here. George's original quote was $200, now it's $150, maybe it'll be $180, maybe it'll be $100, maybe it'll be $80. If they knew how much it was going to cost they'd tell the people selling it.

[Roger]

This is SO dumb.

Jenius, I will make a bet with you. BBTS will have the pricing information eventually. After they get the information, if they price the Beta at $99.99 or less, I will buy you a Beta, either Volume 1 or 2 (your choice). If they price the Beta at $100 or more, then you buy me Volume 2, because I didn't pre-order that one.

If you want, send Shawn your phone number, he'll get us on a conference call so we can verbally "shake" on it.

[Alpha OTS]

There's nothing about this dream $80 price point that's based on fact or reality. The original pricing information came from BBTS, and then they discovered that price was an error.

That's it. Isn't it?

Yes and no. I'm with jenius. The way that email reads, Joel has no idea what the price will be, and will inflate the pre-order price to prevent unnecessary preorder cancels until the final price is revealed. IIRC, he has done that before on other items: had a high pre-order price, and then dropped it once the final price was known. Since BBTS policy is to not charge your card until your item ships, they have a bit of leeway here, because who's going to complain that the price went down?

$80 isn't an impossible price, imo, for previous reasons stated. But too good to be true for Toynami? Probably.

[Roger]

I'm with jenius.

If Jenius told you to bring your Masterpiece Beta to Yocco's and douse it with chili sauce, would you do it?

[protostar8]

Well, thank God Toynami has never mislead anyone. Why do you think it's NOT an $80 toy. It stands about as tall as an MPC VF-1 and doesn't have a light up visor. The transformation is pretty straight forward and the only reason I could think of it NOT being an $80 toy is because Toynami keeps complaining about how it'd HAVE to cost a ton without ever giving a convincing reason why.

I agree. Thinking about it, the toy likely has very few "complex" parts. The transformation scheme isn't that complex. The toy is most likely going to be hollow for the most part with few diecast parts, which it doesn't need b/c it'll have a hard enough time with weight stressed joints as is. The only reason the Alpha was expensive was because it was complex and full of diecast. If they did that with the Beta, it wouldn't be able to hold a pose with those tiny joints.

I also think BBTS is still a bunch of ***** for not honoring their mistake if it comes down to it. Any clue about what Twin Moons Anime's policy is on that kind of thing??? And if BBTS does post a pre-order early without any VALID pricing info simply b/c they want people to jump on their pre-order band wagon, then they should eat the cost for any difference b/c they lied to their customers.

Edited March 14, 2008 by protostar8

[Alpha OTS]

If Jenius told you to bring your Masterpiece Beta to Yocco's and douse it with chili sauce, would you do it?

What's that have to do with the cost of tea in China?

Re-read the email from Joel. It doesn't state anything about the price with certainty one way or the other.

Wait, there's a Yocco's where you live? I thought that was a Lehigh Valley, PA thing.

[jenius]

I just don't understand how your pricing speculation is smart while everyone else's is silly. Are you saying we can't find toys comparable in size to an MPC Beta that cost $80? The posted price was $80 and came from a more reputable source than George Sohn... boy is everyone here an idiot but you! So sure, it ended up being *potentially* wrong but then you talk as if it is *definitely* wrong because what? George Sohn has your back? The fact of the matter is you don't know the final price, no one does, so step off your high horse and wait like everyone else to find out. If you're right, congratulations, but try not to gloat about a toy being more expensive than everyone wants it to be, it just makes you look like an ass.

[Roger]

Wait, there's a Yocco's where you live? I thought that was a Lehigh Valley, PA thing.

I've seen things you wouldn't believe. Piles of deep-fried pierogies from the Yocco's on 222. I watched hot dogs glitter with chili sauce at the location on Route 100, while I stared, bleary-eyed at that map on the wall and wondered who the hell had hot dogs sent from Pennsylvania to Vietnam.

[baronv]

Man, if the Beta did come in at $80 like at BBTS and TMP then I would've thought about getting it. But if it goes over that price then I'm gonna have to wait a long while to get it when it finally comes out...just like the SV-51 that I want but too high for my blood for now.

[Lonely Soldier Boy]

Preordered the blue one from Tam. If turns to be any good, I'll consider on buying another color. I was never too fond on the sculpt, even before CMs showed their TREAD (wich has great proportions IMHO). The legs are too small and the huffs are too short in Battroid mode, but what worries me the most are the hip hinges. They look real fragile. If they don't break is very likely they won't be able to hold the huge torso balanced for long.

Edit: I hope the torso is indeed hollow plastic and not made of one single piece of solid die cast. Fortunately not even Toynami is THAT stupid... right?

Edited March 14, 2008 by Lonely Soldier Boy

[Roger]

I just don't understand how your pricing speculation is smart while everyone else's is silly.

It looks exactly the same from where I'm sitting, so why bother continuing to debate it?

Are you giving up the chance for a free Beta?

Come on, shake. I'm good for it.

Edited March 14, 2008 by Roger

[Alpha OTS]

I've seen things you wouldn't believe. Piles of deep-fried pierogies from the Yocco's on 222. I watched hot dogs glitter with chili sauce at the location on Route 100, while I stared, bleary-eyed at that map on the wall and wondered who the hell had hot dogs sent from Pennsylvania to Vietnam.

Wait, the Yocco's on 222? I live two blocks away from that! Oddly enough, I've never eaten there, even though people rave about the food.

We're through the looking glass here, people.....

[Roger]

Come on, Jenius, at least just acknowledge that the offer is on the table. FREE BETA.

You want references? I'll provide them.

Shake!

Edited March 14, 2008 by Roger

[jenius]

LOL, I'm sure I'll be enjoying that Beta while I'm flipping through all that rare Mospeada line art right? I'll pass. Unlike you, I'll be hoping us fans are made happy by a reasonably priced toy instead of hoping Mospeada fans continue to get screwed by greedy folks with poor business sense.

[Vermillion21]

Thanks for the news on the possibility that the BBTS pre-order price might change Roger. If it is the case of a mistakenly lower price and BBTS doesn't honour it .... FAWK. That sucks.

I'll admit, it did look way too good to be true.

[Roger]

LOL, I'm sure I'll be enjoying that Beta while I'm flipping through all that rare Mospeada line art right? I'll pass.

I make absolutely no promises (nor have I ever) about the line art. That's a much more complex situation than this.

But I absolutely swear that if you and I make this agreement, I will stick to it. And please, don't mischaracterize my posts by saying stuff like this:

Unlike you, I'll be hoping us fans are made happy by a reasonably priced toy instead of hoping Mospeada fans continue to get screwed by greedy folks with poor business sense.

I'm absolutely overjoyed that we're finally getting a Beta toy, and I don't want to see anybody screwed: neither the manufacturer, nor the retailers, nor the buyers. Unlike you, I'm refraining from impugning anyone's character and taking their words at face value. It's the way I'd like people to judge me.

But hey, I can't do anything about your perception of reality. I do think that your reasoning is silly but I give you credit for sticking to your guns. So why not reward the wear and tear you've been putting on your fingertips by repeatedly responding to me with a free toy?

If you're right, that's what you'll get.

Come on, shake!

[jenius]

I'm refraining from impugning anyone's character and taking their words at face value. It's the way I'd like people to judge me.

You came to this thread with news no one else was privvy to (an email from BBTS) and then mocked several of us for having taken the BBTS price at fair value (coincidentally, the value of all previous RT MPCs so it's not like it was a crazy number). You place your trust in a man of questionable repute (Toycom?) and who is guilty of repeatedly mistating his company's position. You base your own cost estimate on a trivial matter (the cost of plastic?) rather than more significant expenses like complication of design (1/48 VF-1 is LESS complicated to you?) or other materials used (what if it has no diecast?). If you want to be judged by your words and your actions, I think you should know what to expect. You do alter people's perceptions of reality through your choice of rhetoric. I'll elaborate on my thoughts a bit though so it doesn't seem like I'm just discussing you instead of the Beta.

I believe the Beta's price range could vary by a lot depending on decisions likely still being made by Toynami. Here are some variables I see:

1) Production volume. They probably don't even know yet if they're doing 10K of each or some other figure. They probably also don't know what paint schemes they're going to do. Maybe there will be a repaint of Scott which would necessitate a repainted Beta. Are they making 20K or 60K. I have no idea but the price they can asks shifts a lot depending on numbers sold.

2) What percentage of the toy will be diecast? My personal thought is this toy will have to be REALLY light for this to work combined to the rock heavy Legioss. If the toy will be really light without any diecast they're going to have a hard time convincing people it's more than a $79.99 toy.

3) Intricacies of the design. Have we seen a pic with the cockpit open? I think I saw a pick of a Tread with the cockpit open but it was a CMs. I'm guessing though from the slop in various pics the cockpit does open. How does Toynami handle the wheels? Did they take the "eh, screw it" CMs model or did they actually try to do some engineering? We also don't know how they're handling what happens to the cockpit in soldier mode. In some prototypes the cockpit just folds downward, in others it gets concealed within the chest. The BBTS pic showed it concealed... I would pay more for one that gets concealed.

So, that should also explain my reluctance to place a bet on this toy. If you told me it was no diecast, snap on landing gears, and the cockpit just folded down in battroid I'd be a lot more inclined to believe it'll clock in at $79.99. If you told me it had diecast, concealed the chest, and had some form of functioning landing gear then yeah, I'd probably expect it to cost more. I will wait and see. I'm hoping for the best combination of price and features.

[Roger]

Okay, Jenius, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by calling you a "silly goose."

The deal is off the table. No free Beta for you.

(But really, it would have been a free Beta for me. ;p)

[Roger]

One, thing, though:

You place your trust in a man of questionable repute (Toycom?) and who is guilty of repeatedly mistating his company's position.

Why do you repeatedly buy products from someone who is of "questionable repute," and why do you promote their products by reviewing them on your web site?

If you have such a negative opinion of Toynami and George Sohn (I'm assuming your line about "greedy folks with poor business sense" was a reference to them), why do you devote so much time, energy, and resources to purchasing and discussing their products?

Given how worked up you seem to have gotten during this conversation, I think this is something you need to ask yourself.

[Roger]

Okay, Jenius, I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by calling you a "silly goose."

The deal is off the table. No free Beta for you.

(But really, it would have been a free Beta for me. ;p)

BTW, the bet is open to anyone else who wants to take it.

Just one person, though. If I'm wrong, I can't afford to be _too_ wrong. ;p