Valks On Mars

[Zinjo]

And Valks are designed to be light. Most of their armor is via overtech energy fields.We don't really know how those respond to pressure at all.

Really?

Where is that stated?

I always thought they used OTEC composite ceramics, which would provide the same protection as thicker materials with substantially less weight.

They mentioned "Hyper Carbon Steel" in the series, which one could assume is an OTEC alloy.

Edited July 21, 2006 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

What they should have done was shown everyone flying around in GERWALK mode,  the downward pointed thrust would have more than compensated for the loss of lift, and the thin atmosphere would have negated most of the drag issues.

Not to mention it would have been a great opportunity to showcase how combat effective the Valks are in GERWALK mode...

[JB0]

And Valks are designed to be light. Most of their armor is via overtech energy fields.We don't really know how those respond to pressure at all.

Really?

Where is that stated?

I always thought they used OTEC composite ceramics, which would provide the same protection as thicker materials with substantially less weight.

They mentioned "Hyper Carbon Steel" in the series, which one could assume is an OTEC alloy.

418032[/snapback]

It's pretty obvious from the animation that the Valk is rather lightly armored.

No matter what, you have to work around the fact that a large zentradi can rip one apart bare-handed with minimal injury. That means that flesh and blood is stronger than Valk construction, unless the zentradi are actually well-disguised androids.

Compendium says nothing about Valkyrie armor. It DOES mention the rudders are made "with honeycomb construction." That's indicative of low-mass design goals, which aligns with the VF's primary purpose as an aerospace fighter. Low mass is far more desirable in planes and space fighters than heavy armor.

Also notable is that the destroids are far more massive than VF-1s, despite having far fewer parts to consume mass(no transformation mechanism, no jetpack, no reaction mass tanks, no "spare" parts left over from fighter mode). I'd bet good money that most of the mass diffrence is extra armor.

All the Valk really has going for it is the note in the VF-0 entry that technology similar to the VF-0's SWAG "energy converting armor" that triples durability in battroid mode is used on future variable fighters. It's generally assumed this includes the VF-1.

If we assume that Hikaru's energy armor generator was damaged in the fight with Bretai(not unlikely given his battroid got impaled on a large quantity of metallic spikes), then the possibility exists that a VF-1 battroid is considerably more durable.

And wasn't hypercarbon steel mentioned in relation to the SDF-1's construction, not the Valk's?

I don't think I should have to point out that we build aircraft carriers diffrently than we do fighter planes.

[Ali Sama]

Seriously, how fast are the valks flying during ACM w/ Zentradi? With their weight and tiny wings, they would stall and drop like a a rock (ok, maybe a pumice stone).

I guess the quick answer is, yes they could maybe fly on Mars with engines full throttle on a straightaway. Thanks all for the responses  .

417768[/snapback]

their engines won't stall.

[JB0]

Seriously, how fast are the valks flying during ACM w/ Zentradi? With their weight and tiny wings, they would stall and drop like a a rock (ok, maybe a pumice stone).

I guess the quick answer is, yes they could maybe fly on Mars with engines full throttle on a straightaway. Thanks all for the responses  .

417768[/snapback]

their engines won't stall.

418371[/snapback]

Aviation stalling is a diffrent issue than automotive stalling, and has nothing to do with engines.

If they quit getting enough airflow over the wings, they cease to get enough lift to stay airborne, gravity makes itself known, and they start falling like the large lumps of metal that they are.

[GrimlockCW]

and aviation stalling is alot more frightning... i had to do stall practises for my license, and i hope never to do them agian

one moment you going up.. the next the wing drops and your nose is down...

[Nied]

and aviation stalling is alot more frightning... i had to do stall practises for my license, and i hope never to do them agian

one moment you going up.. the next the wing drops and your nose is down...

418412[/snapback]

And that's in docile General Aviation plane. Stalls in military fighters are often unrecoverable and kill pilots on a regular basis.

And jet engines can actually stall as well, it's called a compressor stall. The blades in a jet turbine are just wings turned sideways and spinning in a circle, and just like normal wings under the right conditions they can stop producing lift cutting off air flow through the engine and shutting it down. I don't see any reason why the same thing couldn't happen to a Valkyrie's thermonuclear turbines.

[JB0]

and aviation stalling is alot more frightning... i had to do stall practises for my license, and i hope never to do them agian

one moment you going up.. the next the wing drops and your nose is down...

418412[/snapback]

And that's in docile General Aviation plane. Stalls in military fighters are often unrecoverable and kill pilots on a regular basis.

And jet engines can actually stall as well, it's called a compressor stall. The blades in a jet turbine are just wings turned sideways and spinning in a circle, and just like normal wings under the right conditions they can stop producing lift cutting off air flow through the engine and shutting it down. I don't see any reason why the same thing couldn't happen to a Valkyrie's thermonuclear turbines.

418423[/snapback]

The VF has internal reaction mass. If it's engine ceases to suck air, it can pump mass into it from the tanks. Doesn't use burning fuel like a conventional jet engine, so loss of air is of no consequence there either.

In fact, it probably does that at high speeds anyways.

At high mach, jet engines cease working right. And the Valk has no alternative that I know of besides blocking the intakes and using reaction mass.

[GrimlockCW]

and aviation stalling is alot more frightning... i had to do stall practises for my license, and i hope never to do them agian

one moment you going up.. the next the wing drops and your nose is down...

418412[/snapback]

And that's in docile General Aviation plane. Stalls in military fighters are often unrecoverable and kill pilots on a regular basis.

And jet engines can actually stall as well, it's called a compressor stall. The blades in a jet turbine are just wings turned sideways and spinning in a circle, and just like normal wings under the right conditions they can stop producing lift cutting off air flow through the engine and shutting it down. I don't see any reason why the same thing couldn't happen to a Valkyrie's thermonuclear turbines.

418423[/snapback]

The VF has internal reaction mass. If it's engine ceases to suck air, it can pump mass into it from the tanks. Doesn't use burning fuel like a conventional jet engine, so loss of air is of no consequence there either.

In fact, it probably does that at high speeds anyways.

At high mach, jet engines cease working right. And the Valk has no alternative that I know of besides blocking the intakes and using reaction mass.

418434[/snapback]

hence the reason it can fly in space too

yeah, i was talking general aviation stalling.

a military aircraft can be recovered, but only if the pilots fast, and the altitude was right. test pilots have to do it all the time to examine the stalling properties of an aircraft, to see how it could handle in harsh combat situations.

normaly though you see them crash from lower level flights, as in the videos, making it impossible to pull out in time due to excess speeds.

Even an engine stall can be forced back into function, but agian its a tactic that requires altitude, in order to force air into the intake.

heh, i've worked EA-6B's for 4 years, and when they cease to suck air (a quick burst, so not a full stall) it makes a nicely audible *BOOM*, and the mechs are checking to see whose jet it is and praying

cause it usualy means either the pilot took the turn to tight into pattern, or the engine is offset in its mounting, of course the pilots first assumption is the latter.

[sketchley]

To make better sense of this thread, I’ve gone back and reviewed it, breaking things into the various sub threads that this topic has spawned for ease of understanding.

Can a naked un-modded valk fly on Mars?

I think this question has pretty much been answered. The first post actually included a good part of the answer:

Martian gravity is about 1/3 that of Earth’s = thus the VF-1 weighs 1/3 less. That means there is 2/3’s less weight to lift (or the wings become 3 times more efficient at lift, etc..)

The Martian atmosphere is only 1% as dense as Earth’s = I’m not sure of the fluid dynamics, but what I understand is that friction will be substantially reduced. Meaning that at the same thrust levels, the VF-1 will fly faster than on Earth. I’m not sure how it effects lift.

Nevertheless, the link to the NASA Mars plane indicates that there is real world science to support the Martian atmosphere being able to provide lift to winged aircraft. Note that the wing-surface area of the NASA plane is large compared to the fuselage (and the VF-1’s is small compared to its fuselage.) The posts on the Blackbird and U-2 support that winged aircraft can fly in such an environment. I read that as meaning the VF-1 has piss-poor maneuverability (without thruster veneers) – as it is either flying too fast to turn sharply, or very slow with sluggish movements.

Even in gerwalk and battroid modes, this slow maneuverability problem would be present. Of course, this is offset by the veneer thrusters… (whatever their effectiveness. Please keep in mind that the VF-1 is thrust-vectored – so with a high angle of attack (of the wings, and the overall fuselage, to maximize lift) combined with vectored thrust, the VF-1 could probably fly effectively (though it would be nose-up, and for the large part blind to targets directly ahead – though sensors would compensate for this.)

Moving on…

Valkyrie engines

i mean, normal jet fuels wouldn't have worked on the VF0's to begin with even a AV-8B Harrier jumpjet has to refuel after a vertical takeoff! it burns most of its fuel just jumping!

so i wonder what fuel was used...

The VF-0 takes on some of the properties of the VF-1 when it goes underwater. Page 014-015 of “Tenjin Hidetaka’s Valkyries†book has a VF-0B with ‘Space Proving Wing’ stenciled on the engine nacelles. That implies that the VF-0 is space worthy – which means that the engines are designed for use in space. Therefore, an internal oxygen load needs to be carried (the ‘few minutes’ that Shin claimed the VF-0 can operate underwater for.) IMHO, additional oxygen for the engines is carried in FAST packs (or drop tanks) when it is used in space…

So, the VF-0 is probably using standard jet fuel mixed with (internally carried) oxygen.

And jet engines can actually stall as well, it's called a compressor stall. The blades in a jet turbine are just wings turned sideways and spinning in a circle, and just like normal wings under the right conditions they can stop producing lift cutting off air flow through the engine and shutting it down. I don't see any reason why the same thing couldn't happen to a Valkyrie's thermonuclear turbines.

The compressor part of the engine is at the front of the engine. Therefore, it all depends where the reactant fuel is added when the front of the engine is closed (for space use, etc.). If the reactant fuel can only be added inside the ‘hot’ part of the engine, than compressor stall isn’t a problem. (If the stall shows up in atmospheric flight, it’s possible to simply fill the engine with reactant fuel until the compressor starts working properly again.)

Gravity

The gravity mines did affect all the small fighting mecha – but, as was pointed out, on such a small level, that there was no noticeable effect.

There's no gravity in space, thus no need for wing lift.

There’s lots of gravity in space. It all depends on the masses, distances, and speeds involved. We are probably being affected by the gravity of all of the different stars in the sky, but as they are so far away, and we are so small, there is little to no effect. The only time it gets to be a problem is when our star passes near another star, and the other star’s gravity knocks objects in the Oort cloud out of their stable orbit and sends them towards the inner Solar system.

As there’s no atmosphere in space, wing-lift is impossible to achieve and movement is entirely generated by thrusters.

WATER and PRESSURE

No matter what, a VF-1 in water will be slower in water than in the air (due to water resistance/friction.) How it moves is the same as elsewhere, but I think the force of the water passing over the flaps on the wings may overcome then (eg: break them) and a VF-1 would have low maneuverability at best.

The underwater mission of VF-X2 supports this.

The VF-1 also has an operational underwater depth of 100 m. So sooner or later external pressure will overcome it.

http://macross.anime.net//mecha/united_nat.../vf1/index.html

As the VF-1 is able to go underwater, I don’t think that water getting inside of it is a problem (either watertight hatches or OTEC parts are extremely durable and robust.)

As the VF-1 is designed as a space fighter, going into a 0 pressure environment isn’t a problem – until micrometeorites hit and other small holes and cracks appear in the pressurized compartment (the cockpit only?) Though, the pilot is in a pressure suit, so it’s only a problem if the pilot’s suit is penetrated. Of course we never hear about that in Macross (the external armour stops micrometeorites them?)

ARMOUR

It's pretty obvious from the animation that the Valk is rather lightly armored.

I don’t know how much we can go on the animation for ‘reality.’ Let’s face it, the Destroids are heavily armoured, yet they are usually one-hit-instant-death when they are seen in combat; whereas the hero VFs survive multiple hits at closer ranges.

Anyhow, I leave this to be explained away by OTEC and anime physics (specifically the hero-defense upgrade.)

[GrimlockCW]

The VF-0 takes on some of the properties of the VF-1 when it goes underwater. Page 014-015 of “Tenjin Hidetaka’s Valkyries†book has a VF-0B with ‘Space Proving Wing’ stenciled on the engine nacelles. That implies that the VF-0 is space worthy – which means that the engines are designed for use in space. Therefore, an internal oxygen load needs to be carried (the ‘few minutes’ that Shin claimed the VF-0 can operate underwater for.) IMHO, additional oxygen for the engines is carried in FAST packs (or drop tanks) when it is used in space…

yar, but like i mentioned, the AV8 has to refuel soon after a vert takeoff, it costs a LOT of fuel to manage such a heavy lift, normal fuels would burn off to fast for the VF0's uses.

you do have a point on the oxygen fed system, as if it used a rocket fuel it wouldn't only last a few minutes underwater, unless it was in referance to an overheat time having the intakes shutoff and cutting back on internal cooling.

on the armor thing, mayhap the Zentran just have much stronger skin/muscle strength than humans, i mean, Veffidas pryed open a blast door with her bare hands!

Edited July 23, 2006 by GrimlockCW

[JB0]

The Martian atmosphere is only 1% as dense as Earth’s = I’m not sure of the fluid dynamics, but what I understand is that friction will be substantially reduced.  Meaning that at the same thrust levels, the VF-1 will fly faster than on Earth.  I’m not sure how it effects lift.

It does very bad things to lift. As I understand it, lift's more or less a direct function of how much air is going over the wing.

Hence why the U2 needs huge wings and the Blackbird needs huge speed. There's just not enough air for lift without special solutions.

Even in gerwalk and battroid modes, this slow maneuverability problem would be present. 

GERWALK should be less affected than fighter. Probably even see a performance boost.

It benefits more from reduced drag and gravity. Doesn't hurt a lot from lost lift, unless I'm mistaken.

Battroid is pretty much guaranteed a performance gain, because it doesn't rely on lift for ANYTHING. All it has is reduced drag and reduced gravity, which both benefit it(assuming the computer is programmed for environments other than space and Earth).

  Please keep in mind that the VF-1 is thrust-vectored – so with a high angle of attack (of the wings, and the overall fuselage, to maximize lift) combined with vectored thrust, the VF-1 could probably fly effectively (though it would be nose-up, and for the large part blind to targets directly ahead – though sensors would compensate for this.)

Hmmm... I wonder if the head turret can be left down in fighter mode.

It isn't good for aerodynamics, but there's a serious sensor advantage.

ARMOUR

It's pretty obvious from the animation that the Valk is rather lightly armored.

I don’t know how much we can go on the animation for ‘reality.’  Let’s face it, the Destroids are heavily armoured, yet they are usually one-hit-instant-death when they are seen in combat; whereas the hero VFs survive multiple hits at closer ranges.

Does anyone but me feel sorry for that one Defender?

His explosion gets recycled so many diffrent times, and all anyone ever says about it is "Look! Orguss Valkyrie!"

Anyhow, I leave this to be explained away by OTEC and anime physics (specifically the hero-defense upgrade.)

418499[/snapback]

Good ol' willpower armor.

Pr'ly explains why Britai could rip the Valk apart so easily, too. Hikaru was scared pretty effectively at that point. Was bad enough they spaced Britai and he came back, he re-entered with a 1-hit kill on Kakizaki, then launched immediatly into a brawl with Hikaru. Hikaru's hero defense was probably at negative by the time Britai threw him into the wall.

[sketchley]

you do have a point on the oxygen fed system, as if it used a rocket fuel it wouldn't only last a few minutes underwater, unless it was in referance to an overheat time having the intakes shutoff and cutting back on internal cooling.

418519[/snapback]

I forgot to mention this - it is noted in the YF-19 (and applies to the VF-19, YF-21, and VF-22, possibly earlier VFs as well) that atmosphere is used in the cooling process of the engine. The compendium goes so far as to state that maximum thrust for those super-engines is limited when the air intakes are closed.

So yes, the VF-0 may have it's underwater activity time limited due to the heat issue (I would presume that the coldness of space is used to cool when the VF-0 is in space, and that the super-engines of the YF-19 et al overheat simple due to heat being produced faster than whatever cooling takes place.

I really have no idea what fuel is used in the VF-0. It may be a unique one, as the engines in the VF-0 are special (overtuned, contain OTEC, etc.).

Hmmm... I wonder if the head turret can be left down in fighter mode.

It isn't good for aerodynamics, but there's a serious sensor advantage.

418525[/snapback]

We've seen the VF-0 do it (and doesn't the VF-1 do it too?) No matter what, in the atmosphere of Mars, leaving the head down shouldn't be a problem - but the gun pod has got to be moved. Maybe it's a gerwalk only thing?

Good points on the increased benefits for the gerwalk and battroid. I guess their use in the episode comes down to lack of real science knowledge in the animators, and the 'cool-factor' of jet mode.

Edited July 23, 2006 by sketchley

[VF5SS]

We see Hikaru drop the head turret in "Love Drifts Away" in order to manually cut a hole in a wall to free Misa.

[GrimlockCW]

We see Hikaru drop the head turret in "Love Drifts Away" in order to manually cut a hole in a wall to free Misa.

418589[/snapback]

that was in Gerwalk though wasn't it?

i canna remember

[VF5SS]

It was in GERWALK but it showed that it could physically do it while the arms were still retracted. I'm sure if Max's use of the head turret in DYRL had the neck extending at all but it does move out of it's underbelly socket.

[GrimlockCW]

It was in GERWALK but it showed that it could physically do it while the arms were still retracted. I'm sure if Max's use of the head turret in DYRL had the neck extending at all but it does move out of it's underbelly socket.

418688[/snapback]

ahh keypoint there, i forgot bout the arms being up in that scene... its been to long and i never got to see it all (hell i never even watched roblowdrek) bah

[Kelsain]

It was in GERWALK but it showed that it could physically do it while the arms were still retracted. I'm sure if Max's use of the head turret in DYRL had the neck extending at all but it does move out of it's underbelly socket.

418688[/snapback]

ahh keypoint there, i forgot bout the arms being up in that scene... its been to long and i never got to see it all (hell i never even watched roblowdrek) bah

418790[/snapback]

Actually, Hikaru had his arms blown off by a missile strike in the middle of battle. (Well, his Valk's arms...) The blast knocked him out and when he came to, he was entering atmosphere. So he migh have been in "FULL" Gerwalk mode when he used the head lasers.

Edited July 24, 2006 by Kelsain

[KingNor]

gravity on mars is 1/3 earth. making the valky 1/3rd as heavy as it is on earth.

but the 1% atmosphere is the main problem, the wings gain no advantage fromt here being 1/3 gravity because with 1% atmosphere the wings "lift" is reduced to 1% that of earth.

so in simple terms, lets say the valk weighs 100 and the valks wings lift 100. on earth 100 weight - 100 lift = fly. there is enough lift for all the weight

on mars the valk weighs 33.3 and only lifts 1.

33.3 weight - 1 lift = no fly. there isn't enough lift for even the reduced weight

in space the valk has no weight, only mass. so it moves by shooting mass out the back. thats fine.

but on mars the valk has weight. it needs to stay up. so unless its goes REAL FAST, it's not going to fly very well. well actually its not going to fly well anyway, it needs to go REAL FAST to fly at all.

Edited July 24, 2006 by KingNor

[GrimlockCW]

gravity on mars is 1/3 earth. making the valky 1/3rd as heavy as it is on earth.

but the 1% atmosphere is the main problem, the wings gain no advantage fromt  here being 1/3 gravity because with 1% atmosphere the wings "lift" is reduced to 1% that of earth.

so in simple terms, lets say the valk weighs 100 and the valks wings lift 100. on earth 100 weight - 100 lift = fly.  there is enough lift for all the weight

on mars the valk weighs 33.3 and only lifts 1.

33.3 weight - 1 lift = no fly.  there isn't enough lift for even the reduced weight

in space the valk has no weight, only mass.  so it moves by shooting mass out the back.  thats fine.

but on mars the valk has weight.  it needs to stay up.  so unless its goes REAL FAST, it's not going to fly very well.    well actually its not going to fly well anyway,  it needs to go REAL FAST to fly at all.

418832[/snapback]

i think we established this...

[ghostryder]

What was the topic of this thread again?

[JB0]

gravity on mars is 1/3 earth. making the valky 1/3rd as heavy as it is on earth.

but the 1% atmosphere is the main problem, the wings gain no advantage fromt  here being 1/3 gravity because with 1% atmosphere the wings "lift" is reduced to 1% that of earth.

so in simple terms, lets say the valk weighs 100 and the valks wings lift 100. on earth 100 weight - 100 lift = fly.  there is enough lift for all the weight

on mars the valk weighs 33.3 and only lifts 1.

33.3 weight - 1 lift = no fly.  there isn't enough lift for even the reduced weight

in space the valk has no weight, only mass.  so it moves by shooting mass out the back.  thats fine.

but on mars the valk has weight.  it needs to stay up.  so unless its goes REAL FAST, it's not going to fly very well.    well actually its not going to fly well anyway,  it needs to go REAL FAST to fly at all.

418832[/snapback]

It can shoot mass out the bottom to counteract the weight, enabling it to fly at speeds that would otherwise stall it. We just don't know how long it can do this.

And atmospheric density varies with altitude. Mar's air density at low altitudes(where the fighting in Bye-Bye Mars seemed to take place) is 10x that of the 30000-meter Earth altitude that the VF-1 is OFFICIALLY flyable in at high mach(but ONLY at high mach, unless thrusters are used to augment lift).