Aircraft Vs Thread 3

[Warmaker]

Yep.

A powerful, modern Navy allows world wide projection of power.

China's strength of the army and air force is good. But the Navy is the biggest detriment and what limits them to a regional power.

I understand China is trying to remedy the Naval deficiency, but right now they're gearing the fixes to even give themselves a chance of getting into Taiwan.

[kalvasflam]

All of which (David's statements) points to the fact that strategically, China is just not as likely to take the gloves off against the US. The big sore point right now: Taiwan is nothing but bluster at the end of the day, only a lunatic would ever even contemplating a military action there. The US has implied that it will come to Taiwan's aid as well. Again, all of it is talk. In that situation, there is no winner at all, only a collective group of losers if a shooting war starts.

Everyone stands to lose a ton of money if there was ever a shooting war between China and the US. Any true communist (in China) would know this, and would go to great length to avoid this. After all, you don't put your country on the fast track to riches, and then deliberately derail yourselves in the process. In the long run, the real threat from China is not military, it's economical. There isn't much of an arms race right now either, it's just catch up. No real concern for a few decades on the military front.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

All the money and building in the world won't allow you to just leap-frog past a few decades of naval development, and get the training and experience necessary to come even close to any large, modern navy.

Exactly! The PLAN's expertise in Carrier Ops right now is not even at the USN's 1945 level. They need to catch up on 60 years, with no Korea/Vietnam/Iraq etc war experience along the way to test them as well.

I think the US military brains' know how big the gap is. But they have to harp on every little thing the PLA does to grab more funding. Like how they played up the F-15s' 'losing' to the Su-30MKIs' to make an excuse for more FA-22s'.

[kung flu]

To be honest, the following sentence from the link posted earlier sends the shivers down my spine far more than the Chinese testing an anti-satellite capability.

"In October, President George W. Bush signed an order asserting the United States' right to deny adversaries access to space for hostile purposes"

To me as a non-American it sounds like Bush is trying to grab all of space for himself by preventing others access. Not sure that even the US has the right to prevent others access to space.

Not trying to get political or off topic. I'm usually very pro-American, but that sentence honestly disturbed me.

Anyway, back to our regular discussion about pointy things with wings.

Graham

I agree with what your saying, the US is also claiming wanting to preserve "PEACEFUL USE OF SPACE", but they have so may spy satellites, more than any country in the world, which is why they're concerned about China's anti-satellite capability, spying isn't exactly peaceful either, though every country is at it.

[Knight26]

The President's assertion was pretty broad and is pretty much universally laughed at for its stupidity. As stated pretty much every super power has a spy sat, which can be seen as hostile. Basically what the president was trying to say was the denial of access for the deployment of weapons. Again a stupid thing to say because there really is no way to control that.

[F-ZeroOne]

Heres a link that will probably please a fair few people - some lovely "What Might Have Been" videos of the true ATF winner [1], the YF-23:

http://www.patricksaviation.com/videos/tags/yf23

Thanks to the Key Publishing forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/forumdisplay.php?f=5) for the link.

[1] In our hearts and minds, anyway.

[kung flu]

As stated pretty much every super power has a spy sat, which can be seen as hostile.

Every super power as in the USA, since they are the only super power in the world, use to be two when the USSR was around. China is catching up though.

[Knight26]

Hmm a short list of who has spy sats:

USA, UK, CIS (Russia), China, Japan, Germany, France...

[kung flu]

Hmm a short list of who has spy sats:

USA, UK, CIS (Russia), China, Japan, Germany, France...

I think you misunderstood what I was saying, I know many countries have spy sats, but the USA is the only remaining Super Power since the collapse of the USSR. After WW2, UK and other European countries are now no longer super powers. They are just known as "Powers" while USA is "Super Power". Something I learned when i was in school, its something to do with a country's wealth, resources and military strength. My country UK use to have the British Empire and because of that it was classed as a super power before WW2, but after WW2 it lost the empire and its wealth, so it just became a power.

Edited January 24, 2007 by kung flu

[Noyhauser]

The significance of the Chinese ASAT test isn't really that China developed the capability: Actually its been suspected for quite some time that they had been working on an effective ASAT system, and it caused senior US security officials concern. Thats a good part of the reason why the Bush Administration has been making stronger statements in the past about maintaining U.S. space dominance. Now with the exceptions of some Darpa stuff, and studies, the U.S. has not really moved to develop anything really concrete with the exception 1980s program. They have also been under pressure from European Allies not to push such a system, because of the 1967 Outer Space treaty. Granted you might not see ASAT as any different, but spy satellites have always been accepted; Corona far predated the 67 treaty, and benign use of space for military purposes were always accepted. Developing the technology to knock satellites out of the sky has been considered somewhat offsides though, particularly in the 1990s when the commercial side of space has really taken off. Space debris has become a serious problem, and there is a very strong economic incentive not to develop weapons of this type. Ballistic Missile Defence is one thing, its tough to argue against that capability because its essentially tied to the defence of a country. But having the ability to knock satellites out of the sky is another, because that can be a very effective offensive weapon, and it can cause damage to the space environment.

The test sorta throws the wrench into the whole attempts to keep a lid on the weaponization of space issue. the US can now honestly claim that a threat exists, and the 67 treaty, and this might be another nail in the coffin into that treaty. Now the U.S. has a very clear reason to resume development their own capabilities of this type.

Edited January 24, 2007 by Noyhauser

[kung flu]

I don't think any country should have dominance over space or the planet for that matter and the USA has set its self up in that position, though I've got nothing against the US it's whether they use that position responsibly that matters and the same goes to other emerging super powers. Like i said in a previous post the ASAT test by China is just communist propaganda, a show of force to the world and to its ever increasingly unhappy population towards the communist government.

Edited January 24, 2007 by kung flu

[Mislovrit]

Again, all of it is talk. In that situation, there is no winner at all, only a collective group of losers if a shooting war starts.

Mistaken thinking, as there will be a winner in a shooting even if it is a pyrrhic victory.

Everyone stands to lose a ton of money if there was ever a shooting war between China and the US.

Similar thing said been said about Germany before WWI.

Any true communist (in China) would know this, and would go to great length to avoid this. After all, you don't put your country on the fast track to riches, and then deliberately derail yourselves in the process.

After the Korean and Vietnam Wars, Chinese communists have proven they'll do just that to advance the communist cause.

In the long run, the real threat from China is not military, it's economical.

Chinese threat is the military, as with economics they have to compete with other countries in skilled and unskilled fields. With their track record with dealing with foreign companies doesn't inspire them to stick around when they find a cheaper and more secure places elsewhere to go to.

There isn't much of an arms race right now either, it's just catch up. No real concern for a few decades on the military front.

Chinese are very much in the arms race selling their military hardware. Edited January 24, 2007 by Mislovrit

[Mislovrit]

Summary of a thread I'm reading on another forum:

The key to China is the ocean. The Himalayas both protect them from attack, and make it hard for them to attack anyone else on land.

China procession of part of Kashmir, border disputes with India and other central Asian countries, need for oil and other resources they have an very active interest in the region.

And there's little point/interest in going after Russia anyways. (that'd just help the US's position)

Russian Far East is a smorgasbord of untapped resources including oil, and as well of plenty of real estate for the overcrowded China set it's sights on. Iirc most of Russia's nuke arensal is positioned along the Sino-Russian border should China takes an overt move toward them.

[Mislovrit]

back to topic for a sec, and I don't recall seeing this posted yet.

Shamelssly copied from Troop Carrying Apaches!, Novel RM Way of reaching the battlefield... thread.

'Extraordinary heroism' of helicopter rescue bid

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml...7/wheroes17.xml

By Tim Hall

Last Updated: 1:38am GMT 18/01/2007

Four Royal Marines flew into a battle zone clinging to the outside of helicopter gunships in a bid to rescue a fallen comrade, the Ministry of Defence has revealed.

L/Cpl Ford: Marines volunteer for 'heroic' rescue mission

L/Cpl Ford: Comrades did not know he had been killed

Unwilling to leave behind one of their number following a retreat, the commandos strapped themselves to the small stabiliser wings of two Apache helicopters and returned into the midst of a fierce gunfight with the Taliban in southern Afghanistan.

Details of the unprecedented rescue attempt were revealed as the MoD pieced together the final hours of fallen hero L/Cpl Matthew Ford.

L/Cpl Ford, 30, of 45 Commando Royal Marines, took part in a 200-soldier assault on a Taliban fort in Helmand province.

Following an intense gun and mortar battle, the commandos were forced back. When they realised L/Cpl Ford was missing, four soldiers volunteered to return.

Three Apaches were available for the mission, but the 200mph helicopters have no room inside for passengers. The soldiers made the snap decision to travel on the outside of two of the armour-plated aircraft, with a third helicopter providing covering fire.

The men flew right back into the gun battle, landing both inside and outside the enemy fort in the search for L/Cpl Ford.

They eventually found and retrieved the body of the section leader who had been killed by enemy fire.

The unnamed soldiers won high praise for the rescue attempt and for managing to return L/Cpl Ford’s body to base.

L/Col Rory Bruce, a UK Task Force spokesman, said the heroic mission had been a “leap into the unknownâ€.

“This is believed to be the first time UK forces have ever tried this type of rescue mission,†he said.

Apache Helicopter in Afghanistan: Marines volunteer for 'heroic' rescue mission

An Apache helicopter similar to the ones used in the rescue mission in Helmand

“It was an extraordinary tale of heroism and bravery of our airmen, soldiers and marines who were all prepared to put themselves back into the line of fire to rescue a fallen comrade.

“And it was with great sadness they later found their brother-in-arms had been killed in action.â€

L/Cpl Ford was the only fatality sustained by the UK Task Force during the battle on Monday. Four men were injured and are in a stable condition.

Friends and family yesterday paid tribute to “gentle giant†L/Cpl Ford, who had recently been thinking about leaving the service to settle down with a family.

His mother Joan, who lives at the family home in Immingham, Lincolnshire, said: “We are all devastated by the news of Mathew’s death. He was a larger than life character who lived his life to the full.

“He was a wonderful son to me and brother to Thomas and Scott and was looking forward to his future with Ina [his fiancee]. His love for life and his ability to make everyone laugh will always be with us.â€

L/Cpl Ford joined the Royal Marines in 2001. After training in Lympstone, Devon, where he earned the coveted Green Beret. L/Cpl Ford's commanding officer Lt Col Duncan Dewar RM said the serviceman’s “professionalism, reliability, and selflessness as well as his sharp wit marked him out from the crowdâ€.

[HoveringCheesecake]

Woohoo for that edit function!

Here's a video where you can kind of tell that there's guys on the wings... kind of.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=d03858b562

[T.V.]

Just a quick video plug.

What do you do when your F-15 loses an entire wing in a mid-air collision?

It's easy, you just land...

Edited January 24, 2007 by T.V.

[Nied]

Just a quick video plug.

What do you do when your F-15 loses an entire wing in a mid-air collision?

It's easy, you just land...

No offense T.V. you're new and probably didn't know, but that's the fourth or fifth time that story has been posted in one of the incarnations of the Aircraft vs Super Thread. We know. It's a testament to how much lift the Eagle gets from its fuselage that it was able land safely.

[kalvasflam]

Mistaken thinking, as there will be a winner in a shooting even if it is a pyrrhic victory.

Similar thing said been said about Germany before WWI.

After the Korean and Vietnam Wars, Chinese communists have proven they'll do just that to advance the communist cause.

Chinese threat is the military, as with economics they have to compete with other countries in skilled and unskilled fields. With their track record with dealing with foreign companies doesn't inspire them to stick around when they find a cheaper and more secure places elsewhere to go to.

Chinese are very much in the arms race selling their military hardware.

Yes, just like between the a supposed Soviet/US nuclear war, there will be a winner, but if that's winning, I think people would rather do without.

In regards to Korean and Vietnam, that is a bygone era. It was the time of our glorious chairman, well, once he kicked the bucket, let's just say things hadn't been so great between Vietnam and PRC for a while. These border wars and so forth. As for NK, let's face it, NK under Chinese influence a long time ago, they're puppets.

If China's threat is their military, then their weakness as have been pointed out by others is their economy. Their track record is a mindset, win at all cost, nothing wrong with that as long as they're being smart about not committing national suicide (something that would happen in a shooting war) But speaking of the Chinese military, who do they threaten exactly? Please let me know. I'm mystified by your statement.

As for arms race, the analogy is to the US/Soviet arms race, under those context, there is no such thing with China right now. And if you're talking about selling arms, you can pretty easily see who sells the most armaments on the planet, by a large margin, it's the US, followed by the Russians.

Edited January 25, 2007 by kalvasflam

[T.V.]

We know.

D'OH! Should've checked...

[Graham]

the ASAT test by China is just communist propaganda, a show of force to the world and to its ever increasingly unhappy population towards the communist government.

Not sure why people think the Chinese are unhappy. The economy is booming, the standard of living is going up in the cities. There is much more freedom to travel. China is a communist country in name only these days.

Yes, these are still problems with corruption and poverty in rural areas, but things are getting better.

Graham

[Knight26]

Not sure why people think the Chinese are unhappy. The economy is booming, the standard of living is going up in the cities. There is much more freedom to travel. China is a communist country in name only these days.

Yes, these are still problems with corruption and poverty in rural areas, but things are getting better.

Graham

One simple reason why they are unhappy, no freaking women and a whole generation of horny hard up guys. lol, jk

[Graham]

Trust me on this, there are more cute women in China than you can shake a very large stick at. And I do like to shake my stick

Graham

[Noyhauser]

Mistaken thinking, as there will be a winner in a shooting even if it is a pyrrhic victory.

Similar thing said been said about Germany before WWI.

After the Korean and Vietnam Wars, Chinese communists have proven they'll do just that to advance the communist cause.

Chinese threat is the military, as with economics they have to compete with other countries in skilled and unskilled fields. With their track record with dealing with foreign companies doesn't inspire them to stick around when they find a cheaper and more secure places elsewhere to go to.

Chinese are very much in the arms race selling their military hardware.

Sigh.

first off, the whole China as a Wilhelmine power is a highly contestable argument, and only really holds up if you ignore a whole host of factors. China is far more integrated into the world economy than Germany ever was in the post Franco Prussian war period to the First World War. China's growth is highly dependant on external trade, to the extent that its central bank has been willing to buy US bonds to keep the US economy afloat. If China was really a Wilhelmine power it would have tried to bankrupt the United States, and then moved to take over the vacuum.

Your whole point about "Chinese Communists willing to do about anything to advance their cause" is an archaic impression, and belongs more in the 1960s than 2007. Ever since Deng Xiao Ping's economic transformations of the 70s and 80s China has moved away from a command economy, and economic liberalization has continued. To call it an Communist country ignores the reality of the situation. Now if you’re saying that the Communist party was interested in expanding its power, then yes there is an argument to be made there, but that too is questionable. It doesn't seem to be in China's nature to go out and aggressively take over the world. China historically has really never been an expansionist power, its been generally content to stay in its little zone of control and consolidate itself. The great wall is the best example of this. CCP has reacted violently to threats to its security in the past; Korea being the best example. The Formosa issue is a complicated one. China does not see Taiwan as a legitimate country, in their eyes its China, through and through. Its unlikely they’ll move against Japan in the same way because they are not Chinese. China just wants to be left alone and unthreatened. Look at the nature of the buildup, its not really to obtain power projection capabilities, but to defend China against attack.

if you can find this article, its probably the best that shows China's strategic choices.

Getting Asia Wrong

[kung flu]

Not sure why people think the Chinese are unhappy. The economy is booming, the standard of living is going up in the cities. There is much more freedom to travel. China is a communist country in name only these days.

Yes, these are still problems with corruption and poverty in rural areas, but things are getting better.

Graham

I sometimes read the Epoch times, which is banned in China for being anti-Communist. There are a lot of horror stories of whats happening in China about human rights and also high ranking military and ordinary people have renounced the communist party. Which is one of the reasons I think they are unhappy. Another reason is I have Chinese relatives there and they are always complaining about the communist.

Edited January 25, 2007 by kung flu

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I sometimes read the Epoch times, which is banned in China for being anti-Communist. There are a lot of horror stories of whats happening in China about human rights and also high ranking military and ordinary people have renounced the communist party. Which is one of the reasons I think they are unhappy. Another reason is I have Chinese relatives there and they are always complaining about the communist.

Well, we have people in the US always complaining about the Republicans/ Democrats/ Liberals/ Conservatives/Creationists too. The point is that the majority are happy enough not to want to seek to overthrow the govt. There will always be an extremely unhappy minority and a big majority who are unhappy about some things, but not enough to want to take to the streets. Goes for any country.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Trust me on this, there are more cute women in China than you can shake a very large stick at. And I do like to shake my stick

Graham

I second that. You gotta see it to believe it!

*shakes stick*

[David Hingtgen]

Phoenix on an F-15: http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/researc...nixmissile.html

Because it's the cheapest way to go Mach 5.

[Graham]

I wonder how many surplus Phoenix the US Navy has?

Would it not be possible to use them on a F/A-18, or is the missile tooo big and the Hornets radar to crappy?

Hang on though, doesn't the SHornet has some sort of super-duper AESA radar? (can't be bothered to look i up).

Graham

[VF-19]

I wonder how many surplus Phoenix the US Navy has?

Would it not be possible to use them on a F/A-18, or is the missile tooo big and the Hornets radar to crappy?

Hang on though, doesn't the SHornet has some sort of super-duper AESA radar? (can't be bothered to look i up).

Graham

I think the reason is that the missile is too heavy to go onto one of the pylons. That or it can't actually physically connect to the pylons.

[David Hingtgen]

Weight and size is rarely an issue--a filled drop tank weighs more and is larger than any bomb or missile by far.

Radar issues are the main thing---if it wasn't DESIGNED to guide the Phoenix missile, it's not going to be able to.

Physically, the F-15 is using its own center pylon, and a very thin and small adapter, then an F-14 wing-mounted Phoenix pylon.

I'm betting the Phoenix will be dumb-fired by the F-15 with no guidance/signal at all, and will just head on out until it falls into the ocean. They're using it as a readily-available high-speed rocket, nothing more. A giant, very fast bullet would serve just as well if there were any.

As for the Super Hornet and Phoenix replacement---haven't heard anything for a while, I think they're still going for a "Super AMRAAM"---may simply be bigger for a larger motor, or may be a 2-stage boosted model.

[Nied]

The APG-73 currently fitted to both Super and Baby Hornets is widely considered one of the best airborne radars flying today, and the APG-79 currently being retrofitted to Super Hornets is basically the F-22's APG-77 with a smaller Transmit receive array. Neither is crappy. As David said it's more of an issue of compatibility. The APG-79 with it's amazing frequency agility is probably technically capable of being compatible with the Phoenix, but by the time the Navy had gone through the trouble of clearing it on the Rhino, and witting up the fire control software the AIM-120D will be in service and it'll be redundant. AFAIK the AIM-120D is going to be similar to the Meteor but with a more advanced ramjet motor which should give it a little more range, one pretty close to the Phoenix's, but without the dud rate.

[kung flu]

Well, we have people in the US always complaining about the Republicans/ Democrats/ Liberals/ Conservatives/Creationists too. The point is that the majority are happy enough not to want to seek to overthrow the govt. There will always be an extremely unhappy minority and a big majority who are unhappy about some things, but not enough to want to take to the streets. Goes for any country.

Actually there has been a lot of protest and riots happening in China its just that the rest of the world doesn't hear about it, and there is also a power struggle happening right now within the communist party. Again i got this info from the Epoch times.

You must also remember that in a democracy you can complain about your government or speak out against them, without fear of being arrested, and every few years you get to vote for a new government. The Chinese don't have that option, their stuck with the communist and you can't go against them cause it will mean you'll become a enemy of the state.

Edited January 26, 2007 by kung flu

[David Hingtgen]

"Meteor-like" is the last I heard about the long-range AMRAAM too. Hadn't heard about the AIM-120D designation though, is that official/likely? I figured it might get a whole new number, or at least skip a few letters. AIM-154 would be nice and appropriate.

[T.V.]

"Meteor-like" is the last I heard about the long-range AMRAAM too. Hadn't heard about the AIM-120D designation though, is that official/likely? I figured it might get a whole new number, or at least skip a few letters. AIM-154 would be nice and appropriate.

I thought it was going to be a new designation, but I'm not sure.

I've read the AMRAAM+ designation once before...

The Meteor method is the easiest way to get longer legs on the missle without increasing the size (much).

Giving the missle a small rocket booster and a ramjet engine, gives the acceleration of a rocket, with the range of an air ingesting jet engine.

Phoenix missles on an F-15. Blasphemy!

Like David, I'm guessing that the Phoenix will simply fly in a preprogrammed fashion and will not be guided by the mother aircraft, just like the other air launched research vehicles.

The F-15 simple drops it off at the correct altitude, speed and angle.

In a way, it reminds me of the tack on conversion done by the Iranians on their F-14s, fitting them with modified Hawk SAMs.

[Knight26]

I thought it was going to be a new designation, but I'm not sure.

I've read the AMRAAM+ designation once before...

The Meteor method is the easiest way to get longer legs on the missle without increasing the size (much).

Giving the missle a small rocket booster and a ramjet engine, gives the acceleration of a rocket, with the range of an air ingesting jet engine.

Phoenix missles on an F-15. Blasphemy!

Like David, I'm guessing that the Phoenix will simply fly in a preprogrammed fashion and will not be guided by the mother aircraft, just like the other air launched research vehicles.

The F-15 simple drops it off at the correct altitude, speed and angle.

In a way, it reminds me of the tack on conversion done by the Iranians on their F-14s, fitting them with modified Hawk SAMs.

I know something you don't know, damn OPSEC