Aircraft Vs Thread 3

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Yep, the geography dictates who your enemies are. Now, correct me if I'm wrong, to get to the main island, the neighbors would have to somehow transport enough troops over water to be a big threat right? The worst case scenario is a bunch of psychos in small craft all trying to make it across at once. There what is needed is not MBT, cause if these suckers make it ashore, Singapore is in big trouble. What is needed instead is martime assets to blow the suckers out of the water before they land. In this case, those assets would be attack choppers armed with rocket pods and ATGMs, (really good against small craft), back up with a survelliance set up, probably UAVs if possible, and the -16s can be equipped with Penguines to take out larger vessels.

Singapore's best first strike capabilities are aerial. It has range and capability. If they run a land base scenario, it's going to be a nightmare. Singapore tanks (if my understanding of geography is correct) has to be transported over water, then if they land somewhere, they'd have to have a logistical tail to support them. All of which are going to be extremely vulnerable. And what targets can the tanks reach that the -15s and -16s can't? Now, the tanks might be able to do more damage, but they would be hugely exposed all the way through.

Apologies for the detour into non aircraft related territory here. But it's an interesting discussion.

We can make excuses for the detour because we are discussing 'What F-16/F-15s can't do' for this particular question.

OK to answer your question. The water separating Singapore from Country X is very very narrow. There is no space for naval assets in that narrow strip. This is not the English Channel.

However, the main point is again Singapore's size. Even if we can use air assets to blow everything up before they reach the shore, it still leaves us with a very lousy tactical/strategic position because enemy held territory is still well within artillery range (heck, even small arms range!) of our urban areas and military installations. We want to deny the opponent that. And to do that, we need a Buffer Zone to be really secure. To get that Buffer Zone, MBTs are good to have.

Basically, its not just stopping enemy troops from coming ashore. Its also about stopping enemy artillery from hitting the urban areas/airbases etc.

As you said, our best first strike ability is in the air assets. We don't want our air bases to be within RPG/mortar/etc range. Any other prudent army would do the same.

Edited December 26, 2006 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[David Hingtgen]

The tornado in Florida today was direct hit on Embry Riddle, multiple planes destroyed: http://erau.facebook.com/album.php?aid=202...amp;id=39700384

[VF-19]

The tornado in Florida today was direct hit on Embry Riddle, multiple planes destroyed: http://erau.facebook.com/album.php?aid=202...amp;id=39700384

Oh that's no problem. A little bit of duct tape, some superglue, and those planes will be like new!

But seriously, Yikes!

[Coota0]

to get to the main island, the neighbors would have to somehow transport enough troops over water to be a big threat right? The worst case scenario is a bunch of psychos in small craft all trying to make it across at once. There what is needed is not MBT, cause if these suckers make it ashore, Singapore is in big trouble. What is needed instead is martime assets to blow the suckers out of the water before they land. In this case, those assets would be attack choppers armed with rocket pods and ATGMs, (really good against small craft), back up with a survelliance set up, probably UAVs if possible, and the -16s can be equipped with Penguines to take out larger vessels.

The Air support is excellent for them, they Have the F-15Es, F-16s, AH-64Ds, and the F-5s can carry ground attack weapons. In the meantime you dig in at the beach with your AFVs, MBTs and infantry with AT missiles. A defilade gives excellent cover for you tanks and AFVs, with multiple fixed defensive lines to retreat to with your armor. Ideally you would knock out the bad guys before they could ever mount a seaborne invasion. If the bad guys can mount an invasion you would then use your airpower to blow the hell out of the staging area, then use your Apaches and fighters to hit the landing force as they make the crossing, then you back that up at the beach with your infantry and Armor, Armor in defilade would make really great direct fire support againts incoming boats that have already been beat to hell.

How is Singapore set for artillery? Self propelled or towed?

The Arty could be used for counterbattery fire and to shell the incoming boats and infnatry at sea and on the beach.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

The Air support is excellent for them, they Have the F-15Es, F-16s, AH-64Ds, and the F-5s can carry ground attack weapons. In the meantime you dig in at the beach with your AFVs, MBTs and infantry with AT missiles. A defilade gives excellent cover for you tanks and AFVs, with multiple fixed defensive lines to retreat to with your armor. Ideally you would knock out the bad guys before they could ever mount a seaborne invasion. If the bad guys can mount an invasion you would then use your airpower to blow the hell out of the staging area, then use your Apaches and fighters to hit the landing force as they make the crossing, then you back that up at the beach with your infantry and Armor, Armor in defilade would make really great direct fire support againts incoming boats that have already been beat to hell.

How is Singapore set for artillery? Self propelled or towed?

The Arty could be used for counterbattery fire and to shell the incoming boats and infnatry at sea and on the beach.

We got both. Counter battery is an important defence concept due to the reasons in my preceding post.

Again, we can do all the stuff stated in your post and it won't be enough. See my previous post. We need the buffer zone.

[Coota0]

We got both. Counter battery is an important defence concept due to the reasons in my preceding post.

Again, we can do all the stuff stated in your post and it won't be enough. See my previous post. We need the buffer zone.

Not denying the buffer zone, just pointing out that MBTs have defensive uses as well.

[kalvasflam]

We can make excuses for the detour because we are discussing 'What F-16/F-15s can't do' for this particular question.

OK to answer your question. The water separating Singapore from Country X is very very narrow. There is no space for naval assets in that narrow strip. This is not the English Channel.

However, the main point is again Singapore's size. Even if we can use air assets to blow everything up before they reach the shore, it still leaves us with a very lousy tactical/strategic position because enemy held territory is still well within artillery range (heck, even small arms range!) of our urban areas and military installations. We want to deny the opponent that. And to do that, we need a Buffer Zone to be really secure. To get that Buffer Zone, MBTs are good to have.

Basically, its not just stopping enemy troops from coming ashore. Its also about stopping enemy artillery from hitting the urban areas/airbases etc.

As you said, our best first strike ability is in the air assets. We don't want our air bases to be within RPG/mortar/etc range. Any other prudent army would do the same.

Ok, that's a fair explanation. The narrow waterways prevents use of maritime assets. It's not very obvious from the map sometimes the exact distance. But air assets can still be helpful in terms of stopping small crafts from crossing, although not small arms fire. Are the urban areas immediately adjacent to the shores? More importantly, what is the general terrain like on the other side out to about 30 km? That is a good way to understand the best options.

I don't know anything about your neighbor's military capabilities, but how well armed are they in terms of artillery and MBTs? A buffer zone if needed is something that has to be created, probably through MBTs frist (if they can be used easily) then garrisoned with infantry while tanks are withdrawn a bit further back and held as a mobile reserve. That's if it ever can to a conflict.

[David Hingtgen]

Little update from Boeing:

All 787's will have white wings, period. It'll help reflect heat and keep the composites cool. First grey engines, now this. Some airlines will look really weird with that combo. I still don't get the reason for grey engines--Boeing said it'd cut drag, but I've never heard of grey paint having inherently less drag. I could understood if they said no multi-color stripes and logos, as the demarcation line/decal edge DOES create a miniscule amount of drag, but surely if they have "low-drag grey", they could make "low drag white"--that'd cover 95% of paint schemes.

[Lightning]

So we're gonna have low-vis airlines now?? this is getting weird....

[buddhafabio]

well a few benifits i can think of is

1 i dont know specs on how many times airlines can paint before they have to strip the metal bareagian. but every new layer has atleast ppaint ontop of old but may also have primer layer and paint

2 i saw a plane on airliners.net that had peeling paint and that adds drag.

maybe boeing has better paint.

but i am just a baker..... so what do i know.

Edited December 27, 2006 by buddhafabio

[Lynx7725]

But air assets can still be helpful in terms of stopping small crafts from crossing, although not small arms fire. Are the urban areas immediately adjacent to the shores?

Towards the north of SG, quite urbanized for about 10 KM. Yes, immediately adjacent. Direct fire would be quite useful in those situations. Towards the northwest and beyond the 10KM mark, more open but low-lying, and can be flooded during bad weather (like now). Excellent ground for air strikes. Not to mention, to move heavy equipment over the Straits would bottle the forces at two points (unless they want to build their own bridges, which tends to attract attention), which makes it even more obvious.

At its widest, the Straits is 2KM wide. If the hypotheatical enemy is going to come across on small craft, basically those would be sampans -- anything larger would draw fire before you even drop it into the water. I am not going to suggest wasting an airborne 250lb iron bomb on a tiny little sampan...

To answer an earlier question: we are producing our own SP artillery.

Generally speaking, M'sia armed forces aren't held in high esteem but I suppose they are generally ok; equipment appears to be soviet-bloc, with some MiGs and T-series tanks. I expect them to fight, and to be able to use their equipment well. The other side, from Indonesia, is a bit more positive. SG navy should be able to put a dent into any invasion forces, and even with Harpoons, air strikes should put add to the dent. Better, it's harder to get to our airbases from the seaward side, so we should be able to get off more sorties.

Speaking of which, the major problem with air superiority here (and to keep it connected to this thread) is that there are few and mostly well-known airbases in SG to operate from. Those are priority targets, and even though the RSAF does practice highway landings and takeoffs, the sad fact is that a determined attacker from the north can almost certainly take out the air bases AND the backup runways, either through artillery strikes or air strikes.

It would then fall back to the attack choppers to support the ground forces, as they have a smaller footprint and can operate from other locations more easily.

[Lynx7725]

All 787's will have white wings, period. It'll help reflect heat and keep the composites cool.

Huh, strikes me that if you need white paint to keep the composites cool, they are probably on the edge with regards to heat dissipation capabilities. I wonder if we will see an increase in airliners that are grounded because of heat problems.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Are the urban areas immediately adjacent to the shores? More importantly, what is the general terrain like on the other side out to about 30 km? That is a good way to understand the best options.

haha! Answering that question will give you an idea why I keep harping on the buffer zone.

If you shoot a 30km round from the north to the south, your artillery round would splash into the sea! Yup! You heard right. You would have overshot the dang country with a 30km north to south shot.

Does that give you an idea how uncomfortable it is to have enemy held territory that close to all your airbases?

[Coota0]

Speaking of which, the major problem with air superiority here (and to keep it connected to this thread) is that there are few and mostly well-known airbases in SG to operate from. Those are priority targets, and even though the RSAF does practice highway landings and takeoffs, the sad fact is that a determined attacker from the north can almost certainly take out the air bases AND the backup runways, either through artillery strikes or air strikes.

It would then fall back to the attack choppers to support the ground forces, as they have a smaller footprint and can operate from other locations more easily.

Sounds like ya'll need a small carrier (conventinal or otherwise) and some VSTOLs to work with the choppers if ya'll lose your airbases.

Edited December 28, 2006 by Coota0

[David Hingtgen]

A secondary concern for the white wings was hot fuel vapors.

[kalvasflam]

haha! Answering that question will give you an idea why I keep harping on the buffer zone.

If you shoot a 30km round from the north to the south, your artillery round would splash into the sea! Yup! You heard right. You would have overshot the dang country with a 30km north to south shot.

Does that give you an idea how uncomfortable it is to have enemy held territory that close to all your airbases?

Oh, well, it's simple then, what Singapore really needs is not an air force or an army. They need two surplus Ohios with all the fixings. (Pre-SSGN modifications of course).

But one thought, given such a small area, it would almost be wise to invest in some VSTOL aircrafts, the F-35 would be perfect in this case I think. But you better put them on one of the more remote outlying islands.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Oh, well, it's simple then, what Singapore really needs is not an air force or an army. They need two surplus Ohios with all the fixings. (Pre-SSGN modifications of course).

But one thought, given such a small area, it would almost be wise to invest in some VSTOL aircrafts, the F-35 would be perfect in this case I think. But you better put them on one of the more remote outlying islands.

I think there is a lot of hardware which my country can afford to buy and would be nice to have, but there are also political considerations.

In my earlier post, I did emphasize that counter-battery is a very important defence concept. Guess you can see why now.

[joseph]

According to The Times of India, the India Government is finalizing the plans for a stealth fighter of fifth generation. The announcement was done by the India Defense Minister AK Anthony to high officials of the IAF and of HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.).

It would be the definitive step for that India attends financially to Russia for the development of fighter of fifth generation, well-known as PAK KA [ Perspektivnyi Aviatsionnyi Kompleks Frontovoi Aviatsyi - Future Air Complex for Tactical Air Forces]. If there is money and is not delayed the project the fighter it would enter at service at 2017/2018 possibly.

¿Vityaz o Su-47?

[kalvasflam]

Sometimes you have to wonder what the US has in the works in secret. Nobody hears much about the next generation stuff, all the stuff in the open is about UAVs, not much in the way of manned aircraft. Stealth is so 20th century as far as state of the art goes. I wonder what's next.

[eugimon]

boeing beat airbus in sales last year!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070104/ts_al...es_070104174247

[David Hingtgen]

Sales and orders mean nothing, nothing counts until it's actually being built. I'm still waiting for USAirway's 400-aircraft order to be delivered. And TWA's launch order for the A330, and the CO A340 order...

[kalvasflam]

Sales and orders mean nothing, nothing counts until it's actually being built. I'm still waiting for USAirway's 400-aircraft order to be delivered. And TWA's launch order for the A330, and the CO A340 order...

Ouch... asking for a lot... TWA? Aren't they out of business?

True enough though, Boeing has a big backlog, and they've managed to screw up before. Remember the strike in 2005, and the union disputes in the late 90s. Could happen again. And the refuge from MMM is a big question mark. I had friends at 3M who had very nasty things to say about McNerny....

The bottom line is whether Boeing managed to streamline their operations and deliver on time (787 is a big risk right now), and whether this big deal about integrating in new suppliers is actually working out. Success has a thousand fathers, and failure is usually just another orphan.

[David Hingtgen]

That's my point. There are hundreds, thousands of "announced orders" that will never, ever happen. Both Boeing and Airbus. They (and the media) always talk about orders---never deliveries. 500 "orders" with 495 planes actually built and delivered, is a lot better than 600 orders with 450 deliveries.

Part of the problem lately is "little start-up airlines that experience 150% growth in their first 6 months---then expect that to continue and order appropriately". I am not at all exaggerating when I say the average new airliner order press release looks like this:

"Piddly Airlines, a new low-cost carrier which has surged from 4 planes to 6 over the last year, has ordered 115 A320's to fuel their expected growth, with deliveries scheduled from 2010 to 2013".

Never mind that they're gone 3 months later...

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Part of the problem lately is "little start-up airlines that experience 150% growth in their first 6 months---then expect that to continue and order appropriately". I am not at all exaggerating when I say the average new airliner order press release looks like this:

"Piddly Airlines, a new low-cost carrier which has surged from 4 planes to 6 over the last year, has ordered 115 A320's to fuel their expected growth, with deliveries scheduled from 2010 to 2013".

Never mind that they're gone 3 months later...

I am interested. How does the airliner industry work with regard to orders and confirmations and deliveries?

When the customer makes an order, what is the consideration and commitment at that point? Is there a point further down the road when a further contract needs to be signed before the airline is obliged not to back out of the order?

[David Hingtgen]

AFAIK "letters of intent" and "firm orders" are usually confused/merged in reports.

I think an "order" is technically reserving a slot/time on the production line. You could sell it to someone else without penalty--so long as the slot is used, Boeing etc won't care who's using it.

I know planes are built as they're paid for. 10% down to start production to pay for the parts to build it. Pay more as the plane is built. When it's 100% done, you should have paid 100% of the cost.

[kalvasflam]

That's my point. There are hundreds, thousands of "announced orders" that will never, ever happen. Both Boeing and Airbus. They (and the media) always talk about orders---never deliveries. 500 "orders" with 495 planes actually built and delivered, is a lot better than 600 orders with 450 deliveries.

Part of the problem lately is "little start-up airlines that experience 150% growth in their first 6 months---then expect that to continue and order appropriately". I am not at all exaggerating when I say the average new airliner order press release looks like this:

"Piddly Airlines, a new low-cost carrier which has surged from 4 planes to 6 over the last year, has ordered 115 A320's to fuel their expected growth, with deliveries scheduled from 2010 to 2013".

Never mind that they're gone 3 months later...

But getting back onto the order books, it seems that Airbus is starting off the year on a good note.

http://news.airwise.com/story/view/1167996652.html

I've personally never heard of AirAsia, not nearly as famous as the other airlines in SE Asia, but holy smoke, 200 airplanes? Gawd, are they trying to start their own air force? Can you imagine if they went bankrupt all of a sudden. But somebody in Boeing must be gnashing their teeth at this order. Even if it is just A320s.

As for paymenht, I always thought there is some fee to reserve the slots, but a majority of the cash is paid on delivery. But then again, I'm no expert on this. But what happens if an act of God occurs in the middle of production and the airplane is smashed. Is the company then only responsible for delivery the percentage of the plane that's incomplete? Just a random thought

[David Hingtgen]

Wiki says Air Asia currently has 14 A320's, and 19 737's. (bigger than I thought) And they have 130 A320's on order, possibly 200. Wow, I didn't expect to be proven right only 24 hours after I made that post about "smaller airlines making hyper-optimistic orders 10x their current fleet size".

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Air Asia was one of the first budget airlines in SEA. Its doing very well right now. They aren't some 2 year old or 6 month old flash in the pan. But 200 planes still sounds fishy.

Their CEO is a maverick much like Branson.

[Lightning]

for you WWII buffs, there's currently a B-17 and a B-24 sitting at my local airport hangar that does restorations....I'll get ya'll some pics in the next couple days.

[kalvasflam]

Air Asia was one of the first budget airlines in SEA. Its doing very well right now. They aren't some 2 year old or 6 month old flash in the pan. But 200 planes still sounds fishy.

Their CEO is a maverick much like Branson.

200 planes though... ok, 100 to be absolutely fair, the rest on some type of options from what I remember. But they've got like five or six smaller companies under the same name. This must be some huge expansion. I can see places like India going big. But what other local carriers are in SEA right now? Does Jetstar count?

But nontheless a gigantic win for Airbus

Edited January 6, 2007 by kalvasflam

[joseph]

Mig-35 pics.

[T.V.]

Or.. Formerly Known As MiG-29M2.

Those Russian still love to throw around designations.

Though, this plane is actually very promising.

It makes the Fulcrum design relevant again, and is a reasonably cost-effective alternative to the Typhoon and Rafale.

And with the OVT system it's a killer dogfighter, endurance and combat persistence notwithstanding.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Man, they still have not moved the control stick yet!

[Knight26]

I just creamed my shorts looking at that.

[joseph]

Man, they still have not moved the control stick yet!

The F-18E/F and Typhoon have the control stick in the center still. The Mig-35 continues being a 4++ generation fighter, now include the Zhuk-MAE "first russian radar AESA in development".

F-18E/F:

Typhoon: