Aircraft Vs Thread 3

[Warmaker]

It's a reputation you want your aircraft to have, but not have to test yourself

It's like the Martin & Baker Fan Club for Ejection Seats.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Yeah, you do see B-17s with big pieces missing. Rudder, wings, etc. Only the Grumman Iron Works seems to have a more hefty reputation in getting planes home.

Not that I advocate leaving bits and pieces of your plane in enemy territory, mind you...

I suppose MD can claim that too due to that single Isreali hotshot.

[Noyhauser]

Big Boeing bombers have traditionally done well with having only a stub of the fin remaining---you can find very similar B-17 pics. Strange that the JAL 747 did so much worse, but I think it had its controls frozen as well, which doomed it.

Apparently the decompression ripped all four of the plane's hydrolic lines, rendering them inoperable.

[Apollo Leader]

Pic of the day: Never let someone tell you turbulence is just an annoyance. It has ripped apart large jets in mid-air, and severely damaged even more.

In the case of this B-52 if I remember correctly, they were intentionally looking for turbulent conditions as part of an actual test (whether it had to do specifically with how the B-52 would handle or if this was a more general test I don't know). They found turbulance alright!

As for what kept it stable, besides what little tail surface was left, the pylons mounting the engines and weapons (looks like they were carrying Hound Dogs) along with the tall, slabby fusealge probably helped in forward stability.

[Lynx7725]

In the case of this B-52 if I remember correctly, they were intentionally looking for turbulent conditions as part of an actual test (whether it had to do specifically with how the B-52 would handle or if this was a more general test I don't know). They found turbulance alright!

What happened to the airframe? Scrapped or returned to service after repairs?

[Apollo Leader]

What happened to the airframe? Scrapped or returned to service after repairs?

I think it was fixed. It was just the tail I think that was damaged.

[buddhafabio]

then later was dewinged and scrapped

[Warmaker]

The mention of Boeing made me think of WWII bombers and I looked them up on Wikipedia, starting with the B-24 Liberator.

The B-24 page on Wikipedia has a tragic picture, here. You just know none of the aircrew will get to bail out with this type of damage, but according to the caption, a waist gunner was thrown clear of the bomber and survived.

I recall seeing clips of another B-24 getting hit and quickly going down. It looked like the camera was so close from a higher up Liberator that you could clearly see the pilot & copilot. Next thing you know, a quick flame shoots out near the left wing's root and the left wing snaps off. The B-24 then immediately dives and begins to spiral, along with all the still-living aircrew.

There's enough footage of catastrophic damage of various aircraft in combat from WWII, single engined or not. A bad way to die, IMO.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Warmaker

[Lynx7725]

I recall seeing clips of another B-24 getting hit and quickly going down. It looked like the camera was so close from a higher up Liberator that you could clearly see the pilot & copilot. Next thing you know, a quick flame shoots out near the left wing's root and the left wing snaps off. The B-24 then immediately dives and begins to spiral, along with all the still-living aircrew.

Funny that you should mention this, but I recently reinstalled MS CFS... 2 I think, the Pacific version. Flew a few free-flights with a Shiden-Kai vs. B-24s.

Generally what happens is that I'd spiral down from on top and then drill through the wing root with the 4 20mm cannons. Wing would then snap off, inboard from inner engine, and then the B-24 would roll on its axis and then rapidly pitched downwards. Not many 'chutes at this point, but I typically wasn't in any position to count numbers.

I got to a point where it almost invariably happen once or twice per flight of 8 B-24s.. definitely looks like a weak point on the B-24. A few times, I'd blow the tail straight off, but that's comparatively rare. Since you tend to go for engine hits on the big bombers, sawing the wing off with automatic fire is fairly common for me. Doesn't tend to happen when I engage B-25s -- those seems to be more resistant to fire.

[Lynx7725]

Opps, double post. Work proxy messing up.

Edited April 17, 2007 by Lynx7725

[Warmaker]

Funny that you should mention this, but I recently reinstalled MS CFS... 2 I think, the Pacific version. Flew a few free-flights with a Shiden-Kai vs. B-24s.

Generally what happens is that I'd spiral down from on top and then drill through the wing root with the 4 20mm cannons. Wing would then snap off, inboard from inner engine, and then the B-24 would roll on its axis and then rapidly pitched downwards. Not many 'chutes at this point, but I typically wasn't in any position to count numbers.

I got to a point where it almost invariably happen once or twice per flight of 8 B-24s.. definitely looks like a weak point on the B-24. A few times, I'd blow the tail straight off, but that's comparatively rare. Since you tend to go for engine hits on the big bombers, sawing the wing off with automatic fire is fairly common for me. Doesn't tend to happen when I engage B-25s -- those seems to be more resistant to fire.

I swear I heard of a few places that mentioned that although the B-24 was more advanced than the B-17 it just wasn't as sturdy.

I have seen many, many pictures and wartime footage of B-17 Flying Fortresses limping back to an airfield with massive battle damage. But I haven't seen any for B-24 Liberators. I'm sure they're out there, but I haven't seen any.

As for CFS2, I'm an avid fan of several WWII flight sims: European Air War and IL-2 top my prop list, but mostly EAW due to the outstanding campaigns.

I began the war as a Major in the Luftwaffe's JG26 flying Bf109E's. Our squadron eventually transitioned into the formidable Fw190's. By early 1944, I was an Oberst (Colonel) and the CO of my squadron, as well as being an Experten with 80 or so victories. We had a alert to launch from our airfield in France to intercept another American formation of B-17's. I launched all available aircraft (12), got directions from ground control, climbed, then went for an intercept. Our angle was good, we were far ahead of the massive bomber formation. The escorts of Thunderbolts trailing aft of the bombers and just more than 1000 ft above. I asked ground if we will have assistance. I got the typical Luftwaffe answer by 1944. None. "Great" I thought. Still, we had great position. I elected to climb 2k feet higher than the bombers, turn into them, and go for frontal dives. We still had a well experienced group of pilots so they will make use of the short amount of time we get to aim and fire our 20mm cannons due to the fast dive. The goal with the Focke Wulf's powerful armament was the bomber cockpits. I intended to have our squadron continue to dive and break away since the American Thunderbolt escorts were at least a full fighter group compared to our single '190 squadron. Our diving speed should keep the Jugs off our tails.

We closed in, and the sections assigned their targets. Once it was all sorted, I ordered the attack to start and I dove first. We had it perfect, the classical "out of the sun" and "bandits 12 o'clock high" type of deal for attacking fighters. The American gunners were surprised and the amount of fire wasn't as strong compared to a rear approach. Due to the surprise, their defensive fire came up rather late. I had a Flying Fortress lined up very well and fired off my 4 cannons, obliterating the cockpit with a big flash. I proceeded to dive through the bomber formation but nothing else popped up in front of me.

The very short attack I recall had several important messages. There were a number of kills by the squadron against the bombers, I think we got 4 total as I listened to our traffic at the time. When my dive carried me out of the bomber formation, I continued to lead the squadron through the dive for escape. I looked back to see how things were going. I saw several B-17's going down. I then saw another bright flash and had a bad feeling. One of my pilots it seems had accidentally slashed his 190 through a wing of a B-17. The poor guy was panicking in his doomed fighter with a dead engine and missing wing, and his wingman was yelling for him to bail out. But the plane, along with the Flying Fortress, were both in steep, death spirals with nobody escaping from either aircraft.

I kept our squadron going and reformed at low level, heading back to our airfield. On reformation, I wanted a status. We took down what sounded like 5 total B-17's in one very, very effective stroke. But it costed us 1 pilot, a Hauptman (Captain). I recall that pilot since he was a regular wingman for me when I was a Major and he was a fresh Leutnant. Sad...

We flew home but none of the P-47's gave pursuit. I guess they were wary about more attacks? There weren't any. We were the only thing the Luftwaffe sent against them. 1 measley squadron...

[Mislovrit]

I swear I heard of a few places that mentioned that although the B-24 was more advanced than the B-17 it just wasn't as sturdy.

B-24 have a lot of advantages over the B-17, but durability was never one of them as far as the ETO was concerned.

[Knight26]

I swear I heard of a few places that mentioned that although the B-24 was more advanced than the B-17 it just wasn't as sturdy.

I have seen many, many pictures and wartime footage of B-17 Flying Fortresses limping back to an airfield with massive battle damage. But I haven't seen any for B-24 Liberators. I'm sure they're out there, but I haven't seen any.

As for CFS2, I'm an avid fan of several WWII flight sims: European Air War and IL-2 top my prop list, but mostly EAW due to the outstanding campaigns.

I began the war as a Major in the Luftwaffe's JG26 flying Bf109E's. Our squadron eventually transitioned into the formidable Fw190's. By early 1944, I was an Oberst (Colonel) and the CO of my squadron, as well as being an Experten with 80 or so victories. We had a alert to launch from our airfield in France to intercept another American formation of B-17's. I launched all available aircraft (12), got directions from ground control, climbed, then went for an intercept. Our angle was good, we were far ahead of the massive bomber formation. The escorts of Thunderbolts trailing aft of the bombers and just more than 1000 ft above. I asked ground if we will have assistance. I got the typical Luftwaffe answer by 1944. None. "Great" I thought. Still, we had great position. I elected to climb 2k feet higher than the bombers, turn into them, and go for frontal dives. We still had a well experienced group of pilots so they will make use of the short amount of time we get to aim and fire our 20mm cannons due to the fast dive. The goal with the Focke Wulf's powerful armament was the bomber cockpits. I intended to have our squadron continue to dive and break away since the American Thunderbolt escorts were at least a full fighter group compared to our single '190 squadron. Our diving speed should keep the Jugs off our tails.

We closed in, and the sections assigned their targets. Once it was all sorted, I ordered the attack to start and I dove first. We had it perfect, the classical "out of the sun" and "bandits 12 o'clock high" type of deal for attacking fighters. The American gunners were surprised and the amount of fire wasn't as strong compared to a rear approach. Due to the surprise, their defensive fire came up rather late. I had a Flying Fortress lined up very well and fired off my 4 cannons, obliterating the cockpit with a big flash. I proceeded to dive through the bomber formation but nothing else popped up in front of me.

The very short attack I recall had several important messages. There were a number of kills by the squadron against the bombers, I think we got 4 total as I listened to our traffic at the time. When my dive carried me out of the bomber formation, I continued to lead the squadron through the dive for escape. I looked back to see how things were going. I saw several B-17's going down. I then saw another bright flash and had a bad feeling. One of my pilots it seems had accidentally slashed his 190 through a wing of a B-17. The poor guy was panicking in his doomed fighter with a dead engine and missing wing, and his wingman was yelling for him to bail out. But the plane, along with the Flying Fortress, were both in steep, death spirals with nobody escaping from either aircraft.

I kept our squadron going and reformed at low level, heading back to our airfield. On reformation, I wanted a status. We took down what sounded like 5 total B-17's in one very, very effective stroke. But it costed us 1 pilot, a Hauptman (Captain). I recall that pilot since he was a regular wingman for me when I was a Major and he was a fresh Leutnant. Sad...

We flew home but none of the P-47's gave pursuit. I guess they were wary about more attacks? There weren't any. We were the only thing the Luftwaffe sent against them. 1 measley squadron...

This all from a game right, or were you a real pilot in the luftwaffe, if so you win the prize for oldest member on the boards.

[F-ZeroOne]

B-24 have a lot of advantages over the B-17, but durability was never one of them as far as the ETO was concerned.

It does tend to depend who you ask - some B-24 pilots point out that the type had a lower loss rate than the B-17 overall, but that might just reflect usage of the types in theatre. It is true that the B-24 could not gain as high an altitude as a B-17, and was therefore more likely to be attacked. It was also by many accounts a real handful to control at the best of times, which might have led to more losses, and some reports say that it had a tendency to burn easily.

[F-ZeroOne]

This all from a game right, or were you a real pilot in the luftwaffe, if so you win the prize for oldest member on the boards.

What, you've never heard of Luftwaffe ace Baron von Warmaker, "The Nightmare of Big Week"...?

Edited April 17, 2007 by F-ZeroOne

[David Hingtgen]

Umm, erm...

[Lynx7725]

As for CFS2, I'm an avid fan of several WWII flight sims: European Air War and IL-2 top my prop list, but mostly EAW due to the outstanding campaigns.

I don't quite like the ETO air combat, mainly because of my experiences in Aces over Europe; most of the planes had similar performances and it really became quite boring. I find even the best ETO planes sluggish to turn around, and it annoys me -- I guess I'm a dogfighter, not a B&Zer.

Whereas in the PTO, there exist two especially disparate schools of air combat, both with good and bad points, which makes for very interesting combats. A Zero is an absolute joy to fly -- flick down the flaps under 200 mph, and you can throw it all over the skies with little fear. It just wasn't the best plane to be in when tracers are flying around though..

Umm, erm...

That is actually one of the more scary paintjob. Can you imagine the "nutcase" driving the Hog? A Hello Kitty spitting 30mm presents. What can be more scary?

EDIT: Just an added comment on B-24 vs. B-17.

I find, in CFS2, the B-24's defensive firepower to be quite.. off. Certainly it threatens me, but I find it not very accurate and I've never really had the fear of it. Not to mention, there are certain blind spots where a small-ish fighter can slip in without being tracked, making it ineffective at best and a deathtrap at worst.

Whereas, in AoE (which I hadn't play for quite some time), I recall being very wary of the B-17's defensive envelope. I recall being unable to approach a "Box" without picking up some rounds, and they are usually fairly accurate (could be the game modelling). I just find B-17 harder to knock down because of its defenses.

Of course, can't beat the Avenger in this department. While it does have serious issues chasing fighters directly behind it, I've blown off feets off both wings on Avengers in sims and they still flew on. Tough buggers.

Edited April 18, 2007 by Lynx7725

[Phyrox]

Umm, erm...

B A D A S S

If someone releases a decal kit I'm makin' an A-10 kit next.

Speaking of durable planes, I was just reading a book on the Mariner...it isn't one of 'em. From most texts and unit histories you don't get much of a feel for it, but it has a list of every mariner loss in the appendix. Engine failure cum fiery crash like it was going out of style.

B-29s similarly don't seem to have been very combat survivable. Well, not that it wasn't durable, but that, like a submarine, you were either safe, or FUKIN' DEAD. I've always assumed it was due to the catastrophic loss of pressure associated with combat damage making escape a difficult prospect in that plane in particular, but I've never read enough on B-29s to verify this idea. When you read about a B-29 loss, it seems to usually be "moderately damaged so they decided to jump or ditch," or "down with all hands."

[VF-19]

B-24 in IL-2 (Pacific Fighters or 1946). If you're attacking it, stay the HELL away from it, this is what AI wingmen are for! Those damn gunners will cut you to pieces. Especially if you're in a Japanese aircraft.

Usually, when I deal with them in the quick mission builder, I put myself in a Me-262. 4 Mk-108s put VERY nice holes in them.

[kalvasflam]

Umm, erm...

ha ha, funny, fear the cute bunny, can you imagine the embarrassment of getting killed by that thing?

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

I don't quite like the ETO air combat, mainly because of my experiences in Aces over Europe; most of the planes had similar performances and it really became quite boring. I find even the best ETO planes sluggish to turn around, and it annoys me -- I guess I'm a dogfighter, not a B&Zer.

Well, if you play Il-2, they have several of the early 30s monoplanes and biplanes which you can Turn n Burn in.

I absolutely love flying the 262. 4 x Mk108s are lovely. Damn thing is that wingmen in 262s' never bloody keep their speed up and always get blown up. Stupid AI!

The bomber gunner AI in IL2 is also rather insane. Way too accurate. Have to do a near vertical dives going really fast in a damn jet to have a good chance of not getting hit.

Edited April 18, 2007 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[F-ZeroOne]

Umm, erm...

Ha! Gun Bunny!

[Warmaker]

This all from a game right, or were you a real pilot in the luftwaffe, if so you win the prize for oldest member on the boards.

It's from a game, European Air War! Like I said, there were alot of great moments. The game was awesome if you fly on singleplayer (with a kicka** Dynamic Campaign) or online.

The singleplayer campaigns were very good.

- Hangar and Barracks "screens." The hangar is where squadron management and records, maps were kept. The barracks? You stored your medals / awards there, that kept track of when you got the awards and for what. There was also music playing on a radio that came from the era, and you could change it to more music from the era.

- You chose a nationality, starting year, and squadron. The unit you join determines what type of aircraft you flew. For example, most of JG26 was flying Bf109's for the entire war, but there were was 1 group that flew Fw190's. I started early in the war with that group, flying 109's and then we transitioned into 190's. The unit you joined also determines where you are stationed out of.

- When you progress through the game, it keeps track of your victory count. IIRC, Germany awards a Knight's Cross at 50. There's also subsequent and sequential Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds for the Knight's Cross that could be awarded but you had to have very high victory count to get them as a pilot.

- The key thing that I still remembered what I typed earlier was this. Your squadron's roster was persistent for the campaign. Pilots stayed with the squadron. The more they flew, the more successful they became, the more of an impact they made... these were AI pilots! Since the roster was persistent, you began to remember ranks and names of certain AI pilots in your squadron. The game also kept track of their own victory tallies.

The high point for our squadron was mid 1943. We had numerous veterans since the Battle of Britain era that still were with us. Some rotated out. The replacements had ample veterans to watch over them. The newer pilots didn't compare but given enough flight time and combat experience, you saw them improve. As a Major, I would hang back and let my wingman try to get a kill himself, and I would cover him for any mistakes he did.

Like I said, you retained pilots in your squadron and they could improve. You saw some of them skyrocket in ability as pilots, some not as much. It made you care about your squadron mates, they weren't just so-so names to fill the roster before a mission.

But it got better when you became a Colonel / Oberst, a rank making you fit to be a squadron leader. Before a mission, YOU managed it all before leaving the hangar. YOU determined how many planes you would send up out of so many available planes. Do you want to send everything? Or only some, allowing your maintenance crew time to patch up planes some more? What loadout do you want on your planes? Drop tanks? 1 big bomb? Or several smaller ones? Rockets? You decide.

Aircraft availability... there are periods where Luftwaffe units get little to no replacement aircraft AND replacement pilots. That's why it's a fun challenge to fly a Luftwaffe unit in 1944 onwards. What kind of challenge is it to fly and lead a unit of Allied fighters when you outnumber your German opposition 3 to 1 at the very least? How about the challenge of leading your Luftwaffe squadron to intercept a huge formation of American bombers being escorted by 1-2 fighter groups of P-47's AND P-51's?

How many and which pilots do you want to send? Naturally, most people would say, "The best, all the time." Not a wise move in European Air War. Why? The game records aircrew fatigue. I have noticed ace pilots in my squadron perform poorly, not spotting easy to spot threats / targets since they've been flying like heck so many times a day for the past 3 weeks in a row. As a squadron leader, it was wise to maintain a pilot rotation as a routine. Give pilots, veteran and new, time to fly and rest. Also, new pilots need to fly alot so that they improve and see combat action. But you can't fly them into exhaustion.

This is why you actually care about your squadron and what kind of people you had. They did alot more than "just man the control stick and throttle" of another plane. They improved or worsened. They were mediocre or became great pilots. Fly enough missions, and you start remembering, "Oh yeah, 2 days ago, Haupt. Schneider flew up 6'oclock low on a flight of American Mustangs... I saw him light 2 of them up in quick order with his 20mm cannons before they split in panic. He then gave chase but the Ami's escaped! Those 2 victories right there made him an ace!" You also feel it when you hear or see one of your squadron mates get shot up. Sometimes, you see a big, catastrophic fireball. No chance of survival. Sometimes, you see his plane get shot up, then begins to descend trailing fire and smoke... you hear his wingman calling him to bail out, but there's no reply. Sometimes, you see someone bail out. Sometimes, you don't and can see his plane descend and smash into the ground. If they bail out, they may recover from injuries given alot of time and be back again! Still, there's more than enough chance of a permanent loss.

Aircraft were replaceable. Good pilots were not. That's what the EAW single-player campaign drilled into you.

To re-emphasize again the importance of training up your new pilots in European Air War. Like I said, there's enough threats to slowly kill off your veterans (if they don't get transferred). With that in mind, your remaining veterans need to "pick up the load" more when it happens. Having decently experienced group of junior officers goes a long way into a good experience for everyone when you flew.

In my best campaign, I flew from 1942 into the surrender of Germany in 1945, ending the war flying Fw190's with JG26. I watched my roster with great memorable pilots slowly be depleted through 1944. I watched the replacements' quality drop as they arrived from Germany. The lowest point was when it was 1945 and we were in Western Germany. Not counting myself (Oberst), I had 1 longtime veteran of the squadron still, a Major who was an Experten himself. But all the other old hands of the squadron were killed, MIA, wounded and not fit to return, or transferred out. We had three other pilots, all brand new lieutenants with little flight time... THREE! Our squadron had a maximum of 5 total pilots. And 4 flyable aircraft. I think we were lucky compared to other Luftwaffe commands. Fuel was getting scarcer and so was ammo. Yet we were still told to fly against Allied Air Forces that were numerically vast, very experienced, and equipped with fine aircraft. When the war ended with a German surrender, my turned over "squadron" was reduced to a Schwarm of 4 aircraft with 5 pilots. At one point we were part of a Luftwaffe that stood against the combined American and Commonwealth Air Forces, giving and taking. Then at the other point our squadron was depleted of men and aircraft, eventually into surrender.

Going through a EAW campaign to get into that last point yielded alot of awesome sim memories along the way that no other flight sim has replicated so far, not even IL-2.

---------------

Last EAW memory before logging off: Flying a campaign during the Battle of Britain. Suffered damage from a Spitfire and belly landed my Bf109E... near an RAF airfield I opened the canopy, exited, and greeted the Tommies who surrounded me, and raised my hands

---------------

Nothing like flying into a formation of American bombers. Machinegun fire all over the place! Well, they didn't call 'em Flying Fortresses for nothing.

I don't quite like the ETO air combat, mainly because of my experiences in Aces over Europe; most of the planes had similar performances and it really became quite boring. I find even the best ETO planes sluggish to turn around, and it annoys me -- I guess I'm a dogfighter, not a B&Zer.

Whereas in the PTO, there exist two especially disparate schools of air combat, both with good and bad points, which makes for very interesting combats. A Zero is an absolute joy to fly -- flick down the flaps under 200 mph, and you can throw it all over the skies with little fear. It just wasn't the best plane to be in when tracers are flying around though..

As a Boom & Zoom flyer:

Yes, it's not as varied but there were "turning fighters" for the ETO. The Spitfire dominates that. US aircraft favored energy fighting, ETO or PTO.

However, to me, the Bf109 is a weird plane. By mid-late eras of the war, I'm not sure if the Bf109 variants are dogfighters or energy fighters. They're not as fast with the extra armor and armament. They also don't turn as well. They do handle well however, but nothing like the Fw190's that I favor when I fly for the Luftwaffe.

As for my preferred mounts in these air forces when I sim:

US Army Air Corps: Tie P-47 (firepower & durability) and P-51 (power and handling). Me hates the P-38!

British Royal Air Force: Pickings are slim early on, IMO, so the Spitfire. I'm not a Hurricane fan...

Luftwaffe: Fw190

US Marine Corps / US Navy: F4U Corsair (I say no to Hellcats)

Imperial Japanese Navy: A6M Zero

Imperial Japanese Army: Ki-84 Hayate!

European Air War had some fan made add-ons to make a more realistic flight and damage model. It also added alot of aircraft and variants to the list, depending on the timeframe.

Edited April 18, 2007 by Warmaker

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

It's from a game, European Air War! Like I said, there were alot of great moments. The game was awesome if you fly on singleplayer (with a kicka** Dynamic Campaign) or online.

The singleplayer campaigns were very good.

- Hangar and Barracks "screens." The hangar is where squadron management and records, maps were kept. The barracks? You stored your medals / awards there, that kept track of when you got the awards and for what. There was also music playing on a radio that came from the era, and you could change it to more music from the era.

- You chose a nationality, starting year, and squadron. The unit you join determines what type of aircraft you flew. For example, most of JG26 was flying Bf109's for the entire war, but there were was 1 group that flew Fw190's. I started early in the war with that group, flying 109's and then we transitioned into 190's. The unit you joined also determines where you are stationed out of.

- When you progress through the game, it keeps track of your victory count. IIRC, Germany awards a Knight's Cross at 50. There's also subsequent and sequential Oak Leaves, Swords, and Diamonds for the Knight's Cross that could be awarded but you had to have very high victory count to get them as a pilot.

- The key thing that I still remembered what I typed earlier was this. Your squadron's roster was persistent for the campaign. Pilots stayed with the squadron. The more they flew, the more successful they became, the more of an impact they made... these were AI pilots! Since the roster was persistent, you began to remember ranks and names of certain AI pilots in your squadron. The game also kept track of their own victory tallies.

The high point for our squadron was mid 1943. We had numerous veterans since the Battle of Britain era that still were with us. Some rotated out. The replacements had ample veterans to watch over them. The newer pilots didn't compare but given enough flight time and combat experience, you saw them improve. As a Major, I would hang back and let my wingman try to get a kill himself, and I would cover him for any mistakes he did.

Like I said, you retained pilots in your squadron and they could improve. You saw some of them skyrocket in ability as pilots, some not as much. It made you care about your squadron mates, they weren't just so-so names to fill the roster before a mission.

But it got better when you became a Colonel / Oberst, a rank making you fit to be a squadron leader. Before a mission, YOU managed it all before leaving the hangar. YOU determined how many planes you would send up out of so many available planes. Do you want to send everything? Or only some, allowing your maintenance crew time to patch up planes some more? What loadout do you want on your planes? Drop tanks? 1 big bomb? Or several smaller ones? Rockets? You decide.

Aircraft availability... there are periods where Luftwaffe units get little to no replacement aircraft AND replacement pilots. That's why it's a fun challenge to fly a Luftwaffe unit in 1944 onwards. What kind of challenge is it to fly and lead a unit of Allied fighters when you outnumber your German opposition 3 to 1 at the very least? How about the challenge of leading your Luftwaffe squadron to intercept a huge formation of American bombers being escorted by 1-2 fighter groups of P-47's AND P-51's?

How many and which pilots do you want to send? Naturally, most people would say, "The best, all the time." Not a wise move in European Air War. Why? The game records aircrew fatigue. I have noticed ace pilots in my squadron perform poorly, not spotting easy to spot threats / targets since they've been flying like heck so many times a day for the past 3 weeks in a row. As a squadron leader, it was wise to maintain a pilot rotation as a routine. Give pilots, veteran and new, time to fly and rest. Also, new pilots need to fly alot so that they improve and see combat action. But you can't fly them into exhaustion.

This is why you actually care about your squadron and what kind of people you had. They did alot more than "just man the control stick and throttle" of another plane. They improved or worsened. They were mediocre or became great pilots. Fly enough missions, and you start remembering, "Oh yeah, 2 days ago, Haupt. Schneider flew up 6'oclock low on a flight of American Mustangs... I saw him light 2 of them up in quick order with his 20mm cannons before they split in panic. He then gave chase but the Ami's escaped! Those 2 victories right there made him an ace!" You also feel it when you hear or see one of your squadron mates get shot up. Sometimes, you see a big, catastrophic fireball. No chance of survival. Sometimes, you see his plane get shot up, then begins to descend trailing fire and smoke... you hear his wingman calling him to bail out, but there's no reply. Sometimes, you see someone bail out. Sometimes, you don't and can see his plane descend and smash into the ground. If they bail out, they may recover from injuries given alot of time and be back again! Still, there's more than enough chance of a permanent loss.

Aircraft were replaceable. Good pilots were not. That's what the EAW single-player campaign drilled into you.

To re-emphasize again the importance of training up your new pilots in European Air War. Like I said, there's enough threats to slowly kill off your veterans (if they don't get transferred). With that in mind, your remaining veterans need to "pick up the load" more when it happens. Having decently experienced group of junior officers goes a long way into a good experience for everyone when you flew.

In my best campaign, I flew from 1942 into the surrender of Germany in 1945, ending the war flying Fw190's with JG26. I watched my roster with great memorable pilots slowly be depleted through 1944. I watched the replacements' quality drop as they arrived from Germany. The lowest point was when it was 1945 and we were in Western Germany. Not counting myself (Oberst), I had 1 longtime veteran of the squadron still, a Major who was an Experten himself. But all the other old hands of the squadron were killed, MIA, wounded and not fit to return, or transferred out. We had three other pilots, all brand new lieutenants with little flight time... THREE! Our squadron had a maximum of 5 total pilots. And 4 flyable aircraft. I think we were lucky compared to other Luftwaffe commands. Fuel was getting scarcer and so was ammo. Yet we were still told to fly against Allied Air Forces that were numerically vast, very experienced, and equipped with fine aircraft. When the war ended with a German surrender, my turned over "squadron" was reduced to a Schwarm of 4 aircraft with 5 pilots. At one point we were part of a Luftwaffe that stood against the combined American and Commonwealth Air Forces, giving and taking. Then at the other point our squadron was depleted of men and aircraft, eventually into surrender.

Going through a EAW campaign to get into that last point yielded alot of awesome sim memories along the way that no other flight sim has replicated so far, not even IL-2.

---------------

Last EAW memory before logging off: Flying a campaign during the Battle of Britain. Suffered damage from a Spitfire and belly landed my Bf109E... near an RAF airfield I opened the canopy, exited, and greeted the Tommies who surrounded me, and raised my hands

---------------

Nothing like flying into a formation of American bombers. Machinegun fire all over the place! Well, they didn't call 'em Flying Fortresses for nothing.

As a Boom & Zoom flyer:

Yes, it's not as varied but there were "turning fighters" for the ETO. The Spitfire dominates that. US aircraft favored energy fighting, ETO or PTO.

However, to me, the Bf109 is a weird plane. By mid-late eras of the war, I'm not sure if the Bf109 variants are dogfighters or energy fighters. They're not as fast with the extra armor and armament. They also don't turn as well. They do handle well however, but nothing like the Fw190's that I favor when I fly for the Luftwaffe.

As for my preferred mounts in these air forces when I sim:

US Army Air Corps: Tie P-47 (firepower & durability) and P-51 (power and handling). Me hates the P-38!

British Royal Air Force: Pickings are slim early on, IMO, so the Spitfire. I'm not a Hurricane fan...

Luftwaffe: Fw190

US Marine Corps / US Navy: F4U Corsair (I say no to Hellcats)

Imperial Japanese Navy: A6M Zero

Imperial Japanese Army: Ki-84 Hayate!

European Air War had some fan made add-ons to make a more realistic flight and damage model. It also added alot of aircraft and variants to the list, depending on the timeframe.

Wait, why no hellcats man?

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Wait, why no hellcats man?

The Corsair does everything better!

[Lynx7725]

The Corsair does everything better!

The Corsair is a very sweet plane to fly in sims; the 6 0.5cal is also great. Thing is though, it's really an Ensign Eliminator.

There is a flight sim, Aces over the Pacific (IIRC) that had a '46 expansion. In it, they included the F4U-2, a brutal power hog that has an incredible climb rate and an incredible torque. The first time I took it off the deck, the plane started rotating clockwise immediately after leaving the deck. A very eerie sensation, that -- if you aren't paying attention, or got into the wrong situation, the torque could easily send you into the ground.

I always found it a bit surprising (especially after flying the hoggish Thunderbolt) that an American WWII plane can be so powerful yet so responsive to the stick as the Corsair.

[Warmaker]

Wait, why no hellcats man?

I'm just not a Hellcat fan. I love Grumman, but I love the look and power of the Corsair. I guess I watched too much "Black Sheep Squadron" as a kid and hanged around the Corsair displays at airshows.

Another reason I like the Corsair is that as a Marine, it presents alot of history. WWII Marine Aviation? First platform I think of for Marines in those days is the Corsair.

I'm quite familiar with the contributions the Hellcat made. It's just not for me and my style!

Edit to add: Another reason I love the Corsairs are certain variants.

F4U-1C - x4 20mm cannons but was a rare bird

F4U-4C - 20mm cannons again!

20mm cannons were not the typical Corsair armament with x6 .50 cal's dominating loadouts. But they did exist. When I flew online with other people, if no one had a problem with it, I flew a 20mm armed Corsair.

The other reason I love the 20mm armed Corsairs was that when I prepared to and during fire, I treated it just like the heavily armed Fw190's that have numerous 20mm cannons also. I withhold fire until everything's right, then I let loose with a quick, short burst of all 4 cannons. Most fighters easily go down after that. Zeros and most Japanese aircraft just disintegrate. A P-47 rates maybe a half second more extra fire to be safe (when flying Fw190's). If I come across bombers, the 20mm cannons work wonders.

Edited April 19, 2007 by Warmaker

[VF-19]

Well, if you play Il-2, they have several of the early 30s monoplanes and biplanes which you can Turn n Burn in.

I absolutely love flying the 262. 4 x Mk108s are lovely. Damn thing is that wingmen in 262s' never bloody keep their speed up and always get blown up. Stupid AI!

The bomber gunner AI in IL2 is also rather insane. Way too accurate. Have to do a near vertical dives going really fast in a damn jet to have a good chance of not getting hit.

Actually, in the B-17 and B-29, it's not too bad. You can actually get near one of those things and actually stay mostly intact. The B-24s... must have terminators at the gunner's stations... Boom! Headshot! That or the .50s of the B-24 aren't affected by the normal laws of physics. They always find your plane. Even when not aimed at you.

[Lightning]

does anybody play CFS3 in here?

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Actually, in the B-17 and B-29, it's not too bad. You can actually get near one of those things and actually stay mostly intact. The B-24s... must have terminators at the gunner's stations... Boom! Headshot! That or the .50s of the B-24 aren't affected by the normal laws of physics. They always find your plane. Even when not aimed at you.

I only have up to the Forgotten Battles. Never saw the 24s and 29s. Are they in the Pacific Battles game?

The B-17 on vet or ace mode is already stupid. Anything under 400 yards and they would either do a head-shot on the pilot or leave one Jumo-004 burning >75% of the time. And its not like I am hanging about at stall speed either!

You mean it gets worse than that with the 24/29????

[David Hingtgen]

Corsairs simply rock, 'nuff said. They sound the coolest by far, no question. (Yes, that goes out to all the Mustang fans). One of my all-time fave airshow experiences is simply eating pizza while sitting on the grass next to a Corsair.

[VF-19]

I only have up to the Forgotten Battles. Never saw the 24s and 29s. Are they in the Pacific Battles game?

The B-17 on vet or ace mode is already stupid. Anything under 400 yards and they would either do a head-shot on the pilot or leave one Jumo-004 burning >75% of the time. And its not like I am hanging about at stall speed either!

You mean it gets worse than that with the 24/29????

The -24 and -29 are both in the Pacific Fighters expansion, and the 1946 edition. Do yourself a favor and get IL2: 1946. It's like buying IL-2, IL-2 Forgotten Battles, IL-2 Ace expansion pack, IL-2 Pacific Fighters, the PE-2 expansion, and plus new content exclusive to 1946.

[HoveringCheesecake]

The -24 and -29 are both in the Pacific Fighters expansion, and the 1946 edition. Do yourself a favor and get IL2: 1946. It's like buying IL-2, IL-2 Forgotten Battles, IL-2 Ace expansion pack, IL-2 Pacific Fighters, the PE-2 expansion, and plus new content exclusive to 1946.

I will second this recommendation. You won't regret it.

IL2 + PF + AEP + 1946 >>>>>>>>>>> CFS3

[Coota0]

Bought 1946 a few weeks ago and love it. The online play is great.

[David Hingtgen]

Do you like CAG planes? Then this pic is for you:

http://www.navy.mil/view_single.asp?id=45190

And no, neither of those squadrons are the Sundowners. It's been a trend lately for squadrons in Japan to have a rising sun, but I think it's wrong, since that marking is THE logo of a quite famous squadron already---one that has been recently re-commissioned.