Aircraft Vs Thread 3

[eugimon]

Has anyone heard more on this yet?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/...-to-hawaii.html

yeah. CNN had a segment on it... the reporter kept asking same question over and and over again.. at one point, comparing the F-22 to a cesna due to the glitch. pretty funny stuff.

[RFT]

I don't know the exact place, but is in India. The air show is for see the future MRCA (Multi-Role Combat Aircrat) for India, it buy 126 unit; winner Mig-35 with 90% possibilities.

Su-30MKI with LCA?

I'm 90% sure those smaller aircraft are gripens, based on

a: intake positioning

b: tail shape and aerials

c: the white colour of the nosecone and the fact it's a slanted line where it changes to the darker grey.

d: LCA's got a pretty prominent spine which those planes don't.

link to reference pic

[kalvasflam]

yeah. CNN had a segment on it... the reporter kept asking same question over and and over again.. at one point, comparing the F-22 to a cesna due to the glitch. pretty funny stuff.

Trust CNN for accurate information... well, reporters aren't paid to report good news, it's the bad news that's interesting. He was probably hoping that the flight disappeared mysteriously, then it would really make it onto the news cycle.

But one interesting effect might be seeing how much the humidity effect might be for the plane. Although, it's not that humid in Hawaii at the moment.

[joseph]

I'm 90% sure those smaller aircraft are gripens, based on

a: intake positioning

b: tail shape and aerials

c: the white colour of the nosecone and the fact it's a slanted line where it changes to the darker grey.

d: LCA's got a pretty prominent spine which those planes don't.

link to reference pic

You are right, those are gripen, a little small compared with Su-30MKI

[HoveringCheesecake]

Hey! Airplane junkies! Maybe you guys can help me out...

Does anyone know where I can find helmets like these from a place other than eBay?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewI...p;rd=1&rd=1

So, basically the HGU-68 and the HGU-55. Are these the types of prices that I'll be facing no matter where I go? I want one with all the fixins... Well, with the visors/oxygen masks at least.

[David Hingtgen]

I know there's a few places that sell them, but it was a long time ago that I read anything about them. (many of the places that sell them are the official suppliers, and military orders take precedence over civilian, so you may have to wait a while)

[HoveringCheesecake]

Yeah, I found a site that claims to be the only officially-licensed GENTEX supplier, and the prices were the same as those on eBay. Personally, I'd almost prefer a used/surplus helmet because it'd be cheaper. Plus the used ones have that "sweet" factor to them.

I kind of wish I would have jumped on the one that went for $301, but I should really wait until after I get my tax return at the earliest.

[Cruel Angel's Thesis]

According to Aviation Week at Red Flag excerises this week a kill was obtained on a Raptor. I don't have the issue handy, but according to what was posted on the Discussion Forum for Dreamland Resort, the pilot had believed the engagement was over and the aggresors had left. One had doubled back and was able to get behind the Raptor and get a shot in. To quote a section of the post

"Someone on another forum mentioned that perhaps this might be the biggest true danger to Raptor pilots in combat: complacency, from growing accustomed to the near-invincibility they've enjoyed in training."

I just find it amazing a kill was scored on a Raptor, but Red Flag is full of suprises a year or 2 ago, F-15 and F-16 pilots got a wake-up call when they were engaged by Hinds. Unsure of who won that.

Cruel Angel's Thesis

[David Hingtgen]

That doesn't count as a kill. No more than if he was "shot down" 20 mins later while flaring to land.

Best story I ever heard of an "exercise" kill was when a couple Jaguars took down an entire flight of F-15's.

[Phyrox]

That doesn't count as a kill. No more than if he was "shot down" 20 mins later while flaring to land.

Best story I ever heard of an "exercise" kill was when a couple Jaguars took down an entire flight of F-15's.

I'm not sure I understand you here. Those are the best times to get a kill, and I can't see why they wouldn't "count." If you use trickery, deception, or ambushes to kill your enemy, he's still dead. In air combat a "fair fight" is a rare thing, don't see why Red Flag should be any exception.

[David Hingtgen]

It doesn't count because in real life, an F-22 wouldn't just turn around, shut off its radar, and go home because "it was time to start round 2".

PS--F-22 doing the longest, slowest Cobra and Kulbit I've ever seen, about 1:20 in.

Cool pic: The Northern lights in Alaska, from an Alaska 737 in flight: http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1183...d=&next_id=

[Nied]

The version of the story I had heard is that the Red Air that got the kill had already been killed itself, but the general running the exercise "respawned" him. The Raptor pilot missed that radio message and thus didn't realize the previously dead aircraft was alive and well and setting up for a kill on him. It's still an unfair situation since generally speaking enemy aircraft don't come back from the dead after they've been shot down.

[Coota0]

That doesn't count as a kill. No more than if he was "shot down" 20 mins later while flaring to land.

Isn't that how Yeager made ace in one day.

Edited March 3, 2007 by Coota0

[Coota0]

The version of the story I had heard is that the Red Air that got the kill had already been killed itself, but the general running the exercise "respawned" him. The Raptor pilot missed that radio message and thus didn't realize the previously dead aircraft was alive and well and setting up for a kill on him. It's still an unfair situation since generally speaking enemy aircraft don't come back from the dead after they've been shot down.

But they do all the time at Red Flag. The Red force routinely send out 4-12 aircraft, but can engage massive numbers of Blue force aircraft because the Red force respawns after being shot down and leaving the engagement area.

[eugimon]

It doesn't count because in real life, an F-22 wouldn't just turn around, shut off its radar, and go home because "it was time to start round 2".

PS--F-22 doing the longest, slowest Cobra and Kulbit I've ever seen, about 1:20 in.

Cool pic: The Northern lights in Alaska, from an Alaska 737 in flight: http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1183...d=&next_id=

cool, thanks for the clips... that F-22 sequence was amazing... that plane acted like a leaf on the wind.

[F-ZeroOne]

That doesn't count as a kill. No more than if he was "shot down" 20 mins later while flaring to land.

Best story I ever heard of an "exercise" kill was when a couple Jaguars took down an entire flight of F-15's.

Don't tell anyone, but we've got a couple of Spitfires waiting in the wings for the F-22 boys.

[David Hingtgen]

Just a quick update: Australian Super Hornet order is confirmed, 24 F models. Haven't found a delivery date yet though. Now if they'd only buy a carrier to go with them...

[T.V.]

Just a quick update: Australian Super Hornet order is confirmed, 24 F models. Haven't found a delivery date yet though. Now if they'd only buy a carrier to go with them...

Lol.

What would be the cheapest?

Buying a refitted Enterprise, joining the CV(F) programme or a new one?

[David Hingtgen]

Based on Australian experience with "used" ships, they'd probably want to build their own.

[Warmaker]

I'm kind of surprised the Aussies are going with an "interim" aircraft, especially a very expensive short term fix like a Super Hornet.

So the JSF is that far behind?

[David Hingtgen]

Yes, plus it sure won't have the payload of the F-111 it's supposed to replace. Super Hornet doesn't either, but it's more than the JSF.

Frankly: Australia is worried about all the "Super Flanker of the month" deliveries throughout SE Asia. The JSF is NOT going to be able to match them in air-to-air, and won't even be here for a few more years. The best the RAAF could send is F-18A's. A Super Hornet however, with the lastest mods and configured for pure air-to-air, could do well against most anything, and could be delivered in months.

[Lynx7725]

Pulling up some ancient history..

Remember the mystery GOL crash last year? The one where the juggernaut Boeing apparently ran over a small Embracer jet... and the Embracer got away?

Well, wikipedia had some updates:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gol_Transport...eos_Flight_1907

In summary, the two were assigned to the same flight level and just ran into each other. I think what happened is that the Boeing crew just didn't understand the extent of the damage until it was too late..

[Apollo Leader]

Talk to me Goose, talk to me Goose...

Museum and "JAG" owned F-14's reclaimed by the government. Turns out they weren't properly demilitarized.

[Retracting Head Ter Ter]

Frankly: Australia is worried about all the "Super Flanker of the month" deliveries throughout SE Asia. The JSF is NOT going to be able to match them in air-to-air,

Given how the F-22 is kicking F-15 butt principally thru the 'I can't even see the damn things on screen' factor, is the 'stealth' feature of the F-35 so far behind the F-22 that its going to have trouble with the Flanker?

I mean, yeah the Flankers would have more range/payload etc etc, but wouldn't the stealth aspect even things out a lot?

Edited March 7, 2007 by Retracting Head Ter Ter

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Given how the F-22 is kicking F-15 butt principally thru the 'I can't even see the damn things on screen' factor, is the 'stealth' feature of the F-35 so far behind the F-22 that its going to have trouble with the Flanker?

I mean, yeah the Flankers would have more range/payload etc etc, but wouldn't the stealth aspect even things out a lot?

The F-22 can manuever well in BFM, I think a lot of people are thinking that the JSF cannot, and in a dogfight, where stealth wouldn't matter that close in, the flanker would have the advantage.

In a2a the flanker carries a lot more missles too.

[HoveringCheesecake]

No kidding - what is the Flanker's payload, anyway?

[Knight26]

No kidding - what is the Flanker's payload, anyway?

Depending on the model, up to 14 a2a missiles, plus the most accurate fighter mounted gun in the world.

[David Hingtgen]

Vs the max load of 4 AMRAAMs in stealth config for a JSF, with an optional gunpod...

Plus the Flanker has a better power-to-weight ratio, and agility, and speed, and climbrate, and everything else.

The F-35 is quite stealthy, but not so stealthy that it makes up for everything else.

Officially, its agility is "comparable" to the F-16. If it was equal to or better, you can bet Lockheed would be mentioning that fact all the time.

[Nied]

Vs the max load of 4 AMRAAMs in stealth config for a JSF, with an optional gunpod...

Plus the Flanker has a better power-to-weight ratio, and agility, and speed, and climbrate, and everything else.

The F-35 is quite stealthy, but not so stealthy that it makes up for everything else.

Officially, its agility is "comparable" to the F-16. If it was equal to or better, you can bet Lockheed would be mentioning that fact all the time.

On the other hand Lockheed doesn't want to queer sales of their other big money project by making the F-35 look too good in the A2A arena, lest DoD decides to buy more of cheap F-35s than expensive F-22s. LM is walking a tightrope right now between selling it's product, OPSEC, and selling it's other products (F-22 and upgraded F-16s). That would at least partially explain why they haven't talked up the F-35's maneuverability.

[David Hingtgen]

True, but basically:

The F-22 was designed for sheer air-to-air, as much as the F-15 was. The JSF has been intended to be all-purpose multi-role since the beginning. And it's fat. It simply CAN'T be anywhere near the F-22. Could it be better than the F-16? Yes. Could it obliterate entire squadrons like the F-22? No.

You can make a nice multi-role out of a fighter (F-14/15/16) but you can't do the opposite.

[HoveringCheesecake]

Depending on the model, up to 14 a2a missiles, plus the most accurate fighter mounted gun in the world.

INCREDIBLE! The most I counted was 10 on a Su-33... I imagine there were some hidden in the belly area that I couldn't see. That's just crazy though!

*glances at GainCorp 1/72 scale Su-27s...* Hmmm...

[Shin Densetsu Kai 7.0]

Here's a question fellas. do you think the F-35B can outfight the Sea Harrier FRS2 in ACM?

I wonder if the F-35 can use VIFFing techniques in ACM.

[David Hingtgen]

1. Yes

2. No

As for Flanker loads--what version can carry 14 missiles? I can't think of any dual-rail launchers for them. Basic Flankers have 10 hardpoints, Supers have 12. (generally).

2--wingtips

2--intakes

2--belly

4--wings

With 2 more on the wings for Supers.

As for a Super Hornet, you could max out at:

2 AIM-9X/ASRAAM on the wingtips

2 AMRAAM on the fuselage corners

8 AMRAAM on the inner and mid pylons (dual rails)

2 AMRAAM on the outer pylons (single rails)

Of course, you could put AIM-9X's or ASRAAMs on any of the wing-mounted rails as well, and I think Australia plans that, at least partially--they do that with their Hornets now. (And Canada's standard load is AIM-9's on dual rails I think)

::edit:: OK, I can't find any of my pics of Super Hornets with max AMRAAM load, which I'm pretty sure I've uploaded here before. Anyone got pics?

[kalvasflam]

As for a Super Hornet, you could max out at:

2 AIM-9X/ASRAAM on the wingtips

2 AMRAAM on the fuselage corners

8 AMRAAM on the inner and mid pylons (dual rails)

2 AMRAAM on the outer pylons (single rails)

Of course, you could put AIM-9X's or ASRAAMs on any of the wing-mounted rails as well, and I think Australia plans that, at least partially--they do that with their Hornets now. (And Canada's standard load is AIM-9's on dual rails I think)

::edit:: OK, I can't find any of my pics of Super Hornets with max AMRAAM load, which I'm pretty sure I've uploaded here before. Anyone got pics?

I've seen one armed with eight AMRAAMs on an Aviation Space weekly magazine, or was it ten, I can't remember, but it's ridiculous. I talked to an -18 pilot once back in 98 I think, and the guy laughed and said it was ridiculous what Boeing (might have still been MCD then) put up since there weren't more than 200 AMRAAMs in the inventory.

Edited March 8, 2007 by kalvasflam

[David Hingtgen]

Plenty of pics of 10, Legacy Hornets can do that:

It's the 12 that I'm trying to find a pic of, I'm pretty sure I've seen it, but most airshows omit the inner pylon totally, and leave the fuselage empty, for 6.

(yes, the first pic is actually 8 AMRAAM and 2 Sparrow--but it's a bigger, clearer pic)

PS---first shot I think of a Raptor with a bay full of bombs: http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/pho...F-9999X-100.jpg

GBU-39, the SBD--small diameter bomb. Tiny little JDAM, but supposed to have the punch of much larger weapons. It's a 250lb.