Dam You Macross 7 Dam You #$%#$^#$&^$%&

[azrael]

Entering into speculation - think of how many control cambinations the guitar stick gives you.  Basara launched his missiles by using "Slider 52," then pressing a certain button on the er, end of the guitar.  (I know nothing about guitars).  If there's 52+ sliders, x 8 or so button each, in addition to the greater variety of positions you can put it in; you have a alot more action capability than a 2 button joystick and a throttle.  You'd spend a lot less time reaching away from the hand controls to hit buttons. 

425365[/snapback]

What Ray meant was, "place the slider into position 52". The neck of the guitar stick is a mode-select where the slider unit is the selection-unit. Position 52 happens to be the option for using the missiles.

[Zinjo]

The Guitar stick is only dangerous when 3 year olds try to tag along in the cockpit while you're being attacked by a Quadran Rau who's pilot has the largest bra in the galaxy. The rest of the time it's quite safe.

Based on what logic? Physics??

The fact that a guitar stick is approximately 5' to 6' long as opposed to a 8" to 9" hand stick typically used?

One hit from an enemy missile could send a guitar sticked fighter spining out of control, due to the jarring of the impact as opposed to a possible veering off course or shutter from a hand stick. That's just the basics of physics and leverage. The larger the lever the more pronounced the movement.

Besides, the bra and it's contents are the most dangerous part of that example...

As for the MAXL Kai, femine mecha & giant robots are far from uncommon, I rather like the swan motif.

Well that's a personal preference I don't share regarding the MAXL...

Edited August 16, 2006 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

Doh!

Edited August 16, 2006 by Zinjo

[JB0]

Besides, the bra and it's contents are the most dangerous part of that example...

Probably the most interesting part too.

I'd say fun, but I don't share Mr. Kawamori's fondness for women that could accidentally step on me.

[sketchley]

The fact that a guitar stick is approximately 5' to 6' long as opposed to a 8" to 9" hand stick typically used? 

One hit from an enemy missile could send a guitar sticked fighter spining out of control, due to the jarring of the impact as opposed to a possible veering off course or shutter from a hand stick.  That's just the basics of physics and leverage.  The larger the lever the more pronounced the movement.

425528[/snapback]

Think outside the box, It's fairly easy to reduce the responsiveness of the controls - as in five times as much control movement is needed to get the same reaction on a smaller stick.

[Kelsain]

Well you can't argue common sense and in terms of direct control one can argue that the guitar stick could offer more, however I would suspect that with a control system like a Variable fighter, a designer would rather have such switches at the pilot's finger tips or as part of the control stick.  So the idea of reaching for a control during combat would not be an issue.

Modern fighters have all their combat "necessary" controls around the joystick or throttle. 

I would expect a military VF to have similar design characteristics, where all the needed controls are within a finger's reach.  Optional controls are not.

I guess we'll just have to wait to see what the control requirements of giant battle robots really are. In reference to your statement about the buttons, have seen this before. I was just speculating about the guitar. Actually, I think the best example I've seen in anime was Gunbuster. It's been a LOOOOONG time since I watched it, but the controls looked suitably complex and also fairly ergonomic. If you cosider that the shouting of attack names might actually be part of the combat interface, it works pretty well for the action. Back to topic (kinda), I do recall that the YF-19's flightstick buttons were green & glowy - perhaps that's some OTEC multi-function thing.

As for guitar-stick injury, perhaps that's why every time a member of Sound Force got really nailed, they bled from the forehead. Course, everybody seemed to bleed from the forehead...

Back to Mylene's VF-11, lady-bots have definitely been a constant fixture in anime. The oldest one I can think of was in Manzinger-Z, with the boob-missiles. There was also "Sailor" Gundam. Most people, understandably, feel that it doesn't fit in the context of Macross, where the mecha had always been military before - with a realistic, clunky military look to it. I take some issue with it, sure, but I'm willing to look past it, because I enjoyed most other aspects of the show. (that's not a dig at people who really do have a problem with it, you like what you like)

Edited August 16, 2006 by Kelsain

[Zinjo]

Think outside the box,  It's fairly easy to reduce the responsiveness of the controls - as in five times as much control movement is needed to get the same reaction on a smaller stick.

If you reduce the responsiveness of the stick, then you have a fighter, travelling up to Mach speeds, with a sluggish control stick to allow for a pilot's over compensations. Both sticks rely on the same principles of control, there isn't any advantage of having a longer control stick.

In WWI & II the fighter pilots flew with floor mounted joysticks, similar in length to the guitarstick. Such control devices were acceptable because the fighters flew well under mach speeds and because of this lack of speed the aircraft was much more forgiving to over compesation. The controls were also attached to wires that would require physical exertion to operate the controls, thus leverage was a good thing. There is also the fact that these prop planes never experienced being hit by a missile or a very high calibre round, which would have a greater kinetic impact on the flight of the plane.

It's basic physics, not a matter of thinking outside of the box.

If you hold on to a broomstick attached to a wall and someone pushes you, the distance the end of the broomstick travels will be greater than that of an 8" stick attached to the same wall.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Zinjo

[Ginrai]

With high G-forces and all, I'd expect it would be difficult to use a guitar stick control and keep control of the valkyrie.  It seems like it would be really easy to hit the wrong button, or slide the wrong thing, especially if being shaken up.

The mind boggles even more with the drum controls in the 17... O_o

425433[/snapback]

Yeah, all those g-forces. IN SPACE.

Just sayin'.

Okay, some once in while they're in an atmosphere, but 99% of the time they're in space, so who cares?

[Ginrai]

Most people, understandably, feel that it doesn't fit in the context of Macross, where the mecha had always been military before - with a realistic, clunky military look to it.

425559[/snapback]

You've got to be kidding. Maybe you were thinking of Votoms or Srungle. The only "realistic, clunky military" mecha in Macross are the Destroids. The VF-1 Valkyries were always graceful and lithe. Rather feminine in fact, and certainly far from clunky.

[azrael]

I'd say fun, but I don't share Mr. Kawamori's fondness for women that could accidentally step on me.

To each his own...

Back to topic (kinda), I do recall that the YF-19's flightstick buttons were green & glowy - perhaps that's some OTEC multi-function thing.

Those green glowing thingies on the standard VF-19 are most likely sensors, not some fancy OTEC gizmos. They probably function as programmable buttons and/or sensors which read finger movement and translate that into more precise control in GERWALK or Battroid modes or whatever they may be programmed to do.

[GutsAndCasca]

Therefore making Isamu even more badazz...

[Zinjo]

Yeah, all those g-forces. IN SPACE.

Just sayin'.

Okay, some once in while they're in an atmosphere, but 99% of the time they're in space, so who cares?

More physics...

Inertia still works in space.

If an object is travelling full speed in one direction and then suddently changes direction, there is a certain amount of inertial pressure exerted on the pilot when that change is made. Depending on the amount of that pressue, it could be up to and including several g-forces.

[Zinjo]

This has to be a record!

26 pages of debate on Macross 7 and no need for asbestos suits.

Keith is right, this is remarkable

Edited August 16, 2006 by Zinjo

[Kelsain]

Most people, understandably, feel that it doesn't fit in the context of Macross, where the mecha had always been military before - with a realistic, clunky military look to it.

425559[/snapback]

You've got to be kidding. Maybe you were thinking of Votoms or Srungle. The only "realistic, clunky military" mecha in Macross are the Destroids. The VF-1 Valkyries were always graceful and lithe. Rather feminine in fact, and certainly far from clunky.

425615[/snapback]

Yes, the clunky part was in reference to the destroids. They're big & slab-sided like an M1. Most of the time I'm writing from work, half a sentence here & there, so my thoughts get a little condensed - sorry. On the valkyries though, there's usually a very sensible-looking combination of sleek aerodynamics and blocky bits (intakes, arms, etc). I'm in no way an aeronautical engineer, but the appearance gives them a credible link to real world aircraft. In Mac7, particularly with Mylene's VF-11, all those were sacrificed for appearance. I personally think they also pushed the VF-19 a little too far from the YF-19 by getting rid of all the angles. I'm also not a big fan of the "thruster ring" cuffs on the legs - I like the look of the individual verniers better.

As Zinjo points out, this is a very civil and interesting M7 thread. Cheers to all.

[JB0]

Yeah, all those g-forces. IN SPACE.

Just sayin'.

Okay, some once in while they're in an atmosphere, but 99% of the time they're in space, so who cares?

More physics...

Inertia still works in space.

If an object is travelling full speed in one direction and then suddently changes direction, there is a certain amount of inertial pressure exerted on the pilot when that change is made. Depending on the amount of that pressue, it could be up to and including several g-forces.

425678[/snapback]

Of course, pilots in Macross seem to routinely pull maneuvers that would cause any real-world pilot to black out.

[sketchley]

Think outside the box,  It's fairly easy to reduce the responsiveness of the controls - as in five times as much control movement is needed to get the same reaction on a smaller stick.

If you reduce the responsiveness of the stick, then you have a fighter, travelling up to Mach speeds, with a sluggish control stick to allow for a pilot's over compensations. Both sticks rely on the same principles of control, there isn't any advantage of having a longer control stick.

In WWI & II the fighter pilots flew with floor mounted joysticks, similar in length to the guitarstick. Such control devices were acceptable because the fighters flew well under mach speeds and because of this lack of speed the aircraft was much more forgiving to over compesation. The controls were also attached to wires that would require physical exertion to operate the controls, thus leverage was a good thing. There is also the fact that these prop planes never experienced being hit by a missile or a very high calibre round, which would have a greater kinetic impact on the flight of the plane.

It's basic physics, not a matter of thinking outside of the box.

If you hold on to a broomstick attached to a wall and someone pushes you, the distance the end of the broomstick travels will be greater than that of an 8" stick attached to the same wall.

425598[/snapback]

Ok, I'm going to stop giving examples, because that is encouraging thoughts inside of the box.

Some food for thought:

- maybe it is something on the guitar control stick that controls the VF, and not the movements of the guitar control stick itself.

- we're dealing with an anime that has giant transforming airplanes, capable of traveling at speeds in an atmosphere that though has only once shown the effects of air friction at those high speeds, has never shown any of the effects of heat expansion in the materials. In other words, physics (advanced or otherwise,) has no effectiveness in anime, and claiming that anime must conform to the laws of physics, let alone have gadgets that must conform to a reality of physics, is kind of anathema to anime.

- OTEC.

- my point: I don't entirely agree with the control interface in question, my stance is that it is a (story) metaphor for some alternative control interface to what we have seen in Macross anime to date. All I am asking is to keep an open mind about it being an alternative control interface (whether it is a good one or not, is entirely up to you,) that allows for the title characters to complete the tasks placed on them by the storywriters.

[Zinjo]

- my point: I don't entirely agree with the control interface in question, my stance is that it is a (story) metaphor for some alternative control interface to what we have seen in Macross anime to date.  All I am asking is to keep an open mind about it being an alternative control interface (whether it is a good one or not, is entirely up to you,) that allows for the title characters to complete the tasks placed on them by the storywriters.

I understand it is a dramatic device in a fictional SF story.

I am simply saying I don't feel it is a good control device for the vehicle and I am explaining why...

Makes one wonder why SK would go to so much effort to design VF craft that are aerodynamically plausible...

I find it ironic that I have been 'ridiculed' by some for making a statement and ending it with IMO, yet saying "It's just an anime show, exempt from <*place object here*>" is perfectly acceptable. Seems like the same thing just in a different form....

However, I am simply inviting debate on the subject. If there are no takers, then let's move on...

Perhaps back to giant bras and those entities that inhabit them....

[azrael]

I am simply saying I don't feel it is a good control device for the vehicle and I am explaining why...

Makes one wonder why SK would go to so much effort to design VF craft that are aerodynamically plausible...

...

Today's lesson: Stop thinking so hard about something that occurs in fiction. It is a leading cause of brain damage.

Perhaps back to giant bras and those entities that inhabit them....

425767[/snapback]

How about hot mayors in swimsuits? Or hot biker chicks possessed by hot Spiritia hungry life forms that want to make out with you?

Edited August 17, 2006 by azrael

[Keith]

How about hot mayors in swimsuits? Or hot biker chicks possessed by hot Spiritia hungry life forms that want to make out with you?

425775[/snapback]

Don't forget about possessed Akiko & the hot dog...how was this a kiddie who again?

[Lightning]

How about hot mayors in swimsuits? Or hot biker chicks possessed by hot Spiritia hungry life forms that want to make out with you?

425775[/snapback]

Don't forget about possessed Akiko & the hot dog...how was this a kiddie who again?

425790[/snapback]

ya'll say it like it's a "bad" thing....

[Keith]

How about hot mayors in swimsuits? Or hot biker chicks possessed by hot Spiritia hungry life forms that want to make out with you?

425775[/snapback]

Don't forget about possessed Akiko & the hot dog...how was this a kiddie who again?

425790[/snapback]

ya'll say it like it's a "bad" thing....

425799[/snapback]

Not a bad thing at all!

[Kelsain]

I am simply saying I don't feel it is a good control device for the vehicle and I am explaining why...

Nor was I necessarily saying it was. I was just speculating that the difference in controls might have accounted for some of Basara's piloting. Heck, maybe it was less a matter of the controls being better, but just *diffferent*. Perhpas his movement were less predictable to targeting computers and the minds of most pilots b/c he was steering with a big sitck. When you get down to the reality, I think it's over the top too.

Makes one wonder why SK would go to so much effort to design VF craft that are aerodynamically plausible...

What we did get, at least was an explanation for the advanced technology in such a near-timeline setting. While overtechnology was simply dropped in our laps, the benefits were not instant, nor were they just backstory. The continuing understanding of OTEC drives forward and interacts with the plot of the shows, in a way that's more interesting than "We looked at the enemy's new fighter and made this brand new super-weapon from it" - Alright, that's what happened with the sound boosters, but usually it's a bit deeper. Better example, the barrier system. They theorized it would be possible after the fold engines disappeared, but only got it to work so well as the PPB, then much later as the sketchy OmniDB. That approach is more interesting and more grounded than we see in a lot of other anime, TV, or movies.

Perhaps back to giant bras and those entities that inhabit them....

If you consider the engineering patents Victoria's Secret has pending on it's cutting edge bra technology, simply to support C and D cups, think of the suspension technology needed for the Meltrandi! Who live an active, rigorous lifestyle. Now that's overtechnology!

Edited August 17, 2006 by Kelsain

[Zinjo]

How about hot mayors in swimsuits? Or hot biker chicks possessed by hot Spiritia hungry life forms that want to make out with you?

Hmmm, Millia the cougar..... nice....

Is would she be classified as a MILF?

Edited August 17, 2006 by Zinjo

[Keith]

Or would she be classified as MILFia!

[azrael]

The continuing understanding of OTEC drives forward and interacts with the plot of the shows, in a way that's more interesting than "We looked at the enemy's new fighter and made this brand new super-weapon from it" - Alright, that's what happened with the sound boosters, but usually it's a bit deeper. 

425827[/snapback]

You mean the Spiritia absorption gunpod. Because they got that idea after the folks returned from Operation Stargazer with a ship and some fighters.

The Sound Boosters was an idea that Chiba got only after he completed the Sound Energy System. Which goes all the way back to his Sound Energy theory...

[Kelsain]

The continuing understanding of OTEC drives forward and interacts with the plot of the shows, in a way that's more interesting than "We looked at the enemy's new fighter and made this brand new super-weapon from it" - Alright, that's what happened with the sound boosters, but usually it's a bit deeper. 

425827[/snapback]

You mean the Spiritia absorption gunpod. Because they got that idea after the folks returned from Operation Stargazer with a ship and some fighters.

I'd totally forgotten about that when I wrote it! I remember thinking "I haven't seen that before - just picked it up, huh..." Perhaps if they had BUILT a gun using what they'd figured out from the Spiritia zapper on the Panzerzorene. 'Course, that still thwacks my statement on the nose. Do you at least see what I'm getting at? There's *usually* a process to the advancement of technology. Or at least some backstory is implied or hinted at. It did seem to work better in the original SDF, but at least the Sound Energy did have a long progression. I think Chiba was actually retreading the PC achievements in Spiritia tech, myself.

The Sound Boosters was an idea that Chiba got only after he completed the Sound Energy System. Which goes all the way back to his Sound Energy theory...

425853[/snapback]

I guess the thing that bugged me there was that it took 10 or so episodes to flesh out the Sound Energy theory before Chiba put it to practical combat use with the amplifier vests. I expected a few episodes of just those, but bang - next episode - they've got the fully functional Boosters and the ability to use them effectively. I would have preferred a more gradual transition.

[danth]

If you consider the engineering patents Victoria's Secret has pending on it's cutting edge bra technology, simply to support C and D cups, think of the suspension technology needed for the Meltrandi!  Who live an active, rigorous lifestyle. 

Now that's overtechnology! 

425827[/snapback]

No, that's overtheshoulderboulderholdertechnology.

Edited August 17, 2006 by danth

[Sumdumgai]

More for the toy thread, but I want Emilia's Q-rau with a nicely sculpted Emilia figure (not like the pos that came with the Miria Q-rau).

I am attempting to convince my wife to draw more Miria and also draw Emilia. Non-cutesy.

[GrimlockCW]

If you consider the engineering patents Victoria's Secret has pending on it's cutting edge bra technology, simply to support C and D cups, think of the suspension technology needed for the Meltrandi!  Who live an active, rigorous lifestyle. 

Now that's overtechnology! 

425827[/snapback]

No, that's overtheshoulderboulderholdertechnology.

425873[/snapback]

LOL to both, thats just... odd, but it makes you think a bit.

More for the toy thread, but I want Emilia's Q-rau with a nicely sculpted Emilia figure (not like the pos that came with the Miria Q-rau).

I am attempting to convince my wife to draw more Miria and also draw Emilia.  Non-cutesy.

425887[/snapback]

that'd own..

i got the Milia figure and then the set to go with it, the set came with some nicely detailed figures, but i'm glad i baught them on sale for 15 bux, as the materials used are weak :/

okay, i'm done, now resume ignoring me

[Ginrai]

Yes, the clunky part was in reference to the destroids.  They're big & slab-sided like an M1.  Most of the time I'm writing from work, half a sentence here & there, so my thoughts get a little condensed - sorry.  On the valkyries though, there's usually a very sensible-looking combination of sleek aerodynamics and blocky bits (intakes, arms, etc).  I'm in no way an aeronautical engineer, but the appearance gives them a credible link to real world aircraft.  In Mac7, particularly with Mylene's VF-11, all those were sacrificed for appearance.

Look at those two robots right next to each other. They are not that different. The biggest changes are the lower legs, chest, and head. The lack of those fins on the legs and the breasts are aesthetic changes, sure, but they are both really feminine, thin designs. By no means is the regular VF-11 a beefed out powerhouse.

Even the very NAME Valkyrie is feminine. The biggest difference is the head. The regular VF-11 has this robotic, totally inhuman look while the MAXL has a human-ish face, making it something relatable. It's not longer alien and "hostile" by virtue of being "the other" ala Freud.

I also think you overplay the importance of the Destroids. Macross' primary focus has always been on thin, nimble robots/jets that dart around quickly, except when wearing big beefy GBP armored for about ten seconds until it gets all shot up and ejected. Destroids barely exist in any Macross production past the original SDF Macross TV series, where they were totally marginalized, except perhaps in the single episode Hikaru piloted one.

I personally think they also pushed the VF-19 a little too far from the YF-19 by getting rid of all the angles.  I'm also not a big fan of the "thruster ring" cuffs on the legs - I like the look of the individual verniers better.

Isn't that "change" (the angles) also in the VF-19S and such? I think that's less a redesign and more a different artist's style in the animation.

As Zinjo points out, this is a very civil and interesting M7 thread.  Cheers to all.

Yes, thanks everyone for being cool.

Edited August 17, 2006 by Ginrai

[Zinjo]

Or would she be classified as MILFia!

Booooo, I like it...

[Zinjo]

i got the Milia figure and then the set to go with it, the set came with some nicely detailed figures, but i'm glad i baught them on sale for 15 bux, as the materials used are weak :/

The CMS figure of the giant DYRL max apparently fits perfectly inside the Blue Q-Rau toy. Now that's teamwork...

[Zinjo]

Look at those two robots right next to each other. They are not that different. The biggest changes are the lower legs, chest, and head. The lack of those fins on the legs and the breasts are aesthetic changes, sure, but they are both really feminine, thin designs. By no means is the regular VF-11 a beefed out powerhouse.

Well there are several dramatic design departures from the stock VF-11, but you can still tell what fighter chassis it was based on. I am not a fan, but that's me.

I also think you overplay the importance of the Destroids. Macross' primary focus has always been on thin, nimble robots/jets that dart around quickly, except when wearing big beefy GBP armored for about ten seconds until it gets all shot up and ejected. Destroids barely exist in any Macross production past the original SDF Macross TV series, where they were totally marginalized, except perhaps in the single episode Hikaru piloted one.

There is no doubt the mecha stars of the show were the Variable fighters, but the destroyed weren't really marginalized, they were supporting characters at best.

They served a role in Mac Zero and SDFM and then in subsequent series' they were really not necessary to the story, so we don't know how they were deployed post SW1.

I personally think they also pushed the VF-19 a little too far from the YF-19 by getting rid of all the angles.  I'm also not a big fan of the "thruster ring" cuffs on the legs - I like the look of the individual verniers better.

I agree, I prefer the YF-19 and the VF-19A configurations of the fighter. Since I don't recall what the purpose of the thruster cuffs were for or recall ever seeing them in use, I find them aesthetically displeasing (always wanted to use that word ) The shortening of the wings could be explained as necessary for re-entry purposes, but I prefer the early versions of the fighter best.

Isn't that "change" (the angles) also in the VF-19S and such? I think that's less a redesign and more a different artist's style in the animation.

Not really if you compare the old and new chassis, there is differences in the airframe particularly in the wings.

[Ginrai]

There is no doubt the mecha stars of the show were the Variable fighters, but the destroyed weren't really marginalized, they were supporting characters at best. 

They served a role in Mac Zero and SDFM and then in subsequent series' they were really not necessary to the story, so we don't know how they were deployed post SW1.

You have an interesting definition of "characters". Which episodes do Destroids play any kind of plot or story role? The only ones I can think of are the Destroids firing down the end of the Daedalus during the Daedalus Attack , the Destroids shooting up the Zentradi near the end of the series when Hikaru is rescuing Minmay and Kaifun, and Hikaru's starring role in a Spartan. The only time an actual CHARACTER ever pilots a Destroid is Hikaru in that Spartan. The closest Macross 7 gets is the old guys in the Monster in that one episode. The Destroids barely exist in DYRL, Macross 7, and Macross Plus. They have about as much presence in Macross Zero as they do in SDF Macross, which is to say, not very much. Well, I guess there's the 30 seconds of those redesigned Destroids in Macross II getting blown apart if that's what you want...

Not really if you compare the old and new chassis, there is differences in the airframe particularly in the wings.

So the "angles" comment is referring to the redesigned wings?

[David Hingtgen]

The entire LEX area of the VF-19F/S/Kai is different from the YF-19/VF-19A. As in the intakes, seen from above. Go compare line art or the anime. Different placement, different angle. It's probably the most overlooked difference of all.

Here's a quick little drawing--just from memory, won't match exactly, but shows you how the LEX/intakes extends much further forward (to where the canards would be if the F/S models had them)--they "continue the angle" formed by the sides of the intakes, as opposed to how the YF-19 has the front edges angle in sharply.

The SHE VF-19F/S model incorporates this--the extension is a separate piece from the hip, it's on a double-ended hinge that ends up behind the hip in battroid mode, very similar to how I proposed the Yamato YF-19 should do (upper intake lip separate from the hip/intake itself). I don't know if it'd work for Basara's, as his still has canards--they'd be in the way for the transformation of that extension.

PS--the VF-11MAXL differences from the VF-11 are closely based on the F-16XL vs F-16. Even the name came from it. The F-16XL is clearly a personal favorite of Kawamori's, based on how often elements of it show up in his valks.

Edited August 18, 2006 by David Hingtgen