Dam You Macross 7 Dam You #$%#$^#$&^$%&

[sketchley]

I personally think they also pushed the VF-19 a little too far from the YF-19 by getting rid of all the angles.  I'm also not a big fan of the "thruster ring" cuffs on the legs - I like the look of the individual verniers better.

Isn't that "change" (the angles) also in the VF-19S and such? I think that's less a redesign and more a different artist's style in the animation.

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Basically, the change has everything to do with budget. It takes a longer time to draw something with more lines.

On the same token, are the thruster cuffs. Again, it is easier to place and draw them, then the dohickeys on the more liney YF-19.

It's one of the things that I truly admire about the VF designs in Macross 7 - they are both incredibly complex, yet visually simple (as in the number of lines.)

Edited August 18, 2006 by sketchley

[azrael]

It's one of the things that I truly admire about the VF designs in Macross 7 - they are both incredibly complex, yet visually simple (as in the number of lines.)

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This is why we have 2 flavors of lineart, the animated "clean" version and the "detailed" version which we see in close-ups and instances where the mechs are being repaired. Kawamori isn't being lazy, he's being nice to his animators. Imagine drawing panel lines for 50+ episodes...Thankfully, we have CG these days.

[Kelsain]

I also think you overplay the importance of the Destroids. Macross' primary focus has always been on thin, nimble robots/jets that dart around quickly, except when wearing big beefy GBP armored for about ten seconds until it gets all shot up and ejected. Destroids barely exist in any Macross production past the original SDF Macross TV series, where they were totally marginalized, except perhaps in the single episode Hikaru piloted one.

There is no doubt the mecha stars of the show were the Variable fighters, but the destroyed weren't really marginalized, they were supporting characters at best. 

They served a role in Mac Zero and SDFM and then in subsequent series' they were really not necessary to the story, so we don't know how they were deployed post SW1.

Perhaps the term I should have used was "utilitarian" instead of blocky or clunky. The designs of the VF-1, 0, 11, & YF-19 all have a look that put function mostly before form. Obviously, a mecha designer must make his stuff look cool, but all the individual parts made sense. The engine intakes/hips look more like the former than the latter. We can see where external surfaces part to reveal internal components. The YF-21 leans more to the curvy look of M7, but that is usually attributed to it's Q-Rau heritage.

Look at those two robots right next to each other. They are not that different. The biggest changes are the lower legs, chest, and head. The lack of those fins on the legs and the breasts are aesthetic changes, sure, but they are both really feminine, thin designs. By no means is the regular VF-11 a beefed out powerhouse.

I'm not trying to say that I think all mecha should be "beefed out powerhouses." The gracefulness is part of what I love about the stock VF-11, but so is it's utilitarian nature. The single camera eye, the naked back of the shoulders, even the shield with it's stored ammo. At the same time, the battroid is lithe, and the fighter has such grace to it. The 11C fast pasks, like the original VF-1's, aren't pretty by any means - they're angular, ugly missile pods with giant rockets on them - and I like it that way!

I'm quite aware that the destroids, for all their slab-sided uber-tankiness, are just slower cannon fodder for zentradi guns. I think that the Cheyenne in M0 was the best one, b/c of the mobility allowed by the variable legs, but it also sacrificed armor for that. We learned one year later, that this wouldn't matter at all.

I agree, I prefer the YF-19 and the VF-19A configurations of the fighter.  Since I don't recall what the purpose of the thruster cuffs were for or recall ever seeing them in use, I find them aesthetically displeasing (always wanted to use that word  )  The shortening of the wings could be explained as necessary for re-entry purposes, but I prefer the early versions of the fighter best.

Isn't that "change" (the angles) also in the VF-19S and such? I think that's less a redesign and more a different artist's style in the animation.

Below, I've attached a couple of quickly done comparisons of the battroids of the 19 and 11, to illustrate what I'm getting at. The red lines connect areas that are angular and look like interesting components of a transforming vehicle vs ones that are obviously derived from those structures, but less effective visually.

I also have always dug the F-16XL with it's arrowhead delta-wing, and I'd like to see a non-Sound Force VF-11XL. The other reason I'm not a big fan of the MAXL, as I've stated in other threads, is that I LOVE the VF-11.

Edit: There we go, must have missed one.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Kelsain

[azrael]

Edit: Just me or are the quotes acting funny today?

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Yes they work. Fix your quotes gawd dang it. For starters I see a few extra "/quote".

Edited August 18, 2006 by azrael

[Zinjo]

You have an interesting definition of "characters". Which episodes do Destroids play any kind of plot or story role?

It's called continuing along a metaphorical line. I referred to the Valks as "stars", anthropomorphizing them. Hence continuing along that example. As you have already stated, they weren't part of the main story, kinda like supporting cast members, but both the destroids and supporting cast have roles in the universe.

I wouldn't dismiss their roles in the series' as marginal, simply not featured because the story didn't merit it.

Not really if you compare the old and new chassis, there is differences in the airframe particularly in the wings.

So the "angles" comment is referring to the redesigned wings?

In my post it is...

Edited August 18, 2006 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

Basically, the change has everything to do with budget.  It takes a longer time to draw something with more lines.

On the same token, are the thruster cuffs.  Again, it is easier to place and draw them, then the dohickeys on the more liney YF-19.

It's one of the things that I truly admire about the VF designs in Macross 7 - they are both incredibly complex, yet visually simple (as in the number of lines.)

That makes sense.

Many a design has been altered in the interests of budgets.

[Ginrai]

It's called continuing along a metaphorical line.  I referred to the Valks as "stars", anthropomorphizing them.  Hence continuing along that example. As you have already stated, they weren't part of the main story, kinda like supporting cast members, but both the destroids and supporting cast have roles in the universe.

I wouldn't dismiss their roles in the series' as marginal, simply not featured because the story didn't merit it.

I disagree. The Destroids are not supporting characters, they are extras. They don't have speaking roles, they just walk on to provide background flavor to battles where they promptly die. Once in a while they are used en masse as a mob, just like a mob of extras is used in a movie with people and not robots. Kill some Zentradi in a pit, lynch Frankenstein's monster, you know... same thing.

The only Destroid with a speaking role is Hikaru's Spartan.

I find it pretty disingenuous to say that Destroids weren't featured because the story didn't "merit" it. The story was designed to be what it was designed to be. It's not like they made a bunch of robots up and couldn't find room in the story for all of them. The story was about fast little jet/robots from the very beginning. Destroids are background elements.

I think they're cool, but they are a very minor part of Macross and do not help you argue that Macross mecha are bulky and ugly and strictly utilitarian. The Valkyries are a high stylized, lithe, thin little series of robot/jets and they are Macross' main focus.

I do not think they are that realistic and I do think aesthetics is terribly important for them.

If you want to see robots designed to be ugly and bulky and highly "realistic", you need look no further than Votoms, Dougram, Srungle, or any of those other really real robot shows from the early 80's. The Valkyries have a flamboyance that pushes them well into the category of highly stylized robot.

Edited August 18, 2006 by Ginrai

[David Hingtgen]

The front battroid view isn't the best for comparing the VF-19F/S and the YF-19. A surprising amount of stuff simply "disappears" that should clearly be visible based on the rear view (and the sheer fact that it can't just disappear depending on the angle). Notably the LEX/intake extensions----all official rear views and much of the animation show it split apart like I proposed how the Yamato should transform, but it flat-out disappears in frontal views--or merges with other parts in an impossible way. (super-extreme anime magic, even for a valk).

Fighter mode views and rear views of battroid show the changes better. Notably the shoulder/leg integration, and the LEX/intake extension. Also, fighter mode accentuates how much "smoother" the later VF-19's are compared to the original. Battroid is too "split apart" to get across how it all works.

Edited August 19, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Mephistopheles]

The front battroid view isn't the best for comparing the VF-19F/S and the YF-19.  A surprising amount of stuff simply "disappears" that should clearly be visible based on the rear view (and the sheer fact that it can't just disappear depending on the angle).  Notably the LEX/intake extensions----all official rear views and much of the animation show it split apart like I proposed how the Yamato should transform, but it flat-out disappears in frontal views--or merges with other parts in an impossible way.  (super-extreme anime magic, even for a valk).

Fighter mode views and rear views of battroid show the changes better.  Notably the shoulder/leg integration, and the LEX/intake extension.  Also, fighter mode accentuates how much "smoother" the later VF-19's are compared to the original.  Battroid is too "split apart" to get across how it all works.

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And this is why I always liked the VF-0, VF-1 and VF-11. Their transformations are easy to understand and see.

[JB0]

The only Destroid with a speaking role is Hikaru's Spartan.

What about Kamjin's Monster?

I find it pretty disingenuous to say that Destroids weren't featured because the story didn't "merit" it. The story was designed to be what it was designed to be. It's not like they made a bunch of robots up and couldn't find room in the story for all of them. The story was about fast little jet/robots from the very beginning. Destroids are background elements.

You do realize that you're just rephrasing what he said, right?

[sketchley]

The front battroid view isn't the best for comparing the VF-19F/S and the YF-19.  A surprising amount of stuff simply "disappears" that should clearly be visible based on the rear view (and the sheer fact that it can't just disappear depending on the angle).  Notably the LEX/intake extensions----all official rear views and much of the animation show it split apart like I proposed how the Yamato should transform, but it flat-out disappears in frontal views--or merges with other parts in an impossible way.   (super-extreme anime magic, even for a valk).

Fighter mode views and rear views of battroid show the changes better.   Notably the shoulder/leg integration, and the LEX/intake extension.  Also, fighter mode accentuates how much "smoother" the later VF-19's are compared to the original.  Battroid is too "split apart" to get across how it all works.

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And this is why I always liked the VF-0, VF-1 and VF-11. Their transformations are easy to understand and see.

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The VF-11 is actually fairly complicated - especially in the nose transformation/fold. IMHO, the VF-22 is much clearer.

Nevertheless, if we go the opposite route - the SV-51 is just too much. I think my biggest beef in it is that it has far too many seem lines, and not enough body lines - as in clear lines to give an impression of the spaces and volumes of the VF; let alone hints to how it all fits together.

Anyhow... I don't think that we should demand for more realism in VFs. The anime magic is what makes them that much more cool. Let's face it, despite the added realism and lack of anime magic distortions in the Macross 0 VFs, there was something about them that makes them appear less real than classically animated VFs...