Dam You Macross 7 Dam You #$%#$^#$&^$%&

[Zinjo]

I'm still trying to figure out how giant aliens who are freaked out by sex & music is more mature than space monsters in general.

Because it is explained that they have never known such things and as such would be fearful of it as is typical of most people who become afraid of something they don't understand...

Then you apparently missed the part of the series where all that was explained. Max himself hoping for a solution for the fighting that had gone on sanctioned the project years before. Ray, after his friend Stephen died, retired from the military, & wandered around the universe drunk. He crossed path's with Basara, & came up with the general idea after witnissing his determination. Ray got in touch with Kinryu who had been assigned to the 7 fleet, who in turn got in touch with Max, who apparently also had Chiba chewing his ear off about a similar concept. All things came together, Akusho was attached to City 7 as a training ground, Chiba had the custom VF-19 Kai worked up, and Ray instructed Basara on how to fly.

You got me there, I don't ever recall seeing that in the series, I will need to refresh my memory on that point.

Any Arguments regarding "faces" is just inane, mecha having humanoid faces, and or having a camera eye make no difference whatsoever, and comes more down to personal preferance. Hell, Gundam's have been running around with Samurai armor masks since the beginning.

I didn't make any arguments on that subject as it's been debated to death...

The same goes for the guitar shaped control stick, big deal, it still uses the basics of a standard control scheme.

Really? Ask a few pilots and then get back to me on that one....

Nothing you've said here implies anything of a "kiddie" nature. Hell, by that logic, all tenticle rape hentai is "kiddie" because it doesn't feature robots or more standard humanoid aliens?

Actually THAT is YOUR assumption and your logic processes, not mine.

And then you go and claim the AFOS to be more believable, despite its complete & total lack of mechanical parts? None of the  powers (aside from possessoin) are anything that wasn't already shown to be possible with already existing Protoculture technology. For all intents & purposes, they're bio-engineered self aware battleships, be them suped up past anything given to the Zentradi.

Ahh, but they were'nt ships were they, they were Monsters... Had they been similar to Sivil, but capable of taking over any mechanical device or could "become" as powerful as a captial ship, I would have liked them better, but that is my preference. The AFOS doesn't need mechanical parts to do it's job, so why would the PC have grown them?

As for the "devastating effects of war," I still fail to see how you're finding more in SDF Macross than 7. Aside from the bombardment of Earth, there really "aren't" more. I fail to see how someone saying "listen to my song," is somehow worse than someone pulling a trigger, & killing someone. As for the "devastationg effects of wars," the point of 7 was to end a conflict without having to have anyone on either side die, it was specifically goal oriented against further "devastationg effects of wars."

Well since you brought up the GI Joe show.... Kinda sounds familiar huh?

And the only area where it fails that expectation, is tha the main character tries to motivate his opposition "not" to fight instead of killing them? How again is that more childish? Macross 7 is one of the rare occurances of a main character who isn't unsure of himself, isn't moody & brooding, doesn't have to overcome some major shortcoming, & doesn't compromise himself to suit a situation, instead, he chooses to change the situation. Does that make the show somehow childish? If so, I don't see how.

You really must stop trying to assume what my expectations are...

You see your description of Basara is not dramatic, he only sings really well. Where as your description of the character who must overcome obstacles is more dramatic.

My daughter never had much time for dramatic characters, but ones who were flashy or could sing well...she had plenty of time for. Hence my point.

And say what you will about recycled launch sequences & explosions, but in 52 episodes, there was not even one clip show. That's almost unheard of even today.

True. Had the show that started it all been given 52 episodes, it would have faced the same issues. That doesn't mean it would be any less annoying...

Edited August 13, 2006 by Zinjo

[Zinjo]

Continued....

Sure,

-Bridge Bunnies - Check

The Mac 7 bridge bunnies were much cuter than SDF...

-Love triangle - Check (several actually)

Abandonment by the U.N. Spacy brass - Check

Huh? They were light years away and able to communicate regularly, exactly how did they get abandoned

-Ineffectiveness & surviving by the skin of their teeth against a more advanced threat - Check

-Enemy infiltration into the civillian populace - Check

-Crazy mis-folds - Check

-The distinguishing between an "artist & an idol - Check

I'm not quite sure about that last one.

etc. Just about every major & minor theme that was covered in Macross TV is still present in 7.

If they were so similar, then why all the debates? Clearly a change was made. IMO it was that the target audience was a younger age for Mac 7 than SDFM and thus what worked for one audience doesn't work for another.

To deny this reality is only to fool one's self.

[Zinjo]

Kinyru, Physica, & Gigil were the 3 big main cast deaths. With the implied loss of the populace of the Megaroad-13.

None were principal characters, they were supporting at best, except for Gigil and frankly I was never drawn in enough to his tragedy to really care that he died. Physica was given some background, but only in an attempt to garner the audience's sympathy. Kind of too little too late.

In SDF you have 2 main characters and a few related characters who die. You get to know Kakizaki and Roy and when they fall you have an emotional response to it. When Admiral Hayse goes up with the Grand Canon you can empathyse with Misa, I never developed any care for the fates of Kinyru, Physica or Gigil.

I felt for Sivil and even a bit of sympathy for Basra's attempts to revive her, but not much more than that.

The same thing goes for the Megaroad 13 populace. OK they possibly died... and?

It's like watching a Star Trek episode, it's an interesting piece of information that explains part of the story, but has no real impact on the viewer. You can't dismiss the tragedy, but you don't really care about the people either, because the viewer was completely insulated from the incident.

[danth]

Wow, can you watch it with the f*cking spoilers, people? God damn. Some of us are still watching this series.

[Zinjo]

Wow, can you watch it with the f*cking spoilers, people? God damn. Some of us are still watching this series.

SH*T sorry dude!

Actually this is the worst thread to read if you haven't seen the series yet.

You should form your own opinions on the series before reading this.

Edited August 14, 2006 by Zinjo

[Keith]

Most of the pilots on the battlefield weren't even allowed faces, much less voices.

Except that one guy screaming into his helmet while they sucked his spiritia out, and he was a metric buttload of pilots' face.

I doubt Gamlin was calling in just to be a whiny crybaby.

It's safe to assume Basara WAS a nuisance.

It's safe to assume nothing of the sort. Had Basara been that large of a problem, pilots would have been in an upgroar, nothing happened, and obviously Gamlin was the only one with a problem. Docker, Physica, & Kinryu all seemed to get by fine. Gamlin however had a strict sense of "order," and an unknown on the battlefield more than anything is what bugged him.

I never got the impression he actually LIKED Basara's music, though.

He just ceased to hate Basara with the burning heat of a thousand suns and acknowledged that Basara DID have talent, even if he didn't care for the music.

And yet Gamlin would be the first in line to hear Mylene...

And that still doesn't change the fact that they used Basara as an instrument of torture.

Aside from the fact that never happend you mean?

Random thought: given that the usual view of rock music is "louder = better", it's highly possible Chiba had things turned up way too loud for Gamlin and was causing him physical pain.

Doubtful, he was still a doctor afterall.

I'm just saying that adults typically acknowledge that the world isn't an ideal place, and that idealism often has to be set aside for reality(like Hikaru setting his "war = bad" idealism aside for the defense of the Macross, and ultimately humanity itself).

And I'm just saying that the concept of following an ideal doesn't make something "kiddie."

Rampant idealism is typically a sign of a kiddie show.

I thought rampant violence was a typical sign of a kiddie show.

Basara never questions the idea that there's a non-violent solution to everything.

What's more, he never questions that the solution is people listening to his song. He either blames everyone around him when his singing fails or assumes he just isn't good enough.

The opposite could just as easily be said. Most characters in many series never even entertain the notion that there's a non-violent solution to everything. It's far more common to just pull the trigger & be done with it. And the reason he never questions that the solution is that people listen to his song is the core of what Macross has always been about. If one person shares their emotions with another (through the medium of music), they will be able to move that persons heart. In the original series, it was instigated through music, then carried out through full exposure to human culture/way of life. The Zentradi decided they would rather enjoy the new feelings & things they were experiencing, than destroy it & continue roving the galaxy. That's what lead to the rebellion of the Britai Adoclas fleet.

The same applies here, Basara know's that regardless of whether people like his music or not, if they can feel the emotion he's putting into it, they'll understand what he's trying to say.

Gamlin & Mylene were interesting because they were placed there to grow to the point Basara had already been at.

But the focus was on Basara, not Gamlin and Mylene's adaption to him. Those story angles were sacrificed several times for the sake of more Basara.

And why exactly shouldn't the focus be on Basara? As I said, Gamlin & Mylene were secondary characters who's purpose it was to grow past the specific skeptacism that certain people would have to such a situation. And in that task they succeeded.

QUOTE

As I said, Basara had no conflicts, problems, etc, because he already had his sh!t together from the start. Everyone else was playing catch up. That hardly makes him a flat character.

Yes, it does. He's a static and unchanging fixture in the show.

What need was there for him to change. He was right, he knew he was right, and it was everyone else around him who had to change to realise that. Basara's growth was that of effectiveness. He started out with an ideal, and grew in strength enough to realise that ideal.

I'm just saying that Basara's character could've been developed through backstory without altering his character signifigantly.

A single flashback of him trying to move a mountain with his song isn't my idea of character development, or even establishment.

And yet it was, that single bit defines exactly who Basara is. Doesn't matter where he comes from, doesn't matter where he's going, Basara is Basara.

QUOTE

Macross 7 also only pursued one major point.

SDF Macross had many concurrent major threads. Some were fully realized, others were truncated or abandoned.

Fair enough.

Personally, I don't think Mac7's version would fit in the setting of SDF Macross.

Despite the fact that the groundwork was already layed down for it? You'll recall that the Zentradi mistook Kaifun's movie antics for an ancient secret weapon. And while I've lost since lost the newsgroup article. There was an old post by one of the Macross Plus translaters who claimed that he heard from the Nue staff that many aspects of 7 were originally intended for the initial 52 episode layout of SDF Macross. While I obvioulsy can't comfirm that, I've always found it interesting.

Because it is explained that they have never known such things and as such would be fearful of it as is typical of most people who become afraid of something they don't understand...

Did I mention the fact that they were giant space aliens who were freaked out by sex & music? You can't call one seriouisly hard sci-fi, & the other silly, without coming off as a hypocrite.

Really? Ask a few pilots and then get back to me on that one....

Conventions are only conventions because they're the accepted norm. That doesn't make them the only way to do things, or even the right way to do things. Saying that using a flight stick shaped like one thing is more viable than using a flight stick shaped like another thing specifically based on what's normal & what's uncommon is...silly.

QUOTE(Keith @ Aug 12 2006, 01:36 AM)

And then you go and claim the AFOS to be more believable, despite its complete & total lack of mechanical parts? None of the powers (aside from possessoin) are anything that wasn't already shown to be possible with already existing Protoculture technology. For all intents & purposes, they're bio-engineered self aware battleships, be them suped up past anything given to the Zentradi.

Ahh, but they were'nt ships were they, they were Monsters... Had they been similar to Sivil, but capable of taking over any mechanical device or could "become" as powerful as a captial ship, I would have liked them better, but that is my preference. The AFOS doesn't need mechanical parts to do it's job, so why would the PC have grown them?.

Actually, they were as powerful as any capitol ship, that was the point. The protocutlre simply blended their advanced warship technology, with their advanced genetics technology, and created living weapons. The Evil series (bodies which were possessed by the Protodevelin) were no more "monsters' than the Zentradi. For a similar convention, look at Farscape. Biologically created ships with weapons are a convention in that seires, and not considered "space monsters," nor should the Protodevelin be considered here. All of the abilities they showed (aside from possession, which wasn't in their original design). were biological representations of features already existing in overtech. Space Fold, Barrier shields, energy weapons, all pre-existing tech. The AFOS's design was also along similar lines. You'll recall the research scientists on the carrier commenting how its organs are similar to the technology found in the Macross. Had the Protoculture not fallen, likely all of their technology would have gone that route.

Well since you brought up the GI Joe show.... Kinda sounds familiar huh?

Not at all similar, had censors allowed them to kill characters there, they would have. As is, they were restricted to having parachutes & exploding robots due to broadcast standards. Anime has no such conventions in place.

You really must stop trying to assume what my expectations are...

You see your description of Basara is not dramatic, he only sings really well. Where as your description of the character who must overcome obstacles is more dramatic.

My daughter never had much time for dramatic characters, but ones who were flashy or could sing well...she had plenty of time for. Hence my point.

Actually, Basara's abilities have little to do with how well he signs. His power comes from his passion, not from his voice. Music is only the medium through which he applies it. Basara could just as easily have the same effect if his passion was knitting, carpentry, screwing, peeing, or killing. Since Macross's theme has always been music, that's the chosen way he expresses himself. But if you strip away the songs you still have the passion, and that's what's creating the anima spiritia.

True. Had the show that started it all been given 52 episodes, it would have faced the same issues. That doesn't mean it would be any less annoying...

All I'm saying is that 9 out of 10 anime series have just as much recycled footage, be it launch sequences, henshin poses, special attacks, or what not. 7 shouldn't be judged any more harsly than them, especially since 7 didn't rely on a clip show episode to stay on budget, when the average for a series that long is to have at least 2 clip shows. Hell, look at the SEED's, there are more recycled animations & clip shows than anything previous.

Huh? They were light years away and able to communicate regularly, exactly how did they get abandoned

Are you sure you watched this show? The Galaxy network keeps all of the colony fleets in contact with each other & earth through fold communications (fold communications have existed since the first series). Assumedly, the technology allows instantanious transmission in much the same way that fold travel allows instantanious travel. Anyway, the U.N. Spacy brass decided to sacrifice the 7 fleet to the Protodevelin, since they were the only thing that the Protodevelin seemed to take interest in. Max however went against orders, and decided to keep fighting against the Protodevelin anyway.

I'm not quite sure about that last one.

Artist = Firebomber. Idol = Jammingbirds.

If they were so similar, then why all the debates? Clearly a change was made. IMO it was that the target audience was a younger age for Mac 7 than SDFM and thus what worked for one audience doesn't work for another.

Because people get too wrapped up in the superficial aspects. Shooting verses singing, a hero who gung-kills as opposed to one who sings.

To deny this reality is only to fool one's self.

And to dislike something because it looks different, despite being the same, is to be prejudice

None were principal characters, they were supporting at best, except for Gigil and frankly I was never drawn in enough to his tragedy to really care that he died. Physica was given some background, but only in an attempt to garner the audience's sympathy. Kind of too little too late.

In SDF you have 2 main characters and a few related characters who die. You get to know Kakizaki and Roy and when they fall you have an emotional response to it. When Admiral Hayse goes up with the Grand Canon you can empathyse with Misa, I never developed any care for the fates of Kinyru, Physica or Gigil.

I felt for Sivil and even a bit of sympathy for Basra's attempts to revive her, but not much more than that.

Kakizaki was hardly more of a main character than Kinryu or Physica, and definately less of one than Gigil. As for the rest, that's more personal preference than anything.

The same thing goes for the Megaroad 13 populace. OK they possibly died... and?

It's like watching a Star Trek episode, it's an interesting piece of information that explains part of the story, but has no real impact on the viewer. You can't dismiss the tragedy, but you don't really care about the people either, because the viewer was completely insulated from the incident.

It's not like you were introduced to the millions of people on Earth who died either. One is hardly less tragic than the other.

[JB0]

I never got the impression he actually LIKED Basara's music, though.

He just ceased to hate Basara with the burning heat of a thousand suns and acknowledged that Basara DID have talent, even if he didn't care for the music.

And yet Gamlin would be the first in line to hear Mylene...

GO HORMONES!

And that still doesn't change the fact that they used Basara as an instrument of torture.

Aside from the fact that never happend you mean?

I thought forcing people to listen to music was an accepted psych warfare tactic.

Random thought: given that the usual view of rock music is "louder = better", it's highly possible Chiba had things turned up way too loud for Gamlin and was causing him physical pain.

Doubtful, he was still a doctor afterall.

A HIGHLY eccentric one.

And was he established as a medical doctor?

But the focus was on Basara, not Gamlin and Mylene's adaption to him. Those story angles were sacrificed several times for the sake of more Basara.

And why exactly shouldn't the focus be on Basara?

Because once the character is established, he rapidly falls into boring.

What need was there for him to change. He was right, he knew he was right, and it was everyone else around him who had to change to realise that. Basara's growth was that of effectiveness. He started out with an ideal, and grew in strength enough to realise that ideal.

Like I said, it makes him boring.

I'm just saying that Basara's character could've been developed through backstory without altering his character signifigantly.

A single flashback of him trying to move a mountain with his song isn't my idea of character development, or even establishment.

And yet it was, that single bit defines exactly who Basara is. Doesn't matter where he comes from, doesn't matter where he's going, Basara is Basara.

Unfortunately, the refusal to allow the audience to experience the birth of the state of existence that is Basara-ness places him in the same category as a Gundam Wing pilot. He exists not as a character, but as a plot device.

Despite the fact that the groundwork was already layed down for it? You'll recall that the Zentradi mistook Kaifun's movie antics for an ancient secret weapon.

They were also incredibly naive and gullible. They had no concept of fiction, and ASSUMED they were watching a historical documentary.

It actually reminds me of the movie Galaxy Quest.

And while I've lost since lost the newsgroup article. There was an old post by one of the Macross Plus translaters who claimed that he heard from the Nue staff that many aspects of 7 were originally intended for the initial 52 episode layout of SDF Macross. While I obvioulsy can't comfirm that, I've always found it interesting.

I've heard that before too.

It's definitely interesting, as is the question "how much did it change between original conception and realization."

Sort of like Star Wars prequels(but far less craptacular), it seems that what happened wasn't the concept as originally envisioned.

Actually, Basara's abilities have little to do with how well he signs. His power comes from his passion, not from his voice. Music is only the medium through which he applies it. Basara could just as easily have the same effect if his passion was knitting, carpentry, screwing, peeing, or killing. Since Macross's theme has always been music, that's the chosen way he expresses himself. But if you strip away the songs you still have the passion, and that's what's creating the anima spiritia.

*chuckles*

LISTEN TO MY PISS!!!!!

[Zinjo]

Despite the fact that the groundwork was already layed down for it? You'll recall that the Zentradi mistook Kaifun's movie antics for an ancient secret weapon.

They were also incredibly naive and gullible. They had no concept of fiction, and ASSUMED they were watching a historical documentary.

It actually reminds me of the movie Galaxy Quest.

"Basara, Youuu are our only hope......"

LOL

[Kelsain]

Finally finished the series myself. Harking back to the origin of this post, I wasn't too disappointed, b/c I kindof already know what was coming. However, I'll concede that it was a little anticlimactic. I think the time between Operation Stargazer and the last 3 eps could have been better spent building up the climax and giving a little more time for things to happen. The whole plot got wrapped up in about 5 minutes. I think either a little more time for the actual climax, or some more to the denoument, rather than silent vingettes through the end credits would have made it better.

I bought M+ as it was being released by Manga here - which was probably more-or-less concurrent with the broadcast of M7. I've had the TIA book since about then too. All in all, I've got 10 years of reading and seeing pics from M7 before ever watching it. Been a member here for a couple years and read of all the controversy, but finally decided to judge it myself. I was sad that it was coming to an end, but pretty surprised that BAM!, it was over like that.

All in all, I liked it. Had a few issues with it (the whole permeable dome thing from a while back among others), but I think I'm with Keith that it was an overall succesful sequel in the franchise. I have Dynamite7 on deck, but decided to let M7 digest a little while first. Also, does anyone know of a good place to dl the Movie and/or M7Encore? All the torrents I've found are ancient and have only 3 or 4 seeds. Therefore, looking at like 25 hours to dl each.

I'm also eager to watch M0 again, and revaluate how its piece fits in the puzzle.

[Zinjo]

Did I mention the fact that they were giant space aliens who were freaked out by sex & music? You can't call one seriouisly hard sci-fi, & the other silly, without coming off as a hypocrite.

Which part? The giants? Their ignorant fear of something they don't understand? I find no hypocricy there... Sounds very plausible in an SF universe.

Conventions are only conventions because they're the accepted norm. That doesn't make them the only way to do things, or even the right way to do things. Saying that using a flight stick shaped like one thing is more viable than using a flight stick shaped like another thing specifically based on what's normal & what's uncommon is...silly.

When you've talked to a pilot, we'll discuss this one further...

For all intents & purposes, they're bio-engineered self aware battleships, be them suped up past anything given to the Zentradi.

Actually, they were as powerful as any capitol ship, that was the point.

Ok so then according to you which are they? PC built bio-engineered ships or self aware ships?

I don't dispute the technology that created them, I personally feel the adversary of the series could have been better and didn't need to be Giant space monsters.

Not at all similar, had censors allowed them to kill characters there, they would have. As is, they were restricted to having parachutes & exploding robots due to broadcast standards. Anime has no such conventions in place.

Not so.... GI Joe was a contemporary of Robowreck and RT showed the deaths of Kakizaki and Roy. There was a parental outcry over it, but the show wasn't shut down, nor were the episodes ever censored. The sanitizing of Joe was done by the producers not the censors. Hell it was the Regan 80s, guns were good!

Actually, Basara's abilities have little to do with how well he signs.

That wasn't my point. My point is that he wasn't a dramatic character who took time to grow, thus a perfect hero for a kid...

Because people get too wrapped up in the superficial aspects. Shooting verses singing, a hero who gung-kills as opposed to one who sings.

That's true, Mac 7 was very superficial compared to SDFM, hence the debate. Superficiality works for a younger audience, older audiences like adolescents and over tend to be attracted to more dramatic stories and themes.

And to dislike something because it looks different, despite being the same, is to be prejudice

Looks have little to do with it, I've already stated my specific reasons and they are not based on ignorance.

[Zinjo]

thanks Keith, you made the points better than I could on Zinjo's comments. I somewhat expect another "its my opinion" statement coming.

Yes well Noyhauser we are well aware of how many Mac 7 lovers "hate" differing "opinions", not all, but several.

Kinda makes respecting their arguments difficult, when they refuse to respect the arguments of others....

[Ginrai]

It's called a flat character.

One of my major gripes with Macross 7 is that Basara has no character growth, either in "real-time" or backstory.

Were he a secondary character, this would be acceptable. But he's not interesting enough to be the lead, and he steals camera time from far more compelling characters. Gamlin and Mylene would've both made far better main characters.

Mylene is the main character. She is the outsider who has to have everything introduced to her, therefore the one you can relate to. She is the one who the love triangle centers on (she has two boys to pick from, just like Hikaru had two girls to pick from), she is the one who goes through a harsh learning curve, she is the one directly related to characters from the original Macross, she is the one piloting the VF-1J in the Macross homage... The only reason people don't recognize her as the main character, IMO, is that she is a girl.

She's the one who develops as a character.

Edited August 14, 2006 by Ginrai

[Ginrai]

Wow, can you watch it with the f*cking spoilers, people? God damn. Some of us are still watching this series.

424937[/snapback]

Yeah, how dare we spoil a show that's over ten years old. There's no way you could have seen it by now! Go to another thread.

[sketchley]

Conventions are only conventions because they're the accepted norm. That doesn't make them the only way to do things, or even the right way to do things. Saying that using a flight stick shaped like one thing is more viable than using a flight stick shaped like another thing specifically based on what's normal & what's uncommon is...silly.

When you've talked to a pilot, we'll discuss this one further...

425043[/snapback]

He's got a good point, you know. Just think of our illustrious past - the Earth was flat, the sun orbits the Earth... you know, conventions that existed for a long, long time. People were even killed in their valiant attempts to change the convention.

Yes, I think that a guitar control interface is a weird concept. That said, I am not a guitarist, and I do have a suspicion that a guitarist (singing or probably not) would feel more comfortable holding and using an interface/control stick in the shape of something that they have most likely spent half of their life holding. At the very least, it's the security blanket aspect of it.

Now I'm off on a crusade to have the standard qwerty keyboard layout changed - because that's one convention that's got to go!

[Sumdumgai]

It's called a flat character.

One of my major gripes with Macross 7 is that Basara has no character growth, either in "real-time" or backstory.

Were he a secondary character, this would be acceptable. But he's not interesting enough to be the lead, and he steals camera time from far more compelling characters. Gamlin and Mylene would've both made far better main characters.

Mylene is the main character. She is the outsider who has to have everything introduced to her, therefore the one you can relate to. She is the one who the love triangle centers on (she has two boys to pick from, just like Hikaru had two girls to pick from), she is the one who goes through a harsh learning curve, she is the one directly related to characters from the original Macross, she is the one piloting the VF-1J in the Macross homage... The only reason people don't recognize her as the main character, IMO, is that she is a girl.

She's the one who develops as a character.

425052[/snapback]

Actually it fits that Mylene is the main character. I tend to have this thing where I feel like killing the main character. I wanted to kill Hikaru in Macross, I wanted to hit Isamu in the head with a really heavy rock in M+, and I wanted to smash Shin's head into something whenever he'd freak out. And I want to throw Seiya down a cliff from Saint Seiya. I wanted to stick the pointy end of a sword into Parn's chest from Lodoss.

On the other hand I do like Bean Bandit, Rally Vincent, Spike Speagel, and Leona Ozaki.

And I couldn't stand Hibiki Kanzaki in MII, I wanted to strangle him nice and slow like.

Something always bugs the hell out of me with main characters. Some more or less than others.

[Noyhauser]

thanks Keith, you made the points better than I could on Zinjo's comments. I somewhat expect another "its my opinion" statement coming.

Yes well Noyhauser we are well aware of how many Mac 7 lovers "hate" differing "opinions", not all, but several.

Kinda makes respecting their arguments difficult, when they refuse to respect the arguments of others....

425045[/snapback]

Right, well you can sit on your own biases too then. I've never said that Macross 7 was the end all be all of all anime, not even close, its probably wouldn't make it into my top 10 anime, frankly for many of the reasons people have raised. I can recognize its faults and problems, and I've been willing to dish on them in this thread.

What I take exception to was your continual posts calling it a Kids show, when it wasn't anymore than SDF macross was. You continually dropped in these comments without any sort of debate at all, preferring to fire off comments that essentially said it was your opinion, when it was highly contestable whether that was true. Now that you're at least opening up to debate we can go over some of these.

Ok so then according to you which are they? PC built bio-engineered ships or self aware ships?

I don't dispute the technology that created them, I personally feel the adversary of the series could have been better and didn't need to be Giant space monsters.

Please don't take things out of context to prove your point, he said for "all intents and purposes" which means they would serve a role as centerpieces for fleet action. The mode by which the Protoculture built these creations was not through shipyards but bio-engineering. Its not that hard to get that. And lets be perfectly frank here, Neo Genesis Evangeleon is being shown at the same time, and in conception were far more "unrealistic" than the PD. In conception was the PD "giant space monsters"? Clearly not, and I think thats the key point. In portrayal were they? Maybe a bit, but when viewed with the back story about what they were and where they came from, its definately not. I think they didn't trasnlate well with the reduced budget they got for art. I think the best example of this is in the movie, where they get better animation, and they look ALOT better and a lot less "monsterish."

That wasn't my point. My point is that he wasn't a dramatic character who took time to grow, thus a perfect hero for a kid...

You keep focusing on Basara, who doesn't change as much as other characters. Clearly Gamlin, and Mylene change big time, as does Gigil. On that note, I don't consider Gigil a "minor character" I'll put money down that Gigil recieved more screen time than Focker ever did in SDF Macross, and played a major role in altering the story.

And the depths of the changes for other characters were quite substantial. Mylene goes from being a annoying brat to someone who understands the responsibility on her shoulders.

I understand and even partially agree with JBO's point that basara is more of a plot piece than a character (I think he is both), but he does change perceptably. At the start of the series he's completely against all military people, and rebels against everything, letting anger get the better of himself. the episode where he fires the missiles at Grabil and Gamlin blocks it, is a minor turning point. He suffers his own crisis of faith at several different points, (the death of Gigil being one of them). Yes his basic point is the same from the beginning to end, but its not rigid and he doubts himself.

Are you sure you watched this show? The Galaxy network keeps all of the colony fleets in contact with each other & earth through fold communications (fold communications have existed since the first series). Assumedly, the technology allows instantanious transmission in much the same way that fold travel allows instantanious travel. Anyway, the U.N. Spacy brass decided to sacrifice the 7 fleet to the Protodevelin, since they were the only thing that the Protodevelin seemed to take interest in. Max however went against orders, and decided to keep fighting against the Protodevelin anyway.

Didn't UN spacy order Max to launch an attack on the planet holding the PD's bodies? And as a result he was forced to carry out Stargazer in order not to sacrafice the whole fleet in a pointless battle that would give his fleet a 0.0001% chance of success? Giving them permission to use their nuclear weapons to me seems to be no different than when UN Spacy gave the SDF macross macross before they sent them off to space to certain death.

Edited August 14, 2006 by Noyhauser

[Zinjo]

What I take exception to was your continual posts calling it a Kids show, when it wasn't anymore than SDF macross was. You continually dropped in these comments without any sort of debate at all, preferring to fire off comments that essentially said it was your opinion, when it was highly contestable whether that was true. Now that you're at least opening up to debate we can go over some of these.

My opinion is exactly that, entirely subjective. I don't expect to change Keith's mind about Macross 7 anymore than I expect him to change mine. On subjects that I felt were going nowhere or could go nowhere, I would close with "IMO", since it is a preference issue, that is individually subjective. I don't apologize for such posts.

I am fully aware that SDFM was a kids show, but it clearly wasn't targeted for the same age group as M7, which is my position. Younger kids can suspend disbelieve on a wider range of things and don't require as much drama to be entertained as opposed to older ones in the adolescent ranges.

Please don't take things out of context to prove your point, he said for "all intents and purposes" which means they would serve a role as centerpieces for fleet action. The mode by which the Protoculture built these creations was not through shipyards but bio-engineering. Its not that hard to get that.

Please re-read the quotes I am referring to. In one paragraph the PD are proported to be self aware "captial ships", in the next they are possessed "capital ships" ( I use the term capital ships, because the larger ones had the power and size of one, no other reason), I want to know what Keith is describing them to be as there is a contradiction in his explanation.

You keep focusing on Basara, who doesn't change as much as other characters. Clearly Gamlin, and Mylene change big time, as does Gigil. On that note, I don't consider Gigil a "minor character" I'll put money down that Gigil recieved more screen time than Focker ever did in SDF Macross, and played a major role in altering the story.

On the contrary, I am responding to comments made by Keith to someone else who brought up how "flat" Basra is as a character.

I never stated Gigil was a minor character, Keith assumed I did. I stated I didn't become emotionally attached to his tragedy and thus didn't care much about his death. I was more touched by the whole Basara / Sivil story arc than anything Gigil did.

And the depths of the changes for other characters were quite substantial. Mylene goes from being a annoying brat to someone who understands the responsibility on her shoulders.

Which is why I like the Mylene character the best out of all the characters in the show, Sivil was second. Both grew a lot during the series.

I understand and even partially agree with JBO's point that basara is more of a plot piece than a character (I think he is both), but he does change perceptably. At the start of the series he's completely against all military people, and rebels against everything, letting anger get the better of himself. the episode where he fires the missiles at Grabil and Gamlin blocks it, is a minor turning point. He suffers his own crisis of faith at several different points, (the death of Gigil being one of them). Yes his basic point is the same from the beginning to end, but its not rigid and he doubts himself.

Maybe so, but not enough for people to identify with him. He's the super hero of the story and for kids that's great, but for older viewers not so much.

The only time I truly empathized with the character was when he took personal responsibility for what happened to Sivil and tried to revive her. He came across as actually "human".

[Noyhauser]

Please don't take things out of context to prove your point, he said for "all intents and purposes" which means they would serve a role as centerpieces for fleet action. The mode by which the Protoculture built these creations was not through shipyards but bio-engineering. Its not that hard to get that.

Please re-read the quotes I am referring to. In one paragraph the PD are proported to be self aware "captial ships", in the next they are possessed "capital ships" ( I use the term capital ships, because the larger ones had the power and size of one, no other reason), I want to know what Keith is describing them to be as there is a contradiction in his explanation.

Thats actually a pretty good description of it. The PD originally were that, massive bio weapons that used energy from a sub universe. They were probably not much more intelligent than regular zentredi. Then they were possessed by the PD, who were beings from this sub universe.

(bit pressed for time)

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Yeah, how dare we spoil a show that's over ten years old. There's no way you could have seen it by now! Go to another thread.

The same thing happened when I revealed something in space cruiser yamato. I remember someone was really offended that I spoiled the story for him. It's not the poster's job to have to pander to the lurker who can't be bothered to even watch the show and contribute something to the discussion. I mean come on, if I said "darth vader is luke's dad" on a science fiction forum where an overwhelming majority has seen the movie, it wouldn't really be considered spoiler material due to how old it is, so the same logic would apply to older anime.

There should be an expiry date on when people can complain to others about having a story spoiled for them imo. For animes of a certain age: it is up to the reader's to make certain they enter only threads marked "spoiler free" and assume that if that label isn't there, then it WILL contain spoilers so they enter at thier own risk. (and not the other way around: the poster's have to use hidden text to please the few)

As for whether macross 7 is for kids: maybe it is because it is a lot more light hearted and hopeful than stuff like macross plus or SDF:Macross. In macross humans are grossly outnumbered and in danger of becoming extinct. People's dreams are crushed, misa's boyfriend is dead, hikaru has to write the letters to the parents informing them of the deaths of thier children, half the time the main characters have problems like turning up to a date late, the fear of dying in combat, the shouldering of more responsibility that it makes for good drama. In dyrl they play with the idea of men and women fighting with each other. In the original tv series there is conflict: kaifun vs the military, the military against aliens, defected aliens against their leaders, crazed lunatics against the alien sympathisers, humans and aliens vs the crazed lunatic's forces etc... lot of conflict between all the groups in the story so it is more complicated.

But in macross 7, each episode had a "forumla" to it that it made it seem like a super robot show where the main character was pretty much invincible. I can't explain it. But you know when they fake deaths in marvel comics and it cheapens things because you no that know one ever dies in the marvel universe? Well they did it for the main characters like gamlin and basara. I think the episode is even titled "basara dies" just to trick you Now compare that to the death in macross plus (guld dying) or macross zero: victory is more bitter-sweet. There are huge losses, people suffer, and the world continues and they sort of bounce back.

But the danger is there and it keeps me watching the show because I wonder: who is going to live through it? If you watch macross for the first time, you might wonder: Will hikaru live through it, right before he says to minmay that he loves her and he might not come back? (because it looks like there is a great chance that he won't) As a watcher you keep watching to see what is going to happen: will he live? So I didn't get that feeling in 7. The story took a much lighter tone, deaths were cheapened in a "marvel comics universe" way and they stretched the story out to too many episodes. Similar to how sometimes a movie compresses and simplifies a story too much and we miss out on stuff, but the opposite of that: taking too long to tell the story and making the series feel like there is too many filler eps. Sivil going into hibernation was one of the more boring parts for example. She just sits in a tree for aaaages and the whole story is just one guy singing to wake her up. Same thing for when she fell asleep in a mountain and the whole ep was about just them climbing the mountain. The pacing felt a bit slow, like they were stretching it out.

Edited August 15, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[JB0]

It's called a flat character.

One of my major gripes with Macross 7 is that Basara has no character growth, either in "real-time" or backstory.

Were he a secondary character, this would be acceptable. But he's not interesting enough to be the lead, and he steals camera time from far more compelling characters. Gamlin and Mylene would've both made far better main characters.

Mylene is the main character. She is the outsider who has to have everything introduced to her, therefore the one you can relate to. She is the one who the love triangle centers on (she has two boys to pick from, just like Hikaru had two girls to pick from), she is the one who goes through a harsh learning curve, she is the one directly related to characters from the original Macross, she is the one piloting the VF-1J in the Macross homage... The only reason people don't recognize her as the main character, IMO, is that she is a girl.

She's the one who develops as a character.

425052[/snapback]

Gamlin goes through a similar, though less pronounced, process. Even gets time in the 1J(and blows it up... stupid Gamlin...). Admittedly, he also gets 50% less romantic interests.

But while Mylene is the most interesting character(Sorry, Gamlin fans), Basara is the one the "camera" focuses on. Mylene's presence is sacrificed if it threatens to take too much time from Basara, which places restrictions on how much character development they can do. It really felt like they aborted and abreviated a few plot threads because of it.

Basara's the star, regardless of whether or not he's up to the task.

[Zinjo]

But while Mylene is the most interesting character(Sorry, Gamlin fans), Basara is the one the "camera" focuses on. Mylene's presence is sacrificed if it threatens to take too much time from Basara, which places restrictions on how much character development they can do. It really felt like they aborted and abreviated a few plot threads because of it.

Basara's the star, regardless of whether or not he's up to the task.

After mentioning it, it occured to me that Basara was written much like a super hero for the show, they guy can sing spiritia, fly like an ace and has no "apparent" flaws that he needs to grow out of and has a mysterious past that no one knows about really.

It's like watching a Macross Superman, he just don't seem human... Hell one could start a whole new thread debating whether the guy is actually human at all, considering how enigmatic his past is and how unnaturally powerful he appears to be...

It also explains why I didn't really care for him at all. I don't much care for Superman, I'm more of a Batman or Spiderman kinda guy...

[Keith]

Didn't UN spacy order Max to launch an attack on the planet holding the PD's bodies? And as a result he was forced to carry out Stargazer in order not to sacrafice the whole fleet in a pointless battle that would give his fleet a 0.0001% chance of success? Giving them permission to use their nuclear weapons to me seems to be no different than when UN Spacy gave the SDF macross macross before they sent them off to space to certain death.

No, Stargazer was Max's idea, which is why it involved so few ships in a last ditch effort to protect the fleet. If anything, the U.N. Spacy would have been against that, as the loss of the 7 fleet would have resulted in the Protodevelin searching out a new target.

Please re-read the quotes I am referring to. In one paragraph the PD are proported to be self aware "captial ships", in the next they are possessed "capital ships" ( I use the term capital ships, because the larger ones had the power and size of one, no other reason), I want to know what Keith is describing them to be as there is a contradiction in his explanation.

As Noyhauser already pointed out, the "Protodevelin" possession of the Evil Series wasn't in their original specs. They had actually been designed many years before, but weren't feasable for combat given their power limitations. When the Protoculture learned how to tap power from an alternate universe, the project was revived. The unfortunate nasty side effect was that the energy being tapped was self aware, and without its food source, took to feeding off of the local life forms. And what I was saying was that in their original design, they were self aware battleships. Once the Protodevelin were implemented as an energy source, they were possessed battleships.

Worse yet, given that the Evil were meant to be a next level super weapon, there was something inherent in their design that screwed with the Zentradi, and caused them to cower in fear, making them inefectual as a weapon against anyone but other Zentradi. The upside of this was that the Protoculture civil war was resolved so that they could band together to fight the Protodevelin, and took to the front lines for likely the first time in millenia. The downside to that was that while their own race wasn't terrified of the Evil, they were succeptable to mind control, and many were formed into the Supervision Army. And just as U.N. Spacy ships were re-engineered into Varuta troops, so were Protoculture ships re-engineered into Supervision Army ships, one such ship being what would become the Macross.

Then faced with reduced troops, and ineffective (against the Evil/Protodevelin) Zentradi, the Protoculture fully boned themselves by removing the restrainst they had placed on the Zentradi againt attacking Protoculture. This gave them enough manpower & time to develope the original incarnation of Anima Spiritia, which likely was only used to hold back the Protodevelin enough to use whatever sealing technique they used to put them away. This also resulted in a major backfire when the remnants of the Protoculture, who apparently finally realised all of their past mistakes, decided to patch things up perminently between their two factions & rebuilt peacefully, and finally demilitarize the Zentradi & integrate them into their society. The Zentradi saw that single action as a threat, and without their boundries that restricted them from attacking their creators, took too whiping out any reminants of the Protoculture that tried to "culture" them, as well as whiping out reminants of the Supervision Army.

And that of course was where the original series picks up, and why Bodolza saw Earth as such a threat.

All things considered, this is the most civil Macross 7 discussion we've ever had....

[Keith]

After mentioning it, it occured to me that Basara was written much like a super hero for the show, they guy can sing spiritia, fly like an ace and has no "apparent" flaws that he needs to grow out of and has a mysterious past that no one knows about really.

I like to think of it this way. Macross 7 was designed with a main character to focus on the 3 different potential aspects of viewing the series.

-For those with a more militaristic view, who wouldn't quickly accept the more idealistic events portrayed, there's Gamlin.

-For those who are younger & more impulsively minded, there's Mylene.

-And for those more idealisticly minded, who would immediately get/accept Basara & his antics, there's Basara. Personally I fell into this group, as my first watching turned from checking out an episode, to watching half the series within 2 days, then watching it again while waiting for my next batch of fansubs to finish the show off.

It's like watching a Macross Superman, he just don't seem human...  Hell one could start a whole new thread debating whether the guy is actually human at all, considering how enigmatic his past is and how unnaturally powerful he appears to be...

I still like to theorize that Mao may actually be Basara's mother, as her survival through SWI would be likely, as the most probable place to ship off the remaining Mayan Islanders would be South Atalia, given new jobs "working" on the construction of the new ship. That would be the quickest & easiest way to keep them quiet about the events they saw, while keeping them centralized in an area where other secrets may need to be kept. Having a direct bloodline with the Protoculture would explain Basara's ease in developing his abilities, as well as his instintive nature with what he was doing, just as Sara & Mao had before.

It also explains why I didn't really care for him at all.  I don't much care for Superman, I'm more of a Batman or Spiderman kinda guy...

425233[/snapback]

I don't see Basara as a "superman" character at all. Just a man who has an idea, and the fortitude to see it through no matter what. It's all too cliche to have "flawed" main characters who are totally unsure of themselves, depressed, self doubting, etc. I like Gundam as much as the next guy, but I also welcome Kawamori bucking the trend by having a strong willed main character who knew what he wanted, knew what he was doing, & knew he was right. And in that light, Basara is no more superman than Max & Isamu were.

[Radd]

Personally, I do see Basara as a plot device. I don't neccessarily see that as a bad thing, because I agree with Keith's point that everyone else is adapting to him as if he were some kind of force of nature. I found that character developement abounded in Gamlin, Mylene, Ray, Max, Millia, Gigil, and most everyone else Basara affected. I thought it was good character devolopement, too, not forced. Gamlin wasn't a Firebomber fan overnight, Gigil didn't break into a rousing round of 'Totsugenki Love Heart' after hearing Basara once or twice, and Mylene wasn't on the same page as Basara right from the opening concert. All this took time, a lot of time just as it would to real people meeting such a unique individual with such unusual ideas.

It is through these characters that Basara's own character is explored. Exactly why he is the way he is, and what compromises he has to make with the situation around him. I don't see him as completely without flaws, there are times when others have advice for him, primarily Ray.

And not everyone was swayed, there were many that held on to their long held ideas despite what was going on.

Also, I don't think the show was that childish because of the ideals presented. Seems to me if most problems arise from an 'us versus them' mentality that exists entirely in people's minds, and that most people do not grow out of.

I do, however, differ in my opinon from Keith in that I believe the presentation itself, primarily in the directing and some of the design work, as well as the pacing, leaves something to be desired. Didn't stop me from enjoying the show, overall, but I do think a lot of the detractors might have different opinions if the same themes and the same strong character developement were presented differently.

A lot of the same themes are present in Macross Zero, yet more people seem to like that and I've yet to hear anyone call it 'kiddie'.

Edited August 15, 2006 by Radd

[Zinjo]

I don't see Basara as a "superman" character at all. Just a man who has an idea, and the fortitude to see it through no matter what. It's all too cliche to have "flawed" main characters who are totally unsure of themselves, depressed, self doubting, etc. I like Gundam as much as the next guy, but I also welcome Kawamori bucking the trend by having a strong willed main character who knew what he wanted, knew what he was doing, & knew he was right. And in that light, Basara is no more superman than Max & Isamu were.

Nothing is new under the sun. SK simply recycled the hero type of the 60's and 70's who seemed super human in their abilities.

To me, Basara would have been more acceptable as a character had he been somewhat surprised at his ability to "sing spiritia power", but as I recall, he just accepted it without missing a beat (no pun intended).

Could he have been a child of Mao or even the Nome bloodline? It's plausible. If this were indeed true, then it would further my point that he is more like a superman than a human.

I do agree that mac 7 filled a niche in the market and I have no doubt that at that time it was fresh and new compared to all the shows surrounding it. However it is profoundly different in it's presentation of the similar themes from the original.

I find it juvenile, but then again I find the SW prequels juvenile as well, yet the fans who have seen the Prequels first and the originals second dont' agree on that point. That's fine. I can respect an opposing position, so long as they don't demand I change my opinion.

All things considered, this is the most civil Macross 7 discussion we've ever had....

That's because we aren't trying to change the other's mind or taking opposing opinions as attacks...

Personally, I do see Basara as a plot device. I don't neccessarily see that as a bad thing, because I agree with Keith's point that everyone else is adapting to him as if he were some kind of force of nature. I found that character developement abounded in Gamlin, Mylene, Ray, Max, Millia, Gigil, and most everyone else Basara affected. I thought it was good character devolopement, too, not forced. Gamlin wasn't a Firebomber fan overnight, Gigil didn't break into a rousing round of 'Totsugenki Love Heart' after hearing Basara once or twice, and Mylene wasn't on the same page as Basara right from the opening concert. All this took time, a lot of time just as it would to real people meeting such a unique individual with such unusual ideas.

This may well be true, but it just seems like a waste of a character and as JBO said he was the star who got most of the screentime. How many star characters are presented as a force of nature?

It is through these characters that Basara's own character is explored. Exactly why he is the way he is, and what compromises he has to make with the situation around him. I don't see him as completely without flaws, there are times when others have advice for him, primarily Ray.

True, Superman has the holgram of Jor-el... It wasn't so much his lack of flaws, but more his lack of growth as a person. He didn't evolve. Much like the Superman character in comics, he is already the apparent ideal, thus "boring".

Also, I don't think the show was that childish because of the ideals presented. Seems to me if most problems arise from an 'us versus them' mentality that exists entirely in people's minds, and that most people do not grow out of.

I don't view it as juvenile because of the themes presented, more because of HOW they were presented. The principles of this particular story are unique to be sure, but was it necessary to have a pink VF-11 or musical instruments as flight controls, etc...? That is where the divergence generally comes from.

A lot of the same themes are present in Macross Zero, yet more people seem to like that and I've yet to hear anyone call it 'kiddie'.

I think Keith has successfully argued that the themes of Mac 7 are consistent with the franchise, however that isn't were people generally take issue with it.

[Kelsain]

but was it necessary to have a pink VF-11 or musical instruments as flight controls, etc...?  That is where the divergence generally comes from.

To me, Mylene's VF-11 wasn't nearly as offensive as the VF-1 with the clown nose...

Although, that scene with all the personally owned Valkyries kindof supported the Sound Force ones, in my mind. We see that with the technology of the 2040's, VFs are easily customizable. Really the SF valks aren't that crazy, they just have modifed head sensors. Hell, Basara's even had head and hip lasers. I guess most people really take issue w/ Mylene's. Personally, the crazy paint scheme, even the boobs, don't really bother me - it's more that the transformation sequence seems to be so different with the YF-21 style head shield and the skinny legs that somehow also hold missile bays.

With the controls, I'm sure we've all had issues with the flight controls of Macross mecha. I mean, how can the battroid mode do all those things using a throttle, flight stick and a couple foot pedals? If it's all preprogrammed, is there a specific key sequence to flip your gunpod and smack somebody with it? Or to put on a giant adversary's uniform? The standard control layout was deigned for regular jet fighters. IIRC, they used it in the VF-1 to make it an easier transition for normal pilots. Maybe its possible that the guitar-stick (keytar-stick in Ray's case) or something similar might be better suited to battroid action. I'll grant that the idea of playing WHILE doing all this seems like a bit much - but if so, maybe that helps with Basara's "ace" piloting skills - his custom valk has an interface advantage over everyone else ('cept Guld in the 21 of course). Good thing Veffidas didn't have her own fighter, though.

Edited August 15, 2006 by Kelsain

[Ginrai]

Gamlin goes through a similar, though less pronounced, process. Even gets time in the 1J(and blows it up... stupid Gamlin...). Admittedly, he also gets 50% less romantic interests.

True, but he gets the 1J as sloppy seconds. It's after Mylene already did that, did it better, and did it cooler. He gets the VF-1J and it immediately explodes. Haha. I think Gamlin is the comic relief, Basara is the more experienced "older brother" character, and Mylene is the protagonist. Ray, for the record, is the "aged master", the ninja guru type.

But while Mylene is the most interesting character(Sorry, Gamlin fans), Basara is the one the "camera" focuses on. Mylene's presence is sacrificed if it threatens to take too much time from Basara, which places restrictions on how much character development they can do. It really felt like they aborted and abreviated a few plot threads because of it.

Basara's the star, regardless of whether or not he's up to the task.

425211[/snapback]

I think Basara just gets more action scenes because he's a man. Mylene is a tiny little teenage girl. She can't be the alpha male. But she's out there kicking ass a lot (as the VF-1J scene can attest, as well as the numerous times she's out with Sound Force in her VF-11).

She's not the protagonist of the Macross 7 "movie" or Dynamite 7, because her character arc is complete and she's barely in either. Of course, Basara still doesnt' develop very much in Dynamite, but oh wellllll...

[Ginrai]

I like to think of it this way. Macross 7 was designed with a main character to focus on the 3 different potential aspects of viewing the series.

-For those with a more militaristic view, who wouldn't quickly accept the more idealistic events portrayed, there's Gamlin.

-For those who are younger & more impulsively minded, there's Mylene.

-And for those more idealisticly minded, who would immediately get/accept Basara & his antics, there's Basara. Personally I fell into this group, as my first watching turned from checking out an episode, to watching half the series within 2 days, then watching it again while waiting for my next batch of fansubs to finish the show off.

That's an interesting take on it, and you can certainly view it that way, but I still think the character that changes the most throughout the course of the show remains Mylene. Perhaps one interpretation I'd have an easier time with is saying that Mylene is the "character protagonist" and Basara is the "action protagonist", but I definitely think Gamlin is a supporting character. He doesn't do much on his own. Mylene and Basara are both making decisions that affect people around them constantly while Gamlin mostly -reacts- to both Mylene and Basara. He freaks out when Basara flies into battle singing, he freaks out when he finds out Mylene is lying to him and is in the rock band, et cetera.

Personally, I'm the lead singer of a rock band (we just had a concert Sunday night in fact), but I still relate to Mylene much better than Basara. The casual, earnest connection with Mylene is much stronger than Basara's aloof, "artist in an ivory tower" thing. But I dunno, I first started watched Macross 7 when I was about 16, so that probably plays into it, too.

[Zinjo]

With the controls, I'm sure we've all had issues with the flight controls of Macross mecha.  I mean, how can the battroid mode do all those things using a throttle, flight stick and a couple foot pedals?

If it's all preprogrammed, is there a specific key sequence to flip your gunpod and smack somebody with it?  Or to put on a giant adversary's uniform?  The standard control layout was deigned for regular jet fighters.  IIRC, they used it in the VF-1 to make it an easier transition for normal pilots.

IIRC, (I'd have to double check the line art) the VF-1 had two separate sets of controls. One for jet flight and another used for Battroid piloting. I don't recall the Macross Plus controls of the VF-19, but the Mac II controls integrated the flight and battroid controls.

Maybe its possible that the guitar-stick (keytar-stick in Ray's case) or something similar might be better suited to battroid action.

The explanation is conceiveable, however, I somehow question whether anyone on the production staff gave it much more thought past, "I would look cool if..." or "The audience is gonna love it when..."

[sketchley]

The TV series version of the VF-1, had two seperate sets of controls (one for fighter, one for battroid.)

The DYRL version has the two sets combined into one.

[kanedaestes]

the macross plus yf-19 controls where very much like the DYRL controls, basically both fighter and battriod were integrated

[Kelsain]

The explanation is conceiveable, however, I somehow question whether anyone on the production staff gave it much more thought past, "I would look cool if..." or "The audience is gonna love it when..."

Oh, I don't disagree with you there at all. If we're bringing that on board, we can really hang most of this discussion, anyway...

To my knowledge, concept designs for movies don't often get past that stage anyway. If they do, it's usually from the production designers wanting to put some functionality or backstory into a design idea from on high. Even if they do put a lot of thought into it, it's usually lost when the sets get built, director tells actors to fiddle with it a little, or ends up on the cutting room floor - or the director just changes his mind. (I tend to read a lot of production design books) Sometimes you do get someone who gets actively involved and showcases the thought the designers put in (Peter Jackson is a good example). But, when the creator/director IS the designer, well, who knows if he thought it through?

And I'd forgotten the early SDF episode about the different control sets. That's why Roy had Hikaru switch to Gerwalk, b/c the controls were more like a plane's... Perhaps I got that from the old RT:RPG book (the only source for good lineart in the late 80's) - before I knew better.

Oh, and the YF-19 used the same controls for all modes - remember when Isamu was pushing very hard on the stick when fighting Guld with his gunpod/club, and that somehow translated into the 19 using both arms.

Entering into speculation - think of how many control cambinations the guitar stick gives you. Basara launched his missiles by using "Slider 52," then pressing a certain button on the er, end of the guitar. (I know nothing about guitars). If there's 52+ sliders, x 8 or so button each, in addition to the greater variety of positions you can put it in; you have a alot more action capability than a 2 button joystick and a throttle. You'd spend a lot less time reaching away from the hand controls to hit buttons.

Just thinkin...

Edited August 15, 2006 by Kelsain

[Zinjo]

Entering into speculation - think of how many control cambinations the guitar stick gives you.  Basara launched his missiles by using "Slider 52," then pressing a certain button on the er, end of the guitar.  (I know nothing about guitars).  If there's 52+ sliders, x 8 or so button each, in addition to the greater variety of positions you can put it in; you have a alot more action capability than a 2 button joystick and a throttle.  You'd spend a lot less time reaching away from the hand controls to hit buttons. 

Just thinkin...

Well you can't argue common sense and in terms of direct control one can argue that the guitar stick could offer more, however I would suspect that with a control system like a Variable fighter, a designer would rather have such switches at the pilot's finger tips or as part of the control stick. So the idea of reaching for a control during combat would not be an issue.

Modern fighters have all their combat "necessary" controls around the joystick or throttle.

I would expect a military VF to have similar design characteristics, where all the needed controls are within a finger's reach. Optional controls are not.

The old labelled sliders we saw in SDFM would have long been abandonded by the 2040's. If they were used at all, since it has been stated that DYRL is what SK wanted as the visual design of SDF Macross to actually be, while the SDFM series was where the story was.

Both in Mac Zero and DYRL we see that the pilot activates the Gerwalk mode by pulling the throttle lever up on the early Variable Fighters, unlike the series' slider switches.

The biggest problem with the guitar stick I see, is you'd be flying your fighter in a manner similar to churning butter. It would be difficult to utilize the controls on the stick and control the craft in a combat situation. There is also the risk of pilot injury due to being exposed to the g-forces produced by thrust vectoring while "churing" his fighter in a dog fight situation. One could expect instances of whiplash as part of combat flight injuries, with such a control system.

Edited August 16, 2006 by Zinjo

[Sumdumgai]

With high G-forces and all, I'd expect it would be difficult to use a guitar stick control and keep control of the valkyrie. It seems like it would be really easy to hit the wrong button, or slide the wrong thing, especially if being shaken up.

The mind boggles even more with the drum controls in the 17... O_o

[Keith]

The Guitar stick is only dangerous when 3 year olds try to tag along in the cockpit while you're being attacked by a Quadran Rau who's pilot has the largest bra in the galaxy. The rest of the time it's quite safe.

As for the MAXL Kai, femine mecha & giant robots are far from uncommon, I rather like the swan motif.