Dam You Macross 7 Dam You #$%#$^#$&^$%&

[VF5SS]

Hey, did Guld make a cameo in Macross 7? I could have sworn he was the pissed Zentraedi that got out of the truck after Sivil invaded City 7.

EDIT: Oh yeah, I just heard from a trusted friend that the Japanese liked M7 much better than M+. Crazy, huh?

423258[/snapback]

So your friend speaks for Japan right? He's an official source right?

[GrimlockCW]

Psst, 9 & 1/2 anime series are directed at kids, the original Macross series was, and your implication would seem to imply Macross 7 is somehow different in that nature, which it is not.

423426[/snapback]

more than that, and whats worse is half the anime directed at kids has more adult content than the ones directed at adults!!

i mean.. Hyper Police was in an adult time slot on japanese TV (so i'm told) and yet its more docile in content than something like Azumangadaihoh (SP? i really don't know it)

its got the usual adult rated inuendos that even Disney does these days, yet its got nothing else of note (not even blood really)

the manga on the other hand is a WHOLE differant story, still not full H stuff but could fit into an Ecchi category no less, and takes the inuendos into physical form moreso than word mention like the anime.

[Zinjo]

I love how you keep saying it, yet when confronted you just put your fingers in your ears and say "nanannananananan I don't hear you, its my opinion so I'm not going to argue it" If you're going to state something that is highly contestable over and over again, have the balls to back it up, because its pretty clear as keith pointed out, its no different from ANY other anime of its generation.

So what part is contestable? That Macross 7 is a very good kids show or that Japanese adults, who enjoy anime, often avoid bringing it up because of the social stigma about Otaku?

From your comments I gleen that you are saying that Macross 7 is as thought provoking and dramatic as SDF Macross?

Interesting theory, care to back THAT up? Good luck, since all the debates on the subject are based on personal tastes and opinions...

Comparatively speaking, SDF Macross is far more sophisticated in its story and execution than Macross 7, IMO. However, I enjoyed several aspects of Mac 7 too, just not as many as the first series.

Mac 7 to me, is kinda like what Gundam Seed is to many old school Gundam fans. Very popular right now, but not what MS Gundam started out as.

Since a like or dislike of any bit of pop culture is based on personal opinion and tastes, to attempt to challenge someone to "change their minds" based on your arguments is somewhat juvenille. As well as to accuse them of being closed minded because their personal tastes don't mirror yours is also childish.

I get the sense that the next step in this vein would be to start name calling...

Edited August 11, 2006 by Zinjo

[Keith]

So what part is contestable? That Macross 7 is a very good kids show or that Japanese adults, who enjoy anime, often avoid bringing it up because of the social stigma about Otaku?

From your comments I gleen that you are saying that Macross 7 is as thought provoking and dramatic as SDF Macross?

Comparatively speaking, SDF Macross is far more sophisticated in its story and execution than Macross 7, IMO. However, I enjoyed several aspects of Mac 7 too, just not as many as the first series.

Mac 7 to me, is kinda like what Gundam Seed is to many old school Gundam fans. Very popular right now, but not what MS Gundam started out as.

424227[/snapback]

Wait, you're saying that Macross 7 isn't as throught provoking, sophisticated, or dramatic as the original series? Unlike the myriad of AU Gundam, Macross 7 "did" maintain the core of what Macross has always been about, while evolving the original concepts presented. Hell, in a rare Kawamori moment, we also got some pretty nice backstory on the original Protoculture conflict, and you know how he loves just leaving things mysterious.

The only real arguments against Macross 7 come from those who A: See singing in a cockpit & immediately write the show off, B: See more of an anti-war sentiment in a show they think is supposed to emphasive militaristic battles, or C: See what they construe as "space monsters," not taking into account that they're actually biological evolution of already existing Macross technology, and write it off. And because of that, people such as yourself write the show off as "kiddie," despite the fact that it's far more "kiddie" to have the token G.I. Joe never ending fight.

The truth is, SDF Macross had more than its share of goofy moments & bad animation, with nearly any technical complaint you can make against 7 being applicable to it as well. At the same time Macross 7 has more than its share of drama & serious tone.

-Big space battles - Check

-Max doing his usual thing - Check

-Hot alien chicks - Check

-Planetary destruction - Check

-Transforming robots - Check

-Giant aliens - Check

-Well written main character deaths - Check

The list goes if you'd like.

Edited August 12, 2006 by Keith

[danth]

EDIT: Oh yeah, I just heard from a trusted friend that the Japanese liked M7 much better than M+. Crazy, huh?

423258[/snapback]

So your friend speaks for Japan right? He's an official source right?

424208[/snapback]

I didn't say it was true -- just crazy. Judging by all the merchandise, though, he was probably right.

[waters7]

And I always thought that Macross 7 as a show was closer to the original Macross concept of "making fun of" the monster of the week concept than the original SDF Macross.

My 2 cents..

PS: I like Macross 7, but why did they have to play planet dance over and over for the first half of the series?

[azrael]

I should note that SDFM was a parody of all giant robot shows of the time.

Hikaru is even your random 16 year-old kid who got dumped into a giant transforming robot...

BTW, Keith...fix your quotes.

PS: I like Macross 7, but why did they have to play planet dance over and over for the first half of the series?

Don't know. Probably because it was one of the 1st songs to actually use a duet between Yoshiki Fukuyama and Chie Kajiura.

Edited August 11, 2006 by azrael

[VF5SS]

I didn't say it was true -- just crazy. Judging by all the merchandise, though, he was probably right.

424254[/snapback]

You mean the handful of models and toys right? That's a lot of mechandise. Yep Sure is.

[Sumdumgai]

Finally sat through and watched the whole series.

Docker was a douchebag, I don't see what anyone else saw in him. Gamlin was an overall good guy, although I cringed at what happened to Miria's valkyrie, and I don't understand why he likes Mylene.

I liked it overall, with a fair share of raised eyebrows and things to dislike. I hated how they treated the VF-11s and how there was so much recycled animation.

[Zinjo]

Wait, you're saying that Macross 7 isn't as throught provoking, sophisticated, or dramatic as the original series? Unlike the myriad of AU Gundam, Macross 7 "did" maintain the core of what Macross has always been about, while evolving the original concepts presented. Hell, in a rare Kawamori moment, we also got some pretty nice backstory on the original Protoculture conflict, and you know how he loves just leaving things mysterious.

That doesn't prove it was "more" or "as" sophisticated or dramatic as SDF. It did reveal more about Protoculture, but mostly to justify the space monsters. The revelations that directly relate back to SDF is the further explanation about the Supervision Army and the Civil War.

The only real arguments against Macross 7 come from those who A: See singing in a cockpit & immediately write the show off, B: See more of an anti-war sentiment in a show they think is supposed to emphasive militaristic battles, or C: See what they construe as "space monsters," not taking into account that they're actually biological evolution of already existing Macross technology, and write it off. And because of that, people such as yourself write the show off as "kiddie," despite the fact that it's far more "kiddie" to have the token G.I. Joe never ending fight.

You make an awfully large assumption about what I write off...

I found the fact that a civilian having a state of the art military fighter that has been customized to be flown using a guitar and that the same civilian was not arrested for flying said aircraft into a military operation, thus endangering pilots, to be "kiddie" as only children would accept that (I won't comment on the Kai's "face" or the Sound Force fighters as that's just redundant).

I found the notion of "giant" monsters grown to wage war is more of a throw back to Dancougar and Mazinger and those types of shows. I found the AFOS much more believable as a bio-engineered weapon than the PD. Thus making Macross 7 aimed more at a "kiddie" audience than not.

The anti-war sentiment in threaded throughout all the Macross shows, in SDF the sentiment was displayed by showing the devastating affects of wars, not Hikaru flying around shouting into his radio to "Listen to my message!".

Unfortunately for your assumption, I don't write off Macross 7, I simply categorize it as a children's show and enjoy it for what it is. I give it no more expectation than I would any other superior animated kids show. Thus your pigeon hole attempt does not apply to me...

The truth is, SDF Macross had more than its share of goofy moments & bad animation, with nearly any technical complaint you can make against 7 being applicable to it as well. At the same time Macross 7 has more than its share of drama & serious tone.

I never made any technical complaints against macross 7. The only ones I could make are the blatantly recycled battle footage and maybe the character design of the twin PD, whatever their names were.

-Big space battles - Check

-Max doing his usual thing - Check

-Hot alien chicks - Check

-Planetary destruction - Check

-Transforming robots - Check

-Giant aliens - Check

-Well written main character deaths - Check

The list goes if you'd like.

Please do go on, Ive become intrigued...

[Zinjo]

I should note that SDFM was a parody of all giant robot shows of the time.

Hikaru is even your random 16 year-old kid who got dumped into a giant transforming robot...

BTW, Keith...fix your quotes.

I understood it was originally intended to be a parody, but that changed in pre-production. There was little slapstick about the show by the time it aired.

IMO, SDFM carried more of a science fiction adventure theme because of the dramatic subjects it tackled and the setting the characters found themselves in.

I am unable to really categorize Macross 7 myself. Probably others would do better than I in that respect.

Edited August 11, 2006 by Zinjo

[Ginrai]

Guys, guys, SDF Macross was a kids' show too...

[Sumdumgai]

Oh yes, death to the protodevlin pair! Death to those laughing freaks! Most annoying Macross characters ever.

[azrael]

Guys, guys, SDF Macross was a kids' show too...

424329[/snapback]

In fact most of the anime on TV is for kids. People seem to forget that...Of course, it also goes with the fact that people think that there's some realism in Macross....The instant you see transforming planes and giant robots moving faster than 90-year-old grandma, check realism at the door. Oh wait...people have no imagination these days. But enough of my ranting.

Oh yes, death to the protodevlin pair! Death to those laughing freaks! Most annoying Macross characters ever.

Hey, the twins are balanced with the bridge bunnies. On one end, you have 2 cheerful, cute, and lovely ladies running a carrier, and on the other you have 2 ugly, laughing, deformed and overgrown Zentradi who can blow up carriers....

Edited August 11, 2006 by azrael

[Sumdumgai]

Yeah but the protodevlin pair has that oh so annoying laugh that's worse than metal scraping against metal, or nails on a chalkboard (which doesn't really bug me, but I know it drives other people insane).

Best thing out of Macross 7:

Emilia. She's hotter than Miria. That's good breeding! lol

[danth]

I didn't say it was true -- just crazy. Judging by all the merchandise, though, he was probably right.

424254[/snapback]

You mean the handful of models and toys right? That's a lot of mechandise. Yep Sure is.

424304[/snapback]

Well, for toys, Macross 7 had the red and blue VF-19's and the two different VF-17's. Macross Plus got diddly squat (until 7 years later with Yamato). As for mainstream models, M7 got the same VF-19's from Bandai, and again squat for Macross Plus. I'm sure both series had garage kits and stuff, but for the mainstream stuff, M7 had M+ beat. I also recall seeing a bunch more posters and books for Macross 7 back when they were both out.

[sketchley]

Uhm... why are you guys limiting your view to models and toys? What about character goods? What about non-anime appearances (as in interviews, etc.) on TV? What about articles in the (Japanese) animation magazines? What about video game spinoffs?

In all of those catagories, Macross 7 has outpaced Macross Plus at, the very least, 2:1. Sometimes it has been 10:1. Let's face it, Macross Plus lasted how long? How long did it take to be released? 120 minutes spread over a year? Macross 7 is how many hours longer (I can't be bothered to figure it out,) spread over 3 or 4 years?

Now please, don't limit yourselves to what you know is available in your own country, but broaden your mind to what is or was available in Japan - especially during the height of activity for both Macross 7 and Macross Plus.

[sketchley]

I found the notion of "giant" monsters grown to wage war is more of a throw back to Dancougar and Mazinger and those types of shows.  I found the AFOS much more believable as a bio-engineered weapon than the PD.  Thus making Macross 7 aimed more at a "kiddie" audience than not.

424326[/snapback]

Erm... how are they different from the Zentraedi? Especially the DYRL revision of their external appearance?

Aren't the Zentraedi grown? Don't they look monstrous? Aren't they the 'monster of the week' as well in the original series?

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I still much prefer the original series because it took a more serious tone. ie when hikaru's friends die, and when he has to choose between the two girls while fighting to defend the human race from extinction and the big chance of him not coming back, and him fighting to protect minmay despite loving misa. And minmay loving her career to spend time with him... well, I thought all that conflict was what made it interesting.

With 7 I never felt basara was in any real danger: very little casualties, and the focus on civilians living aboard the ship itself. It seemed a little slow paced and repetitive imo. Kind of like some epiodes were filler eps and it was all about basara this, basara that! (without me necessarily caring for basara because we know nothing about who he is)

Despite the repetition the actual music was good though. I just prefer a more dark aproach to science fiction: that they are going off on some adventure and there is danger everywhere with people getting lost, dying, and the chance you may not live to return. But the spiritua farm project thing explained all that: the PD were using humans to feed from and had no interest in war so they just kept the cattle alive so they wouldn't need to find people and instead just grow them like in the matrix.

If I had a choice between an ova that is more like Zero and Plus with DYRL level of detail and animation, or a series that is more like 7, I probably would choose the ova/movie if the money went into making the dogfights more crazy and detailed and realistic. For me, macross is still just a mecha show and all the other stuff is the bonus you get.

Edited August 12, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Sumdumgai]

Singing whales. It was funny.

And I've always wanted to see what it looked like to have whales in a giant power blender!

[GrimlockCW]

With 7 I never felt basara was in any real danger: very little casualties, and the focus on civilians living aboard the ship itself. It seemed a little slow paced and repetitive imo. Kind of like some epiodes were filler eps and it was all about basara this, basara that! (without me necessarily caring for basara because we know nothing about who he is)

nah there were tons of casualties, ya just never hear of any of them since they weren't in the cast

[Keith]

That doesn't prove it was "more" or "as" sophisticated or dramatic as SDF. It did reveal more about Protoculture, but mostly to justify the space monsters. The revelations that directly relate back to SDF is the further explanation about the Supervision Army and the Civil War.

I'm still trying to figure out how giant aliens who are freaked out by sex & music is more mature than space monsters in general.

You make an awfully large assumption about what I write off...

I found the fact that a civilian having a state of the art military fighter that has been customized to be flown using a guitar and that the same civilian was not arrested for flying said aircraft into a military operation, thus endangering pilots, to be "kiddie" as only children would accept that (I won't comment on the Kai's "face" or the Sound Force fighters as that's just redundant).

Then you apparently missed the part of the series where all that was explained. Max himself hoping for a solution for the fighting that had gone on sanctioned the project years before. Ray, after his friend Stephen died, retired from the military, & wandered around the universe drunk. He crossed path's with Basara, & came up with the general idea after witnissing his determination. Ray got in touch with Kinryu who had been assigned to the 7 fleet, who in turn got in touch with Max, who apparently also had Chiba chewing his ear off about a similar concept. All things came together, Akusho was attached to City 7 as a training ground, Chiba had the custom VF-19 Kai worked up, and Ray instructed Basara on how to fly.

While Basara was a civillian pilot, he was sanctioned in a military Project (Project M Specifically). I also fail to see where anything Basara did wad "endangering" anybody. He had no live ammo, and even in the early stages before he was "effective," he still drew fire away from the other pilots. Any Arguments regarding "faces" is just inane, mecha having humanoid faces, and or having a camera eye make no difference whatsoever, and comes more down to personal preferance. Hell, Gundam's have been running around with Samurai armor masks since the beginning. The same goes for the guitar shaped control stick, big deal, it still uses the basics of a standard control scheme.

I found the notion of "giant" monsters grown to wage war is more of a throw back to Dancougar and Mazinger and those types of shows. I found the AFOS much more believable as a bio-engineered weapon than the PD. Thus making Macross 7 aimed more at a "kiddie" audience than not.

Nothing you've said here implies anything of a "kiddie" nature. Hell, by that logic, all tenticle rape hentai is "kiddie" because it doesn't feature robots or more standard humanoid aliens? And then you go and claim the AFOS to be more believable, despite its complete & total lack of mechanical parts? None of the powers (aside from possessoin) are anything that wasn't already shown to be possible with already existing Protoculture technology. For all intents & purposes, they're bio-engineered self aware battleships, be them suped up past anything given to the Zentradi.

The anti-war sentiment in threaded throughout all the Macross shows, in SDF the sentiment was displayed by showing the devastating affects of wars, not Hikaru flying around shouting into his radio to "Listen to my message!".

No, instead you had Hikaru being forced to compromise his ideals in order to protect his friends. A necessary decision given the circumstances, but one that's not necessary in 7, as Basara is someone who doesn't compromise his beliefs for anything, and it just so happens that the technology that exists by the time of 7 means he doesn't have to try. As for the "devastating effects of war," I still fail to see how you're finding more in SDF Macross than 7. Aside from the bombardment of Earth, there really "aren't" more. I fail to see how someone saying "listen to my song," is somehow worse than someone pulling a trigger, & killing someone. As for the "devastationg effects of wars," the point of 7 was to end a conflict without having to have anyone on either side die, it was specifically goal oriented against further "devastationg effects of wars."

Unfortunately for your assumption, I don't write off Macross 7, I simply categorize it as a children's show and enjoy it for what it is. I give it no more expectation than I would any other superior animated kids show. Thus your pigeon hole attempt does not apply to me...

And the only area where it fails that expectation, is tha the main character tries to motivate his opposition "not" to fight instead of killing them? How again is that more childish? Macross 7 is one of the rare occurances of a main character who isn't unsure of himself, isn't moody & brooding, doesn't have to overcome some major shortcoming, & doesn't compromise himself to suit a situation, instead, he chooses to change the situation. Does that make the show somehow childish? If so, I don't see how.

I never made any technical complaints against macross 7. The only ones I could make are the blatantly recycled battle footage and maybe the character design of the twin PD, whatever their names were.

The lack of personality in those last two had far more worse to do than their designs, but luckily they don't have enough screen time to be a problem. The only true major difference in tone between the two shows, was that the original series presented an ideal that they hadn't quite achieved, while Macross 7 went that extra length & fully achieved it. And say what you will about recycled launch sequences & explosions, but in 52 episodes, there was not even one clip show. That's almost unheard of even today.

Please do go on, Ive become intrigued...

424326[/snapback]

Sure,

-Bridge Bunnies - Check

-Love triangle - Check (several actually)

-Abandonment by the U.N. Spacy brass - Check

-Ineffectiveness & surviving by the skin of their teeth against a more advanced threat - Check

-Enemy infiltration into the civillian populace - Check

-Crazy mis-folds - Check

-The distinguishing between an "artist & an idol - Check

etc. Just about every major & minor theme that was covered in Macross TV is still present in 7.

Edited August 12, 2006 by Keith

[Keith]

With 7 I never felt basara was in any real danger: very little casualties, and the focus on civilians living aboard the ship itself. It seemed a little slow paced and repetitive imo. Kind of like some epiodes were filler eps and it was all about basara this, basara that! (without me necessarily caring for basara because we know nothing about who he is)

nah there were tons of casualties, ya just never hear of any of them since they weren't in the cast

424453[/snapback]

Kinyru, Physica, & Gigil were the 3 big main cast deaths. With the implied loss of the populace of the Megaroad-13.

[sketchley]

Didn't the populace, or everyone but the VF pilots of the New Macross 5 fleet get destroyed too? And wasn't the planet Rax also destroyed? (As in the entire planet is no more, not like the limited-to-the-surface destruction of Earth.)

[GrimlockCW]

While Basara was a civillian pilot, he was sanctioned in a military Project (Project M Specifically). I also fail to see where anything Basara did wad "endangering" anybody. He had no live ammo, and even in the early stages before he was "effective," he still drew fire away from the other pilots. Any Arguments regarding "faces" is just inane, mecha having humanoid faces, and or having a camera eye make no difference whatsoever, and comes more down to personal preferance. Hell, Gundam's have been running around with Samurai armor masks since the beginning. The same goes for the guitar shaped control stick, big deal, it still uses the basics of a standard control scheme.

he endagered the lives of the actual fighter pilots early on by getting in between the line of fire while they were attempting to fight, forcing them to break and leave themselves open to an attack.

Gamlin complains about this for some time.

[azrael]

Didn't the populace, or everyone but the VF pilots of the New Macross 5 fleet get destroyed too? 

424497[/snapback]

A good amount of people died. But enough survived only to be used in the Spiritia farm.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

nah there were tons of casualties, ya just never hear of any of them since they weren't in the cast

Kinda like the CF deaths in the original mwhaha...

[JB0]

I also fail to see where anything Basara did wad "endangering" anybody. He had no live ammo,

Except the leg missiles.

and even in the early stages before he was "effective," he still drew fire away from the other pilots.

And got in their way.

On the other hand, he DID use himeslf as a shield for civilian targets a few times.

I found the notion of "giant" monsters grown to wage war is more of a throw back to Dancougar and Mazinger and those types of shows.  I found the AFOS much more believable as a bio-engineered weapon than the PD.  Thus making Macross 7 aimed more at a "kiddie" audience than not.

Nothing you've said here implies anything of a "kiddie" nature. Hell, by that logic, all tenticle rape hentai is "kiddie" because it doesn't feature robots or more standard humanoid aliens?

What, you never saw "Rape-inator: Robotic Tentacles of Doom"?

I generally assume every possible porn concept has been explored at least once.

And then you go and claim the AFOS to be more believable, despite its complete & total lack of mechanical parts?

The AFOS had also been "stored" with much less care.

While the protodeviln were encased in ice, the AFOS was sitting exposed on the sea floor.

I fail to see how someone saying "listen to my song," is somehow worse than someone pulling a trigger, & killing someone.

Chiba used Basara's song for psychological torture on Gamlin.

And the only area where it fails that expectation, is tha the main character tries to motivate his opposition "not" to fight instead of killing them? How again is that more childish?

It's idealistic. Particularly the manner in which it's attained.

Macross 7 is one of the rare occurances of a main character who isn't unsure of himself, isn't moody & brooding, doesn't have to overcome some major shortcoming, & doesn't compromise himself to suit a situation, instead, he chooses to change the situation. Does that make the show somehow childish? If so, I don't see how.

It's called a flat character.

One of my major gripes with Macross 7 is that Basara has no character growth, either in "real-time" or backstory.

Were he a secondary character, this would be acceptable. But he's not interesting enough to be the lead, and he steals camera time from far more compelling characters. Gamlin and Mylene would've both made far better main characters.

The only true major difference in tone between the two shows, was that the original series presented an ideal that they hadn't quite achieved, while Macross 7 went that extra length & fully achieved it.

Macross 7 also only pursued one major point.

SDF Macross had many concurrent major threads. Some were fully realized, others were truncated or abandoned.

And I'd argue that the music angle WAS developed quite adequately in the original series, for the setting it was in.

And say what you will about recycled launch sequences & explosions, but in 52 episodes, there was not even one clip show. That's almost unheard of even today.

Indeed, that's a quite impressive accomplishment.

And SDF isn't exactly free of footage recycling itself.

Mac7 at least keeps the recycling to appropriate locations so you don't have explosions in space splashing off the non-existant ground, and never falls to the low quality levels that plagued SDF at several points.

-Enemy infiltration into the civillian populace - Check

And the "corruption" of said infiltrators by the "good guys."

Sivil and Gigile were both influenced by Basara far earlier than their companions were.

I'd still debate that the shows are from the same mold, though.

[Elektrix]

About the point about Basara not having any character growth; I can understand that to some degree, but I don't necessarily see this as a deficiency. Basara strikes me more as a character who is supposed to sort of be a catalyst for the growth of many other characters in the show. It seems like the point of the show is less about some standard character arch for Basara, and is more about how a variety of other characters react to him, eventually grow to undersand him, and perhaps even grow themselves by the example he sets.

I can see how this isn't ideal, but I don't think it's necessarily a terrible way to do a story either. I'm not sure that Macross 7 would be more interesting if Basara were a more typical "heroic" lead having to learn a variety of lessons, etc.

[JB0]

About the point about Basara not having any character growth; I can understand that to some degree, but I don't necessarily see this as a deficiency.  Basara strikes me more as a character who is supposed to sort of be a catalyst for the growth of many other characters in the show.  It seems like the point of the show is less about some standard character arch for Basara, and is more about how a variety of other characters react to him, eventually grow to undersand him, and perhaps even grow themselves by the example he sets.

I can see how this isn't ideal, but I don't think it's necessarily a terrible way to do a story either.  I'm not sure that Macross 7 would be more interesting if Basara were a more typical "heroic" lead having to learn a variety of lessons, etc.

424673[/snapback]

Focusing on Mylene and/or Gamlin would be a better way to further the "characters reacting to Basara" angle.

Also!

What the heck is up with the danged flower girl?!?!

[Keith]

he endagered the lives of the actual fighter pilots early on by getting in between the line of fire while they were attempting to fight, forcing them to break and leave themselves open to an attack.

Gamlin complains about this for some time.

424536[/snapback]

No, he pissed off Gamlin by being an unknown on the battlefield, he never endangered anybody. Gamlin has no one to blame but himself for is own distraction.

Didn't the populace, or everyone but the VF pilots of the New Macross 5 fleet get destroyed too? And wasn't the planet Rax also destroyed? (As in the entire planet is no more, not like the limited-to-the-surface destruction of Earth.)

The populace was used for Spiritia, the military was used as Varuta soldiers, and the ships were gutted for usable technology.

Except the leg missiles.

Which were only used in a hasty moment to protect someone else.

And got in their way.

On the other hand, he DID use himeslf as a shield for civilian targets a few times

You'll note no one aside from Gamlin complained about Basara being on the battlefield. He didn't actually get into anyones way, the only shots he blocekd were those of the Varutal.

What, you never saw "Rape-inator: Robotic Tentacles of Doom"?

I generally assume every possible porn concept has been explored at least once

Nope, musta missed that kiddie show

The AFOS had also been "stored" with much less care.

While the protodeviln were encased in ice, the AFOS was sitting exposed on the sea floor.

The AFOS was stored to be found. It was intentionally left relatively out in the open. Once human tech became advanced enough to find it (cyclops radar), it would prove as a test.

Chiba used Basara's song for psychological torture on Gamlin.

Because Gamlin had a stick up his ass for the first 3rd of the series. He was right along with everyone else singing Planet Dance & Light the Light later on.

It's idealistic. Particularly the manner in which it's attained.

What's life without ideals?

It's called a flat character.

One of my major gripes with Macross 7 is that Basara has no character growth, either in "real-time" or backstory.

Were he a secondary character, this would be acceptable. But he's not interesting enough to be the lead, and he steals camera time from far more compelling characters. Gamlin and Mylene would've both made far better main characters

Gamlin & Mylene were interesting because they were placed there to grow to the point Basara had already been at. As I said, Basara had no conflicts, problems, etc, because he already had his sh!t together from the start. Everyone else was playing catch up. That hardly makes him a flat character. As for backstory, enough was revealed about him to understand him. He's obviously the kind of guy who doesn't speak about himself, some people are like that. Plus there's Kawamori's penchant for mysteries & un-resolved endings.

Macross 7 also only pursued one major point.

SDF Macross had many concurrent major threads. Some were fully realized, others were truncated or abandoned.

And I'd argue that the music angle WAS developed quite adequately in the original series, for the setting it was in.

At the end of the series Minmay admits she doesn't have her emotion for singing yet, but she wants to find it. Kamjin throwing culture shock in her face finally woke her up. She wanted to achieve that ideal emotion to share with people. Macross 7 fully realizes Minmay's dream. I also don't see how 7 had any fewer major threads than Macross.

And the "corruption" of said infiltrators by the "good guys."

Sivil and Gigile were both influenced by Basara far earlier than their companions were.

I'd still debate that the shows are from the same mold, though.

Gigil especially had some great moments, and definately stands as my favorite Macross bad guy.

Edited August 13, 2006 by Keith

[Noyhauser]

Except the leg missiles.

Which were only used in a hasty moment to protect someone else.

I always thought that scene was one of the better ones in Mac 7, where Gamlin realizes that his weapons are useless.

Its also a scene of character by Basara... he isn't unfeeling or infallable.

thanks Keith, you made the points better than I could on Zinjo's comments. I somewhat expect another "its my opinion" statement coming.

[ultimateGAO]

What squadrons were present in Macross 7? Im assuming Hikaru took Skull Squadron with him in Megaroad-01 or was there one in Macross 7 since Max was part of Skull Squadron?

[Sumdumgai]

All I remember are the main ones. Diamond Force, Emerald Force, Sound Force... We see the Pink Pecker squad.

[JB0]

And got in their way.

On the other hand, he DID use himeslf as a shield for civilian targets a few times

You'll note no one aside from Gamlin complained about Basara being on the battlefield. He didn't actually get into anyones way, the only shots he blocekd were those of the Varutal.

Most of the pilots on the battlefield weren't even allowed faces, much less voices.

Except that one guy screaming into his helmet while they sucked his spiritia out, and he was a metric buttload of pilots' face.

I doubt Gamlin was calling in just to be a whiny crybaby.

It's safe to assume Basara WAS a nuisance.

Chiba used Basara's song for psychological torture on Gamlin.

Because Gamlin had a stick up his ass for the first 3rd of the series. He was right along with everyone else singing Planet Dance & Light the Light later on.

I never got the impression he actually LIKED Basara's music, though.

He just ceased to hate Basara with the burning heat of a thousand suns and acknowledged that Basara DID have talent, even if he didn't care for the music.

And that still doesn't change the fact that they used Basara as an instrument of torture.

...

Random thought: given that the usual view of rock music is "louder = better", it's highly possible Chiba had things turned up way too loud for Gamlin and was causing him physical pain.

It's idealistic. Particularly the manner in which it's attained.

What's life without ideals?

I'm just saying that adults typically acknowledge that the world isn't an ideal place, and that idealism often has to be set aside for reality(like Hikaru setting his "war = bad" idealism aside for the defense of the Macross, and ultimately humanity itself).

Rampant idealism is typically a sign of a kiddie show.

Basara never questions the idea that there's a non-violent solution to everything.

What's more, he never questions that the solution is people listening to his song. He either blames everyone around him when his singing fails or assumes he just isn't good enough.

It's called a flat character.

One of my major gripes with Macross 7 is that Basara has no character growth, either in "real-time" or backstory.

Were he a secondary character, this would be acceptable. But he's not interesting enough to be the lead, and he steals camera time from far more compelling characters. Gamlin and Mylene would've both made far better main characters

Gamlin & Mylene were interesting because they were placed there to grow to the point Basara had already been at.

But the focus was on Basara, not Gamlin and Mylene's adaption to him. Those story angles were sacrificed several times for the sake of more Basara.

As I said, Basara had no conflicts, problems, etc, because he already had his sh!t together from the start. Everyone else was playing catch up. That hardly makes him a flat character.

Yes, it does. He's a static and unchanging fixture in the show.

As for backstory, enough was revealed about him to understand him. He's obviously the kind of guy who doesn't speak about himself, some people are like that. Plus there's Kawamori's penchant for mysteries & un-resolved endings.

I'm just saying that Basara's character could've been developed through backstory without altering his character signifigantly.

A single flashback of him trying to move a mountain with his song isn't my idea of character development, or even establishment.

Macross 7 also only pursued one major point.

SDF Macross had many concurrent major threads. Some were fully realized, others were truncated or abandoned.

And I'd argue that the music angle WAS developed quite adequately in the original series, for the setting it was in.

At the end of the series Minmay admits she doesn't have her emotion for singing yet, but she wants to find it. Kamjin throwing culture shock in her face finally woke her up. She wanted to achieve that ideal emotion to share with people. Macross 7 fully realizes Minmay's dream.

Fair enough.

Personally, I don't think Mac7's version would fit in the setting of SDF Macross.

I also don't see how 7 had any fewer major threads than Macross.

Maybe I'm mistaken. It seemed a more complex show, though.