The 2nd Coming of the YF-19

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Ah I see what you mean. Never noticed it before. I wonder if the next mag scans will show us a head on fighter mode pic? And the gunpod too. I want to see how large it is

[Scream Man]

Its not the size that counts.....

Sorry, couldnt help myself...

[jenius]

goodness jenius, you sure got me there. Just because I don't spend my time or get my jollies by pointing out the most miniscule detail, doesn't mean I can't get my jollies by pointing out the absudity of people who do.

Wow, you are awesome. "Just 'cause I don't like to nitpick toys doesn't mean I'm not a complete ass." Go you, you really bring a lot to a conversation.

[Nani?!]

If you think a conversation or point or opinion or statement is stupid just ignore it and move on your way.... what's so hard about that?

His suggestions are on topic, valid with a point, and not laced with anything insulting.

No one forced you to read it... it isn't a complaint directed at YOU... nor is it a "complaint" at all... it's a suggestion HE thinks will make the yf-19 better.

Gosh the next thing you know people here will start getting "whacked" for saying something "mentally challenged"...

..............................

Hold up, somone's knocking on my door now....

......

!! BANG !!

[Graham]

It's probably just as easy to find to anime screen grabs showing the wings angled up or perfectly horizontal. Dosen't really prove much.

Graham

[recon]

Guys lets just be contented that yamato has brought the skeleton out of the closet and brought the YF19 back to life. As much as i would have love to see some of the corrections/features as suggested by david being implemented. Im still gratified that a better designed YF19 being done as compared to its predessor, 1/72 ver.

Judging from the silhouhettes, of that the battroid mode as compared to the anime, the thighs/arms/head/hips look kinda of skinny, but im still hoping that the actual product might look better.

Cheers

Edited August 14, 2006 by recon

[kensei]

Here is a little comparison I made from the lineart and the silhouhette for battroid mode.

424815[/snapback]

It's been on Dr. Phil's Diet program.

[David Hingtgen]

Graham---true, but the majority of decent shots show them down. There's a few horizontal, one with slight dihedral (escape from Eden, chased by missiles) and even one with severe dihedral (the shot that's really messed up, because the YF-21 in that shot is messed as well), however:

Most good shots show them down. The more detailed and carefully drawn a frame is, the more likely it is to show it. Some of the closest, "non-fleeting" shots in the entire anime of the YF-19 are of it firing guns from head-on---it is drawn carefully and very detailed in those scenes--and they showed the sloping fuselage and anhedral wings. Every side-view drawing shows the fuselage sides and wingroots sloping down (canon and non-canon). Every other kit/drawing/model has them down.

The only "reference" for them being horizontal, are sporadic shots in the anime, and people who think they're horizontal because they never really looked that closely--or they look, but see that it's "close to horizontal" and thus assume it IS horizontal. Basically, if the YF-19 isn't drawn with sloped surfaces, it's because it was hastily done because it was a background shot, or the YF-19 was moving/rolling very rapidly and would only be seen at any given angle for a half-frame. Since it's hard to see from many angles, there's little point in drawing it "correctly" for the one frame in a scene when it's nearly head-on.

I'll go with "the majority of depictions of it". Plus the whole fact that it looks better, and the fact that since that is how it looks most of the time, that's the mental picture most people have.

Even if you don't notice it, it's been there every time you watch. Kind of like how a VF-19F/S has it's v.stabs in a different place than the YF-19. A lot of people don't notice that until you point it out to them--but it was always like that every time they saw one.

Also, I'd like to point out that Kawamori's own drawings are inconsistent, even ones that are "grouped" and drawn at the same time--notably the whole "intake separate from hip" thing I mentioned a while ago. Sometimes Kawamori draws it as one piece, sometimes two. Which is the "canon" way? I vote for two pieces, as it allows both fighter mode and battroid mode to "work" better with a real-life 3D transformation. It's not always drawn that way, even by Kawamori--but it works better (part of the reason I think the animators draw it that way so often). If you make it two pieces, you get a better fighter AND battroid mode, that more closely follow the "standard" fighter and battroid mode sketches (the most canon of all).

Final point: In every single drawing/sketch/diagram/animation of the YF-19 from the side I can find, the fuselage sides/wingroots are sloped. Show me a drawing of the side, I'll show you the slope. Now, if the wings aren't sloped, everything looks wrong because everything else is sloped--and the wings wouldn't fit in the wingroots anymore when they transformed. Thus, since the fuselage and wingroots are sloped, the wings have to be sloped as well or it can't transform. Now, Yamato has sloped the outer part of the wingroot slightly--not enough to affect the wing (though if you look from behind it appears to retract at an slight angle, since the wings are straight but the wingroot is partially sloped--though I'm basically interpreting single JPG pixels there, the CAD drawing I have from head on and behind is quite small). But the entire upper surface should be done to look right and to have the wing align with the wingroot when retracted for battroid mode. If they had sloped the wingroot to match the drawings, the wing wouldn't fit--since the wing has to be angled as well if the wingroot is sloped more than like the 0.3 degrees Yamato did.

Edited August 14, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[chowyunskinny]

"Thus, since the fuselage and wingroots are sloped, the wings have to be sloped as well or it can't transform"?

Are you talking about the toy not being able to transform, or real world physics on a real world plane if the YF-19 did exist.

David, while I can appreciate your passion for aviation, especially in the model forums, I'm getting a little frustrated seeing your daily "not accurate" manifestoes in my favorite Toy and Transformers threads.

The 19 is a transforming toy. It's not a Radio Controlled airplane. It doesn't really need to fly.

Please ease up a little bit on being an armchair Mech and Toy designer.

[Nani?!]

After all that though.I think the angled wings are unnecessary~

it'd be nice, but not necessary.

It can get down and do some valkyrie crunches to get rid of that gut, and maybe... MAYBE a little growth spurt with the wings~

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

What yamato should do: ask the floating head which is canon: droopy wings or straight wings?

He might pull a macross zero on us and say they never were sloped or something. Maybe the yf19 was really grey instead and that the ova was just a movie documentary as Macross Plus the "movie edition" was the real version of events etc etc..

Oh and exedol never had hair or given hands.. since the movie version is the correct canon design... any toys made then of him from the tv are kinda sorta canon since SWI was real but the animators were full of crap and didn't draw them as originally intended ...

Edited August 14, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Gatillero PR]

I think it would be better fixing the shape of the neck/belly than the angle or size of the wings.

My humble opinion.

[mister_e]

Not to sound too ignorant, but if they (Yamato) are willing to show pics of fighter mode, why would they not show pics of the other modes? I'm much more of a battroid fan and I'd really like to see the other modes. Oh well, I guess we'll see it when they feel like letting us see it. I just don't understand the secrecy.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

So the magazines can say: "Scupuda!" And be the exclusive source for new info?

BTW if this thing is skinny, I won't mind that in battroid mode if it means a slim fighter. I just remember how chunky the 1/72 fast packs were on the VF11. urgh.

But I will still buy it like I did with 1/72 as it looks like a big enough improvement in most everything from those. (assuming no loose joints misplaced magnets etc)

Edited August 14, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Nani?!]

Not to sound too ignorant, but if they (Yamato) are willing to show pics of fighter mode, why would they not show pics of the other modes? I'm much more of a battroid fan and I'd really like to see the other modes. Oh well, I guess we'll see it when they feel like letting us see it. I just don't understand the secrecy.

424904[/snapback]

I said something along those lines a while back when yamato was a run by ninja's who were sworn to secrecy and left hundreds of people who pre-ordered the 1/72 yf-19 FP in the dust...

Although I must admit I expressed myself with much more anger () than you are and as a result was schooled by some members that MW is not a news site... hehe... ahh memories... anyway...

Frankly though, even in retrospect, I HATED yamato's policy toward their customers then...

They're doing better now and I only hope it improves... Graham's back in the know, and Yamato is rolling along with good products after another...

It's the peak of the golden age for sure~

[Graham]

Not to sound too ignorant, but if they (Yamato) are willing to show pics of fighter mode, why would they not show pics of the other modes? I'm much more of a battroid fan and I'd really like to see the other modes. Oh well, I guess we'll see it when they feel like letting us see it. I just don't understand the secrecy.

424904[/snapback]

Beacuse if you show all the modes at once, then you have nothing to show in the magazines over the next few months and people may forget about the product.

Showing each mode a few months apart helps build up anticipation and keeps it fresh in peoples minds.

Graham

[Vermillion21]

Here is a little comparison I made from the lineart and the silhouhette for battroid mode.

424815[/snapback]

Thanks for the effort mate - it does help somewhat.

[Macross73]

Not to sound too ignorant, but if they (Yamato) are willing to show pics of fighter mode, why would they not show pics of the other modes? I'm much more of a battroid fan and I'd really like to see the other modes. Oh well, I guess we'll see it when they feel like letting us see it. I just don't understand the secrecy.

424904[/snapback]

Beacuse if you show all the modes at once, then you have nothing to show in the magazines over the next few months and people may forget about the product.

Showing each mode a few months apart helps build up anticipation and keeps it fresh in peoples minds.

Graham

424944[/snapback]

Well its working b/c i've been on pins and needles from the start.

[vlenhoff]

Whenever you observe a hand drawn 2D object, as we all know distortions to object might occur. I have no reference showing a full front or side view of the YF-19 which will indicate a slight tilt down of the wings. Both stills taken from the M+ animation show the airframe slihgtly tilted downwards which would immediately show a downward angle of the wings. Since the wings are pointed forward, that would be an accurate visual effect as the wings would look like they are tilted down. In the other hand if the 19 is angled upward, then the wing would appear to be tilted slightly upwards. I've seen this animation COUNTLESS times, and I never had the impression of the 19 having a downwards tilt angle in the wings.

That is my sincere opinion, and it is not intented to contradict, compete, or disrespect previous opinions about this subject.

I wish the wings were slightly bigger, but I also know designing a mechanical, variable aircraft is very challenging.

[vlenhoff]

Not to sound too ignorant, but if they (Yamato) are willing to show pics of fighter mode, why would they not show pics of the other modes? I'm much more of a battroid fan and I'd really like to see the other modes. Oh well, I guess we'll see it when they feel like letting us see it. I just don't understand the secrecy.

424904[/snapback]

Beacuse if you show all the modes at once, then you have nothing to show in the magazines over the next few months and people may forget about the product.

Showing each mode a few months apart helps build up anticipation and keeps it fresh in peoples minds.

Graham

424944[/snapback]

Just like movies, it is a teaser. A teaser keeps you a bit more interested, than just showing all main important aspects of the movie. Yes I know this is a "toy" and not a movie, but marketing still somewhat similar. Also, Yamato might still make some changes before its release.

Again, I'm not taking sides. I'm personally exited about this release. Ever since I got my first 1/48 I wished Yamato would design the rest of the line with a similar approach. Actually, I do think is smart the 1/60 line gets the full gamma of Macross goodnes. I love my 1/48, but a better 1/60 YF-19 is perfect to go with the 1/60 VF-1 to compare sizes. Not to mention the Q-Rau!

I hope, Yamato makes all the right decisions on the 19, and whatever else they produce. I had to pass on the Garland out of pure fear

[David Hingtgen]

"Thus, since the fuselage and wingroots are sloped, the wings have to be sloped as well or it can't transform"?

Are you talking about the toy not being able to transform, or real world physics on a real world plane if the YF-19 did exist.

I meant the toy. It'd be like trying to jam a CD into a car's in-dash player at an angle. You have to slide it straight in. The angle of the wing has to match the angle of the wingroots it slides into. Yamato has sloped the upper part of the wingroot ever so slightly, which won't affect the internal shape/angle of the wingroots. But if they increased the slope to match the sideview drawings, they'd have to angle the wings to match. My point was, since the wingroots are sloped in every drawing I can find, and since the wings and wingroots have to match angles quite closely to be able to transform (in an actual toy), that was IMHO pretty good evidence that the wings should angle down.

All of Kawamori's designs will fly---he knows his stuff, and people (right here on MW) have built flying models of his valks. I only ever reference real aviation to try to figure out why he designs things the way he does, or figure out how "not very well documented" aspects of his designs may be shaped. If there's no drawing of an area, might as well try to guess what he may have been thinking when designing the plane (with his knowledge of real-life aviation/aerodynamics), or go with what the real plane he based that area on has. I never say "it should be like this regardless of what we see because the so-and-so in real life is like this". I say "since we have no definitive reference of this area to go by, it's probably like this because that's how similar planes are in real life or a plane like that would need, or the real thing he based it on is like this"

PS---a lot of my aeronautical terms are there/used simply because frankly, most every aspect of plane design has had a term defined for it by now. "Wings angled down when viewed from head on" is "anhedral". A fairly common term, and that's what it is, so I use it. It's just a descriptive term.

Edited August 14, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[cyde01]

As I said before in the scene where the YF-19 first appears in the garage it is very obvious that David is right and the wings are supposed to angle down. However:

it'd be nice, but not necessary.

424893[/snapback]

I couldn't have said it better myself. I also think that my own nitpick of the wing roots being wider and the wings being longer would be nice, but not necessary. I think the fighter would be fine as is, but that's just my opinion.

As far as the battroid mode is concerned, yes it is skinny. Yes the chest, shoulders, and legs look much smaller and skinnier. However, if you look at the Model Graphix transforming Hasegawa YF-19 and the SHE kit, I don't think a battroid mode with better proportions is even possible for the most part (although I think the legs being too skinny could be remedied). As many people have said, the YF-19 suffers from much more anime magic compared to the VF-0 and VF-1, so we can't expect a battroid mode as accurate as those two without sacrificing the fighter mode. I'd prefer to see the shoulders articulate at an upward angle if possible, but I'd be more than satisfied if they released the toy with the battroid mode as it is in that silhouette.

edit: I take that back. The chest and shoulders don't even look too small in the silhouette. They look a little smaller than the lineart, but not that much. The only thing that's too small/skinny is the legs, which I think could be remedied quite easily, but I'd be happy if they released it as is.

Edited August 14, 2006 by cyde01

[kensei]

All I can say is, the next pic better be the one in GERWALK mode. I'm a helluva curious as to how the legs are going to be. They look good from what I can tell of the picture.

Not to say that I'm not hanging out for a battroid pic too.

Edited August 14, 2006 by kensei

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

If they do give us pics in a different mode, hopefully we get a few in various angles. Anyway, take your time yamato. Don't want a toy that is too brittle, or floppy now..(plus it takes time to save for these)

Edited August 14, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[cyde01]

I'm sure pics of all three modes will be out after Aug 19 when people go to this Chara-Hobby event and take pictures at the Yamato booth when no one is looking. I don't think silhouettes of the other 2 modes would be used as a teaser for the event if they're not gonna show both.

Hey can someone direct me to where I can find pics of the IHP YF-19 kit and that one other transformable YF-19 that looks really good, both in battroid mode? I wanted to make a comparison pic between the line art, Yamato silhouette, the Model Graphix YF-19, and any other transformable YF-19 with a good battroid mode.

Edited August 14, 2006 by cyde01

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

Comparisons of the size of the gunpod would be nice.

[cyde01]

this is the best I could do with Paint. i think i made the 2 on the right too big compared to the 2 on the left. wish i had photoshop..

Yamato seems to compare favorably compared to the 2 models. I would still prefer the legs be a little wider. Gunpod seems to be the right size.

[kensei]

If the boob on the Yamato is good, then i think that the rest is just dandy.

[the white drew carey]

Meh.

To be honest, I've never been a fan of the YF/VF-19 or the YF-21/VF-22 from Mac+, I think they are the worst VF's SK has ever designed, because they rely waaay too much on anime magic to make the proportions right in all of the modes.

I'll gladly save my money on this one.

[Scream Man]

this is the best I could do with Paint. i think i made the 2 on the right too big compared to the 2 on the left. wish i had photoshop..

Yamato seems to compare favorably compared to the 2 models. I would still prefer the legs be a little wider. Gunpod seems to be the right size.

ok, see where are those from? I skipped a bunch of pages in the mioddle thinking there were no new pics!

Edited August 14, 2006 by Scream Man

[Shaggydog]

You skipped all those pages of endless discussion about the angle of the wings? What are you, mad?!?

There were some new silhouettes a few pages (and several migraine headaches) back.

[Fort Max]

Looks like a nice toy, yeah, a really nice toy.

[Dante74]

Well, well,... lookee here.

A screenshot (found on MW member Jung's website, sorry for stealing it for this post) of the YF-19 from Macross Plus.

It's up close and detailed aaaand...the wings seem to be raising up out of the fuselage instead of down. It's probably because of the angle the shot was taken from but bear with me.

Here, my VF loving friends, we have a screenshot of the YF-19 in a front view showing wings that are HHWAAAY to big and the intakes arent too small either.

Note that the wings slope down in this shot.

My point is: To dramatize some scenes animaters may sometimes exaggerate certain characteristics of a plane. All we can rely on is the official line art that the Hory Froating Head himself penned.

It's the same with the 1/60 VF-0A. We all saw the blue-ish colors in the Macross Zero anime. Now Kawamori states that the anime wasn't done right and the Yamato toy is the way it's supposed to be? WHY THE HELL DIDN'T HE SPEAK UP WHEN THE ANIME WAS MADE?!?!?!

The same goes for the YF-19, whatever Kawamori says is right,...is right.

If that means the wings will not have anhedral (quick copy/paste action, I just can't remember that word), then it won't have anhedral.

I'm pretty sure the HFH was involved in the design process of this toy from the beginning. Yamato wouldn't want to risk starting all over after showing Kawamori a finished prototype and he gives it a thumbs down.

Maybe you model guys can have some fun modding it to whatever you want it to be when it's released.

[Gatillero PR]

Maybe you model guys can have some fun modding it to whatever you want it to be when it's released.

425084[/snapback]

And even cast the parts for us the "guys that can't customize anything" to sell!!

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

WHY THE HELL DIDN'T HE SPEAK UP WHEN THE ANIME WAS MADE?!?!?!

Well it's no different from the animation mistakes in the original tv series or the "pointy elf ears" on mylene in some areas of macross 7 OVA. Maybe not enough time?

Edited August 15, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker