David Hingtgen Posted August 11, 2006 Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) And to counter that point, another comparison! From the sides, the legs don't fit right. The legs should be "higher up" with the shoulders retracted into them. The legs are simply too tall and too low (red lines). The shoulder and leg should mesh together well enough that they almost combine into one shape (green line). Now, while there's some anime magic in there, THE SHE MODEL COULD DO THIS. Now, the SHE doesn't look all that much better for it (it can't retract them all that much, but it can bring the legs up closer to the shoulders by folding away area surrounding the knee---the back of the knees themselves are the problem), it does help at least a little The new Yamato might even be doing this, but compared to the 1/72 it doesn't look like it. Basically---with "how to do that" already figured out years ago, how come it doesn't seem to show up all that often? Surely by now Yamato should have been able to improve on it and incorporate it--they've had years. By making the legs able to "wrap" around the shoulder better (or conversely, sinking the shoulders into the legs), you get a much thinner valk from the side, from intakes to feet. And with a thinner/lower valk, you can have smaller/shorter nose gear while maintaining the same stance---thus a smaller/thinner neck/belly...... :edit: I guess I should attach the drawing I was referring to... Edited August 12, 2006 by David Hingtgen
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted August 11, 2006 Posted August 11, 2006 (edited) If the battroid mode looks really skinny, I just hope the joints are going to be strong enough that it can stand up and support itself. -Big feet will mean it can keep its balance in gerwalk modes and stuff. Perhaps the compromise was to make thick legs from the side? The yf21 tiny feet are what make it unstable in gerwalk. -stubby nose means more space for pilot and cockpit. Maybe the 1/48 needed bulbous canopy for that reason? Also makes the nose less pointy in battroid? -fat neck = compromise for long gear: so it doesn't droop down in fighter mode looking sad and depressed. Unless I see it in all modes I'm going to think it is chunky. (that won't be so bad in some modes though. If all the battroid mode is, is a skeleton then it won't look accurate to battroid lineart which makes it beefy and stocky. You got to wonder, how skinny is skinny? When they get to the vf11, my guess is it will be really fragile and collapse under the weight of the GBP.) Edited August 11, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
David Hingtgen Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 (edited) Re: feet. The feet (AKA nozzles) are actually too short IMHO--the upper one mainly. It's hpartly how they're mounted (far apart), and also how thick they are (vertically, when viewed from the side in fighter mode). It's all so they "fit" in the thickened legs/ankles without having gaps. The leg is bigger that it should be from the side, so the feet are thickened and moved apart to fill in the bigger space. Nose gear: as I posted above, having thinner legs (up closer to the shoulders) would lower the entire plane--thus allowing a smaller nose gear but still having a "level" fighter mode. Oh, one more thing: I think the whole plane may be off from the front. There's no anhedral. There should be anhedral across the entire wing/LERX/wingroots---it's definitely there in every drawing I can find but clearly not there for the Yamato. Basically, from head on, the wings should angle down a bit, not stick straight out perfectly level. The wingroots/LERX/tops of the intakes should also follow that line. Ok, modified the CAD drawing--my version is on top, original version below. I have the anhedral go all the way from the wingtip over to the sides of the nose--but it's a shallower angle across the intakes due to looking strange trying to modify the drawing that much in that area. Wing anhedral exaggerated a bit so you can see what I'm talking about. Does anyone else think that the wings (and intakes) should have anhedral like my drawing, versus the "perfectly horizontal" ones? Edited August 12, 2006 by David Hingtgen
Nani?! Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 And to counter that point, another comparison! 424355[/snapback] nice. Actually, to me the legs not fitting under the wing properly was personally, the most unsightly difference between the yamato and other renditions (even Kawamori's line art)... It looks more off than dare I say, the beer gut. The triangular part of the side of the leg should fit right under the wings so all you see is half of the triangle. As always though... judging by the fact that Graham is sold on it by seeing more pics, I'd like to see for myself if it's really a problem in full 3D. also........................ Comments regarding portions of a toy that are off are important, if not essential to this hobby. Just because Graham and the MW community as a whole is singing a merrier tune because of the many FINE quality releases coming out nowadays, doesn't mean that critical comments should be considered "nit-picking" and "whining". A lot of the advancements in quality yamato has comes from such "nit-picking"... To me, people who keep saying critical comments like those above are "whining", are annoying... What's the point in posting in ANY forum if everyone's going to sing the same chorus? Debating and critiques are the BEST part of communities like these... I mean bloody hell, if you're going to drop $150 per valk, it's a right you most definitely exercise~
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 (edited) Here's the bit where I think the nose rises a little and then falls down. If they could make that less straight.. Comments regarding portions of a toy that are off are important, if not essential to this hobby. Just because Graham and the MW community as a whole is singing a merrier tune because of the many FINE quality releases coming out nowadays, doesn't mean that critical comments should be considered "nit-picking" and "whining". Good point. Take the eternal "small hands" comments for example. We know bigger hands for 1/48 would not fit into the sleeve but to some people who like to display in battroid mode, we will sacrifice a bit of the PT for aesthetics. It might not bother others, but it can dramatically change the look of the valk such that it would be worth cheating a little. (hands that are bigger than what could fit inside) If lineart can cheat: (ie have smooth sides on the yf21 in figher mode) toys should be allowed to as well to look as good as they can in 3d to match what they do in the anime. I just think it is all about balance in all 3 modes.. The argument works both ways though: after all, we got the vf0 in PT due to complainers and whiners opting against swappable parts VF0 "toy". (if we want models we will buy and build those. At some point the majority has got to draw a line in the sand for what they'll buy and accept as a PT toy, and what is considered a fragile model only dedicated to a single mode for a fictional mecha that changes shape to look cooler for whatever the artist/animator finds most aesthetically pleasing for that moment in time) Having said all this, I think lineart should be more a "guide" for mecha with lots of anime magic rather than a strict unbending rule. Even with mecha not thought of to have much anime magic in thier design are still susceptible to deformity in modes: The growing and shrinking nose of the vf1 is a classic example. The lineart makes the nose really stubby in battroid because it looks cooler. (so I can forigve a toy here for not being "lineart accurate" if the nose is actually much longer, if only it meant better fighter mode. It all goes back to my argument of "balance" and my preference for a toy able to bend the rules a bit in order to look more pleasing to the eye just like in the anime where the robots do all kinds of crazy unrealistic poo and lines can bend and deform as if it were human skin ) Edited August 12, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker
GutsAndCasca Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 (edited) Why can't we all just get along? (jk) Seriously, just be happy Yamato's making the thing. You know you're going to buy one, no matter if the feet are too big, the wings are too small, the nose is too fat, or the battroid mode is too skinny. You're going to buy it and then talk about how much you love it. Admit it. Heck, even if you don't like it that much you'll probably buy 3 of them; one for each mode. And then you'll buy the YF-21... and... EDIT: Hey look, I just became a bridge bunny. Edited August 12, 2006 by GutsAndCasca
Sumdumgai Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 Yeah, but we want them to get the 19 to be as perfect as can be.
Nani?! Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 Why can't we all just get along? (jk)Seriously, just be happy Yamato's making the thing. You know you're going to buy one, no matter if the feet are too big, the wings are too small, the nose is too fat, or the battroid mode is too skinny. You're going to buy it and then talk about how much you love it. Admit it. Heck, even if you don't like it that much you'll probably buy 3 of them; one for each mode. And then you'll buy the YF-21... and... EDIT: Hey look, I just became a bridge bunny. 424378[/snapback] oh hell yea, possibly three yf-19's & two yf-21's and two vf-11b's, a vf-0a, vf-0d, Sv-51.... I understand your point that we should be happy.... and believe me I think I speak for everyone here when I say we're all really happy this thing's coming out. but as happy as we are, you gotta understand this valk is a favorite to many... and as a favorite, people will want it to look and be the best it can be. It's all comin' from LUV~
eugimon Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 there's a lot to be said for wanting to make the best toy possible... and then there's beating a dead horse.
Sumdumgai Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 Dead horses are for eating. That's damn good meat man! But we've waited this long for a good rendition of a 19, it might as well be really really good.
rnurmin Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 My thoughts exactly there's a lot to be said for wanting to make the best toy possible... and then there's beating a dead horse. 424398[/snapback]
JELEINEN Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 Yeah, but we want them to get the 19 to be as perfect as can be. 424382[/snapback] Yeah, and complaining here is going to make anything happen.
1/1 LowViz Lurker Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 We are so hungry for yf-19 pics we could eat the dead horse.
Nani?! Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 Yeah, but we want them to get the 19 to be as perfect as can be. 424382[/snapback] Yeah, and complaining here is going to make anything happen. 424406[/snapback] And complaing about people making critical comments is going to make something happen right? If macrossworld was limited to only positive feedback then there would be no purpose to these "forums" which by definition (in case you didn't know) is a public meeting place for open discussion; a medium of open discussion or voicing of ideas... The 1/60 vf-0s is a prime example of what suggestions and ideas shared here in MW can do. Bigger scale, correct head lasers, magnet fast-pack attachment, full tampo printing, all that was discussed right here. and.... if beating the dead horse into oblivion and beyond can influence a single change that makes the 19 better, so be it... where's my baseball bat?
Phren Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 (edited) right, since I *will* be buying this, there's nothing wrong with wanting it to be ever so slightly better if it will make me much happier. This WILL be the best rendition of a transforming YF-19 toy ever, and possibly for a long, long time, if not for all time. To say, "ah, it's nicer then it was so I don;t care" is more ridiculious to me. Imporving on a crappy toy in a few points is fine, but a few points better here make a lot of difference IMO. It's pretty now, so it is one of the few projects that has the potential to be completely *beautiful*, but naysayers say not to hope for that? - cheap. Dead horse? Get some glasses! It's a PIÑATA! And I'm not stopping till the candy comes out. Edited August 12, 2006 by Phren
Skullsixx Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 and when in the hell is this thing coming out?!!!
Vermillion21 Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 (edited) Welcome to Macrossworld where whining and battying is taken to a whole new level. What a great description of these forums!!! Edited August 12, 2006 by Vermillion21
Nani?! Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 Dead horse? Get some glasses! It's a PIÑATA! And I'm not stopping till the candy comes out. 424431[/snapback] That's the spirit~ Beat that som-bich~
Macross73 Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 and when in the hell is this thing coming out?!!! 424434[/snapback] Inquiring Minds Want to...............Get it NOW
eugimon Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 and when in the hell is this thing coming out?!!! 424434[/snapback] Inquiring Minds Want to...............Get it NOW 424451[/snapback] don't you want to wait until we've had a chance to nit pick it death first? oooh look, the wings aren't angled down .75 degrees!
David Hingtgen Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 (edited) It's simple--straight, or angled. The exact angle isn't important--a line is either straight, or it's not. IMHO it looks a lot better with the angled wings. (since that's how real fighters are, generally, and that's how the YF-19 is based on everything I can find) Of course, gravity and joint looseness alone will probably have the wings angle down a bit anyways even if it's not designed to, but that won't affect the shape of the top of the intakes/wingroots. It's definitely there in every drawing on Graham's "lineart comparison page". PS--if a company is going to spend lots of time and money making something, they could at least spend sime time to note the finer aspects of its design/shape. "Forgetting" wing anhedral and quasi-gulling of the entire upper fuselage (F-14-style) just kinda says "we don't really care, the shape is close enough". Just because a shape is subtle, doesn't mean it should be ignored. Basically--it is a part of the YF-19's design, as much as having canards and forward-swept wings are. No, it's not real obvious, but it affects the upper surface of the entire mid-fuselage, the intakes, the wingroots, and the wings. Looking from sides, you should be able to see the upper surface of the intakes, wingroots, etc--because they SLOPE UPWARDS. They are not flat. PPS--if I was *really* being nitpicky, I'd start commenting about the INCIDENCE angle of the wings... Edited August 12, 2006 by David Hingtgen
Nani?! Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 Angled wings? haha c'mon now... David, you're swinging but missing the pinata there~! How does that make or break the yf-19? It's in no way a significant characteristic of the yf-19. I was with you on the underbelly removeable LG and the legs but you're alone with the angled wings~
Dante74 Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 I'm so glad I'm not burdened with extensive knowledge of aircraft technology. I just look at the pics and think "cool toy, I want one". Don't get me wrong, I want the toy to be the best it can be, but I'm convinced Yamato would make the legs skinnier if they were able to. We haven't seen the battroid pics yet. Maybe when we see it in battroid mode we'll all praise Yamato for making it look so damned anime accurate.
Nani?! Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 I'm so glad I'm not burdened with extensive knowledge of aircraft technology. I just look at the pics and think "cool toy, I want one".Don't get me wrong, I want the toy to be the best it can be, but I'm convinced Yamato would make the legs skinnier if they were able to. We haven't seen the battroid pics yet. Maybe when we see it in battroid mode we'll all praise Yamato for making it look so damned anime accurate. 424478[/snapback] Yep, I agree. They'll make whatever changes they can... Graham seems to be a fan of the yf-19 in it's other modes so I'm not really worried.. I just want to see the damn pics~~ it's the 12th now, so I guess another week or ten days we'll all be drooling. I sincerely hope that the flaws mentioned (the gut and the legs) aren't as noticeable as they are in the CAD renders.
kensei Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 Oh Graham, this looks soooo good, can we please have the revealed pics now? Pleeeeaasseee?
UN Spacy Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 Oh Graham, this looks soooo good, can we please have the revealed pics now? Pleeeeaasseee? 424498[/snapback] I second the notion!
isamu_dyson Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 (edited) +1 it looks great ... can't wait to see more detailed picts Edited August 12, 2006 by isamu_dyson
kensei Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 No matter how compromised the fighter mode is, the rest of the modes looks great. If the fighter mode is a compromise, it's the best damn compromise I've ever seen, or ever will see. Bring it on!
Graham Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 Early?, Wadda ya mean early, it's 8pm here ATM! Referring to David's post over the last few pages, I have to disagree that the YF-19's wings are supposed to have a downwards droop. Also, unless you want to have very slim legs in Battroid mode, it's not possible to have lower legs as slim as the non-transforming Hasegawa kit in fighter mode. Because Kawamori used a lot of anime magic when he designed the YF-19, any transforming toy is going to involve some compromises between modes. I think Yamato have managed to minimise this as much as possible. Comparisons with SHE or other resin kits are not valid for many reasons. Resin kits are designed without regards to durability or proper locking together of parts or decent joints. Show me the last time you saw a ratchet joint on a resin kit. I ended up thowing out my expensive SHE YF-19, as after relitively few transformations, it was a floopy mess that wouldn't stand in battroid mode and wouldn't hold together in fighter mode. The origami type rear lower leg system of folding panels, while it did allow the shoulder to sit lower in fighter mode, was quite fiddly and fragile and may not work to well in a toy. Graham Graham
kensei Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 Referring to David's post over the last few pages, I have to disagree that the YF-19's wings are supposed to have a downwards droop. 424510[/snapback] Legs are great in battroid mode, from the look of the silouhette. Making the YF-19s wings droop is just making it overly fancy. Doesn't need that. I'll bet you'll be very happy with it Dave don't worry.
Sumdumgai Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 Oh man seeing the silhouhettes almost made me lose my sanity! Ohmanohmanohmanohman! I can't wait to see clear pics!
Dante74 Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 Can anyone translate the text on the pic? Does it say anything about a possible release date?
aaajin Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 (edited) from what it says, the release date is set to this coming August 19th between 10 am to 5 pm. so, we have 1A Angel Bird, 1A Kakizaki & Max AND this! yay ! oh BTW, of course Im j/k Edited August 12, 2006 by aaajin
e_jacob77 Posted August 12, 2006 Posted August 12, 2006 424498[/snapback] Hi all, It says something to the efect of having one at a hobby show on the 19th, booth open from 10 am to 5 pm... And I don't even read Japanese... Over in the covention/gatherings section there is a post on upcoming events this month and there is one on the 19th and wonderfest on the 20th.......
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