The 2nd Coming of the YF-19

[eugimon]

you know guys... once a mold is cast, you can't go back and tweak it. You have to make a brand new mold for the new design. And since those babies are carved out of big blocks of stainless steel... it's kind of expensive.

And given how different the YF-19 is compared to the VF-19s, there would be a significant amount of cost involved.

I'm not saying I wouldn't mind seeing a VF-19 excalibur, I'm just saying it's not as easy as some might think.

[recon]

eugimon..haha ok that rules out M7 variants. So most likely we will be seeing lesser paint schemes from the YF19 molds.

[Macross73]

i would think that yamato would want to milk the

mold for all its worth. though i dont want to see

an Angel Bird version. Other schemes would be

ok.

paint scheme in Game color or Grey or Black or Cammo

[kensei]

Is there a difference though between the VF-19A and the YF-19? I didn't think so.

The differences can only be seen from the F, S and P. But another mold could cover all of that.

I'm thinking that they could make a whole new mold, and that they will, assuming that they take up the M7 licence. Because they have already got the difficult bit sussed out, how the damn thing will transform. MOre than half the battle is already over.

[David Hingtgen]

I'll say it for the fourth or fifth time:

Basara's VF-19 is not a "little" different from Isamu's YF-19. It's like 70% different.

And as eugimon said--you can't tweak a mold*. You have to make a new one. And they cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for a full set to make a valk.

*it is possible to change a mold to make a different product. However, it is permament and rarely done. As in, if they changed the YF-19 mold to make a VF-19Kai, it could never ever make a YF-19 again. Most of the time, when people say a mold was changed, what REALLY happened is some single piece got a new mold for it. A "changed" canopy for example is almost never a re-worked canopy mold--it is a very small NEW mold just for that new canopy (or a new section added on to the original mold) , with the old canopy part of the old mold blocked off. Or, if they made new molds of just the parts needed and used YF-19 molds where possible--again, it'd cost most of what the original YF-19 cost all over again. That's a lot of money for one single color scheme. The VF-19F/S would require even more new molds/parts. If you build model kits (especially Hasegawa/Tamiya) you should be very familiar with how various combinations of sprues and parts are molded--things added and removed, etc.

**Permanent changes are often done to FIX things, not make a new version. Look at all the 1/48 changes to the mold. They weren't making new variants, they actually changed the molds permanently to fix things like loose flaps and nosecones. There's no need to retain the original, and since it's not a new mold it's fairly cheap.

Edited August 2, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[aaajin]

Camo for a -19 would suck.....noo... I just cant imagine that...

here's what I thinik they'll come out with :

YF-19

yay

j/k

YF-19

VF-19A

VF-19 super Nova I (ala the ones shown by Graham)

VF-19 super Nova II

Low Vis da bomb

Stealth still cant imagine ho it would look like...

Angelbird would be nice

DYRL

Camo

aaajin

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I'm really only interested in the yf19 as it appeared in macross plus. But if it helps us see more mac + goodness I will buy repaints like game edition and stuff.

If you look in macross design works you will see all the changes for all the 19 valks. Even though it looks similar there is lotsa changes between the variants. (I just hope they get the mac 7 license for things like the vf11 full armor and vf22 and possibly 17S and 17D. Would love an upgrade from the bandai 17.)

If I want the vf19 as they appeared in macross 7, I don't expect to call these repaints of a macross plus toy. But a whole new thing that I would want as well as macross plus valks. If you think about it, why NOT do macross 7 valks while doing the macross plus stuff? The valks are still pretty similar and the transformation basically the same. (we can always use the argument that they went down the path in releasing the koenig monster so I still think it wouldn't be out of the question for them to attempt macross 7 stuff)

So yeah..if yamato could get the macross 7 license and give us the black VF22S I will be very happy. "A black variable Qrau" Yummy. Maybe they could also do up the Yellow Qrau that appeared in "fleet of the strongest women"? Everything will look good too since it is all 1/60.

Edited August 2, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[jenius]

I still think that even if Basara's valk is 90% different it's not a huge deal. The engineering is the same. They would just have to reproduce the existing molds with lots of minor tweaks and slap it together just like the previous toy. Costs would not be prohibitive. If your point is that they wouldn't do it because it involves effort and they could just repaint the thing non-canon colors and keep selling it then you very may well be right.

Edited August 2, 2006 by jenius

[kensei]

so when's yamato gonna release a yf-21 to rival the d'stance model kit?? honestly, i was never that much of a fan of the 19 but if they pull it off, i'll buy every macross plus and macross zero valks they come out with...

421721[/snapback]

I think it's a safe bet as trhe YF-21 and the VF-11 are no really mystery to design.

[David Hingtgen]

The thing is, IMHO, the YF-21 has the most anime magic of all. Look at the sides of fighter mode, namely what happens to the shoulders/arms. Yamato flat-out ignored 100% of what happens, the SHE kit did SOME of what happens. I still think you could do a decent (though oversized) representation. Anything is better than "giant gaping holes you can see though". There really needs to be some flaps that fold out from the belly plates to form the sides of the fighter, or something. A new, GOOD YF-21/VF-22 will need major work on the fighter mode sides. I don't think the real issue people have with the current one is how *fat* it looks from the side, it's the fact that it's completely open with robot arms visible inside. Just cover that up and it looks "whole" like all the other valks.

jenius---while a VF-19F/S/Kai may have the same transformation sequence as a YF-19, the angles/fit are all different due to differently shaped parts. In 3 dimensions. It would take many hours of work to figure out how to make it work. They'd basically have to start from scratch. Yes, the chest flips up and over the nose, but most of those parts are shaped differently and no longer fit together like they did. Also, think how little clearance there is in a 1/48 VF-1, like transforming the head through the chest plate--now imagine the head was slightly larger and the chest hole slightly smaller. Now it just plain doesn't work as there isn't room. That's the issue you run into with redesigning the YF-19. Not only would the new parts not fit together in fighter mode, they might not even be transformable. Anyone who's transformed the original Yamato YF-19 knows there's NO room to even slightly change a part, or it won't fit together nor transform at all. And even then, you still scrape paint on every transformation due to how close the tolerances are. You couldn't just put bigger legs in and expect all the parts surrounding them in fighter mode to still fit. Again--changing one part means all the parts around it has to be modified to fit---in 3D for all 3 modes. If they start with battroid and modify it to look like Basara's, it may make fighter mode look 10x worse. And vice-versa. To have a balance in all 3 modes---might as well just start from scratch, as all the hours spent tweaking the YF-19 won't matter much.

Basically--you can't just "tweak" a few parts and expect them to fit. "fatter calves" will royally screw up how every other part they touch fits, as will "new wingroots".

You can modify "edge" parts that don't touch anything else. Like say canards, ventral fins, or nosecone--they don't affect anything in the transformation, they just sit there only attached to one piece along one edge. Those could be easily changed. But the legs and intakes? The intake is the very core of the YF-19 transformation--changing that changes the fit/positioning of over half of the main pieces.

Finally--I think the VF-19S uses a bit more "anime magic" than the standard YF-19. The overall body proportions get REALLY exaggerated on the VF-19F/S/Kai. The legs are just HUGE and incredibly rounded. YF-19 is a bit more "realistic" and squared off.

Edited August 2, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[recon]

Thats a very detailed explanation David, well if yamato does a Super Nova I/II as an alternate paint scheme, i would be most contented. Being said that there isnt much color schemes that could be churn for the YF19 mold unless its a custom and unique scheme

Cheers

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

I don't think the real issue people have with the current one is how *fat* it looks from the side, it's the fact that it's completely open with robot arms visible inside. Just cover that up and it looks "whole" like all the other valks.

Worse than that: It's not even inside the plane but just hanging out. hehe

Edited August 2, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Phren]

Thats a very detailed explanation David, well if yamato does a Super Nova I/II as an alternate paint scheme, i would be most contented. Being said that there isnt much color schemes that could be churn for the YF19 mold unless its a custom and unique scheme

Cheers

421816[/snapback]

Which is *exactly* what I'm hoping for. Seriousy, with a bit of thought put in, Yamato's colorscheme-roulette could have some awesome results for something like the 19 or other advanced Valks. Pretty much all VF-1's look similar to me at this point, but looking at that picture I saw of an 11B painted a modified Roy/Skull leader scheme, it completely chaged how it looks in my eyes

[David Hingtgen]

I just find the "Isamu" scheme to be awesome, and pretty much couldn't be improved upon, so I'm happy with just that.

Though as I said before--Max and Millia colors.

PS--just so people know, I like the VF-19S a lot, and would buy one in Emerald Force (Mac7) colors in a second. I just don't think it'd happen, due to how much remolding some key parts involves.

PPS--the YF-19 looks really good in the standard F-18 low-vis scheme, IMHO. Since the VF-1 first low-vis was F-15 style, the YF-19 could be F-18 style--which are the same colors, but a different pattern.

Edited August 2, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Shaggydog]

I keep thinking there's actual news or new pix in this thread. Instead I find out that the vf-19 is 70% different than the yf-19.

[eugimon]

I keep thinking there's actual news or new pix in this thread.  Instead I find out that the vf-19 is 70% different than the yf-19.   

421850[/snapback]

it's the new whine. With the 1/48 it was "why don't they give us all the different head variants?" and now it's this.

I hope we get repaints galore of the YF-19 and yes... the vf-19a in all it's 1950's baby blue glory... And I'm not even saying that the other variants are not coming, I'm just saying it would be more of a pain and more costly than some people think it would be.

And kudos to David for giving a much more in depth explanation!

[pfunk]

I'll say it for the fourth or fifth time:

Basara's VF-19 is not a "little" different from Isamu's YF-19.  It's like 70% different.

And as eugimon said--you can't tweak a mold*.  You have to make a new one.  And they cost hundreds of thousands of dollars for a full set to make a valk. 

421749[/snapback]

100+k for valk tooling, I dont think so. P20 toolsteel CNC and EDM cutdetailed and chromed might be at the top 20grand. Now if you count all the engineering, test shots and prototype runs and tools, youll run up the mula quick.

you can insert a tool to make diferent varients, but it ussually costs 1/3-1/2 the price of a new tool depending on the complexity. Also if not done properly you can have some pretty bad parting line/flash issues

[wwwmwww]

2) I guess it's safe to say that this is a totally new sculpt.

410136[/snapback]

Just found this thread and I'm up to page 3 so far. Boy... how do I miss this stuff?

Anyways may I ask who the sculpt is by? Are the folks from I.H.P/Liquid Stone involved?

If this has already been answered... just disregard,

Carl

[wwwmwww]

I can honestly confirm with whole-hearted sincerity that I have absolutely no idea whether Yamato has a D-Stance YF-21 or not.

Graham

410503[/snapback]

For a change I have something I want to say and can not. At least not yet. I really do hope to be able to share my news soon though.

Carl

[Dobber]

Are you try to be the new Sith Lord Around hear!?

Chris

[David Hingtgen]

100+k for valk tooling, I dont think so. P20 toolsteel CNC and EDM cutdetailed and chromed might be at the top 20grand. Now if you count all the engineering, test shots and prototype runs and tools, youll run up the mula quick.

you can insert a tool to make diferent varients, but it ussually costs 1/3-1/2 the price of a new tool depending on the complexity. Also if not done properly you can have some pretty bad parting line/flash issues

I've always seen/heard numbers well above the tens of thousands for most toys/models. But I certainly don't know, so won't argue.

Also would like to point out that Yamato has always had piss-poor mold alignment issues, with flash and mis-aligned parts since the beginning. I am not at all impressed by the 1/48's actual molding--not crisp, not even, not symmetrical, with poor fit. They also pay NO attention to the back/underside of parts it seems--if it's hidden in the final product it's left as rough as possible, and that sometimes interferes with fit. It's a lot better than their earlier stuff, but still not up to snuff, especially considering the price.

Maybe Yamato flat-out uses cheap molds... Maybe it's that molds to my standard cost 100K...

Edited August 2, 2006 by David Hingtgen

[Graham]

2) I guess it's safe to say that this is a totally new sculpt.

410136[/snapback]

Just found this thread and I'm up to page 3 so far. Boy... how do I miss this stuff?

Anyways may I ask who the sculpt is by? Are the folks from I.H.P/Liquid Stone involved?

If this has already been answered... just disregard,

Carl

421951[/snapback]

No they are not, not with this sculpt. They were several years ago, but IIRC, their submission wasn't really practical to be turned into a toy.

Graham

[Vermillion21]

I keep thinking there's actual news or new pix in this thread.  Instead I find out that the vf-19 is 70% different than the yf-19.   

421850[/snapback]

it's the new whine. With the 1/48 it was "why don't they give us all the different head variants?" and now it's this.

How true ... but you know you LOVE it!!!

[GutsAndCasca]

Graham can we please have battroid and gerwalk pics now?

Pleeeeeeeease?

[David Hingtgen]

I've been looking at every (AFAIK) other transforming YF-19 out there, and they all have "correct" size wings. If there's a reason why both the original and new Yamato ones have small wings, I'd love to hear it. I think we've been complaining about small-winged Yamato YF-19's for 5 years now, and there's still no known reason why Yamato makes them that way.

Frankly, I don't see how wingspan could possibly affect transformation---they just sit out there. Adding an inch won't do anything other than making fighter mode look better.

[1/1 LowViz Lurker]

They might scrape the ground too much is my guess. (lineart looks like they shrink in battroid modes)

"skinny battroid" example:

(note how close the the ground it is?) ..compared to..

the main things that might make battroid mode look off if they make a good fighter mode:

-long boob syndrome

-skinny limbs (making the fins at the back of legs stand out even more)

-hip kibble looks awkward the longer it gets

I'm thinking if they shortened the wings and fins and go for the shrunken parts look, they will get closer to the battroid mode lineart so that's probably the compromise they went for.

Graham can we please have battroid and gerwalk pics now?

Pleeeeeeeease?

and holding the tiny gunpod.

Edited August 3, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

[Graham]

Gunpod size looks fine in the pics I've seen.

Graham

[Dante74]

Graham, Could you give us an estimate on the release date?

I'm certain it won't be relaesed this year, but what month/quarter of next year might it be relaesed?

[GutsAndCasca]

Graham, Could you give us an estimate on the release date?

I'm certain it won't be relaesed this year, but what month/quarter of next year might it be relaesed?

422105[/snapback]

I second that inquisition.

[falcon14141]

Graham, Could you give us an estimate on the release date?

I'm certain it won't be relaesed this year, but what month/quarter of next year might it be relaesed?

422105[/snapback]

I second that inquisition.

422138[/snapback]

It's said to be for winter.... so let's assume December 2007 , if it comes earlier, it will just be a very pleasant surprise

[wwwmwww]

No they are not, not with this sculpt. They were  several years ago, but IIRC, their submission wasn't really practical to be turned into a toy.

Graham

421985[/snapback]

Thanks for the info Graham. Was it a 100% internal job or did they get any help? If some outside help was involved can you say anything about who and maybe what else they've done?

Just curious...

Carl

[wwwmwww]

Are you try to be the new Sith Lord Around hear!?

Chris

421980[/snapback]

I assume that's directed at me regarding my D-Stance related comment. If so no... I'm happy to let Graham have that title. My news isn't earth shattering or anything and no one would be after my head if I were to say it now. I just don't want to say too much until I'm 100% certain as to what I'm about to say is true. I should know one way or the other very very soon so I'm not going to put my foot in my mouth before then.

That's all...

Carl

[kensei]

The thing is, IMHO, the YF-21 has the most anime magic of all.  Look at the sides of fighter mode, namely what happens to the shoulders/arms.  Yamato flat-out ignored 100% of what happens, the SHE kit did SOME of what happens.  I still think you could do a decent (though oversized) representation.  Anything is better than "giant gaping holes you can see though".  There really needs to be some flaps that fold out from the belly plates to form the sides of the fighter, or something.  A new, GOOD YF-21/VF-22 will need major work on the fighter mode sides.  I don't think the real issue people have with the current one is how *fat* it looks from the side, it's the fact that it's completely open with robot arms visible inside.  Just cover that up and it looks "whole" like all the other valks. 

421794[/snapback]

Really? I think the D'Stance pulled that off pretty well, and I don't think it had to have parts removal.

[pfunk]

100+k for valk tooling, I dont think so. P20 toolsteel CNC and EDM cutdetailed and chromed might be at the top 20grand. Now if you count all the engineering, test shots and prototype runs and tools, youll run up the mula quick.

you can insert a tool to make diferent varients, but it ussually costs 1/3-1/2 the price of a new tool depending on the complexity. Also if not done properly you can have some pretty bad parting line/flash issues

I've always seen/heard numbers well above the tens of thousands for most toys/models. But I certainly don't know, so won't argue.

Also would like to point out that Yamato has always had piss-poor mold alignment issues, with flash and mis-aligned parts since the beginning. I am not at all impressed by the 1/48's actual molding--not crisp, not even, not symmetrical, with poor fit. They also pay NO attention to the back/underside of parts it seems--if it's hidden in the final product it's left as rough as possible, and that sometimes interferes with fit. It's a lot better than their earlier stuff, but still not up to snuff, especially considering the price.

Maybe Yamato flat-out uses cheap molds... Maybe it's that molds to my standard cost 100K...

421983[/snapback]

blame china for poor mold alignment, we offshore a lot to them and obviuosly japan does too. we allways have to do the finals before prototyping/testshots. give you an example a TPO high preasure injecting mold for the corvette (c6) front fascia was about 80K (thats not including changes before production). Thats a lot of steel and surface. When I was doing blow molds out of aluminum that were about 5'x2'x3' high (obviuosly split in half) they ran about 8 grand tested. Granted this was about 8 years ago, but the price for tooling is about the same, just the cost of the materials went up (count for about 1/3 of the final mold price)now when you factor in the quality and china is doing molds for about 2times the price of material. say material (p20 production steel (china usses a softer material, let alone toy production) would run aproximatly 6grand tops for a complete 1/48 yammie and double that you get 12g's. buy the time its all said and done, i would be very impressed if they had 20grand into one tool also, the second is allways cheaper since the cutter paths are allready done (ussually about 10%) now if you count all the engineering/cad/testing/raw material/shipping and packaging, I could see easily 100k long gone before the 1st tool is delivered and set in a injection molding press (manufacturers will use one mold (ussing sprues and gates similar to plastic models) for most the parts so the color between batches is the same)

[David Hingtgen]

Re: wing length. There's a VERY simple solution for battroid mode to prevent them from hanging too low or hitting the ground: Angle them back another few degrees when you transform it. They're on hinges, and every pose requires a different angle. The wings aren't locked in place at some 37.45 degree angle in battroid mode (and it changes in all the lineart--they're at whatever angle looks cool, with exaggerated perspective), they're at "whatever angle they need to be at".

The original Yamato YF-19 was the same--you could angle them from almost straight down to straight back, depending on how you wanted it to look and what pose it was in. The wings could have been quite a bit longer, and all you'd need to do was angle them "to the next notch back on the little circular plastic hinge piece". Which is why I always wanted finer teeth on the gear, to fine-tune what angle they were at. Half the time they were too low, but the next notch made them too high.

PS---about the D'Stance YF-21. If you go WAY back and check the only archived thread about it from 2003, I have one of the first replies, and talk about they did better on the shoulders/sides of the fighter mode! I had totally forgotten I posted that. It's still way off though, and would need more work. You just have to have separate panels folding out from the belly plates--there is just NO WAY to have multiple, round, ball-joint segments of the shoulder, elbow, and arm, make a single flat rectangular shape! Stop trying to do the impossible, and just have the arms tuck further inside (with the legs) and have some panels flip up to cover up the gap. The "other" side of the belly plates aren't used anyways, they could easily accomodate a few simple folding panels, with hinges along their edges.

PPS--the D'stance part of MW is still "under construction"--I only have the instructions saved. Anyone still have pics of the actual model?

Edited August 4, 2006 by David Hingtgen