Macross Political Climate

[KingNor]

now that i think about it, i'm not sure i've ever seen a valk take off straight up in gerwalk before

[GutsAndCasca]

I have to ask --- is it not so frowned upon in Japanese culture to date/marry/screw your relatives? I mean. Kaifun and Minmay are sorta'... well you know. And lately I've seen a few animes that have brothers and sisters acting a little too friendly.

[Zinjo]

Ok this one is somewhat political:

"reaction" weapon is a thinly veiled codeword for Nuclear weapon in SDF Macross,  right?

This was part of what the Zentradi were intrested in iirc.

Why didn't we see the Macross firing nukes at the Zent's during SW1?

Did the UN ban nukes on the new flagship?  Even as late as M7 we still see "lead-firing" guns, so I don't think it was part of a shift to energy weapons.  why no nukes?

There were also tactical concerns, as seen in the first episode. The initial nuking of the zentradi in the first strike left most of their sensors blind.

I believe that is the main reason why Global never really relied on the Nukes during the war.

He had a massive enemy fleet to keep track of and to be blind even for a few hours was very dangerous for them.

Besides, he had an energy canon that would do the same job, and it didn't mess with his sensor array.

As for Mac 7, they did use nukes, but the weapons were severely restricted in their use. Max had to get special permission from Spacy command before being allowed to use them.

I have to ask --- is it not so frowned upon in Japanese culture to date/marry/screw your relatives? I mean. Kaifun and Minmay are sorta'... well you know.

This is way "off topic"... You may want to start another thread to explore that little gem...

[JB0]

As for Mac 7, they did use nukes, but the weapons were severely restricted in their use.  Max had to get special permission from Spacy command before being allowed to use them.

And I don't even want to THINK about how big a yield those things had, given they were a step up from the Mac7 cannon, which was presumably of similar class to the original SDF-1 cannon.

[Mephistopheles]

I have to ask --- is it not so frowned upon in Japanese culture to date/marry/screw your relatives? I mean. Kaifun and Minmay are sorta'... well you know. And lately I've seen a few animes that have brothers and sisters acting a little too friendly.

414803[/snapback]

Everyone seems pretty cool with it in the show... are they actually cousins or is it some cultural thing?

[GutsAndCasca]

Incest IS political! Politics determines its social acceptance, and legality.

[Zinjo]

Incest IS political! Politics determines its social acceptance, and legality.

So you are trying to argue that in the 21st century of the Macross Universe, incestuous leanings are supposedly acceptable?

Hmmm..... Sounds like an attempted hijack to me...

Edited July 10, 2006 by Zinjo

[KingNor]

I dont' think he's hijacking i've wondered this too.

Actually doesn't minmay make some kind of refrence about how "you're my cousin!!!" type thing, and Hikaru seems to think there is something going on with them.

Post SW1 who knows how desperate people were for repopulateing the planet. Cultural/Genetic taboos may have shifted to allow more "bodys" to get born.

I think this could be a very political part of their situation, much like abortion is for us.

I'll have to watch the episodes again but I'm pretty sure Minmay makes some kind of mention she doesn't want him because they're related. However since no one else seems to be disturbed, maybe that sort of thing has become common place?

Edited July 10, 2006 by KingNor

[Zinjo]

I dont' think he's hijacking i've wondered this too.

Actually doesn't minmay make some kind of refrence about how "you're my cousin!!!" type thing,  and Hikaru seems to think there is something going on with them.

Post SW1 who knows how desperate people were for repopulateing the planet.  Cultural/Genetic taboos may have shifted to allow more "bodys" to get born.

I think this could be a very political part of their situation, much like abortion is for us. 

I'll have to watch the episodes again but I'm pretty sure Minmay makes some kind of mention she doesn't want him because they're related.  However since no one else seems to be disturbed, maybe that sort of thing has become common place?

OK, with that basis for the argument, I agree it would become a political issue on Post War Earth, dispite the mass cloning going on.

[JB0]

If I recall, Kaifun is a somewhat distant cousin.

For what it's worth.

*looks it up*

According to the Compendium, he's her cousin, but not by blood relation. Looks like his mom married into the Lynn family and he got dragged along with her.

[Zinjo]

If I recall, Kaifun is a somewhat distant cousin.

For what it's worth.

*looks it up*

According to the Compendium, he's her cousin, but not by blood relation. Looks like his mom married into the Lynn family and he got dragged along with her.

414918[/snapback]

Actually weren't Minmay's father and Kaifun's father(?) cousins themselves? I was under the impression they shared the same family name, but not through direct decendance.

That would make the two kids, second cousins.

However, cousin marriage is fairly common in Japan, and isn't considered incest as is the case in North America and many European countries.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1066789/posts

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/04/column...n.incest.04.09/

Edited July 10, 2006 by Zinjo

[KingNor]

Cloneing doesn't produce mutation though. If all you do is clone you become suseptable to being wiped out by some change in environment like disease.

you could almost argue that wanting to "help out" and work for the "big picture" coupled with a desire for space travel and adventure led to the natural selection of the survivors of SW1 (the ones on earth being substancially unable to cope with massive laser barages from space.) but that arguement would be streaching things awfuly thin. ;-)

[Zinjo]

Cloneing doesn't produce mutation though.  If all you do is clone you become suseptable to being wiped out by some change in environment like disease.

Look up the links in my modified post above regarding 1st cousin marriage.

Apparently, according to modern genetics; mutations and birth defects between cousins is mostly a myth, stemming from a poorly done scientific report published back in the 19th Century.

Edited July 10, 2006 by Zinjo

[JB0]

Cloneing doesn't produce mutation though.  If all you do is clone you become suseptable to being wiped out by some change in environment like disease.

It also results in a massive increase in accidental incest.

you could almost argue that wanting to "help out" and work for the "big picture" coupled with a desire for space travel and adventure led to the natural selection of the survivors of SW1 (the ones on earth being substancially unable to cope with massive laser barages from space.)  but that arguement would be streaching things awfuly thin.  ;-)

414931[/snapback]

*laughs*

I can hear Darwin spinning in his grave now.

Also, most of the survivors of Space War 1 had no plans for space travel. They were accidental travellers.

BUT! The analogy isn't totally flawed.

The modern-day cheetah exhibits a shallow gene pool and general poor health. Every current cheetah is more closely related genetically than brother and sister. And they have dull claws, weak jaws, lousy eyesight, bad EVERYTHING except speed(which they can't sustain due to poor stamina).

There's very good odds that at some point in history the cheetah population was decimated by something. The surviving population that modern cheetahs are descended from was very small, and apparently consisted primarily of the cheetah version of Steve Urkel.

But the point is, it's an entire population almost completely destroyed by something beyond their control.

[GutsAndCasca]

If I recall, Kaifun is a somewhat distant cousin.

For what it's worth.

*looks it up*

According to the Compendium, he's her cousin, but not by blood relation. Looks like his mom married into the Lynn family and he got dragged along with her.

414918[/snapback]

Actually weren't Minmay's father and Kaifun's father(?) cousins themselves? I was under the impression they shared the same family name, but not through direct decendance.

That would make the two kids, second cousins.

However, cousin marriage is fairly common in Japan, and isn't considered incest as is the case in North America and many European countries.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1066789/posts

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/LAW/04/column...n.incest.04.09/

414926[/snapback]

A-ha! That explains a LOT.

[GutsAndCasca]

Cloneing doesn't produce mutation though.  If all you do is clone you become suseptable to being wiped out by some change in environment like disease.

It also results in a massive increase in accidental incest.

you could almost argue that wanting to "help out" and work for the "big picture" coupled with a desire for space travel and adventure led to the natural selection of the survivors of SW1 (the ones on earth being substancially unable to cope with massive laser barages from space.)   but that arguement would be streaching things awfuly thin.  ;-)

414931[/snapback]

*laughs*

I can hear Darwin spinning in his grave now.

Also, most of the survivors of Space War 1 had no plans for space travel. They were accidental travellers.

BUT! The analogy isn't totally flawed.

The modern-day cheetah exhibits a shallow gene pool and general poor health. Every current cheetah is more closely related genetically than brother and sister. And they have dull claws, weak jaws, lousy eyesight, bad EVERYTHING except speed(which they can't sustain due to poor stamina).

There's very good odds that at some point in history the cheetah population was decimated by something. The surviving population that modern cheetahs are descended from was very small, and apparently consisted primarily of the cheetah version of Steve Urkel.

But the point is, it's an entire population almost completely destroyed by something beyond their control.

414962[/snapback]

*laughing* oh my gosh, I never really thought of Cheetahs as gimps up until now. I don't think that image of the Urkel-cat will ever fade. I gotta' tell my wife about this one. As for cousin-marriage not producing defects, I believe it. Look at the Hawaiian islands. For God knows how long those people basically inbred, and they are healthy as HECK. Same goes for many other island cultures.

[Zinjo]

*laughing* oh my gosh, I never really thought of Cheetahs as gimps up until now. I don't think that image of the Urkel-cat will ever fade. I gotta' tell my wife about this one. As for cousin-marriage not producing defects, I believe it. Look at the Hawaiian islands. For God knows how long those people basically inbred, and they are healthy as HECK. Same goes for many other island cultures.

414994[/snapback]

Yeah, even I was a bit surprised when I turned that up during my searches. I guess the whole cousin thing is more cultural in the West, than we ever imagined.

Though with mass clonings as there were it is very conceivable that you'd have more than a few pairings of unaware siblings over time.

[GutsAndCasca]

You wouldn't really have to do any pairings though, with cloning...?

[KingNor]

you want breeding to occur along side of cloning though, thats how you keep things fresh (geneticly)

if all you do is clone, then one day some weird virus shows up and wipes out your entire comunity.

Reproduction as opposed to cloneing creates mutation which allows individuals to be diffrent. Diffrence is what allows individuals to survive problems in the environment and pass on important(sometimes dormant) genes to future generations.

[Mephistopheles]

Even so, Kaifun's seed needs to be removed from the world. Hikaru should have arranged an accident for that fool.

[KingNor]

Even so, Kaifun's seed needs to be removed from the world. Hikaru should have arranged an accident for that fool.

415271[/snapback]

I'm not sure how political that kind of action would be. Maybe Hikaru could petittion the house to have Kaifun removed from operations. A 75% vote might be enough.

[Mephistopheles]

Even so, Kaifun's seed needs to be removed from the world. Hikaru should have arranged an accident for that fool.

415271[/snapback]

I'm not sure how political that kind of action would be. Maybe Hikaru could petittion the house to have Kaifun removed from operations. A 75% vote might be enough.

415283[/snapback]

Political since the guy was going around creating rifts between the public and the government at a time when that was the last thing the people needed. Maybe before the war it could be tolerated but not when over 97% of the population was wiped out and the Earth turned into a wasteland.

[GutsAndCasca]

I'd have voted to have Kaifun put to sleep.

[Mephistopheles]

I'd have voted to have Kaifun put to sleep.

415348[/snapback]

Good thing he didn't get anyone pregnant. Not that any of the women in Macross were allowed to have kids anyway.

[Nomake Wan]

I have to ask --- is it not so frowned upon in Japanese culture to date/marry/screw your relatives? I mean. Kaifun and Minmay are sorta'... well you know. And lately I've seen a few animes that have brothers and sisters acting a little too friendly.

414803[/snapback]

Minmei and her family are Chinese, not Japanese. Just trying to put another possible aspect into the view.

[Mephistopheles]

I have to ask --- is it not so frowned upon in Japanese culture to date/marry/screw your relatives? I mean. Kaifun and Minmay are sorta'... well you know. And lately I've seen a few animes that have brothers and sisters acting a little too friendly.

414803[/snapback]

Minmei and her family are Chinese, not Japanese. Just trying to put another possible aspect into the view.

415965[/snapback]

I was surprised that they left the cousins bit in when Harmony Gold turned it into Robotech. I tell you what, if my girlfriend started to make out with her cousin I think the relationship would be over forever. Maybe that is why Hikaru chose Misa over Minmay.

Edited July 14, 2006 by Mephistopheles

[GutsAndCasca]

So people weren't allowed to have kids onboard the Macross? I don't think that's true, I mean.. Max and Milia had a kid. Plus with so many pilots dying off they might as well try and do some futile reproducing.

[Mephistopheles]

So people weren't allowed to have kids onboard the Macross? I don't think that's true, I mean.. Max and Milia had a kid. Plus with so many pilots dying off they might as well try and do some futile reproducing.

416073[/snapback]

The women aboard Macross were not allowed to have children so they wouldn't contaminate the purity of Earth.

By the way, Gobal should have issued a no contact order for Misa and Hikaru. You can't have a pilot dating the strategic operations officer as they will have trouble putting them in harms way.

Edited July 14, 2006 by Mephistopheles

[KingNor]

So people weren't allowed to have kids onboard the Macross? I don't think that's true, I mean.. Max and Milia had a kid. Plus with so many pilots dying off they might as well try and do some futile reproducing.

416073[/snapback]

The women aboard Macross were not allowed to have children so they wouldn't contaminate the purity of Earth.

By the way, Gobal should have issued a no contact order for Misa and Hikaru. You can't have a pilot dating the strategic operations officer as they will have trouble putting them in harms way.

416135[/snapback]

well technically i think militarys already have that sort of thing in place.

Then again, Global proved to be a very perceptive guy, maybe he figured he needed Misa to be happy more than he needed Hikaru to be a useful pilot.

Crabby Misa = Bad news.

Happy Misa = New hottness.

[Zinjo]

The women aboard Macross were not allowed to have children so they wouldn't contaminate the purity of Earth.

Huh?

By the way, Gobal should have issued a no contact order for Misa and Hikaru. You can't have a pilot dating the strategic operations officer as they will have trouble putting them in harms way.

By the time they were "officially" dating Misa was no longer the SOO, she had been promoted out of that role.

If I remember correctly, Vanessa was promoted to the new SOO after SW1.

[Mephistopheles]

The women aboard Macross were not allowed to have children so they wouldn't contaminate the purity of Earth.

Huh?

By the way, Gobal should have issued a no contact order for Misa and Hikaru. You can't have a pilot dating the strategic operations officer as they will have trouble putting them in harms way.

By the time they were "officially" dating Misa was no longer the SOO, she had been promoted out of that role.

If I remember correctly, Vanessa was promoted to the new SOO after SW1.

416199[/snapback]

Doesn't matter you're not allowed to date your superiors in any military if they are in your chain of command. Misa was definitely in Hikaru's chain of command. Misa being happy is of little consequence as if she is unable to put Hikaru into harm's way it could have grave consequences. The military doesn't like to take chances so they would and should put a stop to it. I've seen these orders given many times in my military career.

[JB0]

Doesn't matter you're not allowed to date your superiors in any military if they are in your chain of command. Misa was definitely in Hikaru's chain of command. Misa being happy is of little consequence as if she is unable to put Hikaru into harm's way it could have grave consequences. The military doesn't like to take chances so they would and should put a stop to it. I've seen these orders given many times in my military career.

416279[/snapback]

Aside from Global not being a very "by the book" commander...

Pre-armageddon it didn't matter. They barely even tolerated each other. By the time they were ready to admit they did anything more than that, she was headed to the Grand Cannon and knew her father wasn't going to send her back to the Macross.

Post-armageddon all the rules are diffrent.

The population is decimated, the human race is on the brink of extinction, the entire existing political infrastructure is vaporized, and for all they know the zentradi are coming back for round 2.

Breeding becomes of paramount importance. Not just to repopulate the Earth, but to create enough "surplus" humans that colony missions are possible. Any regulation that limits breeding possibilities would likely not make it into the books of the new UN forces for that reason alone.

[Dachande16]

I'd have voted to have Kaifun put to sleep.

415348[/snapback]

Good thing he didn't get anyone pregnant. Not that any of the women in Macross were allowed to have kids anyway.

415893[/snapback]

So what happened to ALL the kids then?

Random thoughts

Once the population started dropping would they have relaxed that rule. Besides what was the ratio of men to women?

How many kids "could've" been conceived on the drive back from "outer space" or how many accidents in the back-seat of the SDF-1 (can they make a remake of Meatloafs song "Waiting for the end of time" or somesuch).

Compulsory abortion? Did they take samples from all combatants for future IVF purposes?

[Dachande16]

Also

The women aboard Macross were not allowed to have children so they wouldn't contaminate the purity of Earth.

Like, what !?!

If women are from Earth & men are from Earth then there is no "Purity" issue!

Aw gawd, I've got a stitch from laughing at that

[GutsAndCasca]

Is he talking about... hm. Maybe after Max and Milia had their kid they put a no breeding rule on their baby? Wouldn't make much sense though, since I'm pretty sure babies can't breed other babies.