Macross Political Climate

1/1 LowViz Lurker · June 26, 2006

You do realize that you changed your stance on the Anti-UN 100%, do you? From: both sides fighting for dominance, to one side fighting because they want to get in good with the aliens.

Three groups

1. UN - trying to unite the world to study the tech while lying to the public to maintain order - aliens are scary and will cause panic.

2. Anti-Un - Do not want to unite. "Why should we share anything". These don't want to be under the control of a central government.

3. those who don't care about the losses from the war, (either sides' losses) just war itself expanding to thier peaceful territory. They see the world from the point of view of an observer only. (the islanders hate whites for bringing thier war to thier island. Killing is wrong no matter the reason, so it stands to reason they would hate the sight of the un or anti un. Sara goes berserk in macross zero when she gets in the AFOS hoping to destroy everything.)

I put the idea forth that the third group could be studied and known about by secret organisations showing interest them but not wanting the rest of the world to share in this knowledge.

As a personal favor, can you not include references to other productions (or summaries of other productions) - as they muddle the issue on what point you are trying to make exactly - they also make reading and deciphering your posts (specifically what points you are trying to make) nih impossible.
Please & thank you.

Ok in many of the gundam shows there are usually more than 2 sides. Each side has these two factions:

1. Some of them are hardliners who want to use force to show strength (put fear to discourage the enemy from trying anything)

2. Some of them want to negotiote with the other side. Being nice, hopefully not having to use force to settle anything.

When both sides have the first type in control, it usually leads to wars.

For example when the Zabi Family dominates from the original gundam079, there ambition is to use fear to control his people and make them angry so that he can expand his influence and use weapons to conquer other people. Zabi family created a dictatorship in the show and used mobile suits as weapons to kill people.

The Zeon lose the war against the Federation.

In Zeta gundam the same thing happen to the government on earth:

The Titans were cruel and used all kinds of scare tactics to put fear into the public so that they will go along with thier stance. They were as bad as the Zabi family was in the original gundam having no shame in the need to kill innocents and going to new lows to maintain control.

When two sides get out of control there is sometimes a third side made up of former members of either governments forces, usually hoping to end the war quickly and peacefully, and these are the heroes in the story. The AEUG are an example.

Other types include:

- terrorists who fight because they realise thier side lost the war, so for them even during peacetime they got to get revenge and fight for future generations so thier side doesn't look bad. (it's like when your footy team loses and you are pissed that it makes your local team you support look bad so you start fights with members who are supporters of the team that won) The character, Gato in Gundam StarDust memory is a perfect example. He is patriotic, ashamed the zeon lost the war, and wants to pick fights after the One Year War. (think of that as like world war II) He is a massive threat after he steals/gundam-jacks a nuclear-equiped gundam model. Although he is a massive threat to the earth government, it seems as if he was "allowed" to get as far as he did and destroy many lives just so the earth government could prove a political point: That we need more powers to stop these individuals from harming us. Thus the Titans (anti terror group) was born and more power was granted. The hardliners would be pleased as this was the opportunity to show the world how evil the other side could be and gain sympathy from the public.

-arms dealers:

happy to create a new war to profit from the sale of new weapons. So they actually assist in the plan against the earth federation. (war is profitable when both sides are at each other's throat - so even though they are "neutral" they also are likely to create a threat and help the losing side to keep business going for as long as possible.)

the three groups:

1. The anti un = made up of people like gato. Very bitter and in a position to actually be a threat.

2. The un: like the earth federation. (has majority control. Sometimes cruel, as seen in footage in macross zero where nora accuses the un soldiers of having scarred her for life)

3. The secret group (I came up with from idea in other threads about this):

they are not patriots of thier own country just profiteers, and/or exist on neither side. (eg the islanders in macross zero) They have absolutley nothing to gain whether either side wins and are pissed at both of them for having destroyed thier culture and land, not to mention intend to steal thier magic religious items of worship. You could say the priestess were secret enough to know about the aliens, because they foretold a coming event before it would happen through some psychic vision.

Why does the third side likley to sympathise with the aliens?

-They may be related to them

-they've suffered from the foreigners taking away thier people to fight in wars

-see war as evil, so turn the anger at the people involved with them

-they might sympathise with the aliens out of fear: they don't want to anger them so they create some secret cult

-are quite unsympathetic to the loss of lives as they have hardened their hearts; seeing war as inevitable, and other people's suffering as ok. The character, Char Aznable at one point in Char's Counterattack is quite comfortable launching space colonies at earth to "teach people living on earth a lesson" Even if it means loss of innocent lives. Just to force people to migrate to space to save the earth from humans not letting mother earth "heal". (due to pollution from overpopulation and to make humans "evolve" into higher form through the effects space will have on the human mind - don't ask)

The islanders and other groups who know something will arrive (psychic visions?), may actually see benefits to aliens (maybe unite the world into peace or destroy the people they see as bad) but also fear that like a god it is coming to bring great destruction and catastrophe and judgment. (including them) So I figure there are secret organisations hoping to create backup plan. The un can exist, the anti un can exist, but both sides purpose is one step in a great scheme. They can help either side or hinder either side as they see fit. Not showing any loyalty to one or the other. If a few soldiers on the un side die, they hinder the plans of the anti-un. If the anti-un manages to kill too many pilots on the un side, they assist the un. Whoever gets too much power, they try to prevent from gaining more of it and wiping the other out completely. (record of lodoss war has a character like this, who is cynical of man's intent and knows that whoever wins the world will suffer, no matter what, if one side gains total control - evil can't be completely destroyed just because some do-gooder thinks he is righting wrongs in the world just by killing his enemies)

Now what I'm saying is: that the Unification Wars are allowed to go on because this hidden hand wants there to always be some kind of opposition to watch what the other side does. But in the end has insiders on either team to maintain control from behind the scenes. (allowing for them to actually plot how they will bring about the wars without themselves getting thier hands dirty, but for the purpose of prepping mankind for the coming event.) If they know about the aliens, know what man will do when it finds out about the aliens, know that all kinds of people will get thier hands on the tech, at least it can do something when the aliens eventually kill humans by having backup plan if the aliens turn hostile. (so it is quite possible for this secret group to ensure one side fight the other side but not wipe out the other side completely, because this secret group was the one that had the idea to bring about all the wars in the beginning. (ie they wanted man to suffer by purposely forcing him into war with himself in the hope people would eventually be sick and reluctant to fight - pacifying them through spreading enough fear on either side by showing the horrors of war. Like the neutral character in Lodoss War.)

My theory is that both anti-un, and UN are just two powers used by this group to ensure smaller groups fall into line under the control of the two main ones.

Doing that ensures that if you choose to fight, then you have to answer to a power or threat bigger than you, effectively discouraging anyone from a fight and maintaining peace. If one of the sides thinks it can win, it at least has to pick a fight with something its own size or threat level and this might discourage one from fighting the other because it has to take a risk. After the rain of death that balance was maintained, the secret group disapeared, and the anti-un didn't register a blip on the radar as much anymore since so many would have died in the greatest catastrophe on earth. (note that there is a good un and bad one. The good one took over after maintaining peace with aliens and humans had to start over)

Edited June 26, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

JB0 · June 26, 2006

Lurker: Allow me to draw a video game analogy.

Your version of military strategy = "ZERG RUSH KEKEKE!!!!"

War doesn't actually work that way.

There's a reason that modern military forces haven't replaced all their tanks with faster, smaller, and nimbler Jeeps, or phased their entire ground force out for a larger air force.

It's because what a tank does is useful.

Yes a Spartan COULD be made into something faster and lighter. But it would be like replacing a tank with a Jeep.

You could even make it a 3-mode variable mess(I think they did, and called it a Valkyrie). Then you'd be replacing a tank with a helicopter. Helicopters sure are neat, and serve many useful purposes, but I'd hate to live in a nation that used them as their sole means of defense.

Not none. Just that speed and time is what makes the offensive strategy important. The aliens with thier superior numbers, can leaving the main defense for thier main attack force, while the faster ones rush forward and slip through the cracks.

So your main force will engage the defenses, enabling your faster guys to sneak in before the main force engages the defenses?

And why do you think destroid pilots are stupid enough to ignore someone running straight at them?

And as for the point about zooming in to fight from a distance: in the movie that didn't happen. Just because you have zoom does not mean it is easy to hit a tiny targt from a long distance with that zoom. Any tiny sudden movement of the machine can put you off-target by heaps. So your hit percentage is low.

Get in your car. Turn it on. Don't touch the controls. What happens?

Machines aren't like people. They don't just move for no reason. They can be incredibly precise at incredibly long ranges.

As for the movie... You're saying that because DYRL didn't show a destroid with a zoom function that all weapons are restricted by the limitations of human sight?

And by blowing up an image, any tiny movement they make means you got to zoom back out just to see what it is you are looking at and where they moved. While you are trying to hit a zigzagging moving target, (blown up on your monitor with movements that are very jittery) that target might be slowly closing in or ready to fire its missiles on you.

Dedicated gunner ring a bell?

Also, battle machines are not held to the same restrictions as first-person shooters. They can have seperate targeting screens.

Video game = Silent Scope arcade machine.

(That is to say, while you are busy trying to aim at one enemy, there are 5 others rushing forward to close the distance at maximum speed to surround you to make it harder for you to get all of them - not all pilots are max jenuis accuracy!)

Ummmm... what exactly is the REST of the platoon doing while this one guy is being gang-raped by a half-dozen enemies? :rolleyes:

He tells me that a hammer is not used for cutting paper and tries to negate the advantage that there are machine that can do several tasks. As if a spartan, because it is specialised for close combat, then that automatically means a valk can't beat a spartan in close combat "since it is not dedicated"

You're right, that's a silly claim.

If it was Max in a locked battroid VS Kakizaki in a Spartan, the smart money would be on Max.

But it DOES mean that the Spartan is BETTER at the job.

Max in a locked battroid VS Max in a Spartan will result in the Spartan winning.

The VF has to make compromises because it fills multiple roles. The Spartan doesn't.

Every feature of the Spartan is a feature that is optimum for it's designed task. If a trade-off has to be made on a VF(and boy, do they have to be...), fighter mode gets the benefits.

I never said ANYTHING about a multi-purpose device having no advantages. In fact, I EXPLICTLY acknowledge the advantage of rapid deployment present in the variable Monster and the general versatility of the VF series.

I just think that, given it's poor armor and weaponry, the VF makes a lousy replacement for a Spartan, which is the only destroid it even comes close to matching the capabilities of.

It can't even PRETEND to replace a Tomahawk, Defender, or Monster, even with add-on modules.

I countered with: we have a clock radio which has a clock and a radio in one. The clock in the clock-radio doesn't suddenly make the clock worse in telling the time that the dedicated clock does, right?

And you ignore my continuation of the analogy, that the clockradio never replaced dedicated radios because it sucks as a radio.

The clockradio is a clock first and a radio second. The VF is a jet first and a robot second. Can you see where I'm going with this?

Hint: If radio = robot and clock = jet, clockradio = good clock and bad radio, and clockradio = valkyrie, then Valkyrie = good jet and bad _____.

So overall I put it at a lower level of ranking to other mecha.
-Spartans being weak for not being able to fly

You assume that's a weakness, because you assume that if a feature is on the VF-1 it is inherently useful, and that if a VF-1 lacks a feature it is because it is not needed.

Not everything needs to fly. Especially when it comes at the cost of primary design goals.

-anti air destroid not good at close range.

The POINT of anti-air weaponry is to kill an aircraft BEFORE it starts unloading weaponry.

If an anti-air weapon is firing at close range, it's ALREADY failed.

...

Or it's attempting to shoot down a missile, like the (real-world, non-destroid) Phalanx. Note that the real-world Phalanx is intended to be the FINAL line of defense, not the ONLY line of defense.

-monster being weighed down by armor (too specialised to move around unlike the variable version which is more threatening)

Actually, the variable Monster is every bit as slow, clumsy, and specialized as the regular one.

You also greatly overestimate the need for mobility in an artillery piece.

The Monster, variable or not, has a few major design goals.

To run through the list...

Major goal 1 is that it needs to fire big bullets.

Toward that end, it was equipped with quad 40cm cannons.

Major goal 2 is that it be stable enough to shoot accurately.

While firing 40cm shells. That's a lot of recoil it has to steady.

Major goal 3 is that it needs to withstand the recoil of said cannons.

It has to be bulked-up enough that the guns don't rip loose from their mounts. Newton's third law says every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Every time it fires a shell, it tries to fire the back end of the mech in the other direction. A 40cm shell for the Iowa-class masses around a thousand kilograms. If we assume projectiles for the Monster are of similar mass, that means that the Monster tries to blast a thousand kg of metal off the back end at the same speed as the shell leaving the barrel.

For comparison, the modern-day Abrams tank has a 120 MILLIMETER(12centimeter) cannon. The tank weighs almost 70 tons. It has a very low center of gravity. And it JUMPS BACKWARDS with every shot of the cannon.

The Monster has cannons along the lines of an Iowa-class BATTLESHIP in terms of projectile size(the Monster's cannons are twice as long, and range is over 3x greater, indicating a larger projectile velocity, and thus greater recoil).

And speaking of recoil... the Konig Monster uses it's railguns(an upgrade from the original Monster's conventional cannons) to expel plasma in shuttle mode as a form of propulsion. So apparently even at 102 thousand kilograms, an overglorified fart can send it flying through the air if not properly controlled.

Major goal 4 is that it needs to be able to survive the blast from the nuclear warheads it's dropping on people. Not all shells are dropped 160 km away, and some will be dangerously close. This necessitated massive armor, further increasing mass.

Major goal 5 is that it needs to be mobile, in the sense that it can walk from point A to point B.

Points 1-4 made this a very difficult goal to attain, and the final product has very limited mobility, with even walking on irregular surfaces being "not recommended."

Of course, the fact that the Monster made it into production with that fault shows that this was NOT considered a primary goal. Artillery doesn't need to be fast or nimble. It just needs to shoot stuff with big guns.

Agility, speed, and defense never really even entered the equation. Nobody cared. They are useless attributes in an artillery piece.

Heavy artillery costs a lot of mass, and mass is not good for speed and agility. No Monster will EVER be fast or nimble, just because it has such big guns.

The Mk2 had missile launchers, and the variable Monster added a small anti-aircraft gun, but both are still essentially incapable of self-defense and REQUIRE escorts.

And while the Konig is indeed lighter than the original Monster, it is still far more massive than any other human mecha, weighing in at 3x the next-highest destroid(the Phalanx, which likely owes much of it's mass to the large missile payload).

I WAS mistaken about speed, though. The Konig can break mach 1.

-Valks being good at various tasks while not being too weak at what it is not dedicated to. (so you can still fight reasonable well in close as you can in the air or against long and medium ranges. Thier weak armor being made up for by mobility, faster turning speed, less chunky body parts etc)

Again, you assume. And this time, you ignore evidence to the contrary to do so, not just logic.

The Valk has been SHOWN to be a lousy close-combat vehicle.

It can't even effectively fight a mech-less zentradi.

No matter how skilled he was, or how superior his genetics, Britai was still flesh and blood. For him to best a Valk with nothing but a RUSTY PIPE and RIP IT APART WITH HIS BARE HANDS, and come out of it COMPLETELY UNINJURED showcases how painfully inadequate the Valkyrie is for melee combat.

I'm out of this.

I wasn't even going to bother, except you explicitly called me out, and basically accused me of stuffing my ears full of soggy Mac&Cheese while shouting "I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA!"

I heard you quite clearly. Your logic is just painfully flawed.

KingNor · June 26, 2006

No matter how skilled he was, or how superior his genetics, Britai was still flesh and blood. For him to best a Valk with nothing but a RUSTY PIPE and RIP IT APART WITH HIS BARE HANDS, and come out of it COMPLETELY UNINJURED showcases how painfully inadequate the Valkyrie is for melee combat.

You know thats a very good point, and one i'd never considered.

It's too bad we never got to see a Spartan go "chewbaca" on a Zent and rip him limb from limb, would have been pretty sweet.

You have to think too... its not very likely that the 'commander' of the zents is MORE powerful phisically than the grunts. I bet the soldiers are even stronger.

Getting back on politcs kind of...

I wonder how the Zent rank structure works, with that point above, i really wonder what the physical abilitys of the zents are and why they would make a commander so resilliant.

If bretai was really the strongest physically in the fleet, i wonder if thats how he became commander? if so, i wonder what the zents would think of the humans structure, clearly Captain Global wasn't the strongest guy on the Macross.

Zinjo · June 26, 2006

You know if LowViz Lurker would stay away from Gundam references and stick to the facts, I'd have a hope and even the inclination to read his "book" aka his "forum post"... :rolleyes:

I have seen little of Gundam and it may be a very good show, but I don't have the common frame of reference to understand and have no wish to be "educated" in it either.

Stick to the basics man or people with stop reading your posts entirely.

BTW you wouldn't happen to be an X-Files fan would you? Many conspiracies and secret organizations from this Padawan I fear...

Edited June 26, 2006 by Zinjo

KingNor · June 26, 2006

Stick to the basics man or people with stop reading your posts entirely.

I try Lurkers posts every now and again, but realisticly i find something to argue with in every other line of his text .. and there is so much.. so i just ignore his posts for the most part.

JB0 · June 26, 2006

You have to think too... its not very likely that the 'commander' of the zents is MORE powerful phisically than the grunts. I bet the soldiers are even stronger.

I don't get why, but commanders seem to be built tougher.

When Britai's guys ask if he's okay, he says something to the effect of "I'm not built like you."

We also know Britai and Bodolzaa were very large for zentradi.

Or we can go to Britai's bio on the Compendium.

"As a commander type Zentradi, he possesses greater strength and endurance than the other two types, as well as the ability to survive short periods in space."

Getting back on politcs kind of...
I wonder how the Zent rank structure works, with that point above, i really wonder what the physical abilitys of the zents are and why they would make a commander so resilliant.

If bretai was really the strongest physically in the fleet, i wonder if thats how he became commander? if so, i wonder what the zents would think of the humans structure, clearly Captain Global wasn't the strongest guy on the Macross.

Best argument I can think of is that a commander's accumulated tactical knowledge makes them more valuable, so they're built tougher to improve survivability if their ship comes under attack.

No one CARES if the cannon fodder grunt dies, they can just pop out a new clone. But a commander with years of experience is a valuable asset.

Like everything else about humanity, the zentradi were likely completely baffled at our command structure.

We had a seasoned veteran as the captain of the ship, and the rest of his bridge crew were rookies fresh out of training(Claudia excepted). Almost no one on the bridge had any prior experience, and this was our primary ship.

GutsAndCasca · June 26, 2006

I always wondered about Breetai surviving in space in that particular episode. Can other Zentraedi do the same thing simply because they're so big, or is that "just a commander" thing?

JB0 · June 26, 2006

I always wondered about Breetai surviving in space in that particular episode. Can other Zentraedi do the same thing simply because they're so big, or is that "just a commander" thing?

411504[/snapback]

Humans can do it too if they prepare properly. The common belief that your blood pressure will make you explode and die is a myth. You won't last very long, and you'll probably spend a good deal of time recovering, but you CAN survive in a vacuum briefly.

According to the liner notes, that sequence was inserted partially to remind people that it wasn't impossible. ( http://www.animeigo.com/Liner/MACROSS.t and scroll down to episode 10 entry). It actually goes into a bit of detail on what actually happens, too. Says you only have a few seconds before blackout, but it's unclear how long Britai was actually exposed.

In the end, the dialouge undermined the point by emphasizing how freakish it was that Britai survived being spaced.

KingNor · June 27, 2006

I guess it makes sence to have the commanders more resillient, I bet they're harder to make, and who knows, bretai could be hundreds of years old, maybe they can't even make their class anymore??

who knows, i dont' think its covered anywhere.

but in theory, even if bretais ship was destroyed they could recover him and put him in a new one if he survived the battle. pretty neat.

sketchley · June 27, 2006

You know if LowViz Lurker would stay away from Gundam references and stick to the facts, I'd have a hope and even the inclination to read his "book" aka his "forum post"...
I have seen little of Gundam and it may be a very good show, but I don't have the common frame of reference to understand and have no wish to be "educated" in it either.

Stick to the basics man or people with stop reading your posts entirely.

BTW you wouldn't happen to be an X-Files fan would you? Many conspiracies and secret organizations from this Padawan I fear...

411442[/snapback]

I second that.

Above, when the thread briefly switched back to the thread topic, elements that have not been seen, nor mentioned, where added to his side of the debate.

The only thing I have to add about human sympathizers is: a) noone had met the aliens at that time, b) only a very few people knew about the aliens at that time (probably one of the justifications why it was kept a secret,) and c) they probably existed, but in the form of religious extremists and doomsday cults. These, of course, were probably rooted out as soon as they were detected - even by agencies/nations that were not part of the UN and had no idea about the existance of aliens. It's common sense, as these groups are highly destructive to themselves, and usually to other people!

Re: the Breetai in space thing.

I think the animeigo liner notes only serves to reinforce Breetai's above par abilities. In that he didn't black out, and was able to move a significant distance across the hull to another airlock. All of it happening in a vacuum, which is no doubt painful. (Or would it be liberating? Air has a certain weight and resistance that we've grown accustomed to - unaware of, in other words...)

KingNor · June 27, 2006

I do find it intresting, politically, that after so much work to unify the world, the SDF was made into a battle ship.

Clearly the ship was abandoned. In space, and apandoned ship could arguably drift for many times the life span of a civilization with out hitting something.

I don't know much about warp/spacefold but it could have easily been in fold for millenia for all the humans know.

I know in real life, there would be at least a push to have it refitted as an exploration, ambasador ship or something.

I mean we finally unify the planet.. so we can build a battle ship? kind of ironic.

even more ironic is in the end, had the weapons systems been removed, the zentradi may well have ignored us if the ships weapons hadn't gone off.

they definately would have thought it odd that we'd had dismantled and rebuilt a gunship as a pleasure boat, but i think they would have simply followed orders to "stay away from miclones at all costs" had we not shown any capacity fight them

sketchley · June 27, 2006

Falicy patrol:

1) the SDF-1 (at the time ASS-1) defolded at moon orbit, in 1999. Immediately it crash landed on the Earth, destroying lots of cities, and lowering Mt. Everest by at least a 100 m (or was it 1,000 m?)

2) There was evidence of weapons of war on the SDF-1. In fact, the forward 1/3 of the ship is one big gun. That says a lot about the nature of the aliens.

3) The UN Wars started AFTER the crash landing of the SDF-1. Presumably it is because 1 group wanted to be the leadership of the rest of the world, and other groups disputed their ideology, and contested their claims to power.

Yes, the ship could have been drifting for a millenia. However, it is also possible that the teams sent to investigate the ship found stored data indicating otherwise. Maybe the found nothing. Maybe during transit from the moon's orbit to Earth, people monitored the ship moving and changing direction.

Nevertheless, with a crash landed ship with the forward 1/3 of it being a single giant gun... it does make one think about the nature of the aliens out there. Which brings up the next point:

4) The eve before launching, the leadership of Earth basically ordered Captain Gloval to not fire first, attempt diplomacy and a peaceful first contact.

5) the Zentraedi were deliberately following the ship - registering it's defold from 10 light years away (in other words, 10 years after the ship arrived.) They came searching for it. Even if all the weapons were removed, the Zentraedi would still have done something to or about the ship - given the standard operating tactics of the Zentraedi, a peaceful resolution wouldn't have entered their minds. (Scortched earth tactics...)

EDIT: forgot to add this:

6) the UN Wars were fought to keep control of the information and technology resulting from the crashed alien ship. The most obvious reason would be the ensuing panic and chaos resulting from any public release of information that there are giant aliens with stupifyingly powerful weapons folding around the galaxy. For that reason alone (preventing the end of life as we know it, and maintaining stability) is more than enough justification to keep it secret. (Something that the Anti-UN also complied to, it should be noted.)

Edited June 27, 2006 by sketchley

1/1 LowViz Lurker · June 27, 2006

Lurker: Allow me to draw a video game analogy.
Your version of military strategy = "ZERG RUSH KEKEKE!!!!"

War doesn't actually work that way.

There's a reason that modern military forces haven't replaced all their tanks with faster, smaller, and nimbler Jeeps, or phased their entire ground force out for a larger air force.

It's because what a tank does is useful.

Yes a Spartan COULD be made into something faster and lighter. But it would be like replacing a tank with a Jeep.

You could even make it a 3-mode variable mess(I think they did, and called it a Valkyrie). Then you'd be replacing a tank with a helicopter. Helicopters sure are neat, and serve many useful purposes, but I'd hate to live in a nation that used them as their sole means of defense.

I never said destroid were not useful. Nor did I say tanks were not useful. But that there are room for improvement. A variable destroid like the monster can fly over mountainous terrain or forego having to walk through the stuff. It's more a threat if it can fly as well. Variable fighters in macross zero beat normal ones because they can offer more flexibility.

Against an alien race with big numbers there is the threat that if the destroids or anti air defense fails (and it does) then a valk needs to rush in and take out those that managed to slip past the defenses.

Three example in macross where this happens:

1. In macross Zero while shin is fighting the anti-un, a base is blown up. They were sent to fight decoys. The destroid provide some defense but against faster pilots that expect those tough defenses and can dodge anything that is thrown thier way, there needs to be a vf to take them on and at least match the speed to be able to shoot it down. I admit it has more to do with the pilots than the machines but that just brings home my point that a situation where an ace can create an opportunity to kill the crew of a ship still exists as a valid threat. Destroids can't be everywhere, and people's attention can be divided, so a faster machine able to keep up to be able to shoot one down is necessary.

2. In DYRL hikaru and the others are out there fighting the regults and "OH poo!" It's a diversion to keep our attention away from protecting the sdf1. The zentradi send in thier powered suits, manage to get past the weakened defenses, and actually breach the hull killing innocent people. Hikaru sees the plan, races at high speed back to the sdf1 and protects the bridge (could have been a kamikaze attack which might have wiped out the crew) and races to fight the ones that got through those defenses. You need speed to respond that quickly. Of course misa would never admit she screwed up here. But it is obvious if hikaru had not got there in time things could have been worse.

3. In SDF:Macross when the regult sneak past the defenses and submerge in the water, attacking the city around the sdf1 and hoping to surround the ship. It wasn't destroid that had to race back to a zone to defend the ship but VF which had the speed to make it in time.

In all instances I can see advantages to having a machine able to get there in time at high speed, transform into whatever robot mode (offers good enough armor) they have for cover, and fight the alien mecha. That doesn't mean destroids are useless but I was merely pointing out that I rate the valk as a higher and more useful machine because of the variable modes. To an ace they may be more concerned with shedding some weight if it means more opportunities to fight against the faster targets able to get past the defenses more effectively. (so sometimes you will see a character in the show come up with some invention or pioneering technique that sets them apart from the others)

In no way was I saying we should scrap the destroid, but that if a variable mode was added (like with the monster) it might fill up a gap lacking in the current generation of destroid. Just as we graduated from propeller planes to jets, having more speed can make a big difference in terms of how much damage an enemy is allowed to do. Lighter airframe can be worth it with the idea that you can cover more distance in shorter time. (and if you are good pilot you will never ever let yourself be put in a situation that exposes your ass as an easy target, like the way nora or shin fought in macross Zero. A good pilot has a way to never let another pilot take a free shot by following careful guidelines. In fact that is probably why shin was so upset he got shot down: maybe this was the first time he ever let somebody get a shot at him and this hurt his ego since he puts lots of effort in not making stupid mistakes.

I'm not disagreeing that destroid that are dedicated to fighting on the ground wouldn't be better than one not designed specifically for that (any more than I am arguing an F1 racer is better than a 4 wheel drive in going in rough territory) but that rather: a destroid does have limits (just like a valk) and even after taking this into account (that it IS more suitable for a specific task) that is doesn't hurt to improve on the destroid. (through making a destroid more flexible and hopefully plugging a gap to avoid a situation like the three instances above.

We must assume the enemy already knows that the most sensitive areas are going to be heavily fortified by AA, and assume that an enemy will send its elite pilots to deal with that.

Elite pilots =

-Max (able to dodge pretty much anything)

-Nora (uses the VF even better than shin in mac zero, so she has an advantage)

-Hikaru (manages to dodge all the defense using some fancy flying, which kinda makes up for the lack of armor)

The philosophy of "shedding weight to avoid being hit" is one that might appeal to the cocky pilot more than the grunt. But the cocky pilot with demonstratable skill is not the same: they will mod or custom thier vehicle so that even if faced with unsurmountable odds they can:

1. aim thier weapons much quicker (having faster turn rate, this is so that the machine can keep up with them. They have the skill many target at once but the machine lets them down in some way)

2. perform advanced manuevers (gundam had the black tristars team with thier "slistream attack") macross has the VF variable modes to trick people they are vulnerable until the last second.

Oh and for those reading this that don't watch the show, this reply is more directed for those that have seen it and know what I am refferring to. It's more a response to JB0 than one for the whole thread.

3. not having chunky body parts that obstruct thier movement. (for example the destroid have bulky feet and stuff that makes them look a little clumsy. The Qrau looks "refined". Armor flows smoothly, and with a big ass backpack it looks as if it could boost very quickly from one place to another) Sometimes having too much armor can affect those fine motions you need to be able to perform certain things. (eg being able to draw a gun quicker, spin to face another direction, lock an opponent into a grapple hold etc Remember that the valks still beat the destroid in terms of being taller and more athletic in appearance, while the destroids are like "the dwarf" with lots of follow through in thier moves because of the mass, but slow. When faced with multiple target a valk might be able to spin quickly to face an opponenant and eliminate some of that lag.)

Those are all small things that an elite pilot might "complain about" that other pilots might not care for. When amuro ray complains that the machine is "too slow to keep up with his movements", it means he has to wait before he can fire a shot for example. That delay is not a problem for the normal ones who may want more stability, since they machine is already fast "for them". Now in my previous posts in response to someone saying: "why use powered suits when we have valks?" I am saying that perhaps the powered suit has advantages the way a dedicated destroid might have advantages in certain things. (that is the aliens can control a machine they are used to, it may be better in space combat than atmosphere for manuevering etc)

So your main force will engage the defenses, enabling your faster guys to sneak in before the main force engages the defenses?

And why do you think destroid pilots are stupid enough to ignore someone running straight at them?

Well it is more a case of the aliens having more numbers. There may be no other option but to rush through it. So they create the diversion, send as many forward to advance as quickly as they can, and this leads to a few managing to breach those defenses. In no way is this insulting to the destroid guys, just that the speed of the of attack itself may take them by surprise. (which is why I was commenting about the Qrau being in some ways better and faster than a valk in space where there is lots of open space to move, and thrust in 3d dimensions as opposed to inside a confined area where you can't dodge so easily)

I was just saying that aliens may have the advantage if they were to fight full force. It might be crucual for those aliens to take desperate measures to ensure the main gun doesn't fire another shot at them and wipe out thier ships. Meanwhile to those aliens out there on the battleground: "if we don't have a ship to return to what's the point of taking our time?" So speed is important. They have to get in, hopefully control the place when they get inside, and then take the ship as thier own. If the gun fires, or thier ship destroyed, the pilot can't fold out. So they are pretty much stranded.

So to me it makes more sense they would take a heavy offensive aproach ignoring any reasons for holding back within the story. (and just going by sheer number)

Get in your car. Turn it on. Don't touch the controls. What happens?
Machines aren't like people. They don't just move for no reason. They can be incredibly precise at incredibly long ranges.

As for the movie... You're saying that because DYRL didn't show a destroid with a zoom function that all weapons are restricted by the limitations of human sight?

The first point about machine not moving like people: that is true. But everyone has preffered controls for doing the same thing. Some like very sensitive control, others like stable controls, some like auto transmission, others like manual. There may be some freedom for people who like manual. Like when you target an object, instead of just locking onto its centre, you might prefer to guide the shot to the head even though there is a higher chance you miss. I'm sure max needed to put his own skill into aiming when trying to shoot the zentradi regult in the crotch area in SDF:Macross in order not to kill the pilots, that a computer guided system would have ignored.

For unguided weapons you might like the precision that comes with your own hands in shooting stuff is all. Like if I know a Qrau likes to jump suddenly, instead of aiming for the machine, I might want to read the pilot's intentions, aim directly above, and hope the pilot meets the fire. So even though I take that gamble, (not knowing 100% if they will do try to jump) the choice to do that might be based on experience against pilots trained to fight in a certain way and move around in a certain method rather than me being very accurate shot or having great reflexes. It might have just been a case of me anticipating the move rather than me having lightning speed. This is why I was saying that for a fast moving target, where you don't have the luxury of waiting to lock on to anything before firing, you might like to use your instincts instead.

About the movie: no, of course they have zoom. It is more because in the movie fighter mode is used to launch the missiles, both sides have missiles, but the zentradi are taking an offensive stance by rushing forward. So it kinda forces the pilots to respond defensively to make sure they don't penetrate the line. So what do they do? Transform into battroid mode, (possibly exploit the use of articulated limbs to shoot stuff rather than have a fixed forward firing gun) and confront the enemy at close to medium distance. If the enemy has missiles swarming at you, and superior numbers, you got to have a wider firing arc the closer they get. And in space there is no cover. If there is no cover, you can't just rely on free shots from great distance because there is stuff happening very close to you as well. while you are zooming in at stuff from a distance you got people at your sides, below, above and around you to. It is not as if the enemy with superior numbers will stand still for your to shoot at them easily is all I'm saying. You got to think in 3d dimensions and how there is the freedom to move at very quick speeds. (see the Qrau in the tv series)

Dedicated gunner ring a bell?
Also, battle machines are not held to the same restrictions as first-person shooters. They can have seperate targeting screens.

Video game = Silent Scope arcade machine.

Actually there is a gundam arcade game with a wrap around monitor. And if there is a dedicated gunner it wouldn't really be a powered suit would it.. My reason for highlighting an advantage of the powered suit is that the person using it feels as if it is like an extentsion to thier own body rather than a vehicle to be driven. Like how you can have those foot pedals and the robot walks forward, vs how the knight sabers choose to wear the armor on thier body and it just powers thier own movements. So instead of locking on to minmay to pick her up, the alien might just prefer to use manual controls by guiding the arm the old fashioned way. (like those skill tester machines where you got to guide a crane to pick up a prize and hope it drops in the tube for you to collect the prize)

Now that I think about it, yeah the Qrau is more like a giant sized mecha of small size (for a giant) rather than a suit. I think the claws might be controlled by the individual fingers of the pilot though. So picking up a dropped gun or making a fist might be determined by what the operator's own hand is doing.

Ummmm... what exactly is the REST of the platoon doing while this one guy is being gang-raped by a half-dozen enemies?

Of course he has support, but the aliens have massive ships too. They can do more than one thing at a time too. I'm just saying that if an elite pilot is in a Qrau and speeds in to close the distance and zigzags like mad, it won't always be you shooting from a massive long range distance because it needs to do some damage to something important within a certain time. If one guy is moving at max speed and wants to shoot it, he has to at least chase the thing to get a steady shot and a good angle. That means you got to move at about thier speed or greater. I'll assume there is a maximum zoom on the mecha like there would be on binoculars. Just because you can see these tiny blurry dots in the distance and have unlimited range, is no garuantee you kill something if you think the gunsight was aimed right on the dot. Any tiny motion could put you off by a lot. A less skilled person might need to get closer to really hope to hit anything. Plus these are moving targets. So I reason there might be a ideal range to start to shoot. (assuming weapons don't overheat from constant shooting or other factors) It might be easy for someone with a steady hand and sharp eye to attempt to hit these tiny ants which you can barely make out on the blown up screen, but having some kind of control over what you hit is important too.

Closing in might give them better chance of controlling what it is you hit and increasing the chance your slight nerves don't put your aim off by a lot. (since I gather it takes a lot longer to hit a moving target from a long distance than close - maybe the priority for aliens is to just kill as many targets within a certain time rather than picking at them slowly and hoping something hits which would take ages because of the low chance of hitting stuff from extreme distance?)

If there is no upper limit of maximum zoom, ok then I can agree. A Qrau will just fire all the arm lasers from the greatest distance. But because I think the zoom might have a limit and the nerves of the pilot might be too sensitive to control the gunsight very well, personally I think this would be frustrating. I doubt it would do any meaningful damage or even hit what they intended to aim for if, given they were at the maximum zoom they could barely make out what was going on. Also realise that in space you got more space to "cover with fire". (front, back, sides, above, and below) You can't afford to only rely on looking in one direction and risk being shot from anything from those directions so it pays to keep moving anyway.(as opposed to focusing only on what is ahead)

You're right, that's a silly claim.
If it was Max in a locked battroid VS Kakizaki in a Spartan, the smart money would be on Max.

But it DOES mean that the Spartan is BETTER at the job.

Max in a locked battroid VS Max in a Spartan will result in the Spartan winning.

The VF has to make compromises because it fills multiple roles. The Spartan doesn't.

Every feature of the Spartan is a feature that is optimum for it's designed task. If a trade-off has to be made on a VF(and boy, do they have to be...), fighter mode gets the benefits.

I never said ANYTHING about a multi-purpose device having no advantages. In fact, I EXPLICTLY acknowledge the advantage of rapid deployment present in the variable Monster and the general versatility of the VF series.

I just think that, given it's poor armor and weaponry, the VF makes a lousy replacement for a Spartan, which is the only destroid it even comes close to matching the capabilities of.

It can't even PRETEND to replace a Tomahawk, Defender, or Monster, even with add-on modules.

But I do think speed is crucual factor enough that it can more than counter balance superior firepower, range and armor. Just because you got more powerful guns, can take more damage, and shoot far doesn't mean the machine moves efficiently enough to make good use of it. The added weight might mean your steps are slow, the fat feet might effect how you move about, taking ages just to get going and face the multiple targets. Not being able to hover across the surface might mean you can't strafe and shoot at the same time with any reasonable amount of stability enough to shoot things while moving. No ability to do a boosted jump or do a fancy commando roll on the ground in style.

I know I know.. they are good for the task they were designed for so I will lay off the argument from now on. Doesn't stop them from being attacked easily from faster mecha in the show though. Or that limiting themselves to a single role means they take ages to get to a place. It's like we have armored soldiers in medieval days whose movement is hampered by the heavy armor, and it was tiring and inefficent to actually walk around. But we also had horses for them to mount to get from place to place. A valk is more like the latter. Not as many restrictions on what zones it can protect so I give it credit for mobility. Granted a valk might have lighter armor, but it moves more gracefully as a robot, can cover itself easily in a built up area (destroid seem to have very little articulation - I don't they can even crouch down) and has other advantages that might be very useful where having to chase your target is crucual to get a clear hit. Nothing stopping a giant with a RPG outrunning a slow heavily armed robot and blowing them up. But a Qrau in the tv series, is practically never seen standing still. In fact it is always either dashing from one side to another, somersaulting and spinning, and flooding the area with micromissiles so that nothing it locked on to can escape. It's the ferrari of mecha imo. A robot that can run fast is still slower than one that hovers with a backpack or can send enough force in a single punch to penetrate armor.

Imagine if that qrau was armed with a hand carried rpg like the ones you see in gundam? Combining the speed with power?

And you ignore my continuation of the analogy, that the clockradio never replaced dedicated radios because it sucks as a radio.
The clockradio is a clock first and a radio second. The VF is a jet first and a robot second. Can you see where I'm going with this?

Hint: If radio = robot and clock = jet, clockradio = good clock and bad radio, and clockradio = valkyrie, then Valkyrie = good jet and bad _____.

Fair enough. But originally when I used the analogy I meant to refer to three things:

1. clock = dedicated destroid

2. clock radio = variable destroid

3. good quality hi-fi system = valk (more expensive, more sopisticated, multiple functions etc)

the clock is dedicated to telling the time. The clock radio doesn't suffer in telling the time, but adds some of the functionality of the third (it can play music) even though not in the greatest quality.

While the hi-fi is the best for playing music on the same way a valk has better handling than variable destroid.

The idea is that just because a destroid is dedicated to something, doesn't mean it can't be improved upon when adding something to it. The clock radio is still better than a clock because it combines two functions: telling the time and waking you up early, all in one thing. The octos is one example. Swims around in the water for surprise attack, but has some limited functionality on land. It's land features doesn't need to be the best in the world for it to "matter". Having it makes enough of a difference to the usefulness of the pilot inside than not having it.

You assume that's a weakness, because you assume that if a feature is on the VF-1 it is inherently useful, and that if a VF-1 lacks a feature it is because it is not needed.
Not everything needs to fly. Especially when it comes at the cost of primary design goals.

Ok but increasing speed and stuff is something which we all want, it is something that is worth paying money for. It's why we have computers that can process more information, cars that can go faster and run more efficiently, we award medals and trophies to teams that perform the best. If you can save time (like the variable glaug, monster, and fighter) eliminate waste, use less energy to get from point A to B, then whether it needs it or not isn't the issue. It's whether we want it or if it is worth having. We don't need the light bulb. It was invented. But yet we use lightbulbs everyday. We don't need tv. But we use them everyday and benefit from them. We don't need microwave ovens etc..

The POINT of anti-air weaponry is to kill an aircraft BEFORE it starts unloading weaponry.
If an anti-air weapon is firing at close range, it's ALREADY failed.

...

Or it's attempting to shoot down a missile, like the (real-world, non-destroid) Phalanx. Note that the real-world Phalanx is intended to be the FINAL line of defense, not the ONLY line of defense.

Doesn't mean the current generation of tech works perfectly where th AA is sufficient to catch them all the time. Skill of the pilot is a factor too. One of the trends in mecha shows is that a particular hot shot pilot wants to take risks or show off and do stuff that allows them to take on his opponents in style. You do that by taking risks and gaining rewards for those risks. So similarly, I came up with the idea that the bigger more elite zentradi might like powered suits because maybe it is how they wish to fight rather than enjoy squeezing thier body in a tiny human cockpit forced to use inferiour human-made technology. Some people like loud bikes like Harley Davidsons. There is no practical reason, it might be thier way of standing out or the way the engine feels. Although the Variable QRau (yf21) wasn't perfect, that shouldn't stop the aliens from seeing the advantages in using the system. Remember these are people who have people's brains hooked to a ship. Things can sometimes break, not work as efficiently as the product advertises and malfunction too. Like the gundpod jamming in macross plus and leaving the pilot defenceless for a second.

Actually, the variable Monster is every bit as slow, clumsy, and specialized as the regular one.
You also greatly overestimate the need for mobility in an artillery piece.

The Monster, variable or not, has a few major design goals.

To run through the list...

Major goal 1 is that it needs to fire big bullets.

Toward that end, it was equipped with quad 40cm cannons.

Major goal 2 is that it be stable enough to shoot accurately.

While firing 40cm shells. That's a lot of recoil it has to steady.

Major goal 3 is that it needs to withstand the recoil of said cannons.

It has to be bulked-up enough that the guns don't rip loose from their mounts. Newton's third law says every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Every time it fires a shell, it tries to fire the back end of the mech in the other direction. A 40cm shell for the Iowa-class masses around a thousand kilograms. If we assume projectiles for the Monster are of similar mass, that means that the Monster tries to blast a thousand kg of metal off the back end at the same speed as the shell leaving the barrel.

For comparison, the modern-day Abrams tank has a 120 MILLIMETER(12centimeter) cannon. The tank weighs almost 70 tons. It has a very low center of gravity. And it JUMPS BACKWARDS with every shot of the cannon.

The Monster has cannons along the lines of an Iowa-class BATTLESHIP in terms of projectile size(the Monster's cannons are twice as long, and range is over 3x greater, indicating a larger projectile velocity, and thus greater recoil).

And speaking of recoil... the Konig Monster uses it's railguns(an upgrade from the original Monster's conventional cannons) to expel plasma in shuttle mode as a form of propulsion. So apparently even at 102 thousand kilograms, an overglorified fart can send it flying through the air if not properly controlled.

Major goal 4 is that it needs to be able to survive the blast from the nuclear warheads it's dropping on people. Not all shells are dropped 160 km away, and some will be dangerously close. This necessitated massive armor, further increasing mass.

Major goal 5 is that it needs to be mobile, in the sense that it can walk from point A to point B.

Points 1-4 made this a very difficult goal to attain, and the final product has very limited mobility, with even walking on irregular surfaces being "not recommended."

Of course, the fact that the Monster made it into production with that fault shows that this was NOT considered a primary goal. Artillery doesn't need to be fast or nimble. It just needs to shoot stuff with big guns.

Agility, speed, and defense never really even entered the equation. Nobody cared. They are useless attributes in an artillery piece.

Heavy artillery costs a lot of mass, and mass is not good for speed and agility. No Monster will EVER be fast or nimble, just because it has such big guns.

The Mk2 had missile launchers, and the variable Monster added a small anti-aircraft gun, but both are still essentially incapable of self-defense and REQUIRE escorts.

And while the Konig is indeed lighter than the original Monster, it is still far more massive than any other human mecha, weighing in at 3x the next-highest destroid(the Phalanx, which likely owes much of it's mass to the large missile payload).

I WAS mistaken about speed, though. The Konig can break mach 1.

Fair enough. But it's cool that it can actually hover or float in space right? The big ape commander in Macross was huge. Maybe turning into a robot means it can fight ultra giant powered armor of his mass? Maybe there are class of zentradi soldier bigger than even him? (who is bigger than britai) Who knows? If I were inside one I would feel grateful that advances in technology and the funding for more mobile artillery mecha were being made. This way I can transform in space, shoot a few of those heavy bullets at ranges I normally wasn't allowed to had I been glued to the surface of the SDF1 or whatever ship has me sitting there and do more stuff. The robot mode of the SDF1 was used merely to fire the main cannon but now all the ships like it do that.

Again, you assume. And this time, you ignore evidence to the contrary to do so, not just logic.
The Valk has been SHOWN to be a lousy close-combat vehicle.

It can't even effectively fight a mech-less zentradi.

No matter how skilled he was, or how superior his genetics, Britai was still flesh and blood. For him to best a Valk with nothing but a RUSTY PIPE and RIP IT APART WITH HIS BARE HANDS, and come out of it COMPLETELY UNINJURED showcases how painfully inadequate the Valkyrie is for melee combat.

Well the spartan going against him might have been too slow. Kinda like how the terminator was in terminator 1. It had lots of punch, but note how heavy it was that pretty much each time Kyle Reese and Sara Conner hit it with weapons to knock it down, it took ages to chase them? Or when robocop in the robocop movies had that punch that sent that guy flying into the fridge in the convenience store, but look how slow his feet move? The ed209 had better weapons than robo, yet because of his smaller size, the ED209 had problems dodging a shot from the grenade launcher that a smaller more mobile robot might have dodged. At least robocop could avoid the rocket.

So I say: why not combine speed, small size, with power? There are animals in nature that have a good combination of speed (can run real fast! Faster than humans because they got to chase prey) and power in one? Like tiger or lion or whatever? A valk has lots of power in its speed, so it just means it has to fight differently to the spartan. Just because it is not the dedicated task to smash stuff with big fists, doesn't mean it has to suck at it either. I think if the valk hade the VF11 gunpod's bayonet it could stab it in the cockpit and kill the pilot quicker than the spartan could bat the Valk with the billy club. (lets assume both have used up all thier ammo)

The reason being that a valk can slide on the ground and hover a little and jump to a safe distance using its speed. With later valks, using PPB, it might even be able to do certain special moves like charge into the opponent while blocking using the bullet proof shield.

Although the spartan has the advantage due to size and armor, its survival in many varied environments makes it too easy to beat in other ways by being too specialised rather than good in many things. An example is when Max escapes the zentradi ship in the tv series by turning into gerwalk and charging into enemies at high speed. You can't do those kind of things if you are wieghed down by so much armor. If you are moving fast the last thing you need is armor to weigh you down. Much better to run and avoid getting hit altogether.

I'm out of this.
I wasn't even going to bother, except you explicitly called me out, and basically accused me of stuffing my ears full of soggy Mac&Cheese while shouting "I CAN'T HEAR YOU LALALA!"

I heard you quite clearly. Your logic is just painfully flawed.

I'm just saying: Spartan being designed for close combat doesn't necessarily save you from swarm of QRau. Since the Qrau is faster than a valk and yet is able to pack so many of those missiles. It's a fictional universe so we could both be wrong. There are disadvantages to only being good at one thing is all I'm saying. Some people rely on others to do a good job in thier side (in Mobile Suit Gundam: 8th Mobile Suit Team where they actually make good use of the long-range ability of the artillery mecha for example, but these are hopeless at other stuff) and some like to fight in a mecha that is well rounded in everything. (ie the humanoid shaped robots in all the gundam shows that have upgradeable or exchangable weapon packs or a variety of different hand-carried weapons to suit each specific mission)

Having one dedicated robot works in gundam so why not macross? It's not the real world so we can't perfectly compare it. You never see the guy in the Guntank charge in and fight up close against the main villain do you? Because those are the grunt mecha with last generation technology. I think of the Destroids as being like that. They do have better armor, I agree but not enough to save them against pilots that know thier weaknesses or know what they are doing. Like knowing the turning rate, knowing the speed they can run, how many hits it take to take them down, whether they can react fast enough to cover a great distance etc, and exploiting that weakness each time. Unless the destroid have some kinda beam resistant armor, maybe the zentradi have it easy and can slice through the human mecha with ease after upgrading thier weapons to slice through more layers of armor per shot through studying the humans' mecha? Lord only know how long they've been fighting as a warrior race and how many other cultures they encountered and destroyed before. It's not like they are beyond adapting to primitive human strategies. Suuuure...it's ok for us to adapt and upgrade our valks into super valks to make better space fighters, but the aliens stay the same level, don't learn our weaknesses, how to divert our attention, and have to hold back by not using thier superior numbers to swarm us, all while thier machines have to stay at the same speed and responsivness. (no super qrau upgrade for you milia!) Oh and guess what? We can shoot them from miles away with no damage to ourselves because they can never catch us or ever have a situation where we have to fight them up close (people only fly in space in straight lines, no zigzagging allowed). Right, so convenient.

Edited June 27, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

KingNor · June 27, 2006

5) the Zentraedi were deliberately following the ship - registering it's defold from 10 light years away (in other words, 10 years after the ship arrived.) They came searching for it. Even if all the weapons were removed, the Zentraedi would still have done something to or about the ship - given the standard operating tactics of the Zentraedi, a peaceful resolution wouldn't have entered their minds. (Scortched earth tactics...)

I only disagree because i could swear there was a part where bretai or exedol specificly says to not get involved at all with miclones.

i took that as "lets get the F out of here before they do to us"

maybe they would have destroyed the ship.

actually though, i guess either way they would have been exposed to our culture and the end result would have been rain of death.

i just could swear that exedol wanted to leave the miclones alone, and bretai was going against standing orders by observing the miclones.

perhaps the only thing the miclones coudl have done to save themselves was not rebuild the ship at all.

KingNor · June 27, 2006

god.. you know what, i'm leaving this topic, bai.

Edited June 27, 2006 by KingNor

1/1 LowViz Lurker · June 27, 2006

King nor in response to your original question about the sprint runner:

It depends on the genes and how much they practice and how much each one cheated using performance enhancing drugs.

KingNor · June 27, 2006

King nor in response to your original question about the sprint runner:
It depends on the genes and how much they practice and how much each one cheated using performance enhancing drugs.

411669[/snapback]

please leave me alone now.

JB0 · June 27, 2006

I do find it intresting, politically, that after so much work to unify the world, the SDF was made into a battle ship.
Clearly the ship was abandoned. In space, and apandoned ship could arguably drift for many times the life span of a civilization with out hitting something.

I don't know much about warp/spacefold but it could have easily been in fold for millenia for all the humans know.

I know in real life, there would be at least a push to have it refitted as an exploration, ambasador ship or something.

I mean we finally unify the planet.. so we can build a battle ship? kind of ironic.

even more ironic is in the end, had the weapons systems been removed, the zentradi may well have ignored us if the ships weapons hadn't gone off.

they definately would have thought it odd that we'd had dismantled and rebuilt a gunship as a pleasure boat, but i think they would have simply followed orders to "stay away from miclones at all costs" had we not shown any capacity fight them

411594[/snapback]

The Macross sent a message to humanity. Not in the literal sense(this isn't a Robotech novel), but it's design spoke volumes.

It said "Yes, there ARE other species out there. They are far more advanced than you. They stand 30 feet tall. They can travel faster than light. And BTW, they like to blow the crap out of stuff."

To rebuild the ASS-1 as a purely exploratory vessel would not only have required the removal of an entire third of the ship, it would've ignored everything we knew about aliens. To go into the unknown without defenses is suicidal. Especially when the only thing you DO know about the unknown is that it bites.

I only disagree because i could swear there was a part where bretai or exedol specificly says to not get involved at all with miclones.

Exedol mentions there's a legend to that effect. But it's AFTER the video from the landing party comes back. The war has already begun at that point.

i just could swear that exedol wanted to leave the miclones alone, and bretai was going against standing orders by observing the miclones.

It wasn't really an order. Was an ancient zentradi legend.

And there's a lot of reasons Britai wanted to stick around. We had the amazing ability to repair heavily-damaged ships, and the legendary reaction weaponry.

Either one alone would've been VERY interesting, but both of them in one place?

It was like finding Excaliber next to the Holy Grail.

And for comic relief, we have LowVis' silly paragraph of the day...

3. not having chunky body parts that obstruct thier movement. (for example the destroid have bulky feet and stuff that makes them look a little clumsy. The Qrau looks "refined". Armor flows smoothly, and with a big ass backpack it looks as if it could boost very quickly from one place to another)

The QRau looks cooler, therefore it is better? Are you serious?

The fact that it's rounded and skinny has no relevance whatsoever on actual performance.

The QRau has horrid aerodynamics. Probably better than the Spartan, but Spartans don't care because it matters a lot less to ground units than aerial ones.

QRaus don't really care because they have big engines. And the zentradi usually fight in space anyways.

The big-ass backpack is a missile launcher and fusion reactor, BTW.

AKA a giant sci-fi powder keg.

Sometimes having too much armor can affect those fine motions you need to be able to perform certain things. (eg being able to draw a gun quicker, spin to face another direction, lock an opponent into a hold etc

IF the machine carrying the armor is underpowered.

Do you really believe that the Spartan design team said "Yeah, we know that this thing is intended for melee combat and that agility is the single most important design goal here, but we put more armor on it than the mechanisms can handle anyways"?

That works for the Monster, as durability was more important than mobility.

But the Spartan is NOTHING without mobility. I guarantee that it has enough power to move everything on it rapidly and accurately.

Remember that the valks still beat the destroid in terms of being taller and more athletic in appearance,

And that's what really matters, being a big cool-looking target . :rolleyes:

Being taller isn't a good thing. All it does is compound the Valk's armor deficiency by making it easier to hit.

while the destroids are like "the dwarf" with lots of follow through in thier moves because of the mass, but slow.

Your assertion, unbacked by any sort of evidence.

When faced with multiple target a valk might be able to spin quickly to face an opponenant and eliminate some of that lag.)

Or take a hit in the back before the pilot even realizes he's been jumped, and go down for the count because there's no armor over even the most vital of components?

The thing uses it's exhaust nozzles as FEET, for pete's sake. Every leg motion a grounded battroid makes smashes the delicate thrust-vectoring mechanisms under the world's biggest hammer. It's actually designed to destroy itself FOR the enemy!

Ultimately, however, all arguments that the destroid is inherently inferior must answer one question: Why did they design and produce the GBP-1 to make the Valkyrie into a fixed-mode vehicle with heavy armor if such things serve no useful purpose?

eugimon · June 27, 2006

what the hell? How did this topic get hijacked for so long? I remember this topic was actually interesting to read for a while and now... zerg rushes? valks fighting hand to hand? (NOOO not the valks should have swords topic again) an d now steroids?

So uhm.. again, I wanna see a mac show about a black op team on maybe a small gunboat and a smalled mixed wing of valks doing the dirty jobs, keeping colonies in line and fighting the odd alien destabilizing force once in a while. No pseudo magic/shamanism, no singing energy jedi types.. just good old fashion small team military stuff with some political insight in the the macross universe.

1/1 LowViz Lurker · June 27, 2006

Ultimately, however, all arguments that the destroid is inherently inferior must answer one question: Why did they design and produce the GBP-1 to make the Valkyrie into a fixed-mode vehicle with heavy armor if such things serve no useful purpose?

Nobody said inferiour. Just that without the function of variable modes it was less advantageous in some situations because it stands still to fire. (no hovering and strafing) Specialising only in one thing.

This GBP highlights the fact that a weapon which can be upgradeable like the valk means it is not just used for one thing. It can be a mecha with missiles, a super valk with canon, or just plain atmospheric fighter. You can eject any of this when necessary to "shed dead weight" which could save your life.

Like the upgradable weapon pack in gundam seed which can fullfill all roles.

Unlike 8th MS Team which relied on every person on the team in order to survive. If one died you lost one ability. Instead, why not have a machine that is good all round as a main weapon? You can still have those other robots, but because they are specialised they should only be made in smaller qauntity where needed. (and BTW valks can be modded for civilian use too like the oe with the harpoon gun, so I don't see anything wrong with the base vf1 needing "upgrades" to enhance itself)

Edited June 27, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

KingNor · June 27, 2006

valkyries are so cool when they have huge armor they're kick ass and can blow everything up, stupid destroids can't turn in a circle fast enough there for just like in gundamn they will get blown up by faster sleeker robots just like in bubblegum crisis. valkyries are so fast no one can even turn fast enough to shooot them so they are the coolest. i mean best. the destroids can't even turn fast enough to shoot a valkyrie who can shoot its gun and is so fast it can return to base reload refuel and come back and keep killing EVERYONE with impunity because its SO FAST NO ONE CAN KILL IT.

just like in indiana jones the valkyrie is the best for every task because.. if it needs to go faster it can just transform in to a jet, and then NO ONE can shoot it, how much faster is a jet than a robot? a lot. even the qrau just like in evangelion its sleek and super fast, the spartan can't even fly so how could it ever shoot down a qrau? the valk or qrau would just fly up next to it and shoot it from the sides or the top or the back or underneath or infront and the spartan will just be slowly turning around.

just like in starwars.

eugimon · June 27, 2006

valkyries are so cool when they have huge armor they're kick ass and can blow everything up, stupid destroids can't turn in a circle fast enough there for just like in gundamn they will get blown up by faster sleeker robots just like in bubblegum crisis. valkyries are so fast no one can even turn fast enough to shooot them so they are the coolest. i mean best. the destroids can't even turn fast enough to shoot a valkyrie who can shoot its gun and is so fast it can return to base reload refuel and come back and keep killing EVERYONE with impunity because its SO FAST NO ONE CAN KILL IT.
just like in indiana jones the valkyrie is the best for every task because.. if it needs to go faster it can just transform in to a jet, and then NO ONE can shoot it, how much faster is a jet than a robot? a lot. even the qrau just like in evangelion its sleek and super fast, the spartan can't even fly so how could it ever shoot down a qrau? the valk or qrau would just fly up next to it and shoot it from the sides or the top or the back or underneath or infront and the spartan will just be slowly turning around.

just like in starwars.

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MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! *cough* BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

Zinjo · June 27, 2006

It wasn't really an order. Was an ancient zentradi legend.
And there's a lot of reasons Britai wanted to stick around. We had the amazing ability to repair heavily-damaged ships, and the legendary reaction weaponry.

Either one alone would've been VERY interesting, but both of them in one place?

It was like finding Excaliber next to the Holy Grail.

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The main purpose Bretaii stayed (strongly implied of course) was for the "Long lost Reaction Weapons".

I don't recall as much of a reaction given to the microns ability to repair their ship.

Zinjo · June 27, 2006

EDIT: forgot to add this:
6) the UN Wars were fought to keep control of the information and technology resulting from the crashed alien ship. The most obvious reason would be the ensuing panic and chaos resulting from any public release of information that there are giant aliens with stupifyingly powerful weapons folding around the galaxy. For that reason alone (preventing the end of life as we know it, and maintaining stability) is more than enough justification to keep it secret. (Something that the Anti-UN also complied to, it should be noted.)

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Well since the actual nature of the UN Wars is a bit vague, I'd put forth it was likely the specific goal of the AUN forces and whatever nations and/or territories that backed them, to control the information and technology.

This force consisting of many former UN and SPACY personnel would have that secret information and would pass it along to their sponsors.

Other than that minor point, I agree with sketchley's statement.

JB0 · June 27, 2006

Nobody said inferiour. Just that without the function of variable modes it was less advantageous in some situations because it stands still to fire. (no hovering and strafing) Specialising only in one thing.

You've said in ALL situations, a Valkyrie is better.

The real-world utility of strafing is far diffrent than the video-game utility of strafing. In that it isn't all that useful.

And not only can you strafe without hovering, you don't need to hover to move. In fact, hovering while firing makes you less accurate.

This GBP highlights the fact that a weapon which can be upgradeable like the valk means it is not just used for one thing. It can be a mecha with missiles, a super valk with canon, or just plain atmospheric fighter. You can eject any of this when necessary to "shed dead weight" which could save your life.

The GBP also highlights the fact that there are many situations heavy armor is more valuable than speed and variability.

Even with a GBP, a Valk is still lightly armored in the thighs and head. The head especially is a big easy to hit target that seriously cripples the mech. The Spartan's sensors are recessed and their locations aren't obvious. It's head is much smaller and only serves as a turret for a pair of anti-aircraft lasers.

Have you ever heard the phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none?" It could have been written about a Valk.

Unlike 8th MS Team which relied on every person on the team in order to survive. If one died you lost one ability.

That's called realism.

Specialized equipment does the job far better than slapping expansions onto another piece of equipment that was never intended to do the job. Hence, real militaries use specialized equipment.

Instead, why not have a machine that is good all round as a main weapon?

That's not the Valkyrie.

There's a good reason that real-world forces are made up of lots of specialized vehicles instead of tons of helicopters and a few tanks and jets.

It wasn't really an order. Was an ancient zentradi legend.
And there's a lot of reasons Britai wanted to stick around. We had the amazing ability to repair heavily-damaged ships, and the legendary reaction weaponry.

Either one alone would've been VERY interesting, but both of them in one place?

It was like finding Excaliber next to the Holy Grail.

411676[/snapback]

The main purpose Bretaii stayed (strongly implied of course) was for the "Long lost Reaction Weapons".

I don't recall as much of a reaction given to the microns ability to repair their ship.

411814[/snapback]

I remember he was shocked that they managed to rebuild it. I may just be overemphasizing it in my head.

azrael · June 28, 2006

I remember he was shocked that they managed to rebuild it. I may just be overemphasizing it in my head.

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Yeh he was...but that was just a passing thought. To him, it was still a SA gunboat, which carried 20,000 + 58,000 pieces of live and useful cargo.

Edited June 28, 2006 by azrael

JB0 · June 28, 2006

I remember he was shocked that they managed to rebuild it. I may just be overemphasizing it in my head.

411831[/snapback]

Yeh he was...but that was just a passing thought. To him, it was still a SA gunboat, which carried 20,000 + 58,000 pieces of live and useful cargo.

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Ya know, now that I think of it, it's no diffrent than me being surprised if a bunch of iron age people had rebuilt a corvette that someone rammed into their barn.

KingNor · June 28, 2006

ok, the fact that it's a obvious warship granted.. don't you still find it at least odd that a newly unified world woudln't atleast make it an armed exploration vessle?

all of a sudden we have a ship that will be able to trot around the solar system with ease, scientific exploration had to be at least somewhere on peoples minds.

In the end if you really think about it, any civilization that can "lose" a ship of the SDF's caliber isn't going to be detered by us having it. It is kind of nieve to think that we could rebuild a single war ship and be even entertaininly threatening.

I guess what i'm really asking is if it could be anything besides a war ship, what would you make it into?

sketchley · June 28, 2006

If I remember correctly, the SDF-1 was supposed to be the flagship of the Earth's fleet (defensive, or otherwise.) During the 10 years that it took to rebuild (and reengineer the technology contained therein,) a plethora of other equipment were developed and built - the 2 most visible are the VF-1 and the Destroids.

During those 10 years, we do know from the timeline that:

a) a reaction weapon is test detonated on the surface of the moon

b) a base is built on the moon, and construction of the grand cannon on the moon begins

c) a base on Mars is built, and soon after, abandoned

d) space colonies (clusters) are built in Earth's orbit (the L3, or L4/5 points?)

e) a small fleet of militarized ships are built (ARMD, and Space Destroyers. Also, the anti-grav Prometheus and Daedalus ships could be included here - but IMHO, they are more likely used only as heavy lift vehicles.)

Therefore, there has been a lot of stuff that has gone on in the background of the main Macross storyline that we haven't seen, but has happened. The most applicable to this current discussion (based on the timeline facts above) is two seperate classes of ship: one for transport of supplies and colonists to both the moon and Mars (perhaps beyond, as well,) and exploration/science ships - these could be manned or unmanned.

So... IMHO, the SDF-1 was rebuilt to a) see if it could be done, b) reengineer a lot of, or most of the surviving technology found aboard, and c) make the flagship of the Earth fleet. Other ships were fulfilling the rolls of transport, science, exploration, destroyer, and aircraft carrier roles.

JB0 · June 28, 2006

ok, the fact that it's a obvious warship granted.. don't you still find it at least odd that a newly unified world woudln't atleast make it an armed exploration vessle?

I thought that was the intent. To send it out into the galaxy and see what we could see.

The fact that Global was explicitly ordered not to fire first if they encountered an alien intelligence means that they were going to be out there in the stars and WEREN'T going to be picking fights. Essentially, Star Trek anime-style. Not that it worked that way(even in Star Trek).

But to go out there unarmed would just be begging for trouble, and removing the main cannon would be more effort than it was really worth unless you wanted poeple to think you were easy pickings.

All we knew at that point was that there were aliens out there, and they were hostile. We didn't know where they were, so we couldn't just avoid them.

In the end if you really think about it, any civilization that can "lose" a ship of the SDF's caliber isn't going to be detered by us having it. It is kind of nieve to think that we could rebuild a single war ship and be even entertaininly threatening.

And yet, we actually DID threaten them, and even beat them(admittedly through dumb luck, but still...).

Seriously, they were probably hoping that the ASS was one of their best ships, not indicative of the whole.

And the ARMD-01 and -02 DID make a good showing against the initial zentradi assault(in that they smashed anything at all before being riddled with laser fire). Nukes don't really care how advanced you are, as long as you don't have good anti-missile systems(which the zentradi apparently lacked).

We just had an overwhelming hardware deficit.

2 ARMDs, some number of Oberths(there were 125 in service for the final battle), and 1 untested alien gunboat.

I guess what i'm really asking is if it could be anything besides a war ship, what would you make it into?

Exactly what it was... an exploration vessel with a really big gun.

GutsAndCasca · June 28, 2006

I always wondered about Breetai surviving in space in that particular episode. Can other Zentraedi do the same thing simply because they're so big, or is that "just a commander" thing?

411504[/snapback]

Humans can do it too if they prepare properly. The common belief that your blood pressure will make you explode and die is a myth. You won't last very long, and you'll probably spend a good deal of time recovering, but you CAN survive in a vacuum briefly.

According to the liner notes, that sequence was inserted partially to remind people that it wasn't impossible. ( http://www.animeigo.com/Liner/MACROSS.t and scroll down to episode 10 entry). It actually goes into a bit of detail on what actually happens, too. Says you only have a few seconds before blackout, but it's unclear how long Britai was actually exposed.

In the end, the dialouge undermined the point by emphasizing how freakish it was that Britai survived being spaced.

411520[/snapback]

Man, if more people knew this information they'd sure be shocked. That's nuts.

1/1 LowViz Lurker · June 30, 2006

Man, if more people knew this information they'd sure be shocked. That's nuts.

I think those liner notes are included with some dvd boxset in a little booklet though. The one I have is region 4 so it might vary? Very handy to have.

You've said in ALL situations, a Valkyrie is better.

Mainly because it means the valk or qrau can get to a spot quickly shoot and be done with it. Not that "we no longer need destroids at all." (as in replace them, after all a VB6 is a destroid right?) But more like: "if you had to choose the apropriate mecha and had limited funding and space and time what would you choose to survive?" (and I chose valks since in the series they look very effective against all kinds of mecha, not just against aircraft and spacecraft)

Without the ability to fly around the destroid has got to walk around objects on the surface and take the long route. This wouldn't apply to a variable destroid. So that's why I mentioned the valk being useful due to having multiple abilities while still not intending to replace the other machines' jobs. (you can still have destroids but the current ones seem limited)

The GBP also highlights the fact that there are many situations heavy armor is more valuable than speed and variability.
Even with a GBP, a Valk is still lightly armored in the thighs and head. The head especially is a big easy to hit target that seriously cripples the mech. The Spartan's sensors are recessed and their locations aren't obvious. It's head is much smaller and only serves as a turret for a pair of anti-aircraft lasers.

Have you ever heard the phrase "Jack of all trades, master of none?" It could have been written about a Valk.

True about the advantages of destroid vs GBP valk, and I agree here.

But as I've said, a valk is still able to

fly in an atmosphere, fly in space, run around on the ground to fight on the ground, hover in gerwalk instead of running, and maybe even carry different weapons instead of being forced to use the weapons that are built inside the machine. More flexible imo. Accuracy is reduced if you try to shoot while running so it wouldn't be done, while shooting while hovering (not as bumpy) could be done in gerwalk. Even if it lessens accuracy it is still useful for up close given how fast the gunpod fires. Think of a desert planet with massive sand dunes. Hovering is going to save you so much time. Movement much easier. No threat of being bogged down or going over hilly or uneven surfaces.

By having those options available, the same machine can do multiple things. Granted it won't be the best at each one, and it won't replace the role of the destroids, but the destroids could have thier equivalant of variable mode that the dedicated fighter has with the variable fighter. They have a variable hover tank in Super dimensional Cavalry Southern Cross for example. The variable monster would be like that, where the gerwalk mode might be able to increase the range or view of the field, or cover greater distance in shorter time. (and no, it wouldn't "go on its own" it would have the escorts and stuff too)

That's called realism.
Specialized equipment does the job far better than slapping expansions onto another piece of equipment that was never intended to do the job. Hence, real militaries use specialized equipment.

I agree, however there are some vehicles that I think could "survive" (that is if things get too hairy, like in a situation where the power of the enemies' weapon outclasses the power of your armor, and having the armor made little difference if it was there or not - for example look at the sheer size of the Qrau, its got giant lasers) thier speed allows them an advantage. It just might be a case in macross where armor wasn't suited against the enemy weapons, because as we were up against aliens, we didn't know what to expect (no special anti-beam armor) so we are still learning from each battle how effective or how necessary having the armor there is or not, (or its type - remember that destroid are used in human vs human war) based on things like how heavy it is, or how powerful the machines are to be able to carry the armor and still move at decent enough speed. You can have super duper tough armor and slow destroid, medium armor and medium speed destroid, or a lighter one. So the VB 6 would be the heavy one, but it might be lousy against mecha that are faster than it that were specifically designed to kill the monster equiped with some anti-armor weapon. And the other destroids (the lighter ones) have to use thier speed to stop these smaller ones and be used to escort the bigger and slower guy. I'm not disagreeing with "the role of the destroid being useful", just that a fighter can move quicker while destroids take time to get there to defend, so destroid can be improved like how fighters improved.

In robot mode you still get armor, just not as thick. I think Britai could beat the valk up more because he was extremely tough and had superior fighting ability to hikaru rather than valks being really, really weak. (15 year old kid vs a fully grown man FFS)

If you had armor that was thick and weighty, you might want to consider "what if?" I lightened the load just a little and see if it makes a big difference to what I can do. Maybe the better destroid pilot wants a lighter vehicle (because they never put themselves in a situation where they can be hit) so he customs the machine to his way of fighting? Possibly preffering a quicker turning destroid so he can take on more targets at once vs a machine which has stronger defense but costs you in reaction time? This is my reasoning for why I think an giant alien might like "thier mecha" more than "human" ones. Powered suit giving extremely strong melee, (punching a hole in the hull of a ship? Yes please! A giant Qrau to fit an ape commander would do wonders) while having good weapons like micromissiles, and... not moving slow. (no chunky feet with massive footprint to weigh you down, ability to move quick thanks to the booster etc)

With regard to expansions: for the price you pay, they may be worth it and save a life. It's like with people who buy expansion cards for the pc based on what they WANT rather than wasting money on stuff they don't want. (ie this mean you won't be stuck with a crap videocard forever and have to buy a new pc just to do graphic intensive work, just upgrade the card and keep the existing thing which works fine)

.....but I don't think of the GBP as an expansion at all. In the sense of: "the existing thing sucked and was flawed from the start". More like an "optional extra" that you only use for special missions that require it. When you don't require it (say you have used up all the missiles and need to fly) you eject it, and continue fighting without it. If the GBP was an expansion you would see all valks using it as standard like the FAST Pack in space as opposed to only used for special missions. But the penalty you pay for not being able to transform.....(and being too specialised) limits how you can fight, where you can get to in time, and what types of things you can kill. (destroid need to be transported since they can't fly) Armor costs mobility. So I think the FAST Pack (more than the GBP) is more the right balance of speed and power (my analogy of animals in nature that are both fast + strong) that is needed if we are talking about space. Being able to turn quick, having more power as reprsented in the speed as opposed to armor, may be more useful. (sportscar vs a truck - both powerful machines but the power is represented in different things)

There's a good reason that real-world forces are made up of lots of specialized vehicles instead of tons of helicopters and a few tanks and jets.

I'm not disagreeing with that. Just saying that a destroid has limits to what it can do that imo would need to be addressed in the context of a ship floating around in space with aliens that have faster machines dedicated to fighting in that environment in space where 3d movement is important. Tanks can't fly so thier limit is only targets that are viewable to them from where they are standing. So a tank shouldn't try to even shoot at stuff floating in the water beyond its range. But if it could, wouldn't that make it "more useful"?

The variable monster wouldn't have that limit because it can actually float around and stuff meaning it can be useful for situations like that where you want to be able to get at things that you normally couldn't if you had to walk.

But the destroids are more there by accident imo. Like they were never designed to actually fight in space from the beginning and were just used in place of gun turrets. If you knock a destroid off the SDF1 the poor pilot is going to float away and this could be dangerous if he gets lost in space while the sdf1 is moving away at high speed. This wouldn't apply to the vb 6 though. If it were up to me I would save space and replace some of the destroids with space fighters like what you see in the ARMD carriers because they can fly at least. The army can have the destroid while the space forces have the valks or dedicated space fighters. I mean, you barely ever see destroids in macross 7. They seem to get on fine.

Meanwhile advances in destroid design can give us more useful destroid that can transform and fly if they get knocked off the sdf1 or need to get into better position to fire thier guns. (not chained down with claws like the early monster in mac zero) It doesn't mean we don't need destroids, but I still rank valk "higher" for its abilities to do other stuff while not sucking at its main role. And having the bonus of being able to use modes to its advantage by bringing new fighting techniques due to that flexibility. (being more robust in robot mode, while fast and agile in fighter) A destroid that could fight on land, fly over the sea, space, underwater etc has got to count for something. (even if it is not the best in each mode, so long as it doesn't suck in its primary role and we don't see any performance drop in the primary role, it shouldn't be a problem)

The saved space you get from variable machines might mean you could fit more stuff too. (no need to reserve a seperate space for dedicated fighters and seperate space for humanoid anti-giant robots, when you just have space for valks or variable destroids. That saving of space means you could fit more of your destroids and bring the army along with you for when you need some grunt mecha. (for times when valks are too light) As result you are now more deadly for having covered more bases than if you only had a dedicated robot and a seperate dedicated fighter vs just variable fighters etc.

Edited June 30, 2006 by 1/1 LowViz Lurker

Mephistopheles · June 30, 2006

In space the only thing that would "slow" something down is inertia. They could put a booster pack on any of the destroids and had them fly just as fast as the Valkyries and maneuver as well as any of the Valkyries. The Valkyries only hold the speed advantage in an atmosphere.

However we are talking about a fictional war using fictional weapons designed by somebody who is not a military tactics expert so it has many, many flaws in the show. However if you want to look at it realistically then the Valkyrie pilots would be blacking out in half of the maneuvers they pull. Additionally, provided your enemy can at least aim, or think logically when aiming, no pilot would be able to dodge the sheer volume of missiles and gun fire coming at them as you see in Macross. When firing at a moving enemy it is best to either aim where you think they will go then fire in the spot continuously or fire well ahead of them and bring the fire towards them so they collide with it. You can also choose a spread pattern in which you quickly fire at the places you think they will go if you believe they will change direction. I use these firing techniques in everything from games, to paintball, to military OPFOR simulations** to hunting with fairly high success rate. However it is much easier on everyone working on the series to use the classic noobs versus elite scenarios, you don't have to put a lot of thought or research into it and it is generally easier to animate. Gundam uses the same thing. Look at the "cannon fodder" troops; all they do is stand in one spot and shoot around or behind their enemy. Based on that, it is apparant that nobody actually learns how to use their equippment aside from the trigger. Maybe they should concentrate on training a bit more.

Additionally the Destroids could have been equipped with an anti-missile system like the TROPHY* system being developed right now. Although the destroids were designed in the 1980's so the TROPHY system wasn't publicly announced.

The battles would also have taken place at longer ranges. Right now fighters can track over ten targets, from ten different directions, at ranges over fifteen miles and engage them. Macross attack range seems to be about a few hundred meters aside from the large cannons on the ships.

Other weapons could have been utilized. Rather then send out a bunch of space fighters they could have just launched masses of scrap metal with explosives in them and blew them up when enemy pods were around. The sharpnel from the explosion would be moving well over the speed of sound (in air) and kept going until it collided with something. Proximity based missiles work extremely well in space. What they should of had was something along the lines of a flak cannon because the armor of the Zentran forces doesn't seem to be that strong. Additionally, anything that fires projectiles has infinite range in space so they could have engaged enemy pods with perfect accuracy as far as their sighting mechanisms would allow.

However, it was just a TV show so I cut it tons of breaks especially when it comes to hearing explosions in the middle of space. After all, if they fought realistically it would probably be boring to watch.

*If you are unaware of what the TROPHY system is, it was developed for tanks and helicopters which tracks incoming projectiles, shoots a classified particle beam at them which prematurely detonates the warhead. Obviously it only works on missiles and rockets. The system has gone through many successful test and should be implemented in the near future. They are also working on the TROPHY II system which is intended to stop all projectiles.

**I am in the military and I often participate in OPFOR which is basically laser-tag military style.

Edited June 30, 2006 by Mephistopheles

Mephistopheles · June 30, 2006

They need to get on the ball and start coming out with massive amounts of macross series/movies. They have so much material to work with...

409816[/snapback]

Personally I'd like to see them restart the series -- redo the orginal TV series and nothing more. The best way to ruin a series is by continually adding to it.

Other than that, I personally like 'What if' series if they do make additional ones.

Zinjo · June 30, 2006

OK,

Those who wish to masterbate over the mecha please get your own thread!!

The rest of us are trying to discuss fictional politics in the Macross Universe, not who's gun pod is bigger than whos... :rolleyes:

Thank you for your compliance.

Mods, please move or remove any further off topic posts to this thread, particularly the mecha centric ones responding to LowVisLurker.

Thanks

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Mephistopheles

Mephistopheles

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